What type of military status is cap?

[Eclipse]

In situations where CAP is designated the lead agency for a SAR and AD/NG components are tasked to participate, the CAP IC then does have authority over and responsibility for those elements.

I was thinking the same thing, and its actually happened locally not so long ago, however that's more a civilian line of authority than a military one as the IC could just as easily be a Fire Chief or other civilian ES asset, etc.

[es_g0d]

That said, seldom will CAP be the lead agency for an incident.  The most frequent exception to this is, of course, aeronautical search and rescue.  I differentiate aeronautical SAR from the missing person incident as, most often, this responsibility belongs with law enforcement.

Good luck and good hunting,
-Scott
www.CAP-ES.net

[Rotorhead]

On one level we could be considered military....or at least "legal combatants".

Under the Laws of Armed Conflict we do fit the defintion of legal combatants and could then be targeted by enemy forces and entitled to POW status if captured.

Be specific: How is this possible?

[D2SK]

On one level we could be considered military....or at least "legal combatants".

Under the Laws of Armed Conflict we do fit the defintion of legal combatants and could then be targeted by enemy forces and entitled to POW status if captured.

Be specific: How is this possible?

With magic fairy dust.

[Timbo]

On one level we could be considered military....or at least "legal combatants".

Under the Laws of Armed Conflict we do fit the defintion of legal combatants and could then be targeted by enemy forces and entitled to POW status if captured.

Be specific: How is this possible?

With magic fairy dust.

Actually all it takes is a Geneva conventions accepted ID Card. You bet if something did happen and we CAP'ers did perform missions for the AF, we would get the appropriate credentials.  PLUS we wear a military uniform (too the chagrin of many, I know) and would be afforded certain rights. 

No fairy dust, no wishes.  Honestly,  when your Cessna goes down and the whatever group of bad guys comes to get you, are you really going to try the "I am not military, I am a civilian flying planes against you" line?  They would shoot you as a spy.  They might shoot you right there, and be allowed under the rules of war. 

[lordmonar]

On one level we could be considered military....or at least "legal combatants".

Under the Laws of Armed Conflict we do fit the defintion of legal combatants and could then be targeted by enemy forces and entitled to POW status if captured.

Be specific: How is this possible?

Under the Law of Armed Conflict...the definition of a "legal combatant" is:

Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements,
belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions:

(a) that of being commanded by aperson responsible for his subordinates;
(b) that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;
(c) that of carrying arms openly;
(d) that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.

We as the USAF auxillar are "volunteer corps". We have a command structure, We have fixed distinctive signs. We carry our arms openly (our airplanes are considered weapons systems). And finally we condcut our operations in accordances with the laws and customs of war.

And for the UCMJ

(a) The following persons are subject to this chapter:
(1) Members of a regular component of the armed forces, including those awaiting discharge after expiration of their terms of enlistment; volunteers from the time of their muster or acceptance into the armed forces; inductees from the time of their actual induction into the armed forces; and other persons lawfully called or ordered into, or to duty in or for training in, the armed forces, from the dates when they are required by the terms of the call or order to obey it.
(2) Cadets, aviation cadets, and midshipmen.
(3) Members of a reserve component while on inactive-duty training, but in the case of members of the Army National Guard of the United States or the Air National Guard of the United States only when in Federal service.
(4) Retired members of a regular component of the armed forces who are entitled to pay.
(5) Retired members of a reserve component who are receiving hospitalization from an armed force.
(6) Members of the Fleet Reserve and Fleet Marine Corps Reserve.
(7) Persons in custody of the armed forces serving a sentence imposed by a court-martial.
(8) Members of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, Public Health Service, and other organizations, when assigned to and serving with the armed forces.
(9) Prisoners of war in custody of the armed forces.
(10) In time of declared war or a contingency operation, persons serving with or accompanying an armed force in the field.
(11) Subject to any treaty or agreement to which the United States is or may be a party or to any accepted rule of international law, persons serving with, employed by, or accompanying the armed forces outside the United States and outside the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, Guam, and the Virgin Islands.
(12) Subject to any treaty or agreement to which the United States is or may be a party or to any accepted rule of international law, persons within an area leased by or otherwise reserved or acquired for the use of the United States which is under the control of the Secretary concerned and which is outside the United States and outside the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, Guam, and the Virgin Islands.
(13) Lawful enemy combatants (as that term is defined in section 948a (2) of this title) who violate the law of war.

So...if we were assiting the USAF during a war...and we "in the field" we could be subject to the UCMJ.

[Rotorhead]

No fairy dust, no wishes.  Honestly,  when your Cessna goes down and the whatever group of bad guys comes to get you, are you really going to try the "I am not military, I am a civilian flying planes against you" line?  They would shoot you as a spy.  They might shoot you right there, and be allowed under the rules of war. 

I fly civilian SAR within the boundaries of the USA, not combat missions "against" enemy combatants.  I'd leave CAP if that changed; we aren't properly prepared nor equipped for a combat-related mission.

I get nervous when people start trying to suggest we're "part" of the USAF in statements like yours. If I wanted to be a part of combat operations, I'd be in the RM.

It's almost as if you have visions of being shot at and, as Monar said, being taken POW. Exciting fantsies but it isn't what we're about.

[Rotorhead]

Under the Law of Armed Conflict...the definition of a "legal combatant" is:

Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements,
belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions:

(a) that of being commanded by aperson responsible for his subordinates;
(b) that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;
(c) that of carrying arms openly;
(d) that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.

Civil Air Patrol does not meet criteria "c" and "d."

An unarmed light aircraft sold on the civillian market is not a "weapons system."

And the last ground team search I was on had nothing to do with the "laws and customs of war."

Therefore, we do not meet the definition.

Again, if you want to be a hero in wartime, join the active-duty miltary.

[Rotorhead]

Under the Law of Armed Conflict...the definition of a "legal combatant" is:

Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements,
belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions:

(a) that of being commanded by aperson responsible for his subordinates;
(b) that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;
(c) that of carrying arms openly;
(d) that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.

Civil Air Patrol does not meet criteria "c" and "d."

An unarmed light aircraft sold on the civillian market is not a "weapons system."

And the last ground team search I was on had nothing to do with the "laws and customs of war."

Therefore, we do not meet the definition.

Again, if you want to be a hero in wartime, join the active-duty miltary.

[Rotorhead]

Official Civilian Auxiliary of the United States Air Force = NO military status.

THAT is the correct answer for the cadet who asked.

[lordmonar]

Timbo,

No ID card required.

Rotohead....

Our cessnas are no different then the one the Iraqi Air Force and many other Air Forces are flying right now.
And we conduct our operations within the context of U.S. law which is within the laws and customs of warfare.

This has nothing to do with wanting to be a war hero.....it is just a barracks lawyer version of the LOAC and UCMJ.

If Mexico were ever to invade......an we were captured, we could be held as POWs.  Our aircraft, facilities and personnel could be targeted as legal military targets.  And finally if we were operating with the military in the field (such as operating out of an air base) we could be subject to the UCMJ.

Now....we will never be invaded...and if we were we would probably never be called to assist the USAF so 90% of this is just an academic argument.  But.........the laws and rules do allow for us to benefit from the Geneva Conventions and do allow the military to place us under military discipline.

[Rotorhead]

Our cessnas are no different then the one the Iraqi Air Force and many other Air Forces are flying right now.

So what makes them "weapons systems" if they are unarmed?

[lordmonar]

Our cessnas are no different then the one the Iraqi Air Force and many other Air Forces are flying right now.

So what makes them "weapons systems" if they are unarmed?

Does not have to be armed to be a "weapon system".  C-130s are not armed and they are a weapon system.
CAP is a force multiplyer in military jargon.  We free up other weapon systems from doing liason, SAR, DR, CD work.
I am a comm guy by training....and our communications network was also classifed as a weapon system. 

[Rotorhead]

Our cessnas are no different then the one the Iraqi Air Force and many other Air Forces are flying right now.

So what makes them "weapons systems" if they are unarmed?

Does not have to be armed to be a "weapon system".  C-130s are not armed and they are a weapon system.
CAP is a force multiplyer in military jargon.  We free up other weapon systems from doing liason, SAR, DR, CD work.
I am a comm guy by training....and our communications network was also classifed as a weapon system. 

Then so is a 1998 CAP minivan.

I think what you're saying is a load of peanut butter.

I also believe that if what you said was true, we'd have a much smaller membership. (Heck, I'd leave.)

[JohnKachenmeister]

Bye, Scott.  It was nice knowing you.

What he is saying is absolutely true.

We fall under the GC provisions for "Irregular Forces."  We are considered, for purposes of the Conventions, to be members of the armed forces of a belligerent power.  Unless we are out there committing acts of atrocities against civilians, we are probably conducting our operations within the Law of Armed Conflict.

Assume Mexico invaded the southwestern United States as a part of "La Reconquista."  What you have just told me is that you would refuse to search for an A-10 driver who bailed out after being hit by ground fire.

So, have a nice life.  I'm sure "Pilots for Jesus" can use your skill to fly Bibles to natives in obscure rainforest villages.

[lordmonar]

I posted the LAW and the Army Field Manual....I'm not making this stuff up.

[MIKE]

There is a reason my CGAux ID card has Geneva Convention Category IV on the back.  Maybe CAP needs to do the same?

[JohnKachenmeister]

I posted the LAW and the Army Field Manual....I'm not making this stuff up.

And I was a general staff officer who participated in writing the Army's SOP for prisoner-of-war operations, which included knowing enough about the Protocols for Treatment of Prisoners of War and Other Captives to be able to make intelligent decisions on classification.

A lot of misinformed folks think that just because Congress says we carry of "Non-combat missions and programs" for the USAF, then we are "Non-combatants" under the Geneva Conventions.  Such is not the case.

To be considered a "Non-Combatant" under the Geneva Conventions, we would have to be EXCLUSIVELY involved in medical support and evacuation, and mark our planes, vehicles, and personnel with the red cross flag.

Once we used a plane for moving a repair part for the USAF, or ferryed a commander to a base, or did an air recon for a convoy movement, we would have to remove the red cross.  We would then become legitimate targets, and (Dare I say the word?)... combatants.

[JohnKachenmeister]

There is a reason my CGAux ID card has Geneva Convention Category IV on the back.  Maybe CAP needs to do the same?

Nice to have, but not a need to have.  The Conventions are silent on documents, but the International Commission of the Red Cross recommends them

[PaulR]

On one level we could be considered military....or at least "legal combatants".

Under the Laws of Armed Conflict we do fit the defintion of legal combatants and could then be targeted by enemy forces and entitled to POW status if captured.

Also...in the event of war the UCMJ could be applied to us.

I know that you are only talking theory here... but...  I have four words for this...

No Way in Hades for any of these points!  

Even if we are physically invaded by billion soldier strong force from Communist China in a blitzkrieg like maneuver and everyone is pressed into a force like the Volksturm to defend our very lives, the CAP would not be organized as a combatant unit.   

I can hear it now!

"Now scramble Cadet Cessna Sqn 1, there is an imbound flight of Chinese J-10 fighers inbound.  ETA 10 Mikes..."  (just kidding here)  But seriously, would you launch even a SAR sortie with a Cessna in a combat zone?