Opening prayer in CAP meetings?

[jimmydeanno]

I was once an athiest, then agnostic, then a regular church-goer.  The whys are not relevant here.  I have never had a problem listening to others pray when I was not in the fold.  I just thought to myself how stupid they were praying to a man-made being.  I am actually more uncomfortable now with an imvocation then before.

Here is a question - What if there is no chaplain to give an invocation and the commander randomly selecs indviduals to give the invocation?  A senior member, with no connection to chaplain program gives a on-the-spot prayer.  Some of these prayers have gone upwards of three minutes.  Now - get this, the commander considers himself as non-religous.  He syas the only reason he does it is becuase it has always been done that way and he is concerend that many sneior members will leave if we do not have an invocation.

Thoughts?

Bottom line:  It's the Commander's call.  The regs are silent on this issue.  Prayer that is offered is not limited to members of the Chaplain Corps.

I recall seeing something about Army Infantry Officers and NCOs doing a prayer before going outside the wire and someone being offended by it...I can't recall where I saw it.  Seems similar to this situation.

[cap235629]

This thread coincidentally tracks with a facebook post I made yesterday.  Though not directly related I feel it is relevant because the basic tenet remains the same.  If we allow one faith we have to allow all.  How do you feel about a satanist offering a "prayer" before a meeting.  I am a religious person and feel that a prayer to start a meeting is way out of place.  When it happens I get REALLY uncomfortable.  I have never met a chaplain in CAP who does NOT structure the prayer/invocation to reflect his or her denominational/personal practice.  I am a Christian but I feel that invoking the name of Christ in a CAP setting is wrong and polarizing.  It takes ALL types.  I know members of CAP and the military who are Catholic, Protestant, Evangelical, Jewish, Muslim, Atheist, Buddhist, Pagan, Hindu and practitioners of Native American worship.  How can you NOT offend SOMEONE in a secular setting with a prayer/invocation?

Here is the post:

"We DO NOT live in a Christian Nation. Our founders, the majority of whom were Christians, realized that advocating one religion over another was wrong. In order to have the freedom to be able to practice their faith, they had to ensure that ALL faiths would have the same freedom. When European settlers came to the new world, they were fleeing religious oppression. They were not able to practice their faith as they believed because the nations they were fleeing had a different idea of what religion meant. Our nation is a secular nation founded solidly on the Judeo-Christian morals that our forefathers shared. Yes the majority of them were Christian but if they wanted a Christian nation, they would not have said "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" they would have said something to the effect of "This nation is a Christian Republic and all religions in conflict with the tenets of Christianity are prohibited". I am a devout Catholic. The governments of Europe discriminated against members of my church as late as the 20th Century. Because leaders in government didn't like Catholics, horrendous things were done to my ancestors. I thank God every day that I live in a nation where this can never happen again. By proclaiming we are a Christian Nation, we are setting the stage to revisit the horrors of the past upon non-Christians. The founders foresaw this and specifically prohibited it!"

[Chappie]

SNIP    How do you feel about a satanist offering a "prayer" before a meeting.  I am a religious person and feel that a prayer to start a meeting is way out of place.  When it happens I get REALLY uncomfortable.  I have never met a chaplain in CAP who does NOT structure the prayer/invocation to reflect his or her denominational/personal practice.  I am a Christian but I feel that invoking the name of Christ in a CAP setting is wrong and polarizing.  It takes ALL types.  I know members of CAP and the military who are Catholic, Protestant, Evangelical, Jewish, Muslim, Atheist, Buddhist, Pagan, Hindu and practitioners of Native American worship.  How can you NOT offend SOMEONE in a secular setting with a prayer/invocation?

It disappoints me to read the wide brush that is being used to paint Chaplains and their prayers.  There are a great many of us who take the composition of our target audience in mind when our prayers are offered...and do not invoke the Name of Jesus/Christ in our prayers (Sir, we have not had the privilege of meeting nor have you heard me offer a prayer in a informal/formal setting.  As mentioned in a previous post, in my 14 years as a CAP Chaplain there has never been a complaint regarding the content of my prayers -- and I have offered prayers at Squadron, Group, Wing, Region and National activities/events). 

There has been excellent training provided by the former Dep Director of the Chaplain Corps (before National terminated the position), who is a Col in the USAFR as well at our Region Chaplain Corps Staff Colleges regarding ministry in a pluralistic society.  I would hope that these occassions are no longer the norm.  I know that they have taken place in the past...and many of us have counseled our colleagues when we hear of the occurrances.  I can tell you one thing for certain...the  CAP Chaplain Corps that I joined in 1996 is not the same Chaplain Corps today -- and for that I am very glad.

[RRLE]

your non-beliefs are not a religion they are therefore not protected by the Constitution..

Just to put this issue to bed once and for all. The case involved a Maryland Notary Public who was denied a commission because he refused to profess a belief in God as required by state law.

TORCASO v. WATKINS, 367 U.S. 488 (1961)

We repeat and again reaffirm that neither a State nor the Federal Government can constitutionally force a person "to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion." Neither can constitutionally pass laws or impose requirements which aid all religions as against non-believers, 10 and neither can aid those religions based on a belief in the existence of God as against those religions founded on different beliefs.

This Maryland religious test for public office unconstitutionally invades the appellant's freedom of belief and religion and therefore cannot be enforced against him.

In a footnote to the unanimous decision, Justice Black wrote:

Among the religions in this country which do not teach what would generally be considered a belief in the existence of God are Buddhism, Taoism, Ethical Culture, Secular Humanism, and others.

After Toracaso, several of the Appelate Courts have expressly stated atheism a religion for constitutional purposes. Among them are:

1. United States Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit (May 13, 1977) Warner decision.

2. United States Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit. Kaufman v. McCaughtry (2005).

[Chappie]

To show the lengths that some of us take...here is a copy of an e-mail sent to Wing Chaplains within our Region:

From: <snip>
To: <snip>
CC: <Snip>
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 22:28:21 -0700


Fellow Colleagues,



It is that time of the year when many Wings are conducting their annual conferences.  It is always a great time to schedule a break-out session for your Chaplain Corps personnel and give them an overview of what is taking place as well as an opportunity to network with each other.



Just a reminder that Wing Conferences can be considered "mandated formations", in other words, members are there because they need to be there.  So our prayers and comments in General Assemblies or Banquets should reflect the audience.  In any Wing gathering, we find people of faith....people of no faith...and even some who don't want to be part of a faith-based group.  So we walk a fine line in what we share.  That is our challenge in ministering in a pluralistic environment.  I have used the Book of Prayer as a resource for formulating my prayers for CAP gatherings – especially those events which are not religious in nature.  This resource has been posted on the Pacific Region Chaplain Corps Web-site: 

                      http://hc.pcr.cap.gov/downloads/CAP_Book_of_Prayers.pdf



Many Wings incorporate a Memorial Service in their General Assembly.  It would be wise to discuss with your Wing Commander as to the format/content of the service.  Their idea or concept of how the Memorial Service should be conducted may differ than yours.  As the XXWG HC serving with Col <snip> and I discussed the Memorial Service.  He shared that he would like to see something that would not be lengthy, but dignified and would pay honor to the memory of those who served in the Wing.



So I came up with a format that included a powerpoint presentation that had the names of those who passed away in the months between the previous year's and current Wing Conference.  The slides were set to fitting music.  Before the final slide that featured an artist rendering of the "missing man formation" with the playing of "Taps", the room was called to attention.  The service was concluded with a prayer.   That format was used at the YEAR/NAME Conference at the request of Col <snip> and Col <snip>.  The names were arranged/displayed according to the Wings. 



That format was also used for the 2002 and 2003 National Conferences.   The Chief of Chaplains had the Region Commanders read each name and the name was displayed when read.  At the conclusion of the reading of the names from each region, the Region Commander placed a yellow rose in a vase.  Needless to say, the service was lengthy due to the sheer numbers of those who passed on and the reading of the names.  This has been modified in subsequent years.  At this year's National Board, the names were displayed by Region with appropriate musical background.  They were not read aloud.  This format shortened the time and still allowed for a dignified, honoring tribute to our fallen comrades.  Chaplain Woodard concluded the presentation with a word of prayer.



A few days ago, I was at the XXWG Conference.  Chaplain <snip> conducted a Memorial Service.  Following some pastoral comments, he read the names of those who had passed away.  He instructed those in attendance to stand when the name of a person was read who you either served with or knew.  He also instructed that at the conclusion of the reading of the names if you hadn't stood before, to join those standing.  A piper then played the song, "Going Home".  Chaplain <snip> then concluded with a prayer.  Having people stand in honor of those who had passed when their name was read was a wonderful tribute.



Trust that your Wing Conferences will be well attended by members of your Chaplain Corps.  These are great opportunities for practicing the "ministry of presence" as well as an opportunity to interact with those involved in the other missions/tasks of the Wing.



If you have any questions or ideas that you would like shared, drop me a line.


In Service Together,

Name
Ch, Lt Col, Name, CAP
Region HC
Civil Air Patrol

[tdepp]

^Well done, very respectful, common sense.  it takes everyone's beliefs and non-beliefs into account.  This agnostic Buddhist approves.   

[Major Carrales]

While I'm not convinced we need a Chaplain corps at all...

I'll tell you why we need a Chaplains corps, because those that do practice a faith need an advocate or even a "minister," as in "adinister" of their faith. 

For example, we had a topic on here about observing the Sabbath (either Jewish or Christian), dietary issues (such as keeping Kosher and Lenten observances) and religious holidays.  While we are a secular nation, we do have the personal Constitutionally protected right of "free exercise" of which a great many participate.  To deny the free exercise is not an option.

Thus, we have a Chaplaincy.  We also have two other concepts that run this into murky water, diversity and reality.  Ideally, we should have a Christian (Protestant), Christian (Catholic), Christian (Orthodox), Jewish (Reformed), Jewish (Orthodox), and Islamic cleric type Chalpains of which I am unfamiliar with the sects.  The reality is, we cannot have this in every single unit, that is the reality.  So, a unit with a Chaplain is not there to seek out conversions, but to see to the spiritial needs of the Unit.  It might mean that on some SARex a Protestant Chaplain seeks a Chatholic Mass for a Roman Catholic CAP member who desires it.  It might mean that the Chalpain insures that meals are provided in acordance with Kosher law for Jewish CAP members.  It might mean knowing how to offer secular counseling to all, including athiests and agnonsitcs.

Yes, we are not a "Church," but there are such needs to be addressed.  I submit that denying someone's Faith and Creed at CAP events is as distastful as submitting non-believers to a moment of silence or general invocation. 

That is how I see it.  A Chalpain should be a person of good moral character and amicibility....someone you should like to go to to just talk, if necessary.  The "Fire and Brimstone" types are welcome, but that will have to be left at home in favor of general understanding. 

I am sure I will be corrected by one of our esteemed Chaplains if I am incorrect in my above understanding of the CAP Chaplaincy.

[RiverAux]

While I'm not convinced we need a Chaplain corps at all...

I'll tell you why we need a Chaplains corps, because those that do practice a faith need an advocate or even a "minister," as in "adinister" of their faith. 

Why?  Why do CAP members need such religious support when the local softball league doesn't? 

Now, the military is one thing.  We are sending our folks all over the world for months if not years at a time and there is a legitimate need to try to provide some religious services for them.  It just isn't reasonable to ask someone to volunteer to join the military and then not have some sort of access to religious support for that time period.

The only thing about CAP that could lead to a need for religious support is possible exposure to incidents with horrible outcomes or possibly even losing friends in accidents involving CAP members.  But, if members are going to have problems with that there is no reason that they couldn't go see their own ministers, and quite frankly that owuld probably be more effective.

[Major Carrales]

Why?  really?  WOW!!!

Softball league?! Double WOW!!!  Is that where you place this organization? 

You've just lost all credibility on CAP matters with me for a long while.

The fact is that, in our area, we sometimes have to travel sometimes hundreds of miles from home where we have to spend the night...sometimes Friday, Saturday and Sundays for SARex and even REDCAP.  Some people have religious obligations they might wish to meet along with their communitarian ones.  By not providing at least the locations and options, via a Chaplaincy, for members to freely practice their religious oblications...we are in violation of the spirit of the law, and, likely the letter of it.

[RiverAux]

Well, softball league members often travel quite extensively over weekends as well and yet they don't need their own chaplains to get by.  I could have chosen any civic organization as an example of one that doesn't use chaplains.  Are you really saying that all civic organizations should have chaplains? 

I know how you hate this, but you wanted a comparable example -- The Coast Guard Auxiliary does not have a chaplain service.  Their members often travel a lot on weekends and on Sundays and I'm just about as likely to face some traumatic event where having a chaplain on scene might be helpful in the CG Aux as in CAP (an unlikely event in both organizations to be sure). 

The suggestion that we would be in violation of the law by not providing chaplains is just as absurd as the idea that having them violates the law.  If CAP doesn't provide a newspaper for everybody at base on the day of the SAREX are we violating freedom of the press as well?  Are we losing members by not giving those that wish to read them one to read?

[Major Carrales]

Well, softball league members often travel quite extensively over weekends as well and yet they don't need their own chaplains to get by.  I could have chosen any civic organization as an example of one that doesn't use chaplains.  Are you really saying that all civic organizations should have chaplains? 

I know how you hate this, but you wanted a comparable example -- The Coast Guard Auxiliary does not have a chaplain service.  Their members often travel a lot on weekends and on Sundays and I'm just about as likely to face some traumatic event where having a chaplain on scene might be helpful in the CG Aux as in CAP (an unlikely event in both organizations to be sure). 

The suggestion that we would be in violation of the law by not providing chaplains is just as absurd as the idea that having them violates the law.  If CAP doesn't provide a newspaper for everybody at base on the day of the SAREX are we violating freedom of the press as well?  Are we losing members by not giving those that wish to read them one to read?

What I find alarming about your comments is this "hate religion all all costs attitude" that you and several others had made most clear here.  Honestly, there are people who take their religion and religious practices seriously; you seem to want to take that from them.  Why?  What is it to you if someone chooses to pray or not?  Why does it "hurt you?"  Why must you seek to destroy it?  You seem to want to stomp on their rights in favor of a right you yourself don't seek to endulge in?

We have a chaplain's corps, so does the military and many other institutions.   We have had it for a long while and it has not caused anyone to "die," "be harmed" nor "lessen anyone in any way."  In fact, they likely are the embodiment of "free exercise" of religion.

Your freedom of the press argument is plainly ridiculous and your USCGAux one is more of your constant desire to morph us into their model.  I may join that organziation just to do the reverse and turn them into CAP.  I think I will not be met by the same civility you get here.

Ridiculous because it is so far off the mark.  If CAP was restricting the reading of certain newspapers for political reasons, that might would be a violation...if so, if it was banning religious practices the same assertion can be made.  Having a moment of silence or a short incovation is no such thing.

I'm not all that religious...but what you are suggesting is intolerance en re religion.  I cannot support that.  No more that I can support a mandated State religion or forced conversions.  I fall on the "inclusive" side of the adminsitration of one's individual rights...not the restrictive.

Amazing how you have taken the question of an invocation said at a meeting and turned it into a"kill the chaplaincy" point.  WOW!!!

[raivo]

"hate religion [at] all costs?"

strawman.jpg

[Major Carrales]

"hate religion [at] all costs?"

strawman.jpg

Really?  Why then all the animosity over chaplains?  The issue here today is not really about CAP meetings, but, based on all the drift, it is more "Religion vs Athieism."  Sorry, the strawmen may be there, but it is not I that am beating them.

[RRLE]

The Coast Guard Auxiliary does not have a chaplain service.

The CG Aux has tried a prototype chaplain service at least twice in the last ten years. Each test was run in 2 or 3 districts. And each test was a failure. It seems that a not insignificant number of the chaplains could not stop proselytizing and did not 'get' the whole non-sectarian thing.

FWIW - The topic of invocations at USCG Auxiliary meetings does come up as an issue from time-to-time. And it gets the same reaction you see here.

Major Carrales wrote:

Honestly, there are people who take their religion and religious practices seriously; you seem to want to take that from them.

And there is place for that free exercise, in their own homes and places of worship at a time meant for worship. There is a saying that your freedom to swing your arms ends at my nose. Likewise your right to free exercise ends at my ears - especially at a partially tax payer supported organization (which lets church/state separation into the discussion). If a member is expected as a part of his/her membership to attend meetings then he/she should not be subjected to religious observances. By all means, have your free exercise before the meeting begins.

[raivo]

Really?  Why then all the animosity over chaplains?  The issue here today is not really about CAP meetings, but, based on all the drift, it is more "Religion vs Athieism."  Sorry, the strawmen may be there, but it is not I that am beating them.

I haven't seen much "animosity."

I've seen some people saying that CAP doesn't need a chaplain program, and some people saying that CAP should have a chaplain program.

I've seen nobody saying that religion or atheism is better...

[Pumbaa]

I am so glad that God does not beleive in Atheists!

[RiverAux]

What I find alarming about your comments is this "hate religion all all costs attitude" that you and several others had made most clear here. 

Not sure where that is coming from.  Saying that there is no NEED for chaplains in CAP doesn't mean I hate religion any more than my opinion that CAP doesn't NEED helicopters means I hate rotary wing aircraft. 

your USCGAux one is more of your constant desire to morph us into their model.

You can't have it both ways.  You didn't like CAP being compared to a softball league, so I gave you the closest possible organization to what CAP is and what CAP does.  I really don't understand why you think I'm always trying to change CAP into CG Aux when I point out that some of the things they do could work well for CAP.  I don't care where good ideas come from.  Go to the CG Aux board and you'll see that I pretty regularly propose some CAP-like solutions to CG Aux situations. 

I'm not all that religious...but what you are suggesting is intolerance en re religion.

I'm really not sure how suggesting that CAP doesn't NEED chaplains is being intolerant of religion. 

Your freedom of the press argument is plainly ridiculous and your USCGAux one is more of your constant desire to morph us into their model.  I may join that organziation just to do the reverse and turn them into CAP.  I think I will not be met by the same civility you get here.

Ridiculous because it is so far off the mark.  If CAP was restricting the reading of certain newspapers for political reasons, that might would be a violation...if so, if it was banning religious practices the same assertion can be made.  Having a moment of silence or a short incovation is no such thing.

Well, you've got to fight absurdity with absurdity.  The suggestion that not providing chaplains could violate the law is just as nuts. 

[lordmonar]

Why?  really?  WOW!!!

Softball league?! Double WOW!!!  Is that where you place this organization? 

You've just lost all credibility on CAP matters with me for a long while.

The fact is that, in our area, we sometimes have to travel sometimes hundreds of miles from home where we have to spend the night...sometimes Friday, Saturday and Sundays for SARex and even REDCAP.  Some people have religious obligations they might wish to meet along with their communitarian ones.  By not providing at least the locations and options, via a Chaplaincy, for members to freely practice their religious oblications...we are in violation of the spirit of the law, and, likely the letter of it.

The point being...CAP has more or less the same contact hours as does say your local softball team.

If you are in so need of religious guidance on the 3-4 hours you are at CAP then maybe CAP is not for you.

As I stated before....got no problem with Chaplains or even prayers before meetings....but I don't really see the need for it and it opens yet another route for someone who does not know their limits to abuse his/her power.

[Major Carrales]

Why?  really?  WOW!!!

Softball league?! Double WOW!!!  Is that where you place this organization? 

You've just lost all credibility on CAP matters with me for a long while.

The fact is that, in our area, we sometimes have to travel sometimes hundreds of miles from home where we have to spend the night...sometimes Friday, Saturday and Sundays for SARex and even REDCAP.  Some people have religious obligations they might wish to meet along with their communitarian ones.  By not providing at least the locations and options, via a Chaplaincy, for members to freely practice their religious oblications...we are in violation of the spirit of the law, and, likely the letter of it.

The point being...CAP has more or less the same contact hours as does say your local softball team.

If you are in so need of religious guidance on the 3-4 hours you are at CAP then maybe CAP is not for you.

As I stated before....got no problem with Chaplains or even prayers before meetings....but I don't really see the need for it and it opens yet another route for someone who does not know their limits to abuse his/her power.

Wow...now your just feeding the troll. 

3-4 hours on CAP assignment?  I'm talking about weekend work half a State away where you are there from Friday to late Sunday, prime church going hours.

If 3-4 hours is all you give to CAP in a week, you really should be addressing someone else.  I put in about 10 hours a week at it between CAP in Kingsville and Corpus Christi via cadet and senior activities.  If there is a Weekend activity that more than doubles.

Oh...and when the local softball team is doing SAR, ES and Cadet work as an official auxiliary of an Armed Force of our nation, let me know.


ADDITION:
Oh...and by the way...every baseball, softball, football or other team I have been on has begun the game with a prayer.

[Short Field]

I am so glad that God does not beleive in Atheists!

I always preferred the quote from Steven King's novel "The Stand".  Nick was telling Mother Abigale that he didn't believe in God.  She just laughed and said something like, "That's ok, he believes in you."