November NEC Meeting - NCO Corps

[Cecil DP]

Did anyone notice that there is also a proposal to reintroduce the NCO grades to CAP? Not just for former NCO but for any new members. Hopefully this will result in meeting more requirements for CAP 2LT than 6 months and completion of the online courses.

[sarmed1]

Did anyone notice that there is also a proposal to reintroduce the NCO grades to CAP? Not just for former NCO but for any new members. Hopefully this will result in meeting more requirements for CAP 2LT than 6 months and completion of the online courses.

actually I am hoping this means that we will look at officer grades meeting reuirements similar to that of "commisioning" of military officers....ie college degrees for officers, non degrees = NCO's (yes I know there are a few nuiances there...ie NG will give a commision in some cases for an associates degree with promotion up to O-3)

mk

[JohnKachenmeister]

I hope this NCO program is something than can help the CAP improve its officer corps.  We need it.

When I think what I, and others, had to endure to wear the gold bar of a 2nd Lt., and then I consider what a CAP member has to endure to earn the same privilege, I find a serious disconnect there!

[cnitas]

Even under some kind of NCO system, CAP would likely still make all pilots at least 2Lts.  It is also unlikely to require folks to turn in their bars and leaves.

So it seems to me to pretty much be a 1/2 measure. 

Unless we are also talking about restructuring the officer corps, creating an NCO corps seems silly.

[JayT]

Even under some kind of NCO system, CAP would likely still make all pilots at least 2Lts.  It is also unlikely to require folks to turn in their bars and leaves.

So it seems to me to pretty much be a 1/2 measure. 

Unless we are also talking about restructuring the officer corps, creating an NCO corps seems silly to me.

Lets do it then.

Make pilots Flight Officers.

[ddelaney103]

Did anyone notice that there is also a proposal to reintroduce the NCO grades to CAP? Not just for former NCO but for any new members. Hopefully this will result in meeting more requirements for CAP 2LT than 6 months and completion of the online courses.

actually I am hoping this means that we will look at officer grades meeting reuirements similar to that of "commisioning" of military officers....ie college degrees for officers, non degrees = NCO's (yes I know there are a few nuiances there...ie NG will give a commision in some cases for an associates degree with promotion up to O-3)

mk

Well, I'm hoping they'll bury this proposal, again, and stop digging it up.

No one - including TP or the Chief - has ever said what problem(s) the application of "Magic NCO Pixie Dust" is meant to solve, much less how it will solve it.

In the AF, the system (in overly broad terms, I admit) is simple: officers decide what, NCO's decide how, and Airmen do.  However, in CAP we'll have no Airmen so we'll end up with officers doing and NCO's doing as well.  We'll end up looking like Capt. Ben Ryan and SSgt Harry Fitz from "Project UFO" - doing the same job, just one calls the other "Sir."

I suppose this will make us more egalitarian: we'll now have "tofu Chiefs" to go along with our "tofu Lt Col's."

[cnitas]

Lets do it then.

Make pilots Flight Officers.

Fine, but is that what is really on the agenda?

[jimmydeanno]

It is also unlikely to require folks to turn in their bars and leaves.

I also highly doubt they would do something like this.  Even with a change in the officer program it would probably be instituted as the changes were in the CP when they added the Super NCO grades and changed the achievements - cadets being allowed to continue in the "old program" until the end of the phase or by a certain date.

I can't really make a determination on whether or not an NCO corps would even be of benefit to CAP without seeing what that portion of the PD program would entail or what their role would be in the program.  So to "judge" for myself I think I'd need some of these questions answered.

1: What is the role of the NCO in CAP?
2: Who is the "new program" open to?
3: What is the criteria to become a CAP officer vs. NCO?
4: Do members flip-flop between the two depending on what their job/role is or can people flip between the two?
5: Would the PME options still be open to all our members?  ie; SOS, ACSC, AWC or would the other options be available SNCOA, etc.
6: How would the "newly discussed PME equivelents" transfer over from the CP?
7: Who do the NCOs "oversee?"

I am very interested in the prospect of this type of program but would need to see details to give an actual opinion.  My only hope is that the re-introduction isn't a half thought out program with nothing to support it when it rolls out (courses, program outlines, etc).

[cnitas]

My only hope is that the re-introduction isn't a half thought out program with nothing to support it when it rolls out (courses, program outlines, etc).

Been in CAP long??

[SeattleSarge]

Unless we are also talking about restructuring the officer corps, creating an NCO corps seems silly.

There already IS a CAP NCO corps.  All we are asking is that it be formalized and we have an opportunity for promotion like other senior members.

-SeattleSarge

[Cecil DP]

Lets do it then.

Make pilots Flight Officers.

Fine, but is that what is really on the agenda?

AGENDA ITEM - 14 ED Action
SUBJECT: CAP NCO Corps
GLR/CC – Col Carr
INFORMATION BACKGROUND:
In May 2007, the National Commander appointed a working group to investigate the
possibility of developing a viable NCO corps within the senior member program. The
group has been researching a number of issues that affect the ability of NCOs to
become a more meaningful part of Civil Air Patrol. While current regulations allow
former military NCOs to retain their NCO grade in CAP, there are no provisions for
these members to earn any further promotions. In order to attract qualified former
NCOs to the program, we need a mechanism to allow them to progress in the program
in the same manner as the senior member officers. The ability to earn future
promotions would be the first step toward fully integrating the NCO grades into the
overall structure of the organization.
Additionally, some new members do not wish to obtain officer grades or are better
suited to the NCO corps. Currently, this is not an option unless these individuals have
previously served as enlisted members of the Armed Forces. The ability to bring new
members in at the enlisted grades appears to be the next step toward developing a fully
functioning NCO corps.
Since the Air Force has retained control of the CAP grade structure, it will be necessary
to request their approval to change the current NCO grade restrictions; however, this
cannot be done until specific criteria have been established.
PROPOSED NEC ACTION:
That the National Executive Committee vote to approve the concept of future
promotions for former military NCOs; task the working group to develop promotion
criteria for each grade, and present a proposal to the May 2008 NEC.
Also, approve the working group to consider concept of individuals without prior military
service being eligible for promotion to NCO grades. The working group is to develop a
program for these individuals to earn NCO grades through CAP participation and
training. This plan should be presented to the summer 2008 National Board for
consideration.
ESTIMATED FUNDING IMPACT:
To be determined.
CAP NATIONAL HEADQUARTERS' COMMENTS:
The NHQ staff provided assistance to the initial NCO Working Group and will continue
to provide support as necessary.

[ddelaney103]

Unless we are also talking about restructuring the officer corps, creating an NCO corps seems silly.

There already IS a CAP NCO corps.  All we are asking is that it be formalized and we have an opportunity for promotion like other senior members.

-SeattleSarge

No, there is no "CAP NCO Corps" - there are RM NCO's that are allowed to keep wearing stripes in CAP in exchange for not promoting, except in concert with RM NCO promotions.

Again, there is nothing stating what NCO's can or can't do in CAP.  We don't need an "CAP NCO Corps" if it's only purpose is to allow NCO's to promote outside of the RM or create non-prior service NCO's.  We are too small to inflict the Officer/NCO split culture on ourselves.

[Larry Mangum]

I think a better question is with a BOG, an NEC and the NB, do we really need three levels of management to efficiently run CAP?   The National Board has to be one of the most unwieldy ways to run a corporation around, it is hard enough to get a 11 member finance committee to reach agreement much less a 60+ member board with competing agenda's.

[jimmydeanno]

My only hope is that the re-introduction isn't a half thought out program with nothing to support it when it rolls out (courses, program outlines, etc).

Been in CAP long??

I always leave room for hope

[pixelwonk]

split topic NEC Meeting -Cadet rep from CAP NCOs.

[Flying Pig]

So what we are talking about is making a way for people to wear different symbols on their uniform.  You have got to be kidding me.  An NCO Corps?  So does that mean NCOs cant be pilots? Or command Squadrons?  maybe our C-182 can have a CAP NCO Crew Chief and we'll put his name on the plane.  Is each Sq going to have a Senior Member 1st Sgt?

If prior service NCOs want to promote let them change over and promote within the current system.  They knew they couldnt promote when they became CAP NCO's.  If the Senior enlisted want to promote there is an avenue in place, its called the military promotion system.

Some of you want to be military officers so bad you can hardly stand it.   OCS, National Guard Commissions, CAP Officers having degrees with an NCO Corps under you.  Get over yourselves and go buy a Corvette for your mid life crisis or for those of you who did serve, go back into the Reserves.  CAP doesnt even have a structured Officer Corps.   It doesnt matter what rank you are in CAP and it never has.  My 15 years in CAP Ive never seen Seniors give any weight to rank....its their position and their expertise.  We arent the military and we will never have that culture as a part time volunteer organization.  Having non military CAP enlisted members defeats the purpose because they arent going to be NCOs.  They are going to be Senior members performing the same duties right along with CAP officers.  The only difference in the symbol on their uniform.  Lets call it like it is.  Its a recruiting tool.

If any of you really think CAP has the capacity to have a Separate NCO and Officer Corps your living in a dream world.

[Eclipse]

Unless we are also talking about restructuring the officer corps, creating an NCO corps seems silly.

There already IS a CAP NCO corps.  All we are asking is that it be formalized and we have an opportunity for promotion like other senior members.

-SeattleSarge

Sorry, no there isn't.

What we have today are current and former members of the RealMilitary® who have chosen not to accept
an appointment as a CAP officer.  Nothing more, nothing less.

There is no progression, professional development, or duties specifically open or restricted from a member who falls into this category.

Members who do not choose appointed CAP grade have no more, or less standing than any other member.

If you consider that an "NCO corps", well there you go.

[Eclipse]

There is also the issue of the "caste" system of NCO's vs. Officers.

No one who has served in the RealMilitary® can deny it exists -

Enlisted personnel tend to be from a pool of less >formal<  educated, working class people doing technical, hands on work.

Officers, by design, are college-educated, manager / generalists, more concerned with a larger scope than a specific task or specialty.

This is a generalization, I know, and there are plenty of exceptions, especially in the area of combat pilots,
and very technical fields, etc., but it holds true enough for conversation. In many cases the exceptions are addressed by Warrant officers.

My point here is that in a volunteer organization like CAP, the above separation of duties does not exist, never will, and can't without a WHOLE LOT more people.

We've already got "pilots vs. ground", "cadets vs. seniors", and "GOB's vs. the new New Garde" - the last thing we need is a further divisive caste system of "Enlisted vs. Officers", put in place to basically stoke some misguided egos or "fix" problems related to leadership in a volunteer organization.

I offer general respect to anyone who walks in the door with an arm full of stripes, that means you will know how to wear a uniform, how a paramilitary structure works, how the chain of command works, and
have likely flourished in high-stress environments with "less-than-motivated" people under your command,
but after a few meetings those stripes may work against you if you can't get with >our< program, and you think the stripes (or bars, or stars) actually mean anything to CAP operations. 

What I need are people willing to learn, teach, and show up.  Everything else comes from there.

We have bigger problems than what is on our shoulders, people - I would be more in favor of doing away with the rank structure entirely than adding more complexity to it. 

People join CAP for the activities and the public service aspect - the paramilitary structure is a plus for most, but also gravy.  I'll find people just as fast without the extra weight of the grade on my collar.

[alamrcn]

I don't have a college degree, and I am FOR the addition of an NCO program.
I would even latterally move my own O4 grade over!

-Ace

[Dragoon]

So, instead of "Join CAP and become a Lt Col - not that it matters"....

it'll be

"Join CAP and become a Chief Master Sergeant - not that it matters"

In a way this makes sense - since rank doesn't matter, why not have NCOs for those that think stripes are prettier than oak leaves? 

And while we're at it, can we add warrant officers?  How about naval ranks?  Can I be a Master Gunnery Sergeant?  After all, it's just about what title or insignia you think is cooler.  The job is exactly the same.


Seriously, more and more I'm thinking the way to go is to strip CAP entirely of the military grade structure and use some CAP specific grades. That would eliminate all the comparisions, posturing and endless threads about being "real officers."  Which we're not.  And truthfully, I'm not sure we need to be.