Opening prayer in CAP meetings?

[raivo]

Some "professionals" telling other "professionals" what religion and my god is better than your god type of crap

Are we reading the same thread? The subject of this thread has largely been what level of religious integration (if any) is appropriate for CAP. (And, by Internet standards, has remained remarkably civil...)

Anyways...

We had a class on this subject in OTS, and the example they gave on "religious equality" had two video clips of a commander introducing himself, showing the "OK" and the "bad".

OK: "... and I attend XYZ church downtown."

Bad: "... and I attend XYZ church downtown. It's a wonderful community, and we really love it there. If any of you are without a spiritual home, I'd be happy to give you a ride down and introduce you to the pastor."

[AirAux]

Raivo, without trying to cause any dissension, could you please tell us what the reasoning was for the good-bad difference in the two?  What made one good or okay and one bad??  the only difference I see is the extension of a warm welcome.  I am not trying to put you on the spot, but since you said you went through this training, I am just wondering what the explanation was that they made to you.

[raivo]

The reasoning I remember was that, in-context, it's an implicit endorsement of a particular church (made worse by the fact that it's coming from a commander.)

The phrase that stands out in my memory is (paraphrased) "If you make that kind of offer, you'd better be prepared to give someone a ride to any church and introduce them to the pastor."

[tdepp]

You know, Todd is right, I just wrote a long response to all the comments.  It's not worth it.  I feel strongly about the cadet program and get a little miffed when it gets hit.  I think I misunderstood and I apologize.  Onto the next subject!

SARFlyer:

No problemo.  Thank you for being a good influence on our cadets and trying to help make them better people.

[tdepp]

Some "professionals" telling other "professionals" what religion and my god is better than your god type of crap

Are we reading the same thread? The subject of this thread has largely been what level of religious integration (if any) is appropriate for CAP. (And, by Internet standards, has remained remarkably civil...)

Anyways...

We had a class on this subject in OTS, and the example they gave on "religious equality" had two video clips of a commander introducing himself, showing the "OK" and the "bad".

OK: "... and I attend XYZ church downtown."

Bad: "... and I attend XYZ church downtown. It's a wonderful community, and we really love it there. If any of you are without a spiritual home, I'd be happy to give you a ride down and introduce you to the pastor."

#1 is a statement of fact. #2 is recruitment.

[AirAux]

Either one could be considered an endorsement depending upon the perception of the listener.

[heliodoc]

This thread hasn't been locked , YET??

[AirAux]

If you have nothing to add, why don't you quit adding???

[MIKE]

'cause he wants an "indefinite" suspension again.

[Short Field]

Either one could be considered an endorsement depending upon the perception of the listener.

It might be, but senior leadership has decided differently.  Same goes for unit commanders who host a prayer luncheon at the squadron.  Attending a prayer luncheon is ok, leading it and telling the squadron you would really like to see them there is not ok.  I saw a squadron commander fired when he could not tell the difference. 

In the RM, you really need to make sure you practice fairness and treat everyone equally.  Of course a CC has to rank and stack his people - but it needs to be based on job performance.  Even the unintentional but implied message to the troops that the people who attend your church or prayer meetings have an advantage over the ones who don't can destroy a unit's cohesion.   

[FW]

^CAP members must be treated fairly and equally as well.  Our ethics regulation and, our core values are clear; not to mention our non discrimination policies.

IMHO, our chaplains are doing a great job.  An opening prayer before a meeting is acceptable.  The NB and NEC have an invocation before every meeting.  They also have a benediction at the end.  No problems there.

[Major Lord]

I suppose someone could make the argument that a Commander announcing which,if any, church he attends could be considered undue command influence, but I think you would have to show a pattern of treatment, for or against, non-members of his/her church. I have never heard of such a thing in CAP. Ever.  Even the few time a visiting community Chaplain said the infamous "J" name ( a Jewish chap from Israel you may have heard of) I don't think anyone felt any pressure to convert, handle rattlesnakes, or other such practices. Our regular Chaplains seem to be well educated enough to understand the limits, and don't push them too hard.

Major Lord
ps. Chaplains and other believers: I invite your prayers for CAP and for me. At worst ( in the eyes of atheists) they are harmless or pointless, but at best, they might make our lives better. Its a win-win!

[davidsinn]

This thread hasn't been locked , YET??

Why? This thread is an example of the finest behavior we should expect from our people. We have two diametrically opposed positions that are having a calm, rational discussion on a very personal and usually highly inflammatory subject. I wish all of the threads around here were this good. A lot of good information has been thrown out here.

[Chappie]

While this may seem "off-topic", I consider it germane to the tone of the thread.  With the recent release of the CAPR 265-1 and the Chaplain Corps Operating Procedure 2009-02 (October 2009), both the Wing and Region Chaplain are now more engaged in the application process of the chaplain candidate.  This would afford an opportunity for the Wing Chaplain to ascertain whether or not the chaplain applicant understands the nature of CAP and ministering in a pluralistic society and what expectations the applicant had regarding CAP chaplaincy.   

Based upon my 30+ years of both pastoral and chaplaincy ministry, I have developed a simple corollary: "While all chaplains should be pastors (i.e. taking care of people's needs), not all pastors can be chaplains."  What I mean by that is that when I stood behind the pulpit of XYZ church in SomeTown, I was free to express myself within the denominational/congregational traditions, customs, expectations, etc.  But when I donned the cleric (not part of my denominational dress -- but an universal symbol of a minister) and the kevlar to ride patrol or respond to calls from home or now put on the USAF service dress or blazer combo with the Christian Cross, I am reminded of a greater responsbility.  In the words found throughout the publications of the USAF and CAP Chaplain Corps, we are to perform a "ministry of presence".  Unfortunately, there are those few within our Chaplain Corps rank who at times engage in a "ministry of proselytizing." 

Another observation that I have made is that some of those who engage in this type of conduct have done so because of there lack of training in CAP.  From my dealings with these individuals, the overwhelming majority have never gone past Level 1 in their training.  That is changing as a result of senior leadership of the Chaplain Corps over the past couple of years leading to changes within the Senior Member Professional Development Program requirements for chaplains.  They are now required to take SLS and CLC for levels 2 and 3 (no more waiver for 221 and 221A  -  that is being developed into a full on specialty track) and they must meet the same requirements for promotions.  No more promotions for chaplains who simply breathe for a required  time frame   These changes in our training requirements should make Chaplains more familiar with the organization and the members they serve. 

[RiverAux]

While I'm not convinced we need a Chaplain corps at all, Chappie is right that steps have been taken to try to address some of the issues that have been a problem in the past. 

[lordmonar]

First Amendment:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Congress shall make no law prohibiting the free exercise of a religion..  Therefore, I as an American citizen have the right to practice my religious beliefs accordingly.. (and I might add, I do so within the confines of our regulations and programs)..

Nice.....CAP is NOT a federal government agency and has nothing to do with congressional laws.

You do have a right to practice your religion....up to the point that it interferes with the smooth running of our program.

[High Speed Low Drag]

I was once an athiest, then agnostic, then a regular church-goer.  The whys are not relevant here.  I have never had a problem listening to others pray when I was not in the fold.  I just thought to myself how stupid they were praying to a man-made being.  I am actually more uncomfortable now with an imvocation then before.

Here is a question - What if there is no chaplain to give an invocation and the commander randomly selecs indviduals to give the invocation?  A senior member, with no connection to chaplain program gives a on-the-spot prayer.  Some of these prayers have gone upwards of three minutes.  Now - get this, the commander considers himself as non-religous.  He syas the only reason he does it is becuase it has always been done that way and he is concerend that many sneior members will leave if we do not have an invocation.

Thoughts?

[Hawk200]

I was once an athiest, then agnostic, then a regular church-goer.  The whys are not relevant here.  I have never had a problem listening to others pray when I was not in the fold.  I just thought to myself how stupid they were praying to a man-made being.  I am actually more uncomfortable now with an imvocation then before.

Here is a question - What if there is no chaplain to give an invocation and the commander randomly selecs indviduals to give the invocation?  A senior member, with no connection to chaplain program gives a on-the-spot prayer.  Some of these prayers have gone upwards of three minutes.  Now - get this, the commander considers himself as non-religous.  He syas the only reason he does it is becuase it has always been done that way and he is concerend that many sneior members will leave if we do not have an invocation.

Thoughts?

Put it up for a vote. Majority rules. It's one thing for people to want it, it's another when they "just don't mind".

Invocation for the sake of an invocation is unecessary. I can see a Wing Chaplains' office opening meetings (if there's enough of them to constitute a "meeting") with an invocation. It would be quite appropriate there, and wouldn't be considered unusual. But for a unit just to do it, there's little reason for it.

A meeting shouldn't be opened with "Who's gonna pray this week?"

[Chappie]

I was once an athiest, then agnostic, then a regular church-goer.  The whys are not relevant here.  I have never had a problem listening to others pray when I was not in the fold.  I just thought to myself how stupid they were praying to a man-made being.  I am actually more uncomfortable now with an imvocation then before.

Here is a question - What if there is no chaplain to give an invocation and the commander randomly selecs indviduals to give the invocation?  A senior member, with no connection to chaplain program gives a on-the-spot prayer.  Some of these prayers have gone upwards of three minutes.  Now - get this, the commander considers himself as non-religous.  He syas the only reason he does it is becuase it has always been done that way and he is concerend that many sneior members will leave if we do not have an invocation.

Thoughts?

Bottom line:  It's the Commander's call.  The regs are silent on this issue.  Prayer that is offered is not limited to members of the Chaplain Corps.

[Major Lord]

I have always thought that the problem with Atheism is that it takes so much faith........one little slip and your an Agnostic! 

Major Lord