What type of military status is cap?

[RiverAux]

If there is ever a time of need (major earthquake, wildfires, Cylon attack, whatever)

According to the BG season premier, we're actually all Cylons anyway....

[wuzafuzz]

Kind of like the movie Independence Day (1996)?  No doubt in my mind America, as a whole, would stand up and fight.

Sure.  Unless it was more like the Twilight Zone episode "To Serve Man."  ;-)  Then we'd all stand up for our "O-Flights" not knowing they weren't quite what we thought.

Let the debate continue!  In the meantime, keep volunteering and preparing for the missions we are likely to be called for.  Be darn good at it.  There is enough honor in that to go around.

[JohnKachenmeister]

[
I'm disturbed by those who say if called upon, they'd quit.  Those folks need to find another organization that wears their golf shirts once a week.  Disturbing at best.

Gunner

I'm disturbed by the idea that there are people in this organization who contemplate a time when CAP could achieve glory in battle.

The organization I joined doesn't include that kind of philosophy in its charter. I joined to promote the goals listed therein.

Just because I don't agree with the arguments made in this thread does not diminish my ability to help Civil Air Patrol meet those goals. 

What "Arguments" have been going on?  All I have done is point out facts.  The fact is that we are not a "Civilian SAR organization."  We were organized in 1941 to support the war effort of the United States.  We were re-established in 1948 to support the "Non-combat missions and programs of the Air Force."  SAR isn't mentioned anywhere.  SAR is one of several missions currently given to CAP by the USAF.  This is not an opinion, it is a fact.  We can and do perform various combat support tasks for the Air Force.  Again, this is not an opinion, this is a fact.

If you choose not to recognize these facts, and insist in believing a fantasy that we are some sort of flying humanitarian organization that is, in your words, "Supported by the Air Force," then such fantasies are beyond my capability to address.  The fact is that WE support the Air Force, not vice-versa.  They equip and fund us to perform THEIR missions.  They AUTHORIZE us to use the equipment is support of state and local governments only to the extent that it does not impact on their missions.

[Flying Pig]

[
I'm disturbed by those who say if called upon, they'd quit.  Those folks need to find another organization that wears their golf shirts once a week.  Disturbing at best.

Gunner

I'm disturbed by the idea that there are people in this organization who contemplate a time when CAP could achieve glory in battle.

The organization I joined doesn't include that kind of philosophy in its charter. I joined to promote the goals listed therein.

Just because I don't agree with the arguments made in this thread does not diminish my ability to help Civil Air Patrol meet those goals. 

What "Arguments" have been going on?  All I have done is point out facts.  The fact is that we are not a "Civilian SAR organization."  We were organized in 1941 to support the war effort of the United States.  We were re-established in 1948 to support the "Non-combat missions and programs of the Air Force."  SAR isn't mentioned anywhere.  SAR is one of several missions currently given to CAP by the USAF.  This is not an opinion, it is a fact.  We can and do perform various combat support tasks for the Air Force.  Again, this is not an opinion, this is a fact.

If you choose not to recognize these facts, and insist in believing a fantasy that we are some sort of flying humanitarian organization that is, in your words, "Supported by the Air Force," then such fantasies are beyond my capability to address.  The fact is that WE support the Air Force, not vice-versa.  They equip and fund us to perform THEIR missions.  They AUTHORIZE us to use the equipment is support of state and local governments only to the extent that it does not impact on their missions.

Id say believing that CAP is ANYTHING like what we were in 1941 is believing in fantasy.  Those days are long over.  It doesnt matter what some paper says in the basement of CAP NHQ.  Its gone.  We are a civilian SAR organization.  You can bark all you want that we wont be able to find that in Print, but all I have to do is look at the CAWG 2009 activities calendar to tell you we are now a civilian SAR organization.

[RiverAux]

I guess current fedeal law doesn't count?  I'm with Kach on this one.  SAR isn't specifically mentioned in any of the official purposes of our organization and is only a subcategory of one of our named purposes and only because the AF funds us to do this mission for them.  If the AF decided that the SAR tasks assigned to them could be done better in a different way, we'd be mostly out of business as we would only get the SAR missions that local and state agencies are willing to pay our gas bills for -- which aren't many. 

Heck, in many states I'lll bet that you find that we fly many more hours of law enforcement support in the form of CD missions than we do on actual SAR missions.  I know thats the case in my state. 

And like it or not, CAP has continued to perform direct support of training and other missions for the AF (other than SAR) for the entire history of our organization.  Granted, they've not been the major part of our program, but they're there.  This doesn't make us a law enforcement organization any more than helping the AF train for combat makes us a combat organization.  We're a very strange hybrid that is a little bit of everything.  

[Flying Pig]

But, as a uniformed force that performs missions for the Air Force, to include combat support missions, we are not purely "Civilian."  Nor are we "Military."

That then, brings me back to the orignal comment I posted in this thread, that CAP is a unique blend of civilian and military that cannot be compared to any other force in any country that I am aware of.  To define us as "Civilian" is inaccurate, and it is clear that we do not meet the customary definition of "Military."

John

Every one of your points throughout this discussion have been on the mark.  Those who don't understand LOLW won't understand the nuances of them.  You are correct - if the US were invaded and were were fighting on the borders, CAP would be there flying support missions.  Probably not the WW2 types, but those that would be needed to free up our limited combat assets.  If we were shot down by bad guys in friendly territory, we would be combatants (of course, they wouldn't follow the LOLW - they'd just shoot us).

I'm disturbed by those who say if called upon, they'd quit.  Those folks need to find another organization that wears their golf shirts once a week.  Disturbing at best.

Gunner

I wouldnt QUIT..Id quit CAP and go where they hand out guns.  I think its funny that we are actually insulting members who would chose not to "go to war with CAP".  Would we be like the Thunderbirds where all of our red white and blue aircraft would be painted a dull grey and redeployed within 72 hours?

Second....I cant believe I dont have anything else better to do right now? 

[Always Ready]

Id say believing that CAP is ANYTHING like what we were in 1941 is believing in fantasy.  Those days are long over.  It doesnt matter what some paper says in the basement of CAP NHQ.  Its gone.  We are a civilian SAR organization.  You can bark all you want that we wont be able to find that in Print, but all I have to do is look at the CAWG 2009 activities calendar to tell you we are now a civilian SAR organization.

No offense, but I'd say that you need to venture out of CAWG for a bit. There are some wings that may only have three Wing-level SAREXs a year and may only have three real world SAR-anything a year (NEWG is/was a prime example). The fact of the matter is that if the AF decided tomorrow to cut our SAR mission out, they could and would. Our primary mission is to do what the AF tells us to do.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I am not speaking, Robert, of the missions of any particular Wing.  I am speaking of CAP generally.  IF you accept the misconception that CAP is a civilian SAR organization, then how to you reconcile that identity with the VSAF program, with ferrying repair parts for the USAF, with our chaplains providing service to the USAF, and all the other things CAP does that have nothing to do with SAR?

So, lets follow logically to identify exactly what status CAP finds itself in.

Scenario:  A USAF C-17 is carrying Army troops to Afghanistan.  A fault indicator on the panel causes the pilot to make a precautionary landing at Atlantic City, NJ.  An inspection indicates a cracked left veebilfitzer actuator link.  The nearest replacement veebilfitzer actuator link is located at Dover AFB, Del.  A CAP plane is dispatched to fly the part up to ACY so that the C-17 can continue its mission.  The AF directs the CAP to fly this, pays the gas, and the mission is listed in WMIRS as "Other AF Mission."  Within a matter of hours the part is delivered, changed, and the flight proceeds to Kabul without further incident.

Now, lets ask ourselves some questions:

1.  Is this a possible CAP mission?             YES.

2.  Does this mission have anything at all to do with SAR?        NO

3.  Is this a combat mission?                       NO

4.  Even though this is not combat, does accomplishing this mission further the war effort of the United States?                     YES

5.  Does this mission allow a CAP member to achieve some sort of battlefield glory?                        MAYBE, DEPENDING UPON HIS PERSPECTIVE

6.  Does this mission mean that CAP is fighting the war in Afghanistan?                             YES, INDIRECTLY.

7. Does this mission mean CAP is a "Combatant" under the Geneva Convention?                                           YES

I have said that CAP is neither a purely civilian SAR organization, like Equisearch, and that CAP is not purely military, but is rather a unique blend of both that defies comparison to other groups.

[RiverAux]

I'm disturbed by those who say if called upon, they'd quit.  Those folks need to find another organization that wears their golf shirts once a week.  Disturbing at best.

To be fair, the original comment was that we don't have the training to do some of the tasks that had been suggested and that they would quit without that.  Thats actually a sensible opinion as to do anything without the proper training isn't very bright.  However, I think they were wrong in to assume that CAP wouldn't get that training if the AF decided to assign us those tasks.  I'm sure it would be a package deal.  

Id say believing that CAP is ANYTHING like what we were in 1941 is believing in fantasy.  Those days are long over.

Actually, there is very little difference between the CAP of WWII and today.  Most CAP members in WWII were either in the cadet program or performing the exact type of disaster relief and SAR missions we do today.  While we're no longer carrying bombs, we're still occassionally providing aerial targets for air defense systems, patrolling along the southern border, participating in military training exercises, and carrying around military equipment.   

[Flying Pig]

Maybe some of you should venture to CAWG instead of me coming to you where it seems I might be doing a lot of sitting around.  
 But you have to admit, our primary mission right now is SAR.  To bad other wings do get to do much.  But at least in CAWG, its SAR and CD.  I think as of right now, we have a number of SAREX's and 3 Mountain search courses planned already.

Go to www.cawg.cap.gov   You could literally be busy every weekend.  I know many of our cities have more people than some states, but I cant help that. I would think if there were other states the same size as CA their calendars would look similar to ours.
I am glad to see we got away from this argument about calling for close air support on the Mexican Border because that talk was pretty juvenile.

[JohnKachenmeister]

But, as a uniformed force that performs missions for the Air Force, to include combat support missions, we are not purely "Civilian."  Nor are we "Military."

That then, brings me back to the orignal comment I posted in this thread, that CAP is a unique blend of civilian and military that cannot be compared to any other force in any country that I am aware of.  To define us as "Civilian" is inaccurate, and it is clear that we do not meet the customary definition of "Military."

John

Every one of your points throughout this discussion have been on the mark.  Those who don't understand LOLW won't understand the nuances of them.  You are correct - if the US were invaded and were were fighting on the borders, CAP would be there flying support missions.  Probably not the WW2 types, but those that would be needed to free up our limited combat assets.  If we were shot down by bad guys in friendly territory, we would be combatants (of course, they wouldn't follow the LOLW - they'd just shoot us).

I'm disturbed by those who say if called upon, they'd quit.  Those folks need to find another organization that wears their golf shirts once a week.  Disturbing at best.

Gunner

I wouldnt QUIT..Id quit CAP and go where they hand out guns.  I think its funny that we are actually insulting members who would chose not to "go to war with CAP".  Would we be like the Thunderbirds where all of our red white and blue aircraft would be painted a dull grey and redeployed within 72 hours?

Second....I cant believe I dont have anything else better to do right now? 

After 9/11, there WAS a discussion that CAP be armed, and assume the duties of securing general aviation airports.  This discussion never got past the talking stage, because the costs of training, equipping, and deploying CAP officers on that mission over the thousands of airports nationwide was deemed to be far out of proportion to the threat.

That is the closest we have come to being an armed combat asset since 1945.

It is noteworthy only because the decision was based on a cost-benefit analysis, not on the fact that some members of CAP consider themselves to be the aviation equivalent of Mother Teresa, and may be averse to combat and the bearing of arms under our flag.

[RiverAux]

the duties of securing general aviation airports

another thing we did at some airports during WWII. (on a very short-term and apparently local basis, at least from the info I've got). 

[Flying Pig]

But, as a uniformed force that performs missions for the Air Force, to include combat support missions, we are not purely "Civilian."  Nor are we "Military."

That then, brings me back to the orignal comment I posted in this thread, that CAP is a unique blend of civilian and military that cannot be compared to any other force in any country that I am aware of.  To define us as "Civilian" is inaccurate, and it is clear that we do not meet the customary definition of "Military."

John

Every one of your points throughout this discussion have been on the mark.  Those who don't understand LOLW won't understand the nuances of them.  You are correct - if the US were invaded and were were fighting on the borders, CAP would be there flying support missions.  Probably not the WW2 types, but those that would be needed to free up our limited combat assets.  If we were shot down by bad guys in friendly territory, we would be combatants (of course, they wouldn't follow the LOLW - they'd just shoot us).

I'm disturbed by those who say if called upon, they'd quit.  Those folks need to find another organization that wears their golf shirts once a week.  Disturbing at best.

Gunner

I wouldnt QUIT..Id quit CAP and go where they hand out guns.  I think its funny that we are actually insulting members who would chose not to "go to war with CAP".  Would we be like the Thunderbirds where all of our red white and blue aircraft would be painted a dull grey and redeployed within 72 hours?

Second....I cant believe I dont have anything else better to do right now? 

After 9/11, there WAS a discussion that CAP be armed, and assume the duties of securing general aviation airports.  This discussion never got past the talking stage, because the costs of training, equipping, and deploying CAP officers on that mission over the thousands of airports nationwide was deemed to be far out of proportion to the threat.

That is the closest we have come to being an armed combat asset since 1945.

It is noteworthy only because the decision was based on a cost-benefit analysis, not on the fact that some members of CAP consider themselves to be the aviation equivalent of Mother Teresa, and may be averse to combat and the bearing of arms under our flag.

;DYeah right.    Please....tell me where that discussion happened?  Between a couple of Senior Members at a local airport restaurant?  C'mon Jack....you know that was pure fantasy on the part of the genius who brought that up.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Maybe some of you should venture to CAWG instead of me coming to you where it seems I might be doing a lot of sitting around.  
 But you have to admit, our primary mission right now is SAR.  To bad other wings do get to do much.  But at least in CAWG, its SAR and CD.  I think as of right now, we have a number of SAREX's and 3 Mountain search courses planned already.

Go to www.cawg.cap.gov   You could literally be busy every weekend.  I know many of our cities have more people than some states, but I cant help that. I would think if there were other states the same size as CA their calendars would look similar to ours.
I am glad to see we got away from this argument about calling for close air support on the Mexican Border because that talk was pretty juvenile.

Yes, I will grant you that SAR is a principal mission and that most of our training is oriented to SAR.  But saying that such a situation makes us a "Civilian SAR agency" is like saying the the Marines are a "Ceremonial guard organization" for the Navy and State Department.

[Always Ready]

Maybe some of you should venture to CAWG instead of me coming to you where it seems I might be doing a lot of sitting around.  

 But you have to admit, our primary mission right now is SAR.  To bad other wings do get to do much.  But at least in CAWG, its SAR and CD.  I think as of right now, we have a number of SAREX's and 3 Mountain search courses planned already.

There are other things to do in CAP other than SAR...Cadet Programs, AE , Comm (which doesn't exist just for SAR), aerial recon, and CD (props to you for mentioning it). We are a very well rounded organization and do a lot of good. Some of our missions are more popular in other areas. If you are just focused on SAR you need to try some of the other CAP missions on for size. You may be surprised at how much they effect the community, state, and nation.

Edit: I just noticed you were a pilot...them pilots are all the same. Fly, Fly, Fly. Just kidding! 

[JohnKachenmeister]

But, as a uniformed force that performs missions for the Air Force, to include combat support missions, we are not purely "Civilian."  Nor are we "Military."

That then, brings me back to the orignal comment I posted in this thread, that CAP is a unique blend of civilian and military that cannot be compared to any other force in any country that I am aware of.  To define us as "Civilian" is inaccurate, and it is clear that we do not meet the customary definition of "Military."

John

Every one of your points throughout this discussion have been on the mark.  Those who don't understand LOLW won't understand the nuances of them.  You are correct - if the US were invaded and were were fighting on the borders, CAP would be there flying support missions.  Probably not the WW2 types, but those that would be needed to free up our limited combat assets.  If we were shot down by bad guys in friendly territory, we would be combatants (of course, they wouldn't follow the LOLW - they'd just shoot us).

I'm disturbed by those who say if called upon, they'd quit.  Those folks need to find another organization that wears their golf shirts once a week.  Disturbing at best.

Gunner

I wouldnt QUIT..Id quit CAP and go where they hand out guns.  I think its funny that we are actually insulting members who would chose not to "go to war with CAP".  Would we be like the Thunderbirds where all of our red white and blue aircraft would be painted a dull grey and redeployed within 72 hours?

Second....I cant believe I dont have anything else better to do right now? 

After 9/11, there WAS a discussion that CAP be armed, and assume the duties of securing general aviation airports.  This discussion never got past the talking stage, because the costs of training, equipping, and deploying CAP officers on that mission over the thousands of airports nationwide was deemed to be far out of proportion to the threat.

That is the closest we have come to being an armed combat asset since 1945.

It is noteworthy only because the decision was based on a cost-benefit analysis, not on the fact that some members of CAP consider themselves to be the aviation equivalent of Mother Teresa, and may be averse to combat and the bearing of arms under our flag.

;DYeah right.    Please....tell me where that discussion happened?  Between a couple of Senior Members at a local airport restaurant?  C'mon Jack....you know that was pure fantasy on the part of the genius who brought that up.

Well, if it was a discussion between "A couple of senior members" one of them was a Wing Commander, and the discussion took place at NHQ.  I was told that they went as far as running the training and associated personnel costs, and reporting those costs through CAP-USAF to the Pentagon.  The costs were enormous, and DID involve per diem for members, both in training and while deployed.

[Flying Pig]

Maybe some of you should venture to CAWG instead of me coming to you where it seems I might be doing a lot of sitting around.  

 But you have to admit, our primary mission right now is SAR.  To bad other wings do get to do much.  But at least in CAWG, its SAR and CD.  I think as of right now, we have a number of SAREX's and 3 Mountain search courses planned already.

There are other things to do in CAP other than SAR...Cadet Programs, AE , Comm (which doesn't exist just for SAR), aerial recon, and CD (props to you for mentioning it). We are a very well rounded organization and do a lot of good. Some of our missions are more popular in other areas. If you are just focused on SAR you need to try some of the other CAP missions on for size. You may be surprised at how much they effect the community, state, and nation.

Edit: I just noticed you were a pilot...them pilots are all the same. Fly, Fly, Fly. Just kidding! 

Oh really?  Maybe you'll also notice that I am a Sq. Commander with one of the largest cadet programs in the group, and for central California.  We also have one of the largest gatherings of new Seniors.  I was a cadet from age 12-18, then later came back and served as DCC for 5 years before taking on this role as Sq. Commander.  I have been in CAP for 20 years and have been a pilot for all of about 2 of those years in CAP.  I have been to NCC 3 times as well as just about every other cadet activity in the Wing.  So lets stop with the stereotypes because they get old.  Trust me, I know what CAP does.

As for the armed CAP issue.  Just what I thought....a couple of Senior Members with delusions of grandure. Jack, by chance were any of them even cops or even possess a security background?  There we go....let me volunteer to be the local armed CAP volunteer security guard at the grass strip.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Dang, Robert... Do you even READ any of these posts?

You lit that last fellow up like the Las Vegas strip and he said "Just kidding" and put a bunch of little devils on there!

You concluded that the discussion of CAP armed defense of airfields was informal, when I indicated that it was not.

No, I don't know if anyone involved in the discussion was a cop, but I do know that training costs were part of the cost package figured into the estimate.  I think we can presume that the training involved more than a famfire on the range.  As I said, the costs were deemed to be too high when compared to the relatively low threat.

[Short Field]

They are civilians accompanying an armed force in the field.  They are subject to the UCMJ.  They are considered to be legitimate targets by the Geneva Convention, and they are entitled to treatment as prisoners of war if captured.

No, they were not covered by the UCMJ.  They were civilians hired by GTE to maintain the phone/data network in a county other than the USA.   By your defininitoin, Blackwater and the other private security companies in Iraq are subject the UCMJ, are legitmate targets by the Geneva Convention, and are entitiled to treatment as prisoners of war.

[D2SK]

After 9/11, there WAS a discussion that CAP be armed, and assume the duties of securing general aviation airports.  This discussion never got past the talking stage, because the costs of training, equipping, and deploying CAP officers on that mission over the thousands of airports nationwide was deemed to be far out of proportion to the threat.

There was this one time, at band camp...Assuming this happened outside of your own basement, it never got past the TALKING stage because it's absurd.

That is the closest we have come to being an armed combat asset since 1945.

Maybe we will hit the trifecta again!