CAP officers saluting military officers

[sandman]

My first job as a butterbar I had a staff sergeant assigned to my shop who was a Captain in the CAP.  Should he be in CAP uniform on base?  And if he were and we met on the company street, who should initiate the required salute?  FWIW, that is the reason that I didn't join CAP back in 1961.

Okay, in a situation like this: If you're that uncomfortable with the awkwardness that this might bring and you feel you're not "mature" enough to handle it, then you were right not to join.

So, to put myself in the same situation: I am a US Navy lieutenant (O-3) and I am a US CAP major (O-4). I am drilling in a CAP unit that has an active duty Army/Navy/AF/Marine E-6 who happens to be a CAP O-5 and....let's say is the squadron commander.

As we both attend the CAP drill in CAP uniform I would render appropriate C&C to the CAP Lt Col and would have no problem initiating a salute to that Lt Col (real E-6). I would play the game within the realm of CAP knowing that in reality things are different.

I would not expect the Lt Col to initiate a salute to me while we are in costume...er....CAP uniform. That does not mean that the Lt Col (real mil E-6) wouldn't initiate on his/her own volition....in that case it would actually be more awkward for the Lt Col to salute and/or stand at attention or call me "sir" first, especially in a cadet or composite squadron

Any gamers out there? When you immerse yourself in the realm of the game you want to play the appropriate part and expect others to play by the rules of the realm right?

So be it with your role in CAP.

[mikeylikey]

^  It is totally different when you have an E-6 working directly for you, and he also is a CAP officer in your CAP SQD.  It would be inappropriate for you to call him or her Sir, then expect that person to call you Sir the next morning.  It has to deal with the whole "might have to oder you to do something that may kill you". 

Military Officers are Military Officers both on duty and off duty.  Your CAP volunteer membership may be in your off duty time, but the whole profession of arms attitude thing has to be kept going.  It would also be inadvisable to socialize after the CAP meeting with that enlisted individual. 

When word gets out that you salute, socialize with and call one of you subordinates Sir, you loose the superior-subordinate thing. 

In fact, the Army Officer's Guide 48th edition says that officer-enlisted relationship that is expected during work/ duty hours MUST be enforced off duty as well.  It would be very inappropriate to put yourself in a position subordinate to one of your subordinates.  IF you are in the same CAP SQD, at the very least you should excuse youself from any position in which you work directly with or for that individual.

[mikeylikey]

You CAP members who continually bring up the "what if" when dealing with real military use some common sense (which seems to be lacking in many of you ).

:clap:  Finally a person who can decide which of us have common sense and which of us are lacking.  How much will it cost for you to let me know? 

[mikeylikey]

Why is the applause not showing up??  Is it my computer? 

[JC004]

Why is the applause not showing up??  Is it my computer? 

it has been broken for a while

[Flying Pig]

Some of you seem to live very complicated lives.

My first job as a butterbar I had a staff sergeant assigned to my shop who was a Captain in the CAP.  Should he be in CAP uniform on base?  And if he were and we met on the company street, who should initiate the required salute?  FWIW, that is the reason that I didn't join CAP back in 1961.


Theres nothing to say you even have to salute him.  If I was a military officer, and also a CAP officer, I wouldnt be saluting "senior" CAP officers while I was in a military uniform unless that person outranked me in real life also.   Being a CAP member also, if the Wing Comm walked by in uniform and you knew who he was a salute may be smart. 
When I was an enlisted Marine I ran across several CAP officers while in my Marine uniform.....I would usually salute because I knew the deal.  But CAP officers don't rate salutes by military personell.  Sure some do and theres nothing wrong with it if they choose to.  If the SSgt didnt understand that, then I would say the enlisted guy was the one who needed to grow up.  Your professional military relationships trump anything CAP.   You would need to be cautious of fraternizing and the enlisted member should be aware of the ramifications of that scenario. 

[mikeylikey]

Well......after much thought, I say lets just get AF to say " As the Auxiliary of the Air Force, AF members MUST salute those CAP Officers whom outrank them".  This would be a way to make the CAP more a part of the AF team right? 

So, to bring CAP Officers more in line with AF Officers......lets get the Professional Development more in line with the AF.  Make the Officers basic course that the AF offers into a distance ed program for new CAP Officers.  Then make SOS mandatory for promotion.  Get the other schools tailored to CAP by the AF.  Lets truly get the CAP Officer to a level that mirrors that of the AF. 

I am aware that this is a debate for another thread, but.......sorry! 

I have thought about what I have written above, and now say after PM'ing with a few others that the saluting issue is a dead debate as it now stands.  Follow the rules we have, and decide on a personal basis, should I salute or should I be a "terd" and not return the salute from another individual. 

In summary, salute those CAP members who outrank you while in CAP uniform.  Return the salute of military members who salute you while you are in CAP uniform.

[Duke Dillio]

First off, just because someone holds a comission doesn't mean that they outrank CAP members. While I am conflicted about CAP being a military organization, as long as we wear the uniform, and wear the insignia, we should act like it.

So, SM  1st Lieutenant should salute an military Captain/Lieutenant. Should military officers/enlistedmen salute CAP members? I would vote maybe, with a definate yes if we did a massive reoganization of our Senior Member rank structure. But thats another discussion.

By the way, why does CAPP151 say that we're suppose to salute MoH winners? I haven't been able to find anything to that effect in federal law or military protocol books.

There is nothing really written about saluting a MoH winner but it is a tradition.  Effectively, you are not saluting the person, but rather the medal itself.  There is no law or protocol and you won't get in trouble for not saluting but I think it would be considered disrespectful.

[DHollywood]

Why does everyone get all worked up about saluting???

When I was a lowly E2, there was a particular LT butterbar fresh from ROTC that had a knack for getting people hurt.

I never saluted him once - and I mean never. 

A salute is rendered.  You can't make anyone salute anyone else.

Its their choice to offer the salute.

I render the salute to all officers - CAP, Active, Reserve, even CG Aux, who hold grade higher than mine.  When I render a salute I expect one in return (its a two way thing really... its not about power) and if I don't get one I will follow you down the street until you do, quite loudly in fact.

I don't expect anyone to give me a salute but when they do I sharply return that salute - because its a warrior's handshake.

And I don't care if that POS butterbar turns up as a Wing CC someday, I'll never render that salute (not any real risk there because he got dead somewhere along the way).

IMHAO

[shorning]

I render the salute to all officers - CAP, Active, Reserve, even CG Aux, who hold grade higher than mine. 

But,...

When I was a lowly E2, there was a particular LT butterbar fresh from ROTC that had a knack for getting people hurt.

I never saluted him once - and I mean never. 

And I don't care if that POS butterbar turns up as a Wing CC someday, I'll never render that salute (not any real risk there because he got dead somewhere along the way).

Sounds a bit hypocritical.  It is not buffet.  You can't pick and choose the pieces you like.  It's not about your feelings towards him, it about a greater respect for the Profession of Arms.  If you truly had respect for your fellow service members, you'd salute him regardless of your personal feelings.  That's part of being a professional.

[DHollywood]

I render the salute to all officers - CAP, Active, Reserve, even CG Aux, who hold grade higher than mine. 

But,...

When I was a lowly E2, there was a particular LT butterbar fresh from ROTC that had a knack for getting people hurt.

I never saluted him once - and I mean never. 

And I don't care if that POS butterbar turns up as a Wing CC someday, I'll never render that salute (not any real risk there because he got dead somewhere along the way).

Sounds a bit hypocritical.  It is not buffet.  You can't pick and choose the pieces you like.  It's not about your feelings towards him, it about a greater respect for the Profession of Arms.  If you truly had respect for your fellow service members, you'd salute him regardless of your personal feelings.  That's part of being a professional.

Your allegation that I am hypocritical and unprofessional assumes many facts not present in evidence, sir.

And you missed the point of emphasis.  You can never force anyone to do anything.  They either make the choice to do it, or they submit under force or duress.   

And as for my not saluting this guy back then- its a paratrooper thing and it was my choice.  And its in the past.

If you refer to the present tense indicated in my post you will see that I presently render the salute to officers as appropriate.  Prior bad acts are generally not admissible, but I opened the door to make a point.

[Skyray]

The pig that flies said:

Theres nothing to say you even have to salute him.

I think you guys are missing the point.  According to the rules we both played under at the time, he had to salute me.

To have joined an outfit with faux rank, particularly when my direct subordinate outranked me in that faux rank, would not have been prudent, and might even have been seen by my commanding general as fraternizing.

[sandman]

Why does everyone get all worked up about saluting???

When I was a lowly E2, there was a particular LT butterbar fresh from ROTC that had a knack for getting people hurt.

I never saluted him once - and I mean never. 

A salute is rendered.  You can't make anyone salute anyone else.

Its their choice to offer the salute.

I render the salute to all officers - CAP, Active, Reserve, even CG Aux, who hold grade higher than mine.  When I render a salute I expect one in return (its a two way thing really... its not about power) and if I don't get one I will follow you down the street until you do, quite loudly in fact.

I don't expect anyone to give me a salute but when they do I sharply return that salute - because its a warrior's handshake.

And I don't care if that POS butterbar turns up as a Wing CC someday, I'll never render that salute (not any real risk there because he got dead somewhere along the way).

IMHAO

Doug,

I am hoping that your comments are anecdotal about your past and do not reflect your current practice of customs and courtesies especially in your current post as an IG.

Selective saluting is a symptomatic character defect that runs deep into overall disrespect for authority. Any person harboring such a character flaw without willingness to change it should not be placed in a position of trust or authority especially with cadets. The good news is that this flaw can easily be unlearned and if the person is willing to change sould be allowed to continue in a position of trust.

Saluting for real military members in the real military is not an optional practice and can be punished under articles in the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

As an aside, military prisoners are not allowed the honor of rendering a salute.....

/r
LT

[AlphaSigOU]

Way back when after I succumbed to the dark side after enlisting active duty in the Air Force, one of my fellow services squadron members was commander of the CAP overseas squadron at Spangdahlem. SSgt by day, CAP Major during meeting nights. I was a lowly A1C by day, more well known for running the burger and short order grill line at the infamous 'Mosel Disposal' chow hall. On meeting nights, I wore TFO (later 1st Lt) bars and walked the mile or so down the hill from the barracks to the CAP meeting location. (Ya gotta remember, this was in the days of hard rank and blue epaulets for CAP.) Once in a while I'd get saluted - and I would salute back; other times I'd get a quizzical look, especially if they recognized me as the chow hall burger flipper who just served him his or her lunch. If they went through the chow hall line and asked, I'd tell 'em what the whole business was about. Any doubt they had about someone impersonating an officer was dispelled.

The services squadron commander and first sergeant were well aware of my 'dual' status and I never went out of my way to jack up a fellow airman, an NCO - or even a junior officer - because he or she didn't pop off a smart salute to me in my CAP uniform. It would have not been healthy for my well-being in the RealMilitary®.

[DHollywood]

Anecdotal yes.  I should have used the BBC tags [anecdote][/anecdote].

And as I have said now three times, I render the salute to officers who hold grade higher than mine.  And I collect a salute in return.  And I return all salutes sharply.

As for me not saluting someone more than 20 years ago, I'm pretty sure the statute of limitations has since passed.  And I chose push-up over saluting a leg butterbar (non-paratrooper) which was pretty much the C&C at the time at FT Bragg.  But thats another story for another forum.  

As paratroopers, we had many character flaws in garrison - my salute anecdote being one of them.  But, as in most forum conversations, I see the intelect of my anecdote is lost to the occasion.  Fair enough.

I'll cast my pearls more wisely next time.

[sandman]

^  It is totally different when you have an E-6 working directly for you, and he also is a CAP officer in your CAP SQD.  It would be inappropriate for you to call him or her Sir, then expect that person to call you Sir the next morning.  It has to deal with the whole "might have to oder you to do something that may kill you".

I will concede to a point. However, I maintain that it would not be inappropriate to follow the scenario I outlined in my previous post. My concession is that in your scenario, with the non-com "outranking" (in CAP) the commissioned officer and they were in the same real mil combat unit and were in the same chain of command, then yes; one or the other should extricate him or herself from that particular situation and move on to another CAP unit.

Do you have any examples of conflict when the same set of members volunteered in....let's say the Boy Scouts or some other non-military styled volunteer group? I would be interested in knowing how often such a situation would happen.....might make a good journal article for Armed Forces Quarterly, MOAA, or some other such publication.
 

Military Officers are Military Officers both on duty and off duty.  Your CAP volunteer membership may be in your off duty time, but the whole profession of arms attitude thing has to be kept going.  It would also be inadvisable to socialize after the CAP meeting with that enlisted individual. 

When word gets out that you salute, socialize with and call one of you subordinates Sir, you loose the superior-subordinate thing. 

In fact, the Army Officer's Guide 48th edition says that officer-enlisted relationship that is expected during work/ duty hours MUST be enforced off duty as well.  It would be very inappropriate to put yourself in a position subordinate to one of your subordinates.  IF you are in the same CAP SQD, at the very least you should excuse youself from any position in which you work directly with or for that individual.

Right. As I've said, I concede to a point. So now what has been learned from this discussion? Perhaps we can glean from this that, except for one specific situation, you should follow C&C and render a proper salute to those officers who outrank you while weaing the uniform you are in at the moment....

[mikeylikey]

    

[sandman]

Anecdotal yes.  I should have used the BBC tags [anecdote][/anecdote].

And as I have said now three times, I render the salute to officers who hold grade higher than mine.  And I collect a salute in return.  And I return all salutes sharply.

As for me not saluting someone more than 20 years ago, I'm pretty sure the statute of limitations has since passed.  And I chose push-up over saluting a leg butterbar (non-paratrooper) which was pretty much the C&C at the time at FT Bragg.  But thats another story for another forum.  

As paratroopers, we had many character flaws in garrison - my salute anecdote being one of them.  But, as in most forum conversations, I see the intelect of my anecdote is lost to the occasion.  Fair enough.

I'll cast my pearls more wisely next time.

Thanks Doug! I reread your post once or twice before I posted (and depressurized the flamethrower ).

I understand the Airborne culture to a point and taking push-ups vice returning a salute was appropriate for that time. My point in stating UCMJ action as an optional punishment was not to inculpate you for your anectdotes but to broadly mention that it is the usual way to address that sort of disrespect today.

Saluting is a time honored tradition. I mentioned that military prisoners (not POW's) are not allowed to salute so that someone who refuses to salute in a way places themself on the same level as a dishonorable military (soon to be former military) member.

Thanks again for the clarification and for your continued service to your country!

/r
LT

[Smokey]

OK....So we had a few rare examples of issues that could possibly come up with those of dual status.     Just how many of those are there??   

Maybe you need to settle this with former Natl CC, Gen Andersen who is a full bird Colonel in the regular AF.

OTHER THAN THAT....

What the heck is the big deal.............just render the darn salute to those above you and return any salutes rendered to you.......

It's really simple.....sheesh

[Rube11]

Wow...

You guys sure know how to beat the hell out of a dead horse!

Simple concept:  You don't want to play military and salute; wear the appropriate uniform.

You want to wear the USAF style uniform; fulfill your responsibility to salute all superior officers appointed over you.  OBTW:  If you get a professional enlisted person who chooses to salute the CAP company or field grade officer (they are not obligated to do so) have the professional courtesy to return the proper salute. 

What's really sad is most Wings do not teach the proper way to salute; consequently, we have some really weird looking hand gestures that do nothing more than embarrass the CAP corps!  Additionally, we have many CAP officers throughout this nation wearing the military style uniform who do not salute those of higher rank.  Thanks to this type of unprofessional behavior, these same folks become a negative role model for our cadets!

Bottomline; If you have a hang-up about saluting get out of the USAF style uniform!  Simple as that.

Cheers,

Rube11