Opening prayer in CAP meetings?

[sarflyer]

You know, Todd is right, I just wrote a long response to all the comments.  It's not worth it.  I feel strongly about the cadet program and get a little miffed when it gets hit.  I think I misunderstood and I apologize.  Onto the next subject!

[DogCollar]

I'm sorry, but I couldn't let this one go by.  Can't you all see that the minority view is winning through political correctness?  I don't know of a Christian faith or a Bible that doesn't direct one to go forth and spread the news.  Now, due to political correctness, a man of faith, a Chaplain no less, has been instructed not to spread the faith for fear of being 2b'd and thrown out of the program..  The atheist and agnostics have won, their non-beliefs are stronger and more important, and more controlling than the beliefs of the majority.  It is hard to believe that a Chaplain would deny the strongest tenet of the faith, to spread the word to all.  I seem to remember something in the Bible about the preachers being held to a higher standard when they get to heaven.  Now I understand why..  How can God expect anyone to obey when his own preachers and priests lie down their most trusted responsibilities??  I am disappointed, but not surprised..

I am sorry for dissappointing you, but I am in no way worried about my station before the Almighty!!

I should add that Chaplains are not to be muzzeled if anyone approaches them and asks questions about faith.  They are then allowed to express their opinions and beliefs on the subject. 

I would argue that Chaplains "initiating" the conversation with persons who have expressed no openess to the content or the conversation is counterproductive to "spreading the Word." 

I work full-time as a hospital chaplain.  I have seen "chaplains" come from the outside, and preach AT patients that, instead, want to be listened too.  They are not very effective ministers of the Word.  When I listen first, and discover that a patient is asking fundamentally spiritual questions I will enter conversation.  The same is true of my Pastoral Counseling in CAP.  It starts with listening, and listening some more. 

A wise man of faith once said "Preach always...use words only if you must."  I use words only if they are invited by the hearer.

EDIT:  These guidelines from the CAP Chaplain Corps are helpful.  They are merely guidelines, however.
http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/Prayer_Guidelines_31BAEE2A053B1.pdf

[vmstan]

The atheist and agnostics have won, their non-beliefs are stronger and more important, and more controlling than the beliefs of the majority.

Sweet! When is the party!?

[Chappie]

This has gone pretty far afield.....

The Chaplain Corps has strict rules (NOT always followed, however) guiding our work.  Prayer, like anything else a Chaplain does, is to meet a real need.  It cannot be an "assumed" need, but a real need.

A Chaplain has the obligation to meet the need with a principle that "thou shall not create more problems in the process!!"  Meaning, if there is a certain population that finds a group prayer at a CAP meeting is needed and helpful to the mission at hand, then that group should be allowed to pray...BUT, it cannot be mandatory, and no retaliation or negative judgement can be made of those who chose not to participate.

At the same time, if there is a group that is adamantly opposed, or offended by group prayer during a meeting, then that should be respected out of courtesy to those offended and accommodations for those who wish to pray together should be made outside the realm of an official meeting.

The first rule of chaplaincy is to recognize that CAP exists within a pluralistic society.  There are all manner of faith groups and non-faith groups that are woven into the fabric of the nation and the Constitution, wisely, protects belief and unbelief.  A Chaplain should never assume that everything he/she does or says is welcome by all in CAP.  However, if needed by anyone, a Chaplain should be willing and able to offer themselves as agents of help, or if running counter to his or her endorsing faith group, find appropriate resources to help.

Proselytizing by a Chaplain in CAP runs counter to the CAP Chaplain Corps Code of Ethics and is grounds for 2b'ing a Chaplain.

Can we move on from this topic now?

Well said.  :clap:

Says it all.  Amen!!!

[raivo]

This has gone pretty far afield.....

The Chaplain Corps has strict rules (NOT always followed, however) guiding our work.  Prayer, like anything else a Chaplain does, is to meet a real need.  It cannot be an "assumed" need, but a real need.

A Chaplain has the obligation to meet the need with a principle that "thou shall not create more problems in the process!!"  Meaning, if there is a certain population that finds a group prayer at a CAP meeting is needed and helpful to the mission at hand, then that group should be allowed to pray...BUT, it cannot be mandatory, and no retaliation or negative judgement can be made of those who chose not to participate.

At the same time, if there is a group that is adamantly opposed, or offended by group prayer during a meeting, then that should be respected out of courtesy to those offended and accommodations for those who wish to pray together should be made outside the realm of an official meeting.

The first rule of chaplaincy is to recognize that CAP exists within a pluralistic society.  There are all manner of faith groups and non-faith groups that are woven into the fabric of the nation and the Constitution, wisely, protects belief and unbelief.  A Chaplain should never assume that everything he/she does or says is welcome by all in CAP.  However, if needed by anyone, a Chaplain should be willing and able to offer themselves as agents of help, or if running counter to his or her endorsing faith group, find appropriate resources to help.

Proselytizing by a Chaplain in CAP runs counter to the CAP Chaplain Corps Code of Ethics and is grounds for 2b'ing a Chaplain.

Can we move on from this topic now?

I agree, well said.

[Short Field]

The atheist and agnostics have won, their non-beliefs are stronger and more important, and more controlling than the beliefs of the majority.  It is hard to believe that a Chaplain would deny the strongest tenet of the faith, to spread the word to all. 

I seem to hear this same cry every time evangelicals are prevented from proselytizing.     

[raivo]

I have a feeling we're about to veer even further off-topic.

The bottom line is that it's inappropriate for CAP members, chaplains or otherwise, to try and use CAP as a recruiting ground for a specific religion. That is not to say that members should be forbidden from mentioning their religion if asked, just that they should not be offering unsolicited religious views.

I, for one, don't consider a non-denominational prayer at the start of a meeting to be a problem.

[davidsinn]

I'm sorry, but I couldn't let this one go by.  Can't you all see that the minority view is winning through political correctness?  I don't know of a Christian faith or a Bible that doesn't direct one to go forth and spread the news.  Now, due to political correctness, a man of faith, a Chaplain no less, has been instructed not to spread the faith for fear of being 2b'd and thrown out of the program..  The atheist and agnostics have won, their non-beliefs are stronger and more important, and more controlling than the beliefs of the majority.  It is hard to believe that a Chaplain would deny the strongest tenet of the faith, to spread the word to all.  I seem to remember something in the Bible about the preachers being held to a higher standard when they get to heaven.  Now I understand why..  How can God expect anyone to obey when his own preachers and priests lie down their most trusted responsibilities??  I am disappointed, but not surprised..

You completely miss the point that your rights extend right up to the point that mine begin. Evangelicals piss and moan when they think their right to believe is being infringed when in truth it's my right to not believe what you believe that is being infringed when you constantly push yourself on me. If you want to practice your beliefs then more power to you. Just do it somewhere it doesn't effect me. I'm here for AE, CP and ES not to have someone's beliefs forced on me.

[PHall]

Wasn't this thread due for a LOCK a couple of pages ago?

[davidsinn]

Wasn't this thread due for a LOCK a couple of pages ago?

I don't think so. It has gotten a little heated but everyone has for the most part remained civil. It is on topic as some of us are stating why prayer should not open a meeting and others are stating why it should.

[AirAux]

Actually, the Constitution protects my rights to practice my religion where and when I see fit.   Your attempt to stop me is an infringement upon my constitutional rights..  you don't have to believe what I do, but you have no right to attempt to stop me from believing in and practicing what I believe..  My practicing my beliefs does not infringe upon your non-beliefs and as your non-beliefs are not a religion they are therefore not protected by the Constitution..

[raivo]

As long as your beliefs don't conflict with my organization's policy of religious neutrality, you go right ahead.

You might also want to brush up on your Constitutional law, by the way.

[vmstan]

Actually, the Constitution protects my rights to practice my religion where and when I see fit.   Your attempt to stop me is an infringement upon my constitutional rights..  you don't have to believe what I do, but you have no right to attempt to stop me from believing in and practicing what I believe..  My practicing my beliefs does not infringe upon your non-beliefs and as your non-beliefs are not a religion they are therefore not protected by the Constitution..

Please, take a Constitutional law class or two (or maybe just a logical thought class) and then re-evaluate that position.

[lordmonar]

Actually, the Constitution protects my rights to practice my religion where and when I see fit.   Your attempt to stop me is an infringement upon my constitutional rights..  you don't have to believe what I do, but you have no right to attempt to stop me from believing in and practicing what I believe..  My practicing my beliefs does not infringe upon your non-beliefs and as your non-beliefs are not a religion they are therefore not protected by the Constitution..

To a point you are correct.

But our organisation is NOT there to provide you with a captive audience.

Our regulations tells us that we should refrain from preaching to our members.

CAP membership is a privilege not a right.

If you cannot reconcile your religious beliefs with the stated goals of our organisation and our rules....then you should move on.

I don't like to get this hard onto anyone....but that is the way it should be....and don't think that I am thrashing you because you are a christian....if an atheist was out preaching to the unit and he could not keep his beliefs to himself he should move on as well.

All constitutional rights have limits.

You have the right to free speech...except where it brings harm to others, or overly bothers other people (such as playing loud music after 10 P.M.)
You have the right to worship as you feel....except where it brings harm to others....If I said I worshiped the Mayan Gods and they required human sacrifice.....I don't think that would go over too well in court.

You say you have a religious duty to preach to the masses.....how does this go over where you work?

As I said before.....I don't really have a problem with a little prayer before a meeting.
I don't have a problem with CAP chaplains.
I don't even have a problem with you Airaux...although you should read the regs and get a better understanding of our program and its aims and rules.

We are all here to serve our community.  Let's keep that in focus and just drop all the rest of the BS and move on.

[AirAux]

First Amendment:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Congress shall make no law prohibiting the free exercise of a religion..  Therefore, I as an American citizen have the right to practice my religious beliefs accordingly.. (and I might add, I do so within the confines of our regulations and programs)..

[davidsinn]

First Amendment:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Congress shall make no law prohibiting the free exercise of a religion..  Therefore, I as an American citizen have the right to practice my religious beliefs accordingly..

And I have the right to practice mine which are to not be forced to listen to you.  Your rights end where mine begin. You are not understanding that.

[Майор Хаткевич]

First Amendment:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Congress shall make no law prohibiting the free exercise of a religion..  Therefore, I as an American citizen have the right to practice my religious beliefs accordingly..

And I have the right to practice mine which are to not be forced to listen to you.  Your rights end where mine begin. You are not understanding that.

^ There is a point where your right to preach to me about salvation doesn't exist. It's called my right to not listen. If you choose to continue to do so, then it is my right to call the police and tell them you are harassing me.

[Major Lord]

Captain Sinn ( and I shall refrain from any puns or plays on words about Major Lord and Captain Sinn....) has an interesting point. In the case of the Baptist Church Group protesting at funerals of American Soldiers, so far at least, the protesters have kept the right to intentionally rain on the religious practices of the soldiers families in carrying out the burials of their friends and family members. Effectively, the Courts of the United States of America have given permission for one group to infringe on the religious practices of another group ( naturally, the courts chose to side with the notoriously un-American side)

CAP is chartered by Congress, and it may be that there is some residual authority invested in Congress to prevent runaway religious practices in CAP. Who knows? The evangelization of the service academies has been a bone of contention for awhile now, and Congress has not taken step
s to prevent it. ( oddly, given their hostility towards religion in general)

You don't have a right to be completely free to from merely hearing the words of religion, but you have the option of not listening or participating. If your CAP units makes you hold hands and sing Kum-Bayh-Yah, I think you have a valid case of at the least, a hostile work environment. This is pretty much the position that the dad who's child was seriously injured by hearing the word "God" in the Pledge of allegiance in public schools took, with ACLU backing. So far at least, the Pledge has resisted the machinations of those tyrants on the bench who find burning flags to be a perfectly respectable behavior, while honoring the flag to be on par with sending Jews to the gas chamber.

Major Lord

[heliodoc]

This is pretty interesting.....

CAPTalkers...you're showing what all of are afraid of......

The religion issue is going to prove less productive and PROVE to other folks the true CAP

Some "professionals" telling other "professionals" what religion and my god is better than your god type of crap

Hopefully this thread does get locked....Sure demonstrates why CAP ought to be left OUT of issues of religion ALTOGETHER.

Hopefully there are CAP and non CAP  types from outside reading this thread..

Hopefully there is a LOCK soon this whole thing

WOW   You guys leading senior members and cadets?  After this little thread can any of you lead a trashcan to the corner?

[Flying Pig]

First Amendment:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Congress shall make no law prohibiting the free exercise of a religion..  Therefore, I as an American citizen have the right to practice my religious beliefs accordingly..

And I have the right to practice mine which are to not be forced to listen to you.  Your rights end where mine begin. You are not understanding that.

^ There is a point where your right to preach to me about salvation doesn't exist. It's called my right to not listen. If you choose to continue to do so, then it is my right to call the police and tell them you are harassing me.

And they would respond and tell you all to grow up.