CSAG May Meeting Agenda

[Ned]

Lots of varied opinions. But keep in mind the BoG meeting was last week. Did any of this pass?

This is a CSAG agenda, not a BoG item.  We didn't discuss PD or promotions at the BoG meeting.

[RiverAux]

So, since they don't have any authority, it wouldn't mean much yet even if approved. 

[JeffDG]

So far, Gen Carr has accepted their advice on everything they've offered it upon.

[BillB]

Dang Ned, nobody ever said I was a genus

[RogueLeader]

Even if the suggestion to radically restructure our grade structure was approved; it would cost a serious amount of money to update the promotions module, CAPF 2, design the appropriate grade insignia, get Vanguard to make it, us to buy and sew it.  Is the problem we have so bad that we need to deal with that huge expense?  I really don't think so

[Storm Chaser]

Even if the suggestion to radically restructure our grade structure was approved; it would cost a serious amount of money to update the promotions module, CAPF 2, design the appropriate grade insignia, get Vanguard to make it, us to buy and sew it.  Is the problem we have so bad that we need to deal with that huge expense?  I really don't think so

Granted, there would be a transition period and regs and eServices would need to be updated, but I don't see the big expense for our members. Anyone currently holding a particular rank would most likely retain it. Only new members or those not having been promoted yet would start at these Flight Officer ranks and Vanguard already have them in stock. The main difference for current members would be the requirements to promote to the next rank.

[Storm Chaser]

I think that instead of adding Flight Officer ranks for all senior members, they should just increase the promotion requirements to include additional PD, time-in-grade and time-in-service. I support making the promotion to 2d Lt a bit harder, but not necessarily making it the 4th rank in our officer rank structure. If promoting SM directly to 2d Lt is not desirable, then I would support adding enlisted ranks instead. I believe CAP is already investigating and/or developing an NCO program, so why not have new members go through some of these ranks first. As an example, many police departments make their police officers go through NCO ranks first (i.e. Sgt) before promoting them to Lt.

[RiverAux]

I think that instead of adding Flight Officer ranks for all senior members, they should just increase the promotion requirements to include additional PD, time-in-grade and time-in-service.

This, combined with the elimination of all advanced promotions, really is the solution to the "problem" that CAP is said to have. 

[flyboy53]

I think that instead of adding Flight Officer ranks for all senior members, they should just increase the promotion requirements to include additional PD, time-in-grade and time-in-service.

This, combined with the elimination of all advanced promotions, really is the solution to the "problem" that CAP is said to have.

Instead of flight officer, I would rather see one or two ranks and titled "officer trainee." If flight officer is the way to go, then why not include the old rank of pilot officer for all those pilots that we recruit. That way there's an direct rank to offer incoming pilots. Otherwise, I'm really looking foward to seeing what the NCO program will look like -- and I hope that, too, starts to solve all of the issues.

[abdsp51]

IMO we need to fix the issues we currently have and before trying to implement or even suggest a drastic change such as this.

[ZigZag911]

NCO solution would be expensive -- getting "CAP distinctive" grade insignia made could prove costly.

FO insignia already exist, just a matter of manufacturing more of them.

[Private Investigator]

I got a few ideals re: senior promotions.

#1. Captain is max unless you go "Command" Speciality Track. Because a lot of CAP career Captains when asked, that is as far as they are interested and Captain sounds cool too.

#2. Have CAP enlisted ranks. (tie that in with our current PD program).

#3. Do what the USCG Aux do. Everyone is an Auxiliarist unless you are in a Command role.

[Private Investigator]

This, combined with the elimination of all advanced promotions, really is the solution to the "problem" that CAP is said to have.

I am really not sure why people have a problem with "advanced promotions". Doctors, lawyers and prior military officers. I do not have a problem with it.

[Eclipse]

IMO we need to fix the issues we currently have and before trying to implement or even suggest a drastic change such as this.

I have to agree. 

One does have to wonder why NHQ is even giving these kinds of things time and attention when we have so many other significant issues
to deal with.

Unless we're planning a full-scale reboot of the program, which I would be behind, then we just need to start enforcing the rules we already
have, working the program as already defined, and if we ever get to a proficient level with >that<, then we can say we have time to worry about
the nit-picky stuff.

Most of the nit-picky stuff only becomes an issue when commanders and staff fail to do their jobs properly.  That's the place NHQ should be
spending their time and attention - telling people, in short sentences, to "lead, follow, or get out of the way".

[abdsp51]

IMO we need to fix the issues we currently have and before trying to implement or even suggest a drastic change such as this.

I have to agree. 

One does have to wonder why NHQ is even giving these kinds of things time and attention when we have so many other significant issues
to deal with.

Unless we're planning a full-scale reboot of the program, which I would be behind, then we just need to start enforcing the rules we already
have, working the program as already defined, and if we ever get to a proficient level with >that<, then we can say we have time to worry about
the nit-picky stuff.

Most of the nit-picky stuff only becomes an issue when commanders and staff fail to do their jobs properly.  That's the place NHQ should be
spending their time and attention - telling people, in short sentences, to "lead, follow, or get out of the way".

Honestly I think we need to tweek the PD aspect, not trying to add new grades to the cycle.  I think we all can agree that there needs to be a review of the promotion stuff not have it hammpered by extra crap or redone.

[RiverAux]

This, combined with the elimination of all advanced promotions, really is the solution to the "problem" that CAP is said to have.

I am really not sure why people have a problem with "advanced promotions". Doctors, lawyers and prior military officers. I do not have a problem with it.

I don't have a problem with them, just have a problem with giving them advanced rank based on skills that often can't actually be utilized by CAP.  And if the problem is people not knowing CAP culture, regulations, etc., and ensuring that CAP members of similar rank have similar experience and abilities, then advanced promotions actually work against the goal of having everyone on the same page.

Prior military officers are great, but they don't know diddly about CAP and their prior military experience really doesn't given them any insight into what it means to be a CAP officer other than already knowing some basic customs and courtesies.  As I've often said, the Navy submarine engineer who served in the 50s has no special value to CAP. 

[NCRblues]

Honestly I think we need to tweek the PD aspect, not trying to add new grades to the cycle.  I think we all can agree that there needs to be a review of the promotion stuff not have it hammpered by extra crap or redone.

Like I said in my post earlier on this thread, instead of adding more hops or more grades, we need to fix the current system that we have. It can and does work when the rules and spirit of the system are followed. It fails when the rules and spirit of the system are ignored or "pencil whipped".

As an example from my Wing that JUST occurred ~ A member came up for Lt. Col just recently past and he put in for promotion (how he got to Major is another story but..). The unit commander was brand new, so all she did was review the eServices of said member and seen all the boxes were checked and sent it on to the Wing Commander as she did not want to make someone "so senior angry". The Wing Commander was brand new and still in his year of "probation" and did not want to cause ripples and maybe get someone angry at him, so he approves it and sends it on to Region. Region clicks OK and bang we have a new Lt. Col. This member does not deserve to be even a Major let alone a Lt. Col. He does nothing, attends no functions and never ever leaves the good ol boy flying club squadron he belongs to. His son is a Cadet in a unit down the road and never ever functions with the CP at all. Drops him off and leaves, or sits in the car and does nothing as the units CP crashes and burns do to lack of help from Seniors. He honestly makes me sick and it really bugs me that he was promoted. What is even worse is everyone in the Wing acknowledges he should not have been promoted but yet he still was.

The above situation is exactly why we need to put real teeth into the promotion system for BOTH parties involved (the requester and approving authority). Commanders need to be able to say "NO" and not be afraid that this member who does not deserve a promotion  cant cause to much problems for them. At the same time, a time limit and articulated reasons for disapproval needs to be mandated to be given to the requester. Something like 30-60 days for a reason for denial be provided in writing to the requester, and also sent onto the next level of command. If the member feels wronged, the next level appoints a review board of facts, looks at both sides and issue a recommendation  to that level of command for upholding the lower decision or overturning it.

Enforce the system we have, don't just add things and hope to god it makes things better, because we all know it wont!! Make it a fair system for all with checks and balances. Take away the fear and the misunderstanding of what a promotion in CAP is and we can fix it!!

[Storm Chaser]

After reading the previous post, I wonder if maybe CAP should implement an annual performance evaluation. That would prevent things like described above, where a new commander approves a promotion base solely on eServices. An annual performance evaluation used for promotions would also ensure that the member being considered has actually performed well for the preceding years as opposed to just recently showing up after not having done much for years and then expecting to be promoted because the time-in-grade requirement was met.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

The thing that is so horrible about the promotion system is its arbitrariness.

I have posted my example of my getting the unlubricated sideways shaft.  NCRblues posts one from the opposite end of the spectrum.

And what happens if you try to complain officially?  Too often a 2B for those who do not let sleeping dogs lie.  I've seen it and wouldn't be surprised if I end up facing one soon.

I have about as much trust in the CAP IG machinery to handle it effectively as I would in Major Frank Burns to perform a heart transplant.

I got a few ideals re: senior promotions.

#1. Captain is max unless you go "Command" Speciality Track. Because a lot of CAP career Captains when asked, that is as far as they are interested and Captain sounds cool too.

A lot of those "career Captains" are not that way by choice.

#2. Have CAP enlisted ranks. (tie that in with our current PD program).

I would prefer warrant officers, but no problem with that suggestion either.

#3. Do what the USCG Aux do. Everyone is an Auxiliarist unless you are in a Command role.

Flotilla Commanders, Vice Flotilla Commanders etc. are all still Auxiliarists in the eyes of the Coast Guard.  I was a Vice Flotilla Commander, which wears an adapted Lt j.g. insignia.  My status as an Auxiliarist did not change when I put the half-piston ring/silver bar with blue "A" on.

[Eclipse]

After reading the previous post, I wonder if maybe CAP should implement an annual performance evaluation.

Should they?  Yes.

Can they? Not really.

Far too many members serve in the "you're lucky I showed up at all" mode, and as soon as you raise expectations, or give them any negative feedback, they
either disengage, or get disgruntled.  Couple that with a relatively low percentage of Commanders with any management experience whatsoever and
you have the petri dish of attrition.

Attrition that I have argue we probably need, but we would likely lose a fair number of good people in the mix as well.