Salutations...

[Stonewall]

Seriously?  Don't get all patriotic and philisophical about this stuff. It truly isn't that big of a deal.  Take it from someone spent almost 15 years in and around the military in Washington DC while in a CAP uniform.  Yes, sometimes military folks look at us weird because they don't quite understand who or what we are.  But the moment a CAP Lt Col salutes an Air Force 2d Lt you'll throw the whole universe out of whack.

Simply say "hey, how's it going" and return a salute if they initiate.  If their grade is higher than yours, salute.

That's not only the common sense thing to do, its the right thing to do.

[Eclipse]

Please explain how that is a misguided idea.

For starters it violates the USAF-approved CAP pamphlet that governs this whole mess (for us), and is a general violation of the established protocol regarding saluting.

Further, it makes no sense, and it sets up a situation we don't want to be in - our bird Colonels initiating salutes to butter bars.  And your desire to "show them respect" could potentially setup a bad-feeling encounter the next time a puffed-up 2d Lt. sees a CAP Colonel, expects a salute, doesn't get one and has "words".

I've seen this go sour in both directions and we don't want to be there - Goober CAP officers dressing down enlisted personnel for not saluting, and Goober CAP officers walking around either saluting everything that moves out of "respect", or even worse, actively correcting some poor enlisted man on why they don't have to salute CAP officers, blah, blah, blah.

Respect them all you want, its completely appropriate, but don't expect compensated military to understand or be interested in the socio-economic-political-histrionics that make up CAP, its grade structure, or our place in the military industrial complex.

If someone salutes you, return it smartly, if you encounter someone superior in grade to you, salute them smartly, and MOVE ON PEOPLE!

...And if you're new to CAP and nervous about it, spend some time walking to the left of a more experienced CAP Member who is superior in grade to you and watch what he does for a while.

[PaulR]

I also feel that all CAP members should salute ALL military officers, including Warrant officers as a sign of respect, regardless of if your CAP rank is "higher" than the military officer's rank.

That is a mis-guided idea.  Just follow the protocol like everyone else.

We're no less a service than anyone else - different, but no less.

Leave it at that and move on.

How is markh's comment misguided?  US military officers are to be rendered the proper customs and courtesies... Period.  While I love the CAP and it's mission, comparing CAP Officers to Military Officers in regards to entitlement and in the rendering of customs and courtesies are laughable to say the least.  I have loved the CAP since I was a kid and will always feel that it is the best all around VOLUNTEER organization out there.   

[Ford73Diesel]

Good point, between Stonewall and you i see a valid point.

Eclipse, you and I share opposite views but i would like to add that this is the reason CAP officers should have their own grade symbols, that would eliminate any confusion between RM and CAP.

[Timbo]

.......... this is the reason CAP officers should have their own grade symbols, that would eliminate any confusion between RM and CAP.

There is NO CONFUSION. The AF says "CAP will wear AF grade insignia, and follow this set of guidelines while doing it".  No Confusion. 

What is the "big deal" about Saluting a CAP member??  Does it hurt you??  "Real Military Officers" and "Real Enlisted People" are not the only ones who exchange salutes in our society!  Honestly, you need to get off your high chair and just throw out the salute, because (A) You know what CAP Volunteers do for their communities and country, (B) they wear a symbol that is wholly different than your own, which entitles most in the Armed Forces to the salute, and you not saluting just confuses the passerby more than if you would have saluted.

I think you and a few others just don't like saluting Officers for some reason and want to limit the group of Officers you salute to the least amount......as in "only Real Military Officers". 

Grow up.  Do what you want, but remember there are many in CAP who have Federal Commissions, and may call you out to embarrass you the next time you meet. 

Final question.......when in a CAP uniform, am I supposed to salute every Military Officer even those inferior to my CAP Grade?  If so, how can I logically salute the new 2LT on Post while I am wearing my CAP uniform, but the following day have him salute me as I walk around wearing Major on my Army Uniform??  I think that was the logic that either you or the other CG guy has brought to the discussion.


--------
This thread is going nowhere, we all know that we salute those wearing something superior to what we wear.  Those that go out of their way not to, for shame.       

[PaulR]

markh,

I dont think that it is a matter of insignia.  I am sure that we are easily identifiable to the RM side, between the old style BDUs and the screaming blue insignia.  In my opinion, it is not about the insignia... it seems to be about a growing sense of "entitlement" that I see growing everywhere.

This is a volunteer organization.  The purpose for coming into it(again, in my opinion) is to serve the community without any expectation of compensation, whether it be in the form of some sort of pension, health benefits,  Unit Citations, and prospect getting as many salutes as deliverable from as many people as possible.  It is about selfless contribution to people who need us during what could be the most chaotic experiences of their lives.  It is about teaching our young people about aerospace, leadership, and perhaps offering a glimpse of what military life is about.  

This whole topic(of the thread) is the number two reason I want to serve this fine organization as an NCO.   I believe that education cadets on proper customs and courtesies is important, and that the practice of them being seen by our junior members is most beneficial.  With that being said, I am feeling that some of what is being said here is about stroking individual egos over instructing our cadets and establishing esprit de corps.

[PaulR]

Grow up.  Do what you want, but remember there are many in CAP who have Federal Commissions, and may call you out to embarrass you the next time you meet. 

And that would be a sign of very bad leadership...  To purposely embarrass a subordinate in public is not the way to go about it... 

I agree... CAP members should most definitely salute higher CAP ranked officers and armed forces officers.  Period.  Personnel who do not should be PRIVATELY counseled on the matter.  Repeat offenders should be documented.   But please do not expect EM members from the RM to render them to CAP officers(that is not what you were saying, is it?).

In my opinion, a RM Second Lieutenant outranks a CAP Colonel any day of the week.   With you being a RM Major and a CAP officer performing both duties on your Army base, you clearly have a unique situation and none of us here should advise you on what to do.

[Smokey]

Timbo,


I am on the same sheet of music as you.   As I've said in previous posts.

Yet......I have not gotten an answer from the who so vehemently oppose saluting.

I would truly love to hear from those of you against saluting as to   ...WHY.
I find the excuses amusing, but they hide the true reason why you are so against saluting.  

I am proud of my association with CAP and it's relationship as the AF Aux. I am proud to be a patriotic American who, when in uniform, conform to the customs and courtesies of my parent (AF) and in civilian clothes I remove my hat during the National Anthem and place my hand over my heart.  I respect and honor EVERY member in the real military.  I snappily return EVERY salute rendered to me and I properly salute those who are above me in rank.  To do any less would dishonor their service.

Although I have never served in the real military I come from a proud military background.  My father was a Sgt/tank commander in the Army in WWII.  My grandfather's cousin wore five stars and went on to be the POTUS.  I will honor the uniform and rank properly EVERY time.

[PaulR]

 My grandfather's cousin wore five stars and went on to be the POTUS.

You are related to Pres Eisenhower?       That man is a huge hero of mine!

I did not see anyone in this thread who is opposed to saluting... have you? 

[JayT]

 My grandfather's cousin wore five stars and went on to be the POTUS.

You are related to Pres Eisenhower?       That man is a huge hero of mine!

I did not see anyone in this thread who is opposed to saluting... have you? 

Nope, but for a CAP member to decided to rewrite the rules of saluting 'out of respect' is a little out there.......

[winterg]

As members of CAP we are in a very unique position.  MANY of our membership, despite what they wear on their CAP uniform, are entitled to a salute.  For many of us, myself included, this is our only opportunity to continue wearing the uniform we love so much.  How can any of us really tell or distinguish who should or should not be saluted?  The saluting issue is never as important as the work we do.

I believe that too many individuals see saluting as an obligation instead of an opportunity.

It is an opportunity to show solidarity to another person who has put aside their private life for the betterment of our nation.  The rank structure aside, a uniform is supposed to bind us together into a cohesive whole that is stronger than our individual parts.  Maybe we should look at the whole situation as more of a fraternal greeting.

[DogCollar]

Seriously?  Don't get all patriotic and philisophical about this stuff. It truly isn't that big of a deal.  Take it from someone spent almost 15 years in and around the military in Washington DC while in a CAP uniform.  Yes, sometimes military folks look at us weird because they don't quite understand who or what we are.  But the moment a CAP Lt Col salutes an Air Force 2d Lt you'll throw the whole universe out of whack.

Simply say "hey, how's it going" and return a salute if they initiate.  If their grade is higher than yours, salute.

That's not only the common sense thing to do, its the right thing to do.

Ah yes...the time/space continuum!!  We wouldn't want the universe collapsing in on itself!  That would be a bad thing !!  Why do I feel like driving a DeLorean and inventing something called a flux capacitor??

Seriously, when in doubt...salute!  It's along the same philosophy of "it's often better to ask for forgiveness then to ask for permission." 

Merry Christmas, Happy Hanakkah, Kwanza and Seasons Greetings!!!

[James Shaw]

A simple rule for saluting!

Salute to show Respect.
Return and get Respect.

I will personally salute anyone in uniform whether SDF or RM for their service!

I would join the CG if I were not to old!!

[Stonewall]

In my opinion, a RM Second Lieutenant outranks a CAP Colonel any day of the week.   With you being a RM Major and a CAP officer performing both duties on your Army base, you clearly have a unique situation and none of us here should advise you on what to do.

Except for the many many CAP senior members who are current, retired, reserve and national guard officers.   

Wouldn't that be hillarious.  An AF 2d Lt dressing down a CAP Captain who also happens to be an Army captain; an AF captain chewing out a CAP Lt Col who is a Lt Col due to their retired status as a Navy Commander....Nice.

See, to alleviate the confusion, it is best to maintain a single standard.  Let the RM do what they want, that's cool.  But we should stick to our own standard.

[Edit] 

I was just looking back at my previous squadron and counted at least 10 RM officers, all of whom held ranks above captain, and we met on a military base.  And I gaurantee none of them, while in a CAP uniform, would have chewed out an enlisted guy, NCO or junior officer if they didn't get a salute.  Nor would they have saluted a junior military officer.

Currently, I think we have 3 or 4 RM officers (retired or otherwise).  Again, there needs to be a standard.

[Flying Pig]

When I went to a Level 1 course in 1997, (this was before ANYTHING was online and we had a weekend Level 1 class)  a CAP captain taught that our rank was equivalent  to military rank and that military enlisted and lower ranking officers were required to render customs and courtesies to CAP just as they were to CAP.  And that if they didnt, it needed to be addressed on the spot.

Being a former cadet, and having been out of the Marines for about 3 months at the time of the class, I felt the need to respectfully interject.  So those people are out there.

[Ford73Diesel]

 My grandfather's cousin wore five stars and went on to be the POTUS.

You are related to Pres Eisenhower?       That man is a huge hero of mine!

I did not see anyone in this thread who is opposed to saluting... have you? 

Nope, but for a CAP member to decided to rewrite the rules of saluting 'out of respect' is a little out there.......

At no point did I pull out a CAPP 151 that i rewrote and say "here is the new CAPP 151" so to say that i rewrote the rules of saluting is a little out there. I informed you of my opinion, made a suggestion, nothing more.

And I think that most officers are mature enough that if a CAP Lt Col saluted them one day, the next time a CAP Lt Col didn't salute they wouldn't "dress them down" or make a scene out of it. 


With that said, I wish everyone have a safe and enjoyable holiday, and remember to think about our servicemen and women overseas who cant be with their families because of the sacrifices they make for our safety.

[tarheel gumby]

WIWAC we were taught when around the RM that "If it moves Salute it, if it doesn't move pick it up, if it is to big-Paint it" I remember my first Level 1 class way way back in 1986, it was taught @ PAFB. We were told that the RM was NOT required to Salute or render other courtesies, but that they may do so and that we as CAP members were required to return the Honor in kind in a professional military manner.

[Smokey]

PaulR,

Yep    Pres Eisenhower is my grandfather's cousin. 

So much for nepotism....my dad only made sgt in the Army---so much for his father's cousin having 5 stars !!

And all it has gotten me is Major in CAP !!!

[PaulR]

As members of CAP we are in a very unique position.  MANY of our membership, despite what they wear on their CAP uniform, are entitled to a salute.  For many of us, myself included, this is our only opportunity to continue wearing the uniform we love so much.  How can any of us really tell or distinguish who should or should not be saluted?  The saluting issue is never as important as the work we do.

I believe that too many individuals see saluting as an obligation instead of an opportunity.

It is an opportunity to show solidarity to another person who has put aside their private life for the betterment of our nation.  The rank structure aside, a uniform is supposed to bind us together into a cohesive whole that is stronger than our individual parts.  Maybe we should look at the whole situation as more of a fraternal greeting.

Wow... well said!

[PaulR]

PaulR,

Yep    Pres Eisenhower is my grandfather's cousin. 

I would have loved to have spent 10 minutes with the Pres...  There are not too many people who excelled in both the military and political arenas like him.