Do you think CAP is part of the military and why

[PaulR]

They do carry guns.....usually lots of them!  hen I was in the Marines our Corpsman carried weapons also.   We often said our Corpsman was the best Marine in the Platoon! He rocked!

I carried an M4 Carbine and an M9 9mm during my time over there.

[RRLE]

Under Title 10 of the US Code, the following branches of service constitute the US Armed Forces:

1.  US Army
2.  US Marines
3.  US Coast Guard
4.  US Navy
5.  US Air Force
6.  US Nautical Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration(NOAA)
7.  US Public Health Service(USPHS)

Notice that the last two branches do not bear arms, but they do wear a Navy style uniform.  No other branch or organization is listed, thus if they are not listed here, they are not part of the military.

Per 10 USC 101(4) only the first 5 are the Armed Forces.

Per 10 USC 101(5) the Uniformed Services are the Armed Forces (first 5) plus the commissioned corps of the last two.

The differences are significant.

[Fubar]

The differences are significant.

Especially if you're getting shot at.

[PaulR]

Thanks RRLE I agree with you.  I picked the broader of the two for a reason... the CAP is not even listed as a uniformed service.  It is an awesome volunteer organization with a huge and important role.  A far cry from an Uniformed Service, much less an Armed Service. 

The "being shot at thing" is a bit unfair... I know a few PHS members who earned campaign medals while in the Public Health Service. 

[Smithsonia]

Not that history is always pertinent in contemporary discussions - but I think, in this case it is.

This argument/debate/discussion - predates CAP by 10 years or so. In the mid- to late- thirties there were a number of Aero Clubs (all civilian based) and State Defense Forces (Auxiliary for the National Guard or rather military in nature) being formed all over the country. More than half the states had one or both. Each claimed duties and callings similar to CAP today. Each was folded into CAP during WW2. Each was a building block of what we now know as CAP.

The Civilian Work Corps of the New Deal had the same controversy. The Civil Defense Authority of WW2 through the early 60s did too. How much military? How much Civilian?

WW2 ended the arguments for a time. All of these services had military organizational structures (As Wildland Fire does today) Organization for all these groups has been military in nature. All these civilian organizations have had more and then less military influence acting upon them. All of these organizations reflect greater societies concerns or antipathy for the military - and move according to the changing times. For instance: More military in WW2. Less military post Vietnam, etc.

In other words: This discussion is good. This argument is necessary. This debate will go on without end. This conversation is an integral part of a vital process. This conversation has no "right" answer. This debate is actually part of a "process" and not an eternal "goal".

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

The "being shot at thing" is a bit unfair... I know a few PHS members who earned campaign medals while in the Public Health Service.

Since you are a Coastie and the USPHS keeps you well and patches you up, I'm not surprised.  As I understand it, when attached to the USCG, USPHS officers wear USCG uniform with USPHS insignia and are subject to the UCMJ, just as the CG is.  Were those campaign medals earned while your USPHS colleagues were attached to CG vessels or stations?

Even the term "auxiliary" has different meanings depending on who you are and who you ask:

The RAF has the Royal Auxiliary Air Force (RAuxAF), whose members are definitely military.

http://www.hmforces.co.uk/Join_The_Forces/articles/49-royal-air-force-reserves-rafr-and-rauxaf-eligibility

However, the Royal Fleet Auxiliary is not military, even though they support the Royal Navy:

http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/operations-and-support/royal-fleet-auxiliary/basic-facts/index.htm

The Royal Canadian Air Force called its reserve squadrons (who flew Sabres, T-33's, B-25's and DH Vampires) "auxiliary squadrons" until the 1970s, when they became part of the CF Primary Reserve.

http://www.journal.forces.gc.ca/vo7/no3/views-vues-01-eng.asp

My point?  The term "auxiliary" can be used in either military or civilian contexts.

[wingnut55]

The Mexican military considers CAP border flights as US Military

[HGjunkie]

The Mexican military considers CAP border flights as US Military

Not sure I would believe anything the Mexican govt. says...

[a2capt]

Not sure I would believe anything the Mexican govt. says...

I'm not even sure the Mexican Government believes the Mexican Government.

[wingnut55]

so the CAP guys flying Green Flag are only pretending to be flying simulated combat missions, in a simulated war.

[FlyTiger77]

so the CAP guys flying Green Flag are only pretending to be flying simulated combat missions, in a simulated war.

It is quite possible, and common, to participate in a military training exercise and not be a part of the military (at least in my understanding of the word 'part').

It is highly unlikely that contractors who portray civilians on the battlefield during Army mission readiness exercises consider themselves part of the military, regardless of the fact that they are even being paid by the military to participate.

[N Harmon]

so the CAP guys flying Green Flag are only pretending to be flying simulated combat missions, in a simulated war.

Pretending? No. But that no more makes the CAP guys military than the participation in Operation Robin Sage makes hundreds of civilian volunteers military.

[wingnut55]

All very true, we are really military contractors, NHQ gets the money (For  operation costs) and we Volunteer our time dressed up in Air Force "style" uniforms (golf shirt excluded).

[bosshawk]

Bob: you must have missed the fact that the AF now has a uniform that includes a golf shirt.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Bob: you must have missed the fact that the AF now has a uniform that includes a golf shirt.

Interesting, I have been suggesting for a long time the same sort of adoption in the Army for years now. An all black BDU pant and the short sleeve PT shirt in the summer and the long sleeve shirt for the winter along with a windbreaker jacket, blousing black boots optional. Sometimes the BDU is impractical for cleaning toilets and filing paperwork. Laduh keep the BDU for field work, but make something more comfortable for the rest of the time spent in garrison. I have seen the Army "roadies" that set up for USO concerts and the sort wearing exactly this uniform, and it looked like such a comfortable idea that I couldn't imagine a better uniform to spend every single garrison day of the year wearing.

[billford1]

I prefer the BBDU trousers with the polo and reflective CAP cap.

[FreightDog]

Military Officers are commissioned by Congress. We wear the uniform and grade of military officers, we were authorized by congress in 1941. So the question is "are we commissioned officers" in the USAF Auxiliary, Civil Air Patrol? .

[bosshawk]

I think that this question has been asked at least 50 times in this thread and the steadfast answer is:   No, No, Hell No.  We are not "commissioned" in any sense of the word.

[Major Lord]

CAP Officers are not "Commissioned"  by Congress, our Grade is given to us by some guys in Alabama. You are confusing having a Congressionally chartered Corporation with individual "Commissioning" as Officers. The definition of "Commission" : "The act of granting certain powers or the authority to carry out a particular task or duty." There is no authority granted by virtue of being awarded Officer Status in CAP.

This is a separate question from " are we a part of the military". This question is ambiguous. For all general consideration, the answer is no, certainly in the way it has been constructed to imply that our commission and organization are on par with similarly attired people in the real military. On the other hand, CAP's and USAF's position on CAP is that we are "Part of the Air Force" as it applies to the Posse Comitatus Act, so the answer is very clearly "kinda-sorta." If the goal is to equate us with the nice ladies at AFEES and further, to say that these nice little old ladies should take up arms against a Haji invasion is just as preposterous as suggesting that CAP would, could or should do so. Nice try though. When we go to war with Canada, break out your CAP card to try and wrangle better POW status.

Major Lord

[Elioron]

It is highly unlikely that contractors who portray civilians on the battlefield during Army mission readiness exercises consider themselves part of the military, regardless of the fact that they are even being paid by the military to participate.

I actually know several people that are contracted to pose as opposition forces for military training exercises, and while most are prior service, none consider themselves to still be military - most very happily proclaim their civilian status.