Military saluting CAP?

[RRLE]

Here is a poll I did a few years ago on whether or not people personally had seen such behavior.  As expected, it was pretty rare.

Based on your poll, I wouldn't call the behavior common but it isn't rare either.

9.1% of your poll saw the behavior. Extend that to CAP as a whole. How many thousands of incidents does 9.1% represent? I guess it is possible that more then 1 member saw the behavior but not likely.

And a whooping 32.6%, just shy of 1/3, saw your 3 egregious behaviors. That suggests the problem is bigger then most CAPTalkers want to admit.

[RiverAux]

Yes, 32% saw such behavior in the previous FIVE years.  Now, I think its safe to say that those that did see it probably only saw one instance.  So, in other words, roughly 94% of the respondents probably didn't see any such behavior in any given year.  That is what I would call rare (even accounting for some statistical slop). 

I bet that on average you would find a worse officer-behaving badly observation rate in the real military. 

[bflynn]

I can't see any poll results, but I'm not confident of the polling methodology.  I see at least four issues with it in terms of population size, population selection, self-selection and a leading question.

In any case - I've never heard of this, nor personally encountered any member who I thought might be prone to anything like this.

I probably got more salutes going in/out of base based on the car we drove.  In the late 80s, a Jetta was considered an "officer's car" so it was saluted all the time just based on a 2 second judgement by the gate guard.

[lordmonar]

I have been in CAP for 10+ years now......I have spent my entire CAP time ON MILITARY bases.......and while I have heard the stories......it is always "A friend of my brothers's second cousin once heard a ex-military type say" sort of a story.

Now....I don't doubt that it happens......hell it happens in the military (Officers going out of their way to catch some poor airman off guard so he can demand a salute)....(at Keesler back in the 80's the base commander would trool the student areas in his staff car with two STA's on board just so they could jump out and gig the students for being unattentive......this happened to me and we usually had at least one student in my squadron get gigged this way per week).

So......as I was saying.....I am sure it happens.....I know that it makes us look bad.....and we should stop it when it happens.....but by no means is this a pandemic that going to destroy CAP.  By no means do we need to 2b someone for it. (at least for a first offense).

And to add oil to fire.....you have real life military people who would make sure that their subordinates saluted CAP officers....even when they knew they did not have to.

This is a non-issue.....move along.

[AngelWings]

I have been in CAP for 10+ years now......I have spent my entire CAP time ON MILITARY bases.......and while I have heard the stories......it is always "A friend of my brothers's second cousin once heard a ex-military type say" sort of a story.

Now....I don't doubt that it happens......hell it happens in the military (Officers going out of their way to catch some poor airman off guard so he can demand a salute)....(at Keesler back in the 80's the base commander would trool the student areas in his staff car with two STA's on board just so they could jump out and gig the students for being unattentive......this happened to me and we usually had at least one student in my squadron get gigged this way per week).

So......as I was saying.....I am sure it happens.....I know that it makes us look bad.....and we should stop it when it happens.....but by no means is this a pandemic that going to destroy CAP.  By no means do we need to 2b someone for it. (at least for a first offense).

And to add oil to fire.....you have real life military people who would make sure that their subordinates saluted CAP officers....even when they knew they did not have to.

This is a non-issue.....move along.

+1.

[Major Lord]

Polls are primarily a tool designed to change attitudes, not to actually reflect them. Scientific polls just use better methodology. In scientific polls, a large number of people have stated that they have seen ghosts, UFO's, post- mortem Elvis, and scientific proof of anthropogenic climate change. Polls are wonderful statistical tools, created by design to include outlying opinions and beliefs from people who we know in advanced, are deranged, ignorant, and motivated by radical ideology ( of one type or another). Taking policy action based on unproven folk lore and anecdotes is irrational.

Aside from this, I have never seen any incidence of a CAP Senior Member failing to salute an Officer ( or anyone else in uniform of virtually any kind) and having the Officer receiving the salute, fail to return it. Maybe some of you have seen Officers doing so, but I have never come across one that rude.

Once at Travis, we had the SP's show up at our Squadron meeting, because a Cadet Officer's mother allegedly demanded the gate guards salute her badger. Fortunately, as it happens, the culprit(s) were not CAP people, just JROTC people coming in to go shopping. I told the SP's if they could find the Cadet or parent on our SQ, they were welcome to hang them from the front gate  Pour encourager les autres.

Major Lord

[CAP4117]

Once at Travis, we had the SP's show up at our Squadron meeting, because a Cadet Officer's mother allegedly demanded the gate guards salute her badger.

her...badger?

[Eclipse]

Once at Travis, we had the SP's show up at our Squadron meeting, because a Cadet Officer's mother allegedly demanded the gate guards salute her badger.

her...badger?

You see a badger, you better salute!

[CAP4117]

I'll remember that if I go to any University of Wisconsin sporting events.

[lordmonar]

Once at Travis, we had the SP's show up at our Squadron meeting, because a Cadet Officer's mother allegedly demanded the gate guards salute her badger.

her...badger?

You see a badger, you better salute!

Honey Badger Rates a Salute!

[RRLE]

So, in other words, roughly 94% of the respondents probably didn't see any such behavior in any given year.

I still would not call 6% rare. Especially if you multiple it against the CAP membership. I don't have that number off hand but if 6% of the membership sees such an incident each year, then how hundreds to maybe thousands of such incidents are happening each year. And only a small fraction of those will make it to the Internet or be reported to 'higher authorities' whether CAP or the military high command. The rest are just passed around as scuttlebutt.

[Eclipse]

So, in other words, roughly 94% of the respondents probably didn't see any such behavior in any given year.

I still would not call 6% rare. Especially if you multiple it against the CAP membership.

You can't, since there is no way to know who even knew about the survey, nor how they determined the sampling, and as is usually the case with surveys, those with a point to make are the ones more inclined to respond.  This could have been 100 members who haven't been active in 10 years, 100 members who have never been on a military base in their lives, or a hundred members on a base where the relationship is (or was) strained.

If ten of the hundred surveyed saw the same incident, that would be a 10% response. 

The extrapolation you suggest would be about 3600 members.  I'd find it hard to believe that there were 3600 members in CAP who even had an opportunity to salute someone in the military in a given year, let alone witnessed an abuse like this.  By far the vast majority of members
never get anywhere near a base, let alone military officers.

I've been in for 12+ years, most of the time with an office and an encampment on an active military base, and have never seen, or heard, of this kind of behavior ever, beyond the apocryphal wives tales.

It's also disappointing / indicative / interesting that somehow one theoretical goober who acts like an idiot is supposed to be representative of the entirety of CAP, as if no one in the military acts in a way that discredits their respective service. 

I don't buy the story, but one goof does not an organization make, on either side of the situation.

[Chappie]

For the record....here is the letter sent out from the National Commander when this first came to light:

14 February 2011

Wing and Region Commanders

We've all heard the stories concerning Civil Air Patrol (CAP) officers on military installations "demanding" that they receive the rendering of a military salute from junior ranking officers and enlisted military members. We make jokes concerning the intelligence or – lack of intelligence – of the offending member and we express how this type of behavior is an embarrassment to all – both CAP members and military members. We would like to believe that this is a rare occurrence. So why is there anecdotal evidence that these "encounters" continue? Are these occurrences caused by a lack of knowledge or are they deliberate acts designed to assuage personal "issues/motivations" of the offending member?

A recent occurrence is discussed in the 17 January 2011 issue of Air Force magazine Online Forums section - between an enlisted military member and a CAP senior member officer. To paraphrase the CAP officer said, "Do you see this oak leaf? I am a major with the Air Force Auxiliary. You need to salute me..." TheMilitary member did not render a salute. Our concern is not the response of the military member, however. He was aware of CAP's relationship to the Air Force and declined to render the salute – which is a courtesy and is not a regulatory requirement. In accordance with Air Force Instruction 10-2701 Organization and Function of the Civil Air Patrol, "CAP uses a military style grade structure for both its Senior Members and Cadet Members. CAP grades for both cadet and senior members have no military standing, carry no authority over members of the Armed Forces, nor warrant the customs and courtesies afforded military members." This should be common knowledge to all CAP members.  However, as members of the Civil Air Patrol, we are deeply concerned about the behavior of one of our officers.

CAP is a federally chartered non-profit organization of civilian volunteers. Yes, we are the Air Force's Auxiliary but as civilian volunteers we are not members of the military. CAP Regulation 35-10, Ethics Policy states – "Our nation expects and deserves a high standard of professional conduct. The American public entrusts CAP with their safety and welfare and with the character development of their children. Our official core values are: Integrity, Volunteerism, Excellence and Respect. These values represent a cultural commitment within CAP to practice basic honesty, to give of one's self for the betterment of humanity, to deliver top quality services, and to treat others fairly."

CAP promotes teamwork and high standards of personal conduct by granting cadets and senior members the privilege of wearing an Air Force-style uniform. It bears repeating – the privilege. The uniform and the related traditions of rendering military customs and courtesies distinguish our cadets from ordinary youth and identify our members with the United States Air Force. Our cadets are taught not only the proper wear of the uniform but also the proper rendering of the salute to our members, and as a courtesy, to military members in uniform. Have we "dropped" the ball with our senior members?

page 2

This brings us back to the actions of the CAP major who requested a salute from a military member. The rank of major implies that this individual is not "new" to the CAP program. Yes, you can receive a special or professional appointment to the grade of CAP major based on experience or unique skills, but normally when you see an individual in CAP wearing oak leaf clusters that implies this person has been "around" a while and should be very familiar with the CAP rank structure and the military rank structure. So was the "request" for a salute by the CAP member from a military member an honest mistake based on a lack of knowledge or a deliberate act of a personal nature? Only the individual involved can provide the answer to this question.

We can't know the heart of the individual involved in this particular situation, nor can we totally control and insure individual compliance with governing directives that address professional and ethical behavior of our members and the customs and courtesies of the military hand salute. However, we can insure that this mistake is not repeated because of a lack of knowledge. CAP members must behave honestly and ethically at all times and with all people. "Individuals will not take unfair advantage of anyone through manipulation, intimidation, concealment, abuse of privileged information, misrepresentation of material facts or any other unfair practice." (CAP's Ethical Standards).

This article is not intended to be overly critical or harsh but to convey very clearly that the behavior of this senior member is not acceptable. The challenge is for all of us, cadets and senior members, to continue to exhibit the highest standards of professional and personal conduct at all times. CAP has a distinguished history of excellence. By nature, the public has a short memory. We cannot allow our hard-earned professional image to be tainted by the conduct of a few members behaving badly. Incorrect behavior must be addressed at all times by every member – with proper respect. We are the Civil Air Patrol! Let's conduct ourselves accordingly!

AMY S. COURTER            LOU E. WALPUS
Major General, CAP        Chief Master Sergeant, CAP
National Commander      Command Chief

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Again, General Courter's directive was, to me, an overreaction to an unsubstantiated incident.  Just because it was in the Air Force Times doesn't mean it is factual.  It could well have been an airman with an axe to grind (for whatever reason) against CAP.

What irritated me far worse was one of the AFT responses to the "story," where an airman said that when s/he was in BMT, his/her MTI said that if they were to encounter CAP members, IGNORE THEM.

Quite unprofessional.

[Persona non grata]

sigh

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

sigh

If your sigh is intended to indicate fatigue with this topic, I agree 100%.

[RRLE]

You can't, since there is no way to know who even knew about the survey, nor how they determined the sampling, and as is usually the case with surveys, those with a point to make are the ones more inclined to respond. 

Keep in mind, the survey wasn't mine. The survey originator tried to use the results of the survey to justify his assertion that the situation was rare. If he is going to claim the results are legitimate to justify his 'rare' asssertion, then he must also live by the same simple mulitplication of 6% times the membership yielding several thousand incidents a year.

I tend to think all such surveys are suspect at best and bogus at worst and I don't know why people insist on running them. But as they say, 'live by the sword, die by the sword.'

[AirDX]

the Cadet who was killed at encampment by drinking coke and eating Mentos

What? Holy crap, I need to go do a safety powerpoint on that!

[Major Lord]

And don't forget the dangers of feeding pop-rocks to seagulls! 100% of the respondents in my poll claim to have personally seen these events!

Major Lord
p.s. The term "Badgers" was what we called any Cadets  going to Cadet Survival School. It's not meant to be pejorative; Badgers are tough, yes, even the sweetly named "honey badger" ( This is not a female Cadet you are dating, but an actual critter)

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

the Cadet who was killed at encampment by drinking coke and eating Mentos

What? Holy crap, I need to go do a safety powerpoint on that!

You're about three decades too late.

What really happened was that Mikey from the Life cereal adverts (young'uns, it's probably on YouTube) ate a load of Pop Rocks/Cosmic Candy and slugged down a six of Pepsi afterward.  His stomach blew up, like Sir John Hurt in Alien but without the Alien.

Actually, John Gilchrist ("Mikey") is alive and well today and, at last note, working in radio sales in Manhattan.

That shows the veracity of rumour and innuendo.