Has CAP become an EMA?????

[flyguy06]

While at the Region Staff College I met members from all over. Mostly all I heard talk about was ES this and ES that and Operations that. I talked to one guy who said they interview new members and they require they get a MP, MO, MS or some ES track. Talked to another guy who said at their unit they automatically enroll them in ICS courses.

I mean everyone isnt interested in ES. I like ES, but if I never flew a SAR mission or got called up I would be ok. I didnt join CAP for ES. I joined to work and encourage young people to pursue careers in aviation.

There is a culture in CAP that is heavily law enforcement and emergency management. It seems to me like CAP is becomming more of a "volunteer fire department or volunteer emergency management agency" and less of an auxilary of a Armed Services.

There was a suggestion of going to polo shirts and cargo pants similar to what police officers and EMT's wear. Again, wanting to get away from the military look.

The culture  is changing and CAP will loose some good folks if this continues. Does anyone else see this?

[Rotorhead]

A large number of adults join CAP for the ES function. That's why we have Senior squadrons.

That does not mean we're less an aux of the USAF.

It's also not an excuse to go to golf shirts exclusively.

This culture, by the way, is not new.

[RiverAux]

Frankly, it is much easier to recruit adults for the standard CAP ES jobs than it is to recruit them specifically for cadet programs (or AE) work.  And lets be honest, a squadron does not need more than a handful of adults to run the cadet program while a squadron with a plane and aspirations to have a ground team probably needs 20-30 active members to be credible.  So, the recruiting demands to maintain an ES program are much higher than they are to maintain the cadet program. 

It seems to me like CAP is becomming more of a "volunteer fire department or volunteer emergency management agency" and less of an auxilary of a Armed Services.

There are very few missions that CAP is doing now that aren't similar, if not identical, to the same missions we've been doing since the organization was formed.

[Eclipse]

The culture  is changing and CAP will loose some good folks if this continues. Does anyone else see this?

Fly, you're seeing the "real" CAP.

A lot of senior members join specifically for the operational side and then get involved with cadets later (present company included).

The other thing is that folks willing to take a week off from their jobs, etc., are likely the more motivated
of our membership, with aspirations and involvement far beyond the unit level - those members are also
more likely to be fully involved with all facets of the programs, not just one side or the other.

For better or worse, you can pretty much jump in and out of the CP side of the house without a lot of preparation or understanding - not so with ES.  We have a lot of members that wear their non-involvement in ES as some kind of bizarre badge of honor, then complain when something like Katrina hits and they can't get involved.

Even if they never intend to don a reflective vest, getting new members exposed to ES day 1 insures they can't ever say they don't know or understand it.

[flyguy06]

well, it wasnt lke thatin 1985 when I was a cadet. maybe I just didnt see it. but I do remember about those days was that senior members didnt waer grey or maroon epulets. they wore metal rank on their blue uniforms. What i remember was we had a closer relationship with the USAF. We used to get rides on C-130's. We had unlimited access to USAF Bases. What I remember is that more cadets went into the USAF and more cadets learned to fly

So, maybe its not the organization it used to be, maybe its not for me anymore. These are the questions I have ask myself. What I also know is we hav a retntion issue we didnt have 20 years ago, So, you do the math as to why.

[Eclipse]

well, it wasnt lke thatin 1985 when I was a cadet. maybe I just didnt see it. but I do remember about those days was that senior members didnt waer grey or maroon epulets. they wore metal rank on their blue uniforms. What i remember was we had a closer relationship with the USAF. We used to get rides on C-130's. We had unlimited access to USAF Bases. What I remember is that more cadets went into the USAF and more cadets learned to fly

So, maybe its not the organization it used to be, maybe its not for me anymore. These are the questions I have ask myself. What I also know is we hav a retntion issue we didnt have 20 years ago, So, you do the math as to why.

Comparing today's CAP, or really much of any similar organization, public schools, or even the federal government or military to anything in 1985 is going to be fraught with peril.

The world has changed a lot in...carry the two...24 years, and moreso in a day on 911.

We have retention issues, but our operational nature is not the heart of them, if anything that's a retention tool.

[Rotorhead]

well, it wasnt lke thatin 1985 when I was a cadet. maybe I just didnt see it.

I think you didn't see it.

ES has been a very big part of CAP, even bigger than cadet programs, for a VERY long time.

[Major Carrales]

well, it wasnt lke thatin 1985 when I was a cadet. maybe I just didnt see it.

I think you didn't see it.

ES has been a very big part of CAP, even bigger than cadet programs, for a VERY long time.

Scott,

I would and to not see the Cadet and ES side as mutually exclusive.  I see them as two growing spheres within the same organization, and even more so, necessary to the continued viability of CAP to the outside world.

Cadets in our unit can and do participate in ES where they can.  In fact, the ES function is a viable and attractive extracurricular activity for them.   I can also point to CAP Ground Team made up of a majority of cadets, exercises and actual missions where COMMs has a high incidence of cadet participation.

CAP's ES function is one of the main things that retains many cadets, it allows them to participate in activities that are "real world" and somewhat "genuine."  In a world where a 16 year old is treated, from their perspective, as a second class citizen...being given "real" responsibilities towards a greater good is a character and citizenship building activity.  For many, its the first time in their life they are taken seriously by adults.  If executed correctly, that alone can do more for moral leadership than a 100 moral leadership lectures.

[RiverAux]

Cadets in our unit can and do participate in ES where they can.  In fact, the ES function is a viable and attractive extracurricular activity for them.   

I wouldn't have joined CAP as a cadet were it not for a friend of mine who was in it and was in on a missing aircraft find -- I joined almost immediately afterwards and of course we never had a mission the 2-3 years I was a cadet. 

[Rotorhead]

well, it wasnt lke thatin 1985 when I was a cadet. maybe I just didnt see it.

I think you didn't see it.

ES has been a very big part of CAP, even bigger than cadet programs, for a VERY long time.

Scott,

I would and to not see the Cadet and ES side as mutually exclusive.  I see them as two growing spheres within the same organization, and even more so, necessary to the continued viability of CAP to the outside world.

Cadets in our unit can and do participate in ES where they can.  In fact, the ES function is a viable and attractive extracurricular activity for them.   I can also point to CAP Ground Team made up of a majority of cadets, exercises and actual missions where COMMs has a high incidence of cadet participation.

CAP's ES function is one of the main things that retains many cadets, it allows them to participate in activities that are "real world" and somewhat "genuine."  In a world where a 16 year old is treated, from their perspective, as a second class citizen...being given "real" responsibilities towards a greater good is a character and citizenship building activity.  For many, its the first time in their life they are taken seriously by adults.  If executed correctly, that alone can do more for moral leadership than a 100 moral leadership lectures.

I agree with what you're saying.

I just don't agree with the idea that CAP "used to be" a cadet-focused organization, and now it is not.

[Major Carrales]

I agree with what you're saying.

I just don't agree with the idea that CAP "used to be" a cadet-focused organization, and now it is not.

It is hard for some folks to understand that CAP can be both.  We have three areas in which we are to focus, thus, 100% given on each one is the proper perspective.

ES and CP are the sorts of things that can be measured in numbers, like saves, resources and numbers of cadets moving through the system. AE is a different animal altogether.

I find it a specious argument when people make the disingenuous idea that adding to one area subtracts from the importance of another.     

[RiverAux]

AE most certainly could be measured:

Internally:
1.  # of seniors passing Yeager (this actually is tracked on the commander's dashboard function in eservices).
2.  #s of seniors completing AE specialty track levels

Externally:
1.  Outreach activitites completed
   a.  school visits
   b.  public presentations
   c.  articles
2.  # of AEMs
3.  # of aE workshops
4.  AE materials distributed
5.  NCASE attendence

[ZigZag911]

I have felt for a long time that all seniors and all cadet officers ought at least to complete GES training (which I think should be required for Level 1 or Mitchell), and, ideally, qualify as MSA.

My reasoning is that, especially in instances of natural disasters, folks come out of the woodwork wanting to help -- but it's too late at that point to take necessary training.

Maintaining currency as an MSA would require one mission every two years...not a heavy demand for ES involvement.

I also feel that every senior should earn the Yeager (perhaps as a requirement for Level 2 or 3), and become familiar with the cadet program.

Everyone has personal interests, and that's fine, but as one advances in rank & responsibility, a more thorough background in the total program should be expected.

[Hawk200]

I have felt for a long time that all seniors and all cadet officers ought at least to complete GES training (which I think should be required for Level 1 or Mitchell), and, ideally, qualify as MSA.

I would highly disagree with making it a requirement. Encourage, not require.

My reasoning is that, especially in instances of natural disasters, folks come out of the woodwork wanting to help -- but it's too late at that point to take necessary training.

Let people know up front when they join what would be needed to help out in those situations. Not telling them is a failure in the initial stages when they join. Make it absolutely clear that training is needed to be able to contribute.

I also feel that every senior should earn the Yeager (perhaps as a requirement for Level 2 or 3), and become familiar with the cadet program.

Same as above. Encourage, not require.

Everyone has personal interests, and that's fine, but as one advances in rank & responsibility, a more thorough background in the total program should be expected.

I think personal interests are important in recruiting. Forcing people into things in which they have no interest could be a problem. Not everyone wants to be everything in CAP. As the old saying goes, a jack of all trades is a master of none.

[Major Carrales]

AE most certainly could be measured:

Internally:
1.  # of seniors passing Yeager (this actually is tracked on the commander's dashboard function in eservices).
2.  #s of seniors completing AE specialty track levels

Externally:
1.  Outreach activitites completed
   a.  school visits
   b.  public presentations
   c.  articles
2.  # of AEMs
3.  # of aE workshops
4.  AE materials distributed
5.  NCASE attendence

I knew I could manipulate someone like yourself to provide the information I was lacking in my post en re AE. 

[Spike]

well, it wasn't lke thatin 1985 when I was a cadet. maybe I just didnt see it. but I do remember about those days was that senior members didnt waer grey or maroon epaulets. they wore metal rank on their blue uniforms. What i remember was we had a closer relationship with the USAF. We used to get rides on C-130's. We had unlimited access to USAF Bases. What I remember is that more cadets went into the USAF and more cadets learned to fly

hmmm......I meet at an AF Base and have open access to an Armed Forces Reserve Center as well as a Hangar at a county Airport.  We have an Aircraft in which Cadets learn to fly.  We have a AF Reservist assigned to our unit, we have a Base CAP Liaison Officer.  We just had a c-130 o-flight 2 weeks ago, and have 1 more mid August.  We visited the AF museum 7 months ago at Wright-Patterson on the AF's dime, and spent the weekend there with transportation back.  We have a 60% Enlistment/Commission rate, with a 35% college/ university attendance.  We have had (in the past 5 years) 14 Cadets go to a Military Academy.  I along with the majority of the Staff have military backgrounds.

We have Army/ AF/ Marine instructors come to meetings to give classes monthly.  We have access to the firing range in the Reserve Center.  We are going Rappelling in Sept with the army National Guard. 

How much more military do you want my Squadron??  We also are all in AF/ Corporate uniforms, and only wear Polo's when we have Senior Staff meetings once a month.

PLUS we have been accident free for the past 18 years. 

You know what else we do........Emergency Services.  It is a CAP mission.  We get $$ from the County and State to keep a trained team on the ready.

We are so liked, we were volunteering on base at the Air Wing HQ, Medical Squadron before VSAF was announced.  We serve lunch to the Local National Guard unit on Drill weekends, and we host a deployment picnic for those members that are set to deploy.

PLEASE don't think all CAP units (or even all of CAP) are not like what your remember.  Things have improved since your Cadet days.  Face it, the Senior Members that you fondly remember were the cause of our move to maroon then Grey epaulets.  It was during the 1980's that many things happened that caused changes in the 1990's.

In the end, CAP is just what it was, a awesome program mixed with Aerospace, Emergency Services and Cadet programs.  We are much more better off today than in the 1980's, 1990's or even 3 years ago         

[flyguy06]

well, it wasnt lke thatin 1985 when I was a cadet. maybe I just didnt see it. but I do remember about those days was that senior members didnt waer grey or maroon epulets. they wore metal rank on their blue uniforms. What i remember was we had a closer relationship with the USAF. We used to get rides on C-130's. We had unlimited access to USAF Bases. What I remember is that more cadets went into the USAF and more cadets learned to fly

So, maybe its not the organization it used to be, maybe its not for me anymore. These are the questions I have ask myself. What I also know is we hav a retntion issue we didnt have 20 years ago, So, you do the math as to why.

Comparing today's CAP, or really much of any similar organization, public schools, or even the federal government or military to anything in 1985 is going to be fraught with peril.

The world has changed a lot in...carry the two...24 years, and moreso in a day on 911.

We have retention issues, but our operational nature is not the heart of them, if anything that's a retention tool.

Depends on the audience you are trying to retain. if you are trying to retain firefighters and police officers and EMT's then yes, Todays operatiions would suffice. But if you are trying to retain military types. Not so much. I was approached a few weeks ago about joining the US cadet corps. They told me it was more military than CAP and a lot of CAP members were leaving and going over to that organization.  A lot of CAPers are apparently doing that.

[flyguy06]

well, it wasnt lke thatin 1985 when I was a cadet. maybe I just didnt see it.

I think you didn't see it.

ES has been a very big part of CAP, even bigger than cadet programs, for a VERY long time.

Scott,

I would and to not see the Cadet and ES side as mutually exclusive.  I see them as two growing spheres within the same organization, and even more so, necessary to the continued viability of CAP to the outside world.

Cadets in our unit can and do participate in ES where they can.  In fact, the ES function is a viable and attractive extracurricular activity for them.   I can also point to CAP Ground Team made up of a majority of cadets, exercises and actual missions where COMMs has a high incidence of cadet participation.

CAP's ES function is one of the main things that retains many cadets, it allows them to participate in activities that are "real world" and somewhat "genuine."  In a world where a 16 year old is treated, from their perspective, as a second class citizen...being given "real" responsibilities towards a greater good is a character and citizenship building activity.  For many, its the first time in their life they are taken seriously by adults.  If executed correctly, that alone can do more for moral leadership than a 100 moral leadership lectures.

Again, it depends on your audience. i work with kids in the inner city that have a great love for aviation. Now if I suggested to these kids that we go out to the woods and camp out and hike. They would have absolutely no interest. They are squarely focused on flying and becomming airline pilots. Nothing else.

[flyguy06]

well, it wasn't lke thatin 1985 when I was a cadet. maybe I just didnt see it. but I do remember about those days was that senior members didnt waer grey or maroon epaulets. they wore metal rank on their blue uniforms. What i remember was we had a closer relationship with the USAF. We used to get rides on C-130's. We had unlimited access to USAF Bases. What I remember is that more cadets went into the USAF and more cadets learned to fly

hmmm......I meet at an AF Base and have open access to an Armed Forces Reserve Center as well as a Hangar at a county Airport.  We have an Aircraft in which Cadets learn to fly.  We have a AF Reservist assigned to our unit, we have a Base CAP Liaison Officer.  We just had a c-130 o-flight 2 weeks ago, and have 1 more mid August.  We visited the AF museum 7 months ago at Wright-Patterson on the AF's dime, and spent the weekend there with transportation back.  We have a 60% Enlistment/Commission rate, with a 35% college/ university attendance.  We have had (in the past 5 years) 14 Cadets go to a Military Academy.  I along with the majority of the Staff have military backgrounds.

We have Army/ AF/ Marine instructors come to meetings to give classes monthly.  We have access to the firing range in the Reserve Center.  We are going Rappelling in Sept with the army National Guard. 

How much more military do you want my Squadron??  We also are all in AF/ Corporate uniforms, and only wear Polo's when we have Senior Staff meetings once a month.

PLUS we have been accident free for the past 18 years. 

You know what else we do........Emergency Services.  It is a CAP mission.  We get $$ from the County and State to keep a trained team on the ready.

We are so liked, we were volunteering on base at the Air Wing HQ, Medical Squadron before VSAF was announced.  We serve lunch to the Local National Guard unit on Drill weekends, and we host a deployment picnic for those members that are set to deploy.

PLEASE don't think all CAP units (or even all of CAP) are not like what your remember.  Things have improved since your Cadet days.  Face it, the Senior Members that you fondly remember were the cause of our move to maroon then Grey epaulets.  It was during the 1980's that many things happened that caused changes in the 1990's.

In the end, CAP is just what it was, a awesome program mixed with Aerospace, Emergency Services and Cadet programs.  We are much more better off today than in the 1980's, 1990's or even 3 years ago       

I am glad for your squasdron. I dont see that here very much.

Guys,

I am not suggesting that one mission be more than another one. they all need to be worked the same. What I am saying is the emphasis to me (based on other seniors I meet and based on the content of this very website) is a strong ES DHS CD focus. Yes, we did SAR  back in the day but it was SAR in support of the USAF not SAR and CD in support of DHS and FEMA. It was still Air Force Today we work for numerous alphabet agencies. Again we attracting the law enforcement and EMS types and not attracting the military types.

Also, dont misunderstand. i am not anti-ES. I am a MO, I am one checkride away from being a MP. I fly CD missions and I have an actual find under my belt. So no, I am not anti ES. I am just not wanting CAP to turn into a EMA. Many members want to keep it military and they will leave if it isnt.

[Major Carrales]

Depends on the audience you are trying to retain. if you are trying to retain firefighters and police officers and EMT's then yes, Todays operatiions would suffice. But if you are trying to retain military types. Not so much. I was approached a few weeks ago about joining the US cadet corps. They told me it was more military than CAP and a lot of CAP members were leaving and going over to that organization.  A lot of CAPers are apparently doing that.

I thought those people weren't trying to farm off our Cadets.  Where is that person, Lt Col Land?  If what you are saying is true, then I think I've got a bone to pick with him.

I don't follow your logic now.  You just said in a post that that the Intercity kids you work with have no interest in camping and hiking...only flying.  Why then would you pull your work out of CAP and into an organization that does not fly and that concentrates on the US Army which does encampments and teaches outdoor/wilderness survival?

Seems like you need to stay in CAP and reform it in your area to meet your needs.  Remember, all CAP is local.  That is why Squadron Commanders organize Unit activities and said activities are not planned at the Wing or National level.

Stick with it and chew back that frustration you probably get by reading about what people in other places are doing that doesn't seem to jive with the established realities of your squadron.  Just do what works and take what is good from everyone else and disgard what is irrelevant.