What type of military status is cap?

[JohnKachenmeister]

Assume Mexico invaded the southwestern United States as a part of "La Reconquista."  What you have just told me is that you would refuse to search for an A-10 driver who bailed out after being hit by ground fire.

I don't think it would make any sense at all for unarmed light civilian aircraft to be used for that mission.

We already have SAR units in the RM that are prepared to deal with the fact that enemy combatants don't hesitate to fire on rescuers. They can fire back, for starters.

We're not prepared in any way for that mission.

Your scenario is very romantic--CAP volunteers to the rescue!--- but you can't rescue anyone if you get killed on the way to the scene.

Obviously, you were not in the Vietnam War.

O-2 Cessna Skymasters, or similar unarmed light civilian aircraft were used for Combat SAR and FAC throughout the war.  Tactics were developed to protect the SAR/FAC aircraft which, when properly applied, discouraged the enemy from firing on them.  

I do not agree with the statement that "We are not prepared in any way" for such a mission.  Actually, most of the training needed for CSAR and FAC has already been accomplished.  All that would be needed is to brief MP's on specific evasive tactics and to train MO's on establishment of a 400-meter bracket with field artillery and adjusting fire from that reference.  Calling in TAC Air would require some additional training with respect to target identification and location.  This is nothing our aircrews could not handle.  With the right assets this training would take from 2 days to maybe a week for really high proficiency.

Not gonna happen, but for you to make such perjorative statements without the required knowledge is rather offensive to me.  

Anyway, what are you worried about?  You will be back delivering Bibles to the loincloth-clad natives in the Amazon.   

[Flying Pig]

Yes they did.  But they dont do that anymore.  Those tactics were still being developed and are no longer used.  They were discouraged from firing on the observations planes because they knew what was coming behind them.  Until we get a Forward Air Controller/Artillery Specialty Track.   John....Are you really hinting that CAP aircrews could be trained to call in indirect fire and Air?  Having been a Forward Observer, and having had the experience (training) in calling in Close Air Support and Artillery, I can ASSURE you it takes a lot longer than 2 days to a week to learn.

Exactly what training have we already accomplished to prepare us for FAC and CAS???  As an 8 year Infantryman/Instructor, Im not seeing it.

[heliodoc]

Thanks for your service, John

But  aircrewmember in helos which is different and I do know some O-2/ 337 drivers...

Where is this training "gonna" happen?/ Hell its Guard AVN units 3 to 6 months to get in the frame of mind for the sandbox...

Let me assure you it'll be at least 4 to 6 month for CAPer pilots to "get in the frame of mind"

Where's the CAP training POI for scenarios such as these??  We would just  better  off doing what we do best instead of dreamin of John Wayne ing it with our "percieved capabilities"

[jeders]

Where is this training "gonna" happen?/ Hell its Guard AVN units 3 to 6 months to get in the frame of mind for the sandbox...

Let me assure you it'll be at least 4 to 6 month for CAPer pilots to "get in the frame of mind"

Do you know how long it took to build the Pentagon?

I ask because it's a very large building that was built in very little time. The reason it was built so quickly was because there was a real threat of being conquered during WWII and we needed it. If America were invaded by Mexico, or worse yet Canada, do you really think that we'd be sitting around waiting for things to happen. Every training cycle in existence would be sped up to get as many people ready to fight, even if it was only enough training to get everyone to fire there gun in the same direction.

[heliodoc]

jeders

With all that reasoning... CAP should be preparing NOW not waiting for a crisis management situation 

[Hoorah]

Thanks for commenting on this.

[Rotorhead]

Not gonna happen, but for you to make such perjorative statements without the required knowledge is rather offensive to me.  

Anyway, what are you worried about?  You will be back delivering Bibles to the loincloth-clad natives in the Amazon.  

And your solution to being offended is to insult me?

[JohnKachenmeister]

In OCS we had 2 days to learn how to call for and adjust artillery, and one day for testing.  This is in the days before GPS and computers.  Map, binoculars, and compass.  The standard was to establish a 50-meter bracket within 5 marking rounds, with the initial correction within 10 seconds of the initial impact.

Our crews can already read maps and take data from a map and relay its location on the ground.

No, I'm not suggesting that we do this, and I am not suggesting that we train for this very unlikely mission.

I AM suggesting, however, that this constant whining of losers that "We're not competent... we can't do this... we're no good... etc." self-disparaging blather is both stupidly uninformed and non-productive.  The idea that we are too lame to learn really irritates me.

We are as good as we want to be, and we can learn any task that is necessary.  Frankly, we are already better that Scott Orr thinks we are.

[Rotorhead]

In OCS we had 2 days to learn how to call for and adjust artillery, and one day for testing.  This is in the days before GPS and computers.  Map, binoculars, and compass.  The standard was to establish a 50-meter bracket within 5 marking rounds, with the initial correction within 10 seconds of the initial impact.

Our crews can already read maps and take data from a map and relay its location on the ground.

No, I'm not suggesting that we do this, and I am not suggesting that we train for this very unlikely mission.

I AM suggesting, however, that this constant whining of losers that "We're not competent... we can't do this... we're no good... etc." self-disparaging blather is both stupidly uninformed and non-productive.  The idea that we are too lame to learn really irritates me.

We are as good as we want to be, and we can learn any task that is necessary.  Frankly, we are already better that Scott Orr thinks we are.

Nice of you to single me out. I'm glad to see that my opinion is supported by others here, however.

This is a civilian SAR organization supported by the USAF. Period.

We are very good at that mission.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Not gonna happen, but for you to make such perjorative statements without the required knowledge is rather offensive to me.  

Anyway, what are you worried about?  You will be back delivering Bibles to the loincloth-clad natives in the Amazon.  

And your solution to being offended is to insult me?

Nope.  Merely to remind you that you said that you would leave CAP if it were true that CAP's status under the Geneva Convention was that of a "Combatant."  It IS true, and there are lots of natives out there who need the Word.

Remember to pull your flaps up fast after touchdown, those little dirt runways are short.

[Flying Pig]

Senior Members and Cadets from Fresno Composite Sq. 112 find cover behind a rock while qualifying for their Technician badge in the Forward Observer Specialty Track.  This final test culminates the end of a grueling 8 hour on line correspondence course and an on line exam followed by hands on practical application in the Sierra Mountains.  "Nobody really knows why we are doing this but heck..its in our tool bag." said Lt. Robert Steht, the unit commander.    Cadet Jones, who was bleeding from the ears but still excited stated, "Holy S###, can I do it again!?

[Rotorhead]

Senior Members and Cadets from Fresno Composite Sq. 112 find cover behind a rock while qualifying for their Technician badge in the Forward Observer Specialty Track.  This final test culminates the end of a grueling 8 hour on line correspondence course and an on line exam followed by hands on practical application in the Sierra Mountains.  "Nobody really knows why we are doing this but heck..its in our tool bag." said Lt. Robert Steht, the unit commander.    Cadet Jones, who was bleeding from the ears but still excited stated, "Holy S###, can I do it again!?

..and then they all went home and watched "Red Dawn" again on DVD.

[tarheel gumby]

Many of the earlier posts have not taken in to account some laws still on the books that cover non military organizations. ie the Militia Acts. Many define the Militia into 3 parts- The National Guard and SD F's are the first two and considered to be the Organized Militia and then the Unorganized Militia, which consists of "all able bodied males between the ages of 18 and 45.
In the event of an invasion of the continental USA many state governors will call up their respective militias we might get rolled up in the call up. not as CAP.

[heliodoc]

Granted we can learn any tasks, etc.......

But its "gonna" require training plans , training areas, fuel support, etc

We as CAP can not just go to PAPA 1 AF and say  "we are ready, lets go shoot and take over say, a training are such as Nellis.

Where is the training program??  Is the training going to be over the skies of Maxwell AFB with  C182's screeching aaaalll over the skies as Generals watch our dodging missles and our dodging of threats

Just because one is XYZ Wing and we fly over our 200 hours a yr and we have the best CAP training program.... the reality IS we are a civilian organization  and not EVERY Wing is equal in training and CAP really lacks TRUE Standardization, but I know alot will argue that point, and our dreams of Kombat Air Patrol with C182's is silly, John

Stick with SAR and hauling 'stuff"  with our current argument of full tanks of fuel and 3 large members tooling around in near gross C182 G1000's how can we really asssist in combat other than general hauling of equipment???

Also take it easy on Orr, he has valid points as well as others here

[JayT]

Some of you guys seriously need a realilty check.

[lordmonar]

I'm sorry I stirred up such a hornet's nest.

Bottom line.

It will never happen....CAP is not the military.

I vote lock.

[Flying Pig]

What???  You mean no Forward Observer Specialty Track???  Ahhhh shucks

I think this should go into the hall of fame as the most far fetched CAPTalk topic ever!

[aveighter]

Major K, you are corresponding with people who cannot read with comprehension.  Hence, all the hysterics over your comments despite your very clear assertions to the contrary.   Foolish notions of 182s dodging missiles and cadets training as forward observers and other dimwit comments.

Many commenting have grown up in the fuzzy soft security of an overprotective nanny-state.  The hard and dangerous work of providing this security blanket is performed by people far away, out of sight and for the most part, out of mind.  Being raised on a diet of sugar, fast food, network television, Oprah and animal planet they simply can't comprehend the reality that much of the rest of the world (despite the natural beauty therein) is a rat-hole populated by savages.  Nothing could ever happen here that could possibly keep them from the next half-caff mocha latte or make them late for the latest intellect-sucking offering from the networks.

Their understanding of history is virtually non-existent so they don't know where or from what stock they came.  They crow about CAP having been made for people who couldn't qualify for military service in WWII, civilians only good for lesser tasks.  In this they fail to comprehend that it was these very civilians, the lame, the halt, the glasses wearing gray hairs that were told to strap bombs to little airplanes, fly out to sea and try to attack a foreign military power!  And they did!  Because their nation was in a tight spot and it needed them.  Imagine those fellows reaction to the carping and whining and monumental negativity one reads in so many of these posts.

Another thing these over fed soft-backs fail to understand is that a significant percentage of the CAP population, unlike our founding members, have a background (sometimes a lifetime) experience in the defending and maintenance of a nation.  They wear the uniform of the United States we have been given with honor and pride, not embarrassment and constant minimization. No poseurs.

And so when someone such as the good Major suggests that we are capable of, or worse, desiring to, perform such tasks as the nation may require (even those out of the "comfort zone") the derisive howls and wails are deafening.  The very notion is as foreign to them as actual personal sacrifice.

So, is CAP the military? No.  Is that relevant?  Not one bit. 

I agree with Major Harris.  Lock the thread.  The soft underbelly has been exposed.  Ugly.

[PORed]

CAP is not the military but a civilian force multiplier, much like the CG AUX is not the military but a civilian force multiplier. I think anyone that tries to insinuate otherwise needs to take a good look at what they are with CAP for. We are head to do inland civilian SAR and cadet training. CAP is not a CSAR organization! I think some people here did back to back viewings of seasons 1 and 2 of "Jericho" and then topped it off with "Red Dawn".

[Rotorhead]

CAP is not the military but a civilian force multiplier, much like the CG AUX is not the military but a civilian force multiplier. I think anyone that tries to insinuate otherwise needs to take a good look at what they are with CAP for.

Agreed.

Those who are not happy with the civilian mission of this organization as stated in the charter, but hope for a day when they can once again prove themselves with a role in combat through the CAP, need to stop daydreaming and understand that the current mission of this organization is not what they want it to be.