Should customs/courtesies and uniform wear be enforced?

[es_g0d]

You ARE wrong.  The flightsuit is NOT just for flying.  Its a utility uniform. 

Please re-read the preceding three sentences until they are clear.  Thank you.

[Eclipse]

You ARE wrong.  The flightsuit is NOT just for flying.  Its a utility uniform. 

By who's definition?  There's certainly no support in any of the texts that supports that assertion.

In fact, on the corporate side there is a flight suit (Nomex), and a utility jumpsuit (not Nomex).

[BuckeyeDEJ]

The Air Force allows rated folks to wear the FDU as a normal duty uniform, rather than impose the BDU on those people. Unlike in some CAP corners, the mothership doesn't say "you can only wear it while flying" to rated personnel -- but they say it to people like public affairs officers who don't have wings but may fly with their unit sometimes.

From AFI 36-2903 (emphasis mine):

3.2.  Aircrew Flight Dress Uniforms. (OPR: HQ USAF/A3) MAJCOMs or organizations requiring exception to Flight Dress Uniform (FDU) or aircrew Desert Flight Dress Uniform (DFDU) wear policy should submit Exception to Policy (ETP) request through MAJCOM channels to HQ USAF/A3OT.

3.2.1.  General. Personnel authorized wear of the aircrew FDU/DFDU will comply with this instruction, as well as applicable MAJCOM and installation supplements, regardless of AFSC or unit of assignment. 

3.2.1.1.  The FDU/DFDU is authorized for wear by; personnel assigned to a position identified with Aircrew Position Identifier (API) 1 thru 9 and A thru G (Rated Officers or Career Enlisted Aviators 1AXXX), Rated officers assigned to an API-0 positions that are on active aeronautical orders, or those personnel identified as Operations Support/Non-interference flyers currently on active aeronautical orders to perform inflight aircrew or parachutist duties IAW AFI 11-401, Aviation Management,  Atch 3, or as authorized in AS016.  Additionally, the FDU/DFDU is authorized for wear by personnel in the following Space/Missile Crew AFSCs 13SXA, 13SXB, 13SXC, 13SXD, 13SXE and 1C6XX.  Airmen authorized special articles of clothing under an allowance standard will wear the uniform prescribed by the local unit commander and recommended for the type of mission performed.  FDUs/DFDUs are authorized functional clothing for those authorized individuals performing flying, parachutist, space and missile crew duties:  Flight duty includes preparation, preflight, in-flight, post-flight, and other flight-related duties associated with aircraft operations.  Space operations duties will be defined by MAJCOM supplement to this instruction.

3.2.1.2.  Flight clothing worn by personnel not on aeronautical orders (authorized under AS016) is restricted to flight-related duties. These personnel may not wear flight clothing on days when actual flying is not planned/anticipated.  EXCEPTION: Space/Missile crew FDU/DFDU wear guidance will be outlined in MAJCOM supplements to this instruction.

3.2.1.3.  The FDU may be worn off base under the same guidelines as the Battle Dress Uniform  (BDU).

The FDU is the flight uniform. But it's more than that -- it's a symbol of a military flying organization. Heck, the FDU is a great recruiting tool. It's a great motivator for cadets, believe it or not, when it's worn by rated personnel on a more regular basis. It helps reinforce for them (and for seniors, and for non-CAP folks) that we're an aviation and Air Force-associated organization.

I'll bet the ban in some wings (at least one, anyway -- mine) is because some yahoo (or more than one) with unmitigated gall and poser's privilege wore an FDU in unauthorized fashion, and that someone's squadron commander apparently didn't enforce common sense. Instead of disciplining the bad actors, leaders take blanket actions. So we all lose out.

A few bad apples... a few bad apples.

(Also: Note paras 3.2 and 3.2.1, which say exceptions or additions to the Air Force's FDU directives must be shipped through channels to HQ USAF/A3 for approval. Just a little curious note there.)

[jb512]

I'm not arguing the fact that the flight suit is a uniform.....And I'm not anti-flight suit....If you're flying or going to be flying. This whole thing started when someone mentioned there were several members who show up to meeting in flight suits whether they're flying or not. I just think if you're not going to be flying, then show up in one of the "non-flying" uniforms, that's my whole point. And if you're going to be flying, ok, wear a flight suit, but wear a CAP flight suit.
  I could be wrong about Edwards and the whole Airbase thing as it was a long time ago, but then again, that's regular military (who wear uniforms all the time) and CAP isn't. Why would anyone show up to a meeting in a flight suit if they're not going to be flying?

I was going to leave this alone since it wasn't going anywhere but now it's bugging me again.

Yes, you apparently are anti-flight suit.  You keep saying over and over again that people should not wear flight suits unless they are flying or going to fly.  You want people to show up in a "non-flying" uniform if that is the case yet you don't seem to be advocating that people show up in "non-ground teaming", "non-communicating", "non-administrating" uniforms if they are not performing those functions.

The flight suit is just another approved uniform for aircrew members, nothing more, nothing less.  Cites have been provided to show how the military views the flight suit by its members who have aeronautical orders.  It shouldn't be so hard to see the similarity to CAP.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

The flight suit is just another approved uniform for aircrew members, nothing more, nothing less.  Cites have been provided to show how the military views the flight suit by its members who have aeronautical orders.  It shouldn't be so hard to see the similarity to CAP.

There was a time I could see "two Civil Air Patrols," the aviators and those who aren't. But I think I saw that more from the non-aviator side. I now see the "two Civil Air Patrols" as...

... those who are DDR officers and those who aren't.

Seriously, if you see "two" CAPs, it's not anyone's fault but your own, and you're a one-dimensional member. Get involved and see how things work together. If you have a problem with aviators (that's pilots and observers) occasionally wearing the FDU when they're not flying, it may reflect your own issues. They wear specialized uniforms, flame-retardant and all-covering for protective reasons, just as ground teams don't wear blues in the field and out-of-shape members wear (cough) golf shirts.

If you think aviators flaunt their "status" by wearing a flight suit, what about the ground-pounders who proudly wear the BDU over anything else? Or the honor-guard cadets who love those bib scarves and are inseparable from a parade rifle? Come on, already. 

Those who seek that status by being a drug-store cowboy should be penalized, not the rest of us -- they're probably dangers in other ways, not just in seeking affirmation by wearing a uniform in an unauthorized manner.

[DG]

  I could be wrong about Edwards and the whole Airbase thing as it was a long time ago, but then again, that's regular military (who wear uniforms all the time) and CAP isn't. Why would anyone show up to a meeting in a flight suit if they're not going to be flying?

Rob Sherlin,

Do I have it right that you are in New York Wing?

If you would like, I believe I could line up a mentor for you.

[ßτε]

It is a valid interpretation of CAPM 39-1 that you would wear the flightsuit only when performing duties related to flying. It states that it is for Flight Crews members only. It is reasonable to interpret that as when one is performing duties as a flight crew member, you may wear the flightsuit, but if you are performing duties as an administrative officer, for instance, you would wear another uniform.

It is irrelevant what the USAF does in this instance since AFI 36-2903 does not apply to CAP. Our directive is CAPM 39-1.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

It is a valid interpretation of CAPM 39-1 that you would wear the flightsuit only when performing duties related to flying. It states that it is for Flight Crews members only. It is reasonable to interpret that as when one is performing duties as a flight crew member, you may wear the flightsuit, but if you are performing duties as an administrative officer, for instance, you would wear another uniform.

It is irrelevant what the USAF does in this instance since AFI 36-2903 does not apply to CAP. Our directive is CAPM 39-1.

There is no stipulation in CAPM 39-1 that flight suits only be worn for flying-specific activities, but there is a stipulation that it is for flight crew members only (and that stipulation is only found in the heading at the bottom of page 34).

I would contend that since CAPM 39-1 is so full of gaps, it would benefit every member to read AFI 36-2903. Especially since we wear the Air Force's uniform. Such things are found there that are NOT in CAP regulations:

1.3.  Individuals' Responsibilities.
1.3.1.  To present a professional military image individual will:
1.3.1.1.  Procure and maintain all mandatory clothing items.
1.3.1.2.  Review and follow local supplements and procedures.
1.3.1.3.  Uniforms will be neat, clean, pressed, buttoned, and properly maintained.
1.3.2.  Members will not:
1.3.2.1.  Stand or walk with hands in pockets of any uniform combination, other than to insert or remove items.
1.3.2.2.  Walk in uniform while using cell phones, radios, hands-free headsets unless required in the performance of official duties using a government issued device.   
1.3.2.3.  Smoke/use smokeless tobaccos, drink, or eat while walking in uniform. 

Many of these things are not codified in CAP regulations, but instead are part of an oral tradition passed down in CAP and infused with the knowledge of former military personnel. If we didn't have those things to save us, and only had to depend on CAPM 39-1, the Air Force would've yanked its uniforms from CAP years ago, probably out of sheer embarrassment at how shoddy some of us would look (and you think some members look bad now?).

Or how about...

NOTES:
1. Uniform clothing may be altered to improve fit.  However, alterations must not change the intended appearance of garment as designed.
2. The omission of a specific item or appearance standard does not automatically permit its wear.
3. If it is not authorized; it is not authorized for wear.

I think I'd rather see CAP adopt the Air Force instruction straight-up and add a supplement addressing CAP-specific uniforms and uniform items. It'd save a lot of wheel-reinventing.

[MIKE]

This one has drifted well outside the scope of the original topic.

[SarDragon]

I just wear my golf shirt under my flightsuit- keeps all the bases covered.   Plus that way I can wear a flightsuit and pop my collar.

Synthetic fabrics are far from a wise choice for wear under Nomex. You are seriously compromising the protection capabilities of the garment. [possible sarcasm noted]

[Major Carrales]

I just wear my golf shirt under my flightsuit- keeps all the bases covered.   Plus that way I can wear a flightsuit and pop my collar.

Synthetic fabrics are far from a wise choice for wear under Nomex. You are seriously compromising the protection capabilities of the garment. [possible sarcasm noted]

You know, if CAP cockpits are suddently "bursting into flames" needing a fire resistant suit...then it make no sense to allow any other types of uniform (golf shirt, blues, BDUs et al) to be worn at all.

I'm just pointing out this odd duality.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

But even if the cockpit bursts into flames, I believe customs and courtesies must be followed. Or at least the proper protocols of having the PIC lead the crew in bailout procedures, regardless of his grade.

(See, Mike? I'm helping steer back on topic.)   

[jb512]

I just wear my golf shirt under my flightsuit- keeps all the bases covered.   Plus that way I can wear a flightsuit and pop my collar.

Synthetic fabrics are far from a wise choice for wear under Nomex. You are seriously compromising the protection capabilities of the garment. [possible sarcasm noted]

You know, if CAP cockpits are suddently "bursting into flames" needing a fire resistant suit...then it make no sense to allow any other types of uniform (golf shirt, blues, BDUs et al) to be worn at all.

I'm just pointing out this odd duality.

The only odd duality I'm seeing is how some people can't equate duty uniforms.

CAP cockpits as well as other aircraft cockpits don't spontaneously burst into flames, but there are several other in-flight or ground emergencies where nomex would be beneficial at some point.  It's kinda like cops wearing ballistic vests where you may not be hit in that spot but it sure helps if you are.

Customs and courtesies should be observed when wearing any uniform including the flight suit when discussing the topic of the thread...

[PHall]

I just wear my golf shirt under my flightsuit- keeps all the bases covered.   Plus that way I can wear a flightsuit and pop my collar.

Synthetic fabrics are far from a wise choice for wear under Nomex. You are seriously compromising the protection capabilities of the garment. [possible sarcasm noted]

You know, if CAP cockpits are suddently "bursting into flames" needing a fire resistant suit...then it make no sense to allow any other types of uniform (golf shirt, blues, BDUs et al) to be worn at all.

I'm just pointing out this odd duality.

And in some places, like CAWG, you can not fly powered aircraft in anything other then a nomex flight suit.
Exceptions being CN missions where the customer specifically requests "no uniforms'.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

I believe a black T-shirt is regulation under the Air Force flight suit. If CAPM 39-1 doesn't stipulate (and it probably doesn't, as haphazard as it's written and presented), AFI 36-2903 says so.

An earlier poster said the golf shirt he wears under the flight suit, he can turn the collar up. No, no, no golf shirt underneath. Get the CAP scarf and you'll do just as well, if not better, plus buy into an Air Force tradition.

And yes, customs and courtesies must be observed at all times in the flight-duty uniform, as well as in the other Air Force uniforms. The uniform is a symbol of our nation -- not just a personal statement of service. Respect the uniform as though you were wearing the flag. And part of that respect is showing proper respect to military tradition through customs and courtesies.

Proper customs and courtesies and proper uniform wear are bedrock disciplines. If you can't do either right, how do I know you won't cut corners when it comes to something affecting the mission at hand? How do I know you won't embellish or disregard an order?

[Short Field]

^^^Hint:  AFIs apply to Air Force personnel - not CAP.

The biggest issue with enforcing customs/courtesies and uniform wear is defining what is proper customs/courtesies and uniform wear.  CAP sure hasn't done it. 

[Eclipse]

I believe a black T-shirt is regulation under the Air Force flight suit. If CAPM 39-1 doesn't stipulate (and it probably doesn't, as haphazard as it's written and presented), AFI 36-2903 says so.

Undergarments - White, black or brown T-shirts are authorized.

[Always Ready]

Climbnsink was clearly joking about wearing the polo under the flight suit. Seriously guys and gals lighten up!

Let me try to rephrase the terminology being used. We should respect each other no matter the type of clothes we wear.

Does that work for everyone? Or do some of you enjoy being disrespected?

[Rob Sherlin]

 I'm sorry you think I'm anti-flightsuit (eventually, I plan on wearing one too).

It seems to be that what should be done is....The commanding officer should state what uniforms to wear at certain meetings. If there's no flying going on, have everyone wear something else. I would tend to choose more to....If I'm flying, I wear a flight suit....If it's field work or outdoor training, my BDU's...If it's indoor class, my Blues/CSU...Dress for dress... Jumpsuit for utility, etc.

  And yes, it probably is the few "bad apples" stated in that one post that makes me feel this way. But, it's always those few "bad apples" (whether it be in the military, society, or volunteer organization)  that cause a lot rules to be made and forced upon everybody. And it should be dealt with before it gets that far....Thus getting back to the original topic....Wear the correct uniform for a function, and wear it right.

[es_g0d]

I find it interesting, and even a little heartwarming, that the majority of the forum agrees (!) regarding the flightsuit.  I was honestly pretty frustrated when I made my previous post.  So thank you, true believers!

Even more interesting is that many individuals have noted obvious lack of clarity in our Civil Air Patrol body of guidance, in this case CAPR 39-1.  And in that void, many are looking to similar Air Force guidance.  While Air Force regulations are not binding on CAP members, they do provide a good reference.  In some cases, CAP has adopted Air Force guidance verbatim: Drill and Ceremonies is an excellent example.

In truth, though, this is unfortunate.  Why couldn't AFI 36-2903 have a chapter entitled, "Civil Air Patrol Uniforms," and incorporate its auxiliary throughout the regulation?  This would provide a lot of milage both for the regular Air Force and the Civil Air Patrol.  Customs, courtesies, and just plain general knowledge throughout all components of the service (active, reserve, guard, auxiliary) couldn't help but to be improved.  Enforcement begins with knowledge.

(PS I'm wearing a flightsuit as I write this ... and yes, I did just finish a flight-related activity: FLYING!)