I received this email today. Note that the subject line was "Signature Blocks" but the the reference to US Civil Air Patrol was not that specific. Awaiting the official notification.
Subject: Signature Blocks
Ladies and Gentlemen,
The NEC voted to remove all references to "US Civil Air Patrol" and replace
them with "Civil Air Patrol". Additionally, we were informed by national
legal that it is inappropriate to use the words "US Air Force Auxiliary" in
our signature blocks. Please revise your signature blocks like mine below.
Best regards,
Russ
Russell E. Chazell, Col, CAP
Commander
Rocky Mountain Region
Civil Air Patrol
Mike
^ Really, I thought somewhere, possibly the Congressional Record it stated that the the name of our organization was the "Civil Air Patrol", and may be refered to as "United States Air Force Auxiliary". Are we NOW distancing ourselves from that? Also, glad to see the revocation of US Civil Air Patrol......perhaps the nametapes will follow as well.
I would welcome this, despite the fact that it will cost me a couple bucks in replacement nametapes.
I did not see this on the published agenda, and no one has mentioned it, although I suppose it could have been discussed today in the non televised session.
Considering that this will have a fair financial impact on both members and the organization in that this will revert name tags, nametapes, and possible re-badge vehicles and airplanes (again).
I think I'll wait for something a bit more official through my chain before grabbing a needle.
I disagree with the statement about references to USAF Auxiliary being inappropriate. We are both in certain circumstances, and as long as it is used together with "Civil Air Patrol" I believe it adheres to published regs on the subject, (assuming they are any). It >does< say that on my nametag.
Correct me if I am wrong, but to my understanding, the Legal Directorate is not in the chain of command and cannot issue directives, to the membership.
It is the CAP Constitution that has this language:
Quote2.1 The name of Civil Air Patrol may be stated by any of the following:
a. "Civil Air Patrol"
b. "Civil Air Patrol, incorporated under Special Act of Congress approved July 1, 1946, Public Law 476, 79th Congress"
2.2 Each unit, including National Headquarters, shall use a name expressing its designation, the words "Civil Air Patrol" and may also refer to its status as the United States Air Force Auxiliary as set forth in regulations.
2.3 The corporate seal shall have inscribed thereon "United States Air Force Auxiliary--Civil Air Patrol" and appears as follows:
If it is true that "US" CAP is gone. Hooray! However, they're going to have go change back some regs and get AF approval again before it would become official.
But, technically they would be right about the signature block, but its hard to take that position when we use USAF Aux in our corporate seal.
Quote from: RiverAux on November 04, 2007, 02:00:13 AM
If it is true that "US" CAP is gone. Hooray! However, they're going to have go change back some regs and get AF approval again before it would become official.
What was changed? I didn't think anything was actually changed or re-written, it was just an arbitrary directive by
(he who shall remain nameless).
That's been the argument by many people here about the whole idea - that no one ever actually did the legwork to make it "legal".
No kidding, I won't miss the "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" one bit. I can see them wanting "Civil Air Patrol" included if one uses "USAF Auxiliary", but to say what we can't refer to ourselves as the USAF Auxiliary means we need to get our Congressional charter changed. Or someone needs to read our Congressional Charter, either one.
Whether you like it or not (I didn't), they did incorporate the "US" CAP into the uniform regulations through this interim change letter http://level2.cap.gov/documents/2007_07_uniform_changes.pdf (http://level2.cap.gov/documents/2007_07_uniform_changes.pdf) and they will have to back themselves out of it just the same way.
All the other U.S. Civil Air Patrol stuff was not "official" in the same way and can be just as easily reversed -- for example, taking it out of the title of the magazine.
By the way, has anyone else gotten this email or some variation of it yet? Just looking for some confirmation.
It figures, I just had all of my BDUs altered with the new US Civil Air Patrol. Great!!!
Quote from: Psicorp on November 04, 2007, 02:54:03 AM
No kidding, I won't miss the "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" one bit. I can see them wanting "Civil Air Patrol" included if one uses "USAF Auxiliary", but to say what we can't refer to ourselves as the USAF Auxiliary means we need to get our Congressional charter changed. Or someone needs to read our Congressional Charter, either one.
I think this is directed more at those who were putting JOHN Q. PUBLIC, Lt Col, USAF Aux or derivatives in their sig elements instead of using the format specified by CAPR 10-1 Attachment 2, which IIRC had been addressed in the past.
exactly the reason my BDU's were never changed
Whats that old saying... "If you don't like the weather, just wait a couple minutes it'll change"
Quote from: IceNine on November 04, 2007, 03:54:35 AM
Whats that old saying... "If you don't like the weather, just wait a couple minutes it'll change"
Wisconsin to the letter!
I was kind of on the fence for the whole USCAP thing. I didn't like it because it sounded a little hokey and a little wordy for me. But it was kind of nice because it made us sound a little more independent and had a more authoritative impact. All in all, it's probably for the better. Think of how it would sound if the Red Cross started calling themselves the "United States Red Cross" (I know, kind of weak considering they operate internationally :-\ but I'm just trying to make an analogy here)
Quote from: IceNine on November 04, 2007, 03:54:35 AM
exactly the reason my BDU's were never changed
Whats that old saying... "If you don't like the weather, just wait a couple minutes it'll change"
I like the "Ice Nine" moniker. Is this a
Cat's Cradle reference?
I understand some of the points behind it (I've seen the references to Nevada CAP, NY CAP, FL AP etc), but I'm just not sure if this is the way to handle it or if maybe our PAOs couldn't do a better job of educating the press in this area...assuming that the press is educable, which in my experience is not a given.
I just don't get it, is the NHQ that wimpy to be pushed around by one person, I have a concern in the leadership of CAP, what are the other mandates that are going to be "reversed", is this the French revolution?? were the original decisions carefully thought out in the first place? I am embarrassed by the whole charade. Will this board be reversed in three months. You cannot blame this on one man. Why not concern themselves with real operational issues and less on silver braid. Maybe CAP needs to be taken over again by the USAF, have the members vote on that.
Quote from: Major Carrales on November 04, 2007, 06:27:35 AM
Quote from: IceNine on November 04, 2007, 03:54:35 AM
exactly the reason my BDU's were never changed
Whats that old saying... "If you don't like the weather, just wait a couple minutes it'll change"
I like the "Ice Nine" moniker. Is this a Cat's Cradle reference?
Why yes it is, I'm glad that someone caught on to that. Its my favorite book
Quote from: wingnut on November 04, 2007, 09:03:20 AM
I just don't get it, is the NHQ that wimpy to be pushed around by one person, I have a concern in the leadership of CAP, what are the other mandates that are going to be "reversed", is this the French revolution?? were the original decisions carefully thought out in the first place? I am embarrassed by the whole charade. Will this board be reversed in three months. You cannot blame this on one man. Why not concern themselves with real operational issues and less on silver braid. Maybe CAP needs to be taken over again by the USAF, have the members vote on that.
Ummm....yes it can. His ideas, his push, his signature on the change letters, before the issues were even approved by AF or CAP Corporate.
I am glad to see the "US CAP" thing starting to be pushed out......I do feel bad if it costs members some $$ though.
Please get your facts straight -- The nametape change was approved at the National Board in March and the uniform change letter did not come out until July.
Quote from: IceNine on November 04, 2007, 02:07:55 PM
Quote from: Major Carrales on November 04, 2007, 06:27:35 AM
Quote from: IceNine on November 04, 2007, 03:54:35 AM
exactly the reason my BDU's were never changed
Whats that old saying... "If you don't like the weather, just wait a couple minutes it'll change"
I like the "Ice Nine" moniker. Is this a Cat's Cradle reference?
Why yes it is, I'm glad that someone caught on to that. Its my favorite book
I thought I was the only one who thought that was interesting. That is one of the most "chilling" end of the world books I have ever read.
Quote from: RiverAux on November 04, 2007, 02:28:16 PM
Please get your facts straight -- The nametape change was approved at the National Board in March and the uniform change letter did not come out until July.
BUT it was him.
Quote from: RiverAux on November 04, 2007, 02:28:16 PM
Please get your facts straight -- The nametape change was approved at the National Board in March and the uniform change letter did not come out until July.
Wasn't this one of the famous non-agenda, last-minute ram-rods?
Quote from: Eclipse on November 04, 2007, 03:40:20 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on November 04, 2007, 02:28:16 PM
Please get your facts straight -- The nametape change was approved at the National Board in March and the uniform change letter did not come out until July.
Wasn;t this one of the famous non-agenda, last-minute ram-rods?
Yes. I was sitting at that NB meeting. TP just brought it up, passed a tape around. Several people asked if this would fit on the cadet uniform for our smaller members.... the question was not answered.
It was another ram-rod, big time.
^ Oh.....Too bad Congress did not work like that!
Quote from: mikeylikey on November 04, 2007, 04:54:10 PM
^ Oh.....Too bad Congress did not work like that!
...Be careful what you wish for... :)
Quote
Think of how it would sound if the Red Cross started calling themselves the "United States Red Cross" (I know, kind of weak considering they operate internationally :-\ but I'm just trying to make an analogy here)
Actually, it is the
American Red Cross, commonly referred to as the ARC.
But it's easy to be confused. There is also the International Red Cross and Red Crescent Movement and, quite separate, the International Committee of the Red Cross. cf: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Cross_%28disambiguation%29
Quote from: dogboy on November 04, 2007, 07:30:22 PM
Quote
Think of how it would sound if the Red Cross started calling themselves the "United States Red Cross" (I know, kind of weak considering they operate internationally :-\ but I'm just trying to make an analogy here)
Actually, it is the American Red Cross, commonly referred to as the ARC.
But it's easy to be confused. There is also the International Red Cross and Red Crescent Movement and, quite separate, the International Committee of the Red Cross. cf: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Cross_%28disambiguation%29
Yes - as an example of a similar agency this is not a good one, because there are other RC's, and the agencies do deploy internationally and work together, so there actually >is< room for confusion.
Quote from: TankerT on November 04, 2007, 03:50:19 PM
Yes. I was sitting at that NB meeting. TP just brought it up, passed a tape around. Several people asked if this would fit on the cadet uniform for our smaller members.... the question was not answered.
It was another ram-rod, big time.
Yeah, nice way to ambush the agenda.
"We'll present this from the floor, with obvious indicators that this was prepared well in advance, such as having nametapes made, but we won't put it on the agenda lest those rabble rousers at CAPTalk.net get their hands on it and scuttle the whole deal!"
Quote from: NIN on November 04, 2007, 10:24:01 PM
Quote from: TankerT on November 04, 2007, 03:50:19 PM
Yes. I was sitting at that NB meeting. TP just brought it up, passed a tape around. Several people asked if this would fit on the cadet uniform for our smaller members.... the question was not answered.
It was another ram-rod, big time.
Yeah, nice way to ambush the agenda.
"We'll present this from the floor, with obvious indicators that this was prepared well in advance, such as having nametapes made, but we won't put it on the agenda lest those rabble rousers at CAPTalk.net get their hands on it and scuttle the whole deal!"
Maybe Santa Claus give the National Board a backbone for Christmas,
But only if they've been good little boys and girls
Quote from: MIKE on November 04, 2007, 03:50:23 AM
I think this is directed more at those who were putting JOHN Q. PUBLIC, Lt Col, USAF Aux or derivatives in their sig elements instead of using the format specified by CAPR 10-1 Attachment 2, which IIRC had been addressed in the past.
But CAPR-10 Attachment 2 (http://level2.cap.gov/documents/u_081503073427.pdf) doesn't explicitly prohibit it either. It provides a couple examples of versions of signatures for memos that is about all. It could be argued that e-mail correspondence remains undefined anywhere. The memo format does not make sense in it's application to e-mails and you'll find that none of commanders follow this format in their e-mail correspendence either (the reg hasn't been updated in a decade).
I just got my new id card (no photo) and thought I had discovered an insidious change -- at the very top it says Civil Air Patrol and then right below it there is "The Auxiliary of the United States Air Force". So, I went to look at some old id cards to make sure they had changed it from United States Air Force Auxiliary and what do you know, but I found out they've been using that language on the cards since at least 2001.
So, not using USAF Auxiliary as if it were the name of our organization is at least consistent with our cards (except for where they have the CAP seal which does phrase it that way).
The only mention of email guidance I've found is in paragraph 6 of CAPR 110-1
QuoteCAP internet operations involving e-mail, chat groups, bulletin boards, list-servers or similar communications must include the name of the person involved in the communication and, as applicable, their CAP rank or CAP position of employment.
They aren't shunning the use of "The Auxiliary of the United States Air Force," but the use of it as the organization that you are representing.
If I sign my name:
Jimmy Dean, Maj, CAP
or
Maj Jimmy Dean
Civil Air Patrol
it is a whole lot different than putting:
Jimmy Dean, Maj, USAFAux
or
Jimmy Dean, Maj, USAFA
or even
Maj Jimmy Dean
United States Air Force Auxiliary
First and foremost we are The Civil Air Patrol and should represent ourselves that way. We are members of The Civil Air Patrol which happens to be "The official civilian auxiliary of the United States Air Force." We are not members of the United States Air Force Auxiliary which happens to be Civil Air Patrol.
Signature bocks are an easy fix, (I noted that Brig Gen Courter's letterhead omitted the U.S.) but what's the verdict with the U.S. Civil Air Patrol nametapes, corp nameplates, etc.?
I'd like to know, while I now only have about $3 invested in nametapes, and haven't gotten around to buying new corporate namplates. . . .
Also, what's going to happen to the tails of our planes, i.e., the $30K that NHQ spent on replacing the USAF AUX decals with CIVIL AIR PAROL>
Quote from: O-Rex on November 05, 2007, 01:26:29 PM
...$30K that NHQ spent on replacing the USAF AUX decals with CIVIL AIR PAROL>
I don't see any issue with retaining "Civil Air Patrol" on the aircraft.
I do think it is unfortunate that the USCAP on the nametags will probably be phased out shortly, only because of the expense incurred by our members. However, I do think that the acting NC has the members best interests at heart and is trying to correct things before they get too far down the road.
I knew the "USCAP" thing wasn't going to stick because it's stupid so I ordered all the clearance CAP Tapes from the HOCK I could get my hands on...they were half-price. All my new cadets all say "Civil Air Patrol" and not "US Civil Air Patrol." ;D
They just announced that we will no longer wear or use U S Civil Air Patrol. I am glad I only put one US CAP tape on one uniform.
http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=3451.20;topicseen
Quote from: jimmydeanno on November 05, 2007, 01:35:05 PM
I do think it is unfortunate that the USCAP on the nametags will probably be phased out shortly, only because of the expense incurred by our members. However, I do think that the acting NC has the members best interests at heart and is trying to correct things before they get too far down the road.
I don't think it's unfortunate. Perhaps it's things like this that will get more people will pay attention to what's going on at higher levels. With any luck the membership will start putting pressure on it's leadership to listen to their needs and reform it's ways, resulting in more accountability. (a person can dream, right?)
BTW, for those that haven't learned yet, it does not often pay to be on the cutting edge of changes in this organization. If something seems like a bad idea, such as this, it's likely to change. Being an "early adopter" is likely to cost you money. Everything has a wear out date. ;) >:D
I feel bad for people who bought things like nametags (blue 2-line, brushed silver, BDU nametapes, etc.) all to have it rescinded shortly thereafter. I did not purchase any such items, but maybe for their sake, they'll allow them to be worn for several years though not sell anymore. A small "U.S." on the nametags won't throw off organizational uniformity anymore than it already is.
Save those "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" items (picture ID cards, nametapes and tags, etc.) as in 30-40 years, they'll be another one of those interesting brief-period-of-history items. ;D
I wonder what will happen to all the new van decals that we rushed to replace? The old seals were much more professional looking, and a tad more "descriptive" as well.
I for one would love to see a revised design for the vans that doesn't look like a hodge-podge of stickers from a Civil Air Patrol fan convention.
Quote from: Pylon on November 05, 2007, 02:42:04 PM
I feel bad for people who bought things like nametags (blue 2-line, brushed silver, BDU nametapes, etc.) all to have it rescinded shortly thereafter. I did not purchase any such items, but maybe for their sake, they'll allow them to be worn for several years though not sell anymore. A small "U.S." on the nametags won't throw off organizational uniformity anymore than it already is.
Save those "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" items (picture ID cards, nametapes and tags, etc.) as in 30-40 years, they'll be another one of those interesting brief-period-of-history items. ;D
Yeah, I am new and
everything I have has U S Civil Air Patrol on it. :(
seems like those of us with spare Non US tapes can make a couple of bucks, better yet, I'm sure we'd have better prices and shipping rates :P
Are they sending out a policy letter or something? What other TP changes if any have been over-turned?
Quote from: Pylon on November 05, 2007, 02:44:40 PM
I wonder what will happen to all the new van decals that we rushed to replace? The old seals were much more professional looking, and a tad more "descriptive" as well.
I for one would love to see a revised design for the vans that doesn't look like a hodge-podge of stickers from a Civil Air Patrol fan convention.
You're talking about the one that looks like the command patch, right?
If so, it's also slated for the sides of aircraft-I don't think it will be affected.
Quote from: Chappy on November 05, 2007, 01:54:40 PM
They just announced that we will no longer wear or use U S Civil Air Patrol. I am glad I only put one US CAP tape on one uniform.
Quote from: NERMA002 Safety on November 05, 2007, 03:14:23 PM
Are they sending out a policy letter or something? What other TP changes if any have been over-turned?
Is this true?? And who's "They"??
Am I ever glad my squadron decided to go with blue golf shirts and grey pants for all members! Nothing that needs up-dating, inexpensive, we're all "uniform", and not subject to the winds of change which seem to blow so strong and so quickly from different directions.
Quote from: Pylon on November 05, 2007, 02:42:04 PM
I feel bad for people who bought things like nametags (blue 2-line, brushed silver, BDU nametapes, etc.) all to have it rescinded shortly thereafter. I did not purchase any such items, but maybe for their sake, they'll allow them to be worn for several years though not sell anymore. A small "U.S." on the nametags won't throw off organizational uniformity anymore than it already is.
Save those "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" items (picture ID cards, nametapes and tags, etc.) as in 30-40 years, they'll be another one of those interesting brief-period-of-history items. ;D
Great.
I'd gladly forego participation in the
"footnote in Civil Air Patrol history" if I could get my fifteen bucks back...... >:(
Almost like the people who purchased the TPU only to have the grooming standards changed...
And I predict that the TPU will not go away, but will have some insignia changes done in the near future. I always wondered how we got away with having a uniform so close to RM, and I could see us being told to lose the AF rank slides and put our greys on, or something to that effect.
If you put a person within RM weight and grooming standards in a TPU aviator shirt next to any RM equal uniform most people with no knowledge of us couldn't tell that we weren't the same thing.
"And the steely-eyed but chubby sheriff stepped into the street, faced the angry crowd with the rope coming to get the Cuban, and with two words stopped the mob in its tracks..."
"Hold it."
The only body that can amend UNIFORM regulations is the National Board, not the NEC. The NEC has directed that "USCAP" not be used in signature blocks and other references. The NB, meeting (I think) in March may or may not change the regulation on nametapes back.
I'd say its likely. Don't buy any nametapes that you don't have to.
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on November 05, 2007, 08:53:02 PM
The NB, meeting (I think) in March may or may not change the regulation on nametapes back.
According to a letter we got forwarded from the Southwest Region commander, it's already been decided:
QuoteGentlemen – please pass on to all members of your wing (and Lt. Col. Mattiello please pass on to SWR Staff). The NEC today confirmed that the official name of our organization remains "Civil Air Patrol". All signature blocks should indicate that name. Use of e-mail signature blocks indicating "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" or "U.S. Air Force Auxiliary" are not permitted and should be changed. Please see my signature block below for an example of an acceptable one.
Items such as vehicle emblems, stationery and uniform items indicating "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" will be phased out over a period of time, with further guidance to follow.
Joseph Jensen, Col., CAP
Commander
Southwest Region
Civil Air Patrol
Quote from: jaybird512 on November 05, 2007, 10:44:34 PM
According to a letter we got forwarded from the Southwest Region commander, it's already been decided:
QuoteGentlemen – please pass on to all members of your wing (and Lt. Col. Mattiello please pass on to SWR Staff). The NEC today confirmed that the official name of our organization remains "Civil Air Patrol". All signature blocks should indicate that name. Use of e-mail signature blocks indicating "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" or "U.S. Air Force Auxiliary" are not permitted and should be changed. Please see my signature block below for an example of an acceptable one.
Items such as vehicle emblems, stationery and uniform items indicating "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" will be phased out over a period of time, with further guidance to follow.
Joseph Jensen, Col., CAP
Commander
Southwest Region
Civil Air Patrol
Out-freaking-standing. :)
Quote from: jaybird512 on November 05, 2007, 10:44:34 PM
According to a letter we got forwarded from the Southwest Region commander, it's already been decided:
QuoteGentlemen – please pass on to all members of your wing (and Lt. Col. Mattiello please pass on to SWR Staff). The NEC today confirmed that the official name of our organization remains "Civil Air Patrol". All signature blocks should indicate that name. Use of e-mail signature blocks indicating "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" or "U.S. Air Force Auxiliary" are not permitted and should be changed. Please see my signature block below for an example of an acceptable one.
Items such as vehicle emblems, stationery and uniform items indicating "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" will be phased out over a period of time, with further guidance to follow.
Joseph Jensen, Col., CAP
Commander
Southwest Region
Civil Air Patrol
Wow....so how long does it normally take for information like this to flow down to everyone? It makes a difference for those of us still putting uniforms together. :-)
This email was sent from SWR CC to Wing CC. The Wing CC sent it to his list serve. Anyone can join the list serve and receive the information.
At least that is how it works in TX WG.
Maybe we'll lose the American Flags too. And maybe we'll lose the wing patches forever instead of making it a wing option....
Quote from: Stonewall on November 06, 2007, 02:25:57 AM
Maybe we'll lose the American Flags too. And maybe we'll lose the wing patches forever instead of making it a wing option....
DEATH TO WING PATCHES FOREVER! (and may it hurt Vanguard)
Quote from: Stonewall on November 06, 2007, 02:25:57 AM
Maybe we'll lose the American Flags too. And maybe we'll lose the wing patches forever instead of making it a wing option....
I'm actually for the American flag, especially in this post-9/11 age. That and the DHS missions.
As for the wing patches....DIE DIE DIE!!! Less for me to get sewn on my uniforms, especially the blues....read NOTHING! Hah.
Through trusted communications that I've confirmed the original message about the signature blocks. Also, it looks like the vehicle emblems, stationary, and clothing items will be phased out over time. Although again, they will need to change the reg to change the clothing item. The rest is stroke-of-the-pen stuff.
Quote from: A.Member on November 05, 2007, 02:02:10 PM
BTW, for those that haven't learned yet, it does not often pay to be on the cutting edge of changes in this organization. If something seems like a bad idea, such as this, it's likely to change. Being an "early adopter" is likely to cost you money. Everything has a wear out date. ;) >:D
No kidding: "salute & execute" can (literally) cost you in CAP.
I look on the bright side: nametapes can be resewn. Glad I decided against that tattoo. . . . >:D
Kinda like a guy who was in our Army Observer Course way back: he gets our aircraft name, "Mohawk" tattooed on his arm, then washes-out of the course.
"
Bummer, dude: heard you now gotta go to Cook's school."
"Yeah, but first I have to get this tattoo retouched..."Looking back, odds were against him from the beginning.
Don't forget that the prohibition on using USAF AUX and USAFA also applies to flight suit name badges. (Especially those ordered through our usual under-the table suppliers that haven't been shut down by the C&D Gestapo! :)) For obvious reasons, we don't belong to the Blue Zoo (USAFA), and are not attached to HQ CAP-USAF as active duty personnel (CAP-USAF). I don't know how many times I've seen that on 'bag tags', but it ain't right.
Quote from: O-Rex on November 06, 2007, 06:00:01 AM
Quote from: A.Member on November 05, 2007, 02:02:10 PM
BTW, for those that haven't learned yet, it does not often pay to be on the cutting edge of changes in this organization. If something seems like a bad idea, such as this, it's likely to change. Being an "early adopter" is likely to cost you money. Everything has a wear out date. ;) >:D
No kidding: "salute & execute" can (literally) cost you in CAP.
I look on the bright side: nametapes can be resewn. Glad I decided against that tattoo. . . . >:D
Kinda like a guy who was in our Army Observer Course way back: he gets our aircraft name, "Mohawk" tattooed on his arm, then washes-out of the course.
"Bummer, dude: heard you now gotta go to Cook's school."
"Yeah, but first I have to get this tattoo retouched..."
Looking back, odds were against him from the beginning.
You're right. He's too dumb.
A smart guy would have used the tattoo as proof of his "Tribal Affiliation" and used the affirmative action programs to his advantage by claiming to be "Native American."
Hey... It worked for Ward Churchill!
Just as the USCAP tapes were not required until 2010, once the board approves things, there will be an interim change letter issued which will contain its own sundowns.
Based on CAP's rather conservative nature regarding members spending money on uniforms, my guess is that we won't have to resew BDU's until Spring 2009 at the earliest.
"Sig remove" and "US Civil Air Patrol name" threads merged
You can have my Wing patch when you pry my cold, dead fingers from around it.
VICTORY OVER CORN!
But I like corn, although I am in agreement for you over the wing patch!
As far as USCAP... a sigh of relief is all I can muster that some cool heads prevail.
I NEVER bought any "US Civil Air Patrol" tapes in the first place.
Quote from: O-Rex on November 06, 2007, 06:00:01 AM
Kinda like a guy who was in our Army Observer Course way back: he gets our aircraft name, "Mohawk" tattooed on his arm, then washes-out of the course.
"Bummer, dude: heard you now gotta go to Cook's school."
"Yeah, but first I have to get this tattoo retouched..."
Looking back, odds were against him from the beginning.
That's one reason why I never buy badges or patches until I've earned them. Didn't even buy Army Aircrew wings until the day I graduated.
Quote from: flyguy06 on November 06, 2007, 09:53:47 PM
I NEVER bought any "US Civil Air Patrol" tapes in the first place.
You couldn't get anything else for a while.
Ah, just think of how much money they will be worth to CAP patch collectors in 20 years!
Quote from: RiverAux on November 06, 2007, 10:53:53 PM
Ah, just think of how much money they will be worth to CAP patch collectors in 20 years!
You can have mine now. . . .
Quote from: O-Rex on November 07, 2007, 12:27:16 AM
Quote from: RiverAux on November 06, 2007, 10:53:53 PM
Ah, just think of how much money they will be worth to CAP patch collectors in 20 years!
You can have mine now. . . .
Same here. Get your US CAP branch tapes and command patches while they're hot!
How long until we see "L@@K - RARE!" USCAP tapes on eBay?
My only problem with this entire thing is that almost the entire active core of Iowa wing members had their uniforms changed to meet the U.S. CAP mandate. This rapid reversal is just as (If not more) harmful to our members than its improper implementation.
My $.02
With a mandatory wear date of 2010, why would anyone run out and change their current uniform? Am I the only person who suspected the "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" fad would go away with the CAP/CC that invented it?
No, you were not the only one.
Our squadron had not implemented the USCAP tapes, and since we have a supply of CAP tapes, none of our cadets are/will be affected.
Being on the cutting edge is dangerous...you might get cut.
Quote from: justin_bailey on November 07, 2007, 03:01:18 PM
With a mandatory wear date of 2010, why would anyone run out and change their current uniform? Am I the only person who suspected the "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" fad would go away with the CAP/CC that invented it?
Actually, the nameplates were set to change March of 2008. So, I know many members that ordered the plates with US on them, predicting a Vanguard shortage when there was a run on them close to the mandated change date...
I don't know anyone personally that bought new nametapes (just those that state as much here) nor have I seen any in person. I suspect those here are a very disportionate representation (keep in mind that a good portion of our membership can't get a basic uniform put together correctly). As such, I expect the overall to the membership impact to be very minor.
Quote from: A.Member on November 07, 2007, 03:38:07 PM
I don't know anyone personally that bought new nametapes (just those that state as much here) nor have I seen any in person. I suspect those here are a very disportionate representation (keep in mind that a good portion of our membership can't get a basic uniform put together correctly). As such, I expect the overall to the membership impact to be very minor.
I actually know several people. In fact, more than I can keep track of on my fingers AND toes. While, they are the minority, the number of folks I have come across is not trivial.
Since the mandatory wear date wasn't until 2010, it sounds like someone in Iowa jumped the gun a little bit. But then again, perhaps Iowa will continue to wear the USCAP name tapes in an attempt to establish what the rest of us will wear??
Its "not jumping the gun" implementing an approved change, especially if by coincidence you're configuring new uniforms anyway.
At $1 each, this isn't the worst thing that's ever been done...
I would imagine, from reading and hearing all about Iowa's way for the past year, that this change was mandated by someone in authority in Iowa and that is why all of the members have been harmed as mentioned above. I know of no one except new members that have changed to the USCAP nametape in our Wing. Implementing an approved change by the mandatory wear date is one thing. Mandating the change 3 years prior to the mandatory wear date is quite another. If National didn't mandate it prior to 2010, then it would appear that someone overstepped their authority by requiring the change prior to nationals requirements. National Reg's take precedence over lower units without experssed approval. I would have to consider Iowa to be a "lower unit". The point I am trying to make is that it has appeared that Iowa has mandated a lot of Reg changes that are not mandated by National and any time a lower unit does so, they do so at some risk. JMHO..
Quote from: capchiro on November 07, 2007, 04:04:32 PM
Since the mandatory wear date wasn't until 2010, it sounds like someone in Iowa jumped the gun a little bit. But then again, perhaps Iowa will continue to wear the USCAP name tapes in an attempt to establish what the rest of us will wear??
2010 was the date for the nametapes.
2008 was the date for the nameplates.
Two separate items.
Plus, after the change was made, (with a slight delay for Vanguard production ramp up) you couldn't buy name tapes that didn't have the US on them.
So while Iowa did jump the gun, the nameplate date did affect people due to the approaching due date...
Well, not everyone in Iowa made the change. I'm glad I didn't!
Quote from: capchiro on November 07, 2007, 04:18:36 PM
I would imagine, from reading and hearing all about Iowa's way for the past year, that this change was mandated by someone in authority in Iowa and that is why all of the members have been harmed as mentioned above. I know of no one except new members that have changed to the USCAP nametape in our Wing. Implementing an approved change by the mandatory wear date is one thing. Mandating the change 3 years prior to the mandatory wear date is quite another. If National didn't mandate it prior to 2010, then it would appear that someone overstepped their authority by requiring the change prior to nationals requirements. National Reg's take precedence over lower units without experssed approval. I would have to consider Iowa to be a "lower unit". The point I am trying to make is that it has appeared that Iowa has mandated a lot of Reg changes that are not mandated by National and any time a lower unit does so, they do so at some risk. JMHO..
Wouldn't it act the same as laws? Congress makes a law one way, but the State can make it more restricitive. So in this case National was a bit more laxed in how they wanted it to be implimented but Iowa wanted to make sure it was in standard so they wanted to implement a sooner date to ensure that by 2010 everyone there was already in compliance.
What about the command patch?
I'm kind of hoping that they keep the one with the Air Force Auxiliary scroll for the green bags, and the corporate ones for the blue...
So, what do you think will happen to those "neat" stickers we were supposed to put on the doors of our vans?
I've been telling our Logistics Officer to drag his feet on changing them. It's a good thing he listened to me.
Unfortunately, it's not like laws. CAP Reg's can't be broadened or made more restrictive without the blessings of National. The reason for this is that the Reg's would no longer be uniform throughout CAP as each lower unit could restrict or interpret them as they liked. It goes back to my pet peeve about the only "required" uniform for cadets is the short sleeve blue/blue pants combo, however, some units require BDU's and that is not what the Reg's say and can not be enforced. Unless the BDU's are furnished at no expense to the cadet, they can not be required to wear them for a required function. And yes basic encampment is a required function if a cadet is to reach Mitchell. If National says CAP tapes are mandated by 2010, no local commander has the authority to override that at his option. Someone is always trying to "bend" the Reg's to appear more hardcore or "stract" than the next person and sometimes it bites them.
Quote from: capchiro on November 07, 2007, 06:26:52 PM
And yes basic encampment is a required function if a cadet is to reach Mitchell.
No one ever said the encampment needs to have them wear BDUs. They could wear PT clothes all week and blues when appropriate...but I digress and it's not really on topic...sorry.
Quote from: O-Rex on November 07, 2007, 04:52:18 PM
What about the command patch?
I'm kind of hoping that they keep the one with the Air Force Auxiliary scroll for the green bags, and the corporate ones for the blue...
Why would you want different patches? Do you want it so that the green bag can ONLY be worn during AF-assigned missions? You must, because unless you're performing an AFAM, you're not acting as the Air Force Auxiliary.
CAP needs FEWER uniforms and associated doodads, not more!
Quote from: Mustang on November 07, 2007, 06:55:26 PM
CAP needs FEWER uniforms and associated doodads, not more!
Here Here!
WRT the whole early adopter thing... I'm not keen on it.
Heh. just look at the iPhone people. :)
Having said that, cue regret here:
(http://tedda.net/IMGS/USBDUs.jpg)
After being pegged to staff the CAP Recruiting booth at EAA, I realized I'd need to pony up for a new set of BDU's slightly earlier than I had planned. I certainly wasn't about to put my faded old tapes 'n junk on a nice shiny set of new BDUs. I didn't want to sew new fluorescent blue tapes on a worn uniform when it came time for the mando date either, so I opted for the US Civil Air Patrol tapes.
To those who don't think there are many with US tapes, I have personally seen
a lot more than just a handful during EAA as well as the Disaster Relief Missions in Minnesota this past Summer. YMMV
Since then I've been fortunate to come across some new "
sans US" tapes. You can bet they will be put to use.
...soon ;)
I think people need to go back and look at the first post. It does NOT say the BDU tape was changed from U.S. Civil Air Patrol. It says ONLY the signaure block on corrospondance. It would appear the NEC did nothing to change that.
Gee that's great Bill, but that's not the only letter floatin around.
Quote from: tedda on November 07, 2007, 07:57:57 PM
WRT the whole early adopter thing... I'm not keen on it.
Heh. just look at the iPhone people. :)
Off topic: But the iPod Touch looks pretty cool. All the stuff that made the iPhone cool without the phone and contract. I just wanted to have Internet in my pants anyway.
On topic: Wait for the ICL(s).
Quote from: jaybird512 on November 05, 2007, 10:44:34 PM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on November 05, 2007, 08:53:02 PM
The NB, meeting (I think) in March may or may not change the regulation on nametapes back.
According to a letter we got forwarded from the Southwest Region commander, it's already been decided:
QuoteGentlemen – please pass on to all members of your wing (and Lt. Col. Mattiello please pass on to SWR Staff). The NEC today confirmed that the official name of our organization remains "Civil Air Patrol". All signature blocks should indicate that name. Use of e-mail signature blocks indicating "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" or "U.S. Air Force Auxiliary" are not permitted and should be changed. Please see my signature block below for an example of an acceptable one.
Items such as vehicle emblems, stationery and uniform items indicating "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" will be phased out over a period of time, with further guidance to follow.
Joseph Jensen, Col., CAP
Commander
Southwest Region
Civil Air Patrol
Quote from: MIKE on November 07, 2007, 08:11:21 PM
Quote from: tedda on November 07, 2007, 07:57:57 PM
WRT the whole early adopter thing... I'm not keen on it.
Heh. just look at the iPhone people. :)
Off topic: But the iPod Touch looks pretty cool. All the stuff that made the iPhone cool without the phone and contract. I just wanted to have Internet in my pants anyway.
On topic: Wait for the ICL(s).
Off topic: yeah I get an ipod then they come out with the Ipod touch.
On topic: when do we expect an official announcement sent down to everyone?
QuoteI would imagine, from reading and hearing all about Iowa's way for the past year, that this change was mandated by someone in authority in Iowa and that is why all of the members have been harmed as mentioned above
No mandates were made. When NHQ puts out a policy, a squadron has a stock of new tapes for sale, and a seamstress is available to put on the new tapes. Why wouldn't you conform to the requirements?
As I see it the members continue to be hurt by NHQ knee jerking
Quote from: BillB on November 07, 2007, 08:01:49 PM
I think people need to go back and look at the first post. It does NOT say the BDU tape was changed from U.S. Civil Air Patrol. It says ONLY the signaure block on corrospondance. It would appear the NEC did nothing to change that.
Perhaps, sir, they simply allowed the ICL to expire with no action. I think from now on I'm going to wait for an ICL to become permanent before breaking out my wallet or sewing machine.
Technically most of those uniform ICLs are already expired by the letter of CAPR 5-4.
Quote from: TDHenderson on November 07, 2007, 04:48:44 PM
Well, not everyone in Iowa made the change. I'm glad I didn't!
Glad I didn't make the change either...(no Money)
Quote from: MIKE on November 08, 2007, 06:23:24 PM
Technically most of those uniform ICLs are already expired by the letter of CAPR 5-4.
Quote from: CAPR 5-4, Page 4
Interim Change Letters (ICL). Situations requiring immediate action due to a state of emergency, an unforeseen circumstance involving the preservation of life or property, or other contingencies that may require prompt action may result in an interim change letter being issued outlining immediate policies. ICLs may be issued by any level of command unless specifically limited or prohibited by the regulation or manual governing that subject matter. Issuance of policies by ICL is a temporary measure.
a. ICLs outlining immediate policies to be followed for a limited time will be issued with a stated expiration date. Such expiration dates shall not be more than 180 days from the date the letter was issued.
b. ICLs outlining immediate policies that are intended to become permanent shall be incorporated into an appropriate publication within 90 days of the date the letter was issued.
Wow - you learn something new everyday. Assuming that the all the uniform shuffles were classified as ICL's, some of them "died on the table" before
he who shall be nameless was removed.
Of course, reading the regulation regarding ICLs, there was no "state of emergency, unforeseen circumstance involving the preservation of life or property, or other contingency that may require prompt action" in the creation of all the new uniform regulations. So technically, there should never have been ICLs issued about them.
But then, He who shall not be named made a habit of shooting from the hip, didn't he?
Jack
FYI.
This was the reply from Susan Parker our Chief of Staff received regarding the many questions received by our members in Michigan:
Quote from: Susan Parker
-----Original Message-----
From: Parker, Susie [mailto:xxx@XXX.xxx]
Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2007 6:12 PM
To: Saile, Pamela
Subject: RE: U S Civil Air Patrol
The details are still being worked out so I can't give you any thing
official at this time. Whatever comes of the decision there will be a
phase in date for any uniform changes. I'll let you know as soon as
possible.
SUSAN P. PARKER
National Headquarters, Civil Air Patrol
105 S. Hansell Street
Maxwell AFB AL 36112-6332
Voice: XXX-XXX-XXXX, extension XXX
Fax: XXX-XXX-XXXX
In my mind I'm sure they're trying to work out the way they're going to handle the number of upset members who purchased "U.S." tapes/plates/badges etc.
I'm sure there are those in leadership who want to quickly rescind some of the changes made by Pineda but they still should have waited to share that information until after the decisions have been made.
Just my opinion.
I'm just glad I waited...I know I'm not the only one who had seen the writing on the wall and wanted to wait things out a bit before 'investing' any more of my personal funds.
minor email sanitization -TA
The strips cost $1.35 each and we all know we'll be given years worth of phase in time to switch back. I think we'll survive.
Quote from: jaybird512 on November 09, 2007, 06:50:39 PM
The strips cost $1.35 each and we all know we'll be given years worth of phase in time to switch back. I think we'll survive.
Actually $1.40 :-) ..and for most that's x 2-3. Then you add in the $9.25 for the brushed silver nameplate and $3.00 Blue two line Corporate nameplate, oh, and let's not forget about the command patch, there's another $2.85 (not including the Velcro). Let's not forget about another $7.00 for shipping.
That's close to $30 I'm sure some folks would have rather spent elsewhere.
Will we survive, sure, but that's not the point.
I'm sorry to hear that you're getting ripped off... or got ripped off. You're not shopping at the right place.
The point is that we're "crying over spilled milk", as the saying goes.
You know, in the grand scheme of things, there are trade-offs:
Yeah, it's a bummer that some of us got snookered with the U.S-thing, but the up-side is that we got rank on the hat, which was a sticking point for alot of us for years.
Perhaps I missed it on someone's post (this is a long thread) but any decision on the Command Patch? Corporate? USAF Aux? Right now I have a couple for the former for blue bags, and the latter for green bags.
Thank Goodness for velcro.
Does all this mean that the "branding initiative" is also going away?
Quote from: O-Rex on November 10, 2007, 03:27:54 AM
Does all this mean that the "branding initiative" is also going away?
Depends on what initiative you're talking about...
I think that a new brand is in the works already that utlizes the pre-existing name of Civil Air Patrol.
What would you think if the individual missions were branded separately? Similar to how BSA brands each of their programs separately...Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, Venture, etc...
I notice that "US" has been dropped from the cover of the Nov-Dec Volunteer.
I'm still waiting for the ICL(s).
Changing the magazine name, changing what goes in press releases, etc. does not require a regulation and/or interim change letter. Just like there wasn't one adding "US" the title of the magazine in the first place.
The only thing that needs an interim change letter to rescind the 7-10-07 Interim Change Letter regarding name tapes and tapes. Since it took them about 4 months after the change was approved to issue that letter, I think we can expect something in a few more months.
Quote from: RiverAux on November 18, 2007, 10:13:25 PM
Changing the magazine name, changing what goes in press releases, etc. does not require a regulation and/or interim change letter. Just like there wasn't one adding "US" the title of the magazine in the first place.
The only thing that needs an interim change letter to rescind the 7-10-07 Interim Change Letter regarding name tapes and tapes. Since it took them about 4 months after the change was approved to issue that letter, I think we can expect something in a few more months.
According to CAPR 5-4, Para 4a and b, ICL's are good for only 180 days for a temporary change and 90 days for a permanent change.
Time limit has already expired for a "permanant" change and will expire in January for a "temporary" change.
In theory they could just do nothing and the problem will take care of itself.
I think you misunderstood. Not all ICLs "expire" at all. I had thought that was the case based on comments here and was going to say something about it when I made my comment, but prudently decided to check the actual regulation.
Here is what it says:
Quote4. Interim Change Letters (ICL). Situations requiring immediate action due to a state of emergency, an unforeseen circumstance involving the preservation of life or property, or other contingencies that may require prompt action may result in an interim change letter being issued outlining immediate policies. ICLs may be issued by any level of command unless specifically limited or prohibited by the regulation or manual governing that subject matter. Issuance of policies by ICL is a temporary measure.
a. ICLs outlining immediate policies to be followed for a limited time will be issued with a stated expiration date. Such expiration dates shall not be more than 180 days from the date the letter was issued.
b. ICLs outlining immediate policies that are intended to become permanent shall be incorporated into an appropriate publication within 90 days of the date the letter was issued.
ICLs issued under 4a for limited time policies would expire based on a specific expiration date (not more than 180 days) that would have been included in the ICL itself. However, this ICL wasn't issued under that provision.
Since they envisioned the US name tapes to be a permanent change, this ICL was obviously issued under 4b. Note the language does not say they expire in 90 days. It says that they need to be incorporated into a regulation within 90 days. It does not say that they expire if they are not put in a regulation within that time frame.
As we all know, the process for actually issuing regulations has been screwed up for years and the leadership has discussed streamlining the process several times. Note that there are a whole string of ICLs for 39-1 going back several years that haven't yet been put into the actual regulation, but everybody still takes them as gospel.
Just a note.....got my picture ID card yesterday......still has US Civil Air Patrol on the top line. And I renwed after the NEC mtg. The cards were made up just last week according to National.
I was told that the name would remain Civil Air Patrol too. My squadron as well as many others have already purchased the new emblems for our aircraft. Cadet binders have U.S. Civil Air Patrol command patch on them also.
New stickers are in the works for the A/C - red rectangles to go over the US part. Source - RUMINT from a Nat staffer.
Thats just silly.
But, if true that means that the command patch is probably going to change again to have the US come off of it. I never minded the US on that patch (though I prefered the Air Forc Aux version). I just didn't have the foresight to see that it was the first step in a plan to change our name.
Quote from: RiverAux on November 23, 2007, 09:29:56 PM
Thats just silly.
But, if true that means that the command patch is probably going to change again to have the US come off of it. I never minded the US on that patch (though I prefered the Air Forc Aux version). I just didn't have the foresight to see that it was the first step in a plan to change our name.
The NHQ Uniform committee is going to recommend going back to the MAJCOM patch with US AIR FORCE AUXILLIARY on it. Many have not changed to the new one and there is still a large supply of the original. This patch was already appoved by HQ USAF and it was only CAP that changed it so NB can approve this and its done.
Quote from: SarDragon on November 23, 2007, 03:40:50 AM
New stickers are in the works for the A/C - red rectangles to go over the US part. Source - RUMINT from a Nat staffer.
Why would it be a red rectangle? A blue one would cover the US and not be readily visible.
Quote from: LtCol White on November 23, 2007, 11:12:16 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on November 23, 2007, 09:29:56 PM
Thats just silly.
But, if true that means that the command patch is probably going to change again to have the US come off of it. I never minded the US on that patch (though I prefered the Air Forc Aux version). I just didn't have the foresight to see that it was the first step in a plan to change our name.
The NHQ Uniform committee is going to recommend going back to the MAJCOM patch with US AIR FORCE AUXILLIARY on it. Many have not changed to the new one and there is still a large supply of the original. This patch was already appoved by HQ USAF and it was only CAP that changed it so NB can approve this and its done.
Woo-Hoo YES!!!!!
Quote from: mikeylikey on November 24, 2007, 12:37:34 AM
Quote from: LtCol White on November 23, 2007, 11:12:16 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on November 23, 2007, 09:29:56 PM
Thats just silly.
But, if true that means that the command patch is probably going to change again to have the US come off of it. I never minded the US on that patch (though I prefered the Air Forc Aux version). I just didn't have the foresight to see that it was the first step in a plan to change our name.
The NHQ Uniform committee is going to recommend going back to the MAJCOM patch with US AIR FORCE AUXILLIARY on it. Many have not changed to the new one and there is still a large supply of the original. This patch was already appoved by HQ USAF and it was only CAP that changed it so NB can approve this and its done.
Woo-Hoo YES!!!!!
Ditto. Hopefully once again, my procrastination will pay off.
Excellent! Since I haven't been able to fit in my flight suit since the change, I never made it and the old patch is still on it. Assuming I can eventually get back in I'll be good to go (unless I need to sew on a name badge).
Fingers crossed...
Quote from: Eclipse on November 23, 2007, 11:13:30 PM
Quote from: SarDragon on November 23, 2007, 03:40:50 AM
New stickers are in the works for the A/C - red rectangles to go over the US part. Source - RUMINT from a Nat staffer.
Why would it be a red rectangle? A blue one would cover the US and not be readily visible.
OOPS! Busted. It would be blue rectangles for the doors, and red for the tails. (But I don't recall seeing any tails with US on them.)
Quote from: SarDragon on November 24, 2007, 09:26:20 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on November 23, 2007, 11:13:30 PM
Quote from: SarDragon on November 23, 2007, 03:40:50 AM
New stickers are in the works for the A/C - red rectangles to go over the US part. Source - RUMINT from a Nat staffer.
Why would it be a red rectangle? A blue one would cover the US and not be readily visible.
OOPS! Busted. It would be blue rectangles for the doors, and red for the tails. (But I don't recall seeing any tails with US on them.)
Why would they send out blue rectangles? Just remove the patch and replace it with the current one.
They're not painted on, it's a self adhesive patch made out of vinyl.
Now if they would just replace the prop and triangle insignia on the wings with a proper star and bar insignia.....
Quote from: PHall on November 24, 2007, 04:13:10 PM
Quote from: SarDragon on November 24, 2007, 09:26:20 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on November 23, 2007, 11:13:30 PM
Quote from: SarDragon on November 23, 2007, 03:40:50 AM
New stickers are in the works for the A/C - red rectangles to go over the US part. Source - RUMINT from a Nat staffer.
Why would it be a red rectangle? A blue one would cover the US and not be readily visible.
OOPS! Busted. It would be blue rectangles for the doors, and red for the tails. (But I don't recall seeing any tails with US on them.)
Why would they send out blue rectangles? Just remove the patch and replace it with the current one.
They're not painted on, it's a self adhesive patch made out of vinyl.
A blue (or red) cover up is quicker and less expensive than a new decal. I believe that that the insignia on the airplanes (at least) is supposed to be professionally installed, and they aren't exactly cheap.
Quote from: PHall on November 24, 2007, 04:13:10 PM
Quote from: SarDragon on November 24, 2007, 09:26:20 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on November 23, 2007, 11:13:30 PM
Quote from: SarDragon on November 23, 2007, 03:40:50 AM
New stickers are in the works for the A/C - red rectangles to go over the US part. Source - RUMINT from a Nat staffer.
Why would it be a red rectangle? A blue one would cover the US and not be readily visible.
OOPS! Busted. It would be blue rectangles for the doors, and red for the tails. (But I don't recall seeing any tails with US on them.)
Why would they send out blue rectangles? Just remove the patch and replace it with the current one.
They're not painted on, it's a self adhesive patch made out of vinyl.
Now if they would just replace the prop and triangle insignia on the wings with a proper star and bar insignia.....
The prop-and-triangle has a lot of tradition behind it.
The first insignia on our aircrat was a prop-and-triangle in a blue disc. The red prop was removed when the AAF took out the red circle in the center of the star. (1942, after the Doolittle raid).
The current insignia was used in the 1950's.
Does anyone have a "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" tape that hasn't been cut or sewn yet? I'd like to buy one off a member, or trade for a new-old one which I think I might have laying around.
I procrastinated getting them for my uniform (whew) but also did not get one for my collection. Now they seem to be unavailable from the Vanguard Empire.
-Ace
Quote from: alamrcn on November 24, 2007, 11:58:52 PM
Does anyone have a "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" tape that hasn't been cut or sewn yet? I'd like to buy one off a member, or trade for a new-old one which I think I might have laying around.
I procrastinated getting them for my uniform (whew) but also did not get one for my collection. Now they seem to be unavailable from the Vanguard Empire.
-Ace
Have you checked with the Hock Shop?
Quote from: alamrcn on November 24, 2007, 11:58:52 PM
Does anyone have a "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" tape that hasn't been cut or sewn yet? I'd like to buy one off a member, or trade for a new-old one which I think I might have laying around.
I procrastinated getting them for my uniform (whew) but also did not get one for my collection. Now they seem to be unavailable from the Vanguard Empire.
-Ace
It's sitting here on my desk waiting for a stamp. I'll mail it Monday.
Thanks! Didn't want to bug you about it, heh.
The Hock Shop probably does have some of them still. Wierd that Vanguard pulled them.... wonder who gave them the order, but did not the membership to stop buying them? That's kinda confusing when the last official word (on THIS item) was to use the new US Civil Air Patrol tape, and now Vanguard is saying to use the old one.
Is this a paperwork problem, or did someone not pass the buck correctly to let us all know? I'm thinking "they" are still arguing a gentle way to break the news to the members, as well as come up with a time frame.
Lt Col White may have the skinny on the working status of an new, pending order.
-Ace
Quote from: alamrcn on November 27, 2007, 08:16:34 PM
The Hock Shop probably does have some of them still. Wierd that Vanguard pulled them.... wonder who gave them the order, but did not the membership to stop buying them? That's kinda confusing when the last official word (on THIS item) was to use the new US Civil Air Patrol tape, and now Vanguard is saying to use the old one.
Despite a few the conspiracy theorists, VG does not write the regs, and as we all know, whether something is or is not approved for wear does not seem to be connected to VG's stock.
Since these are readily available from other vendors, availability is a non-issue in regards to wear.
I have about 20 extra, which will be available to anyone who wants one for the cost of a SASE >AFTER< NHQ offcially recinds their wear on the uniform.
The hock does still have some of the US Civil Air Patrol tapes. I noticed that the old style (new style ???) Civil Air Patrol tapes have returned to the Hock Shop. And you guys are right, the US tapes have been pulled from VG's site and replaced with the old style. Kinda makes you wonder since at the moment "US Civil Air Patrol" is what's mandated by NHQ. Either someone at vanguard reads this board or they have a spy! :D
Looking forward to the "uniform change of the week" next Monday...
I think many of us have learned to start avoiding being on the cusp of a uniform change. It's fun to be first - but various clarifications, corrections, or changes seem to imminantly follow the new stuff these days. I think I'll sit a couple months from here on out when changes come about, or even let some stuff ride right up to the phaseout date!
Whether you were "US Civil Air Patrol" or "Civil Air Patrol" tapes, just hold on tight and don't do anything right now. If you're like me, having a "50/50" chance means there is a right choice and the one I chose!
Quote from: Eclipse on November 27, 2007, 09:23:56 PM
...whether something is or is not approved for wear does not seem to be connected to VG's stock.
There was that time many years ago when National had set a date for a fairly quick phase out of the Royal Blue smurf suit, then found out about an irreversable order the Bookstore had just placed for a couple hundred more -- oops! National quickly retracted the date, and I'm not sure how long it took before a new date was announced.
-Ace
I received a new CAP photo ID card yesterday with "US Civil Air Patrol" along the top. I was hoping that they would make the change to "Civil Air Patrol" since I ordered it just last week. >:(
I wonder what is taking NHQ so long to put out some sort of official guidance and standardize back to the "Civil Air Patrol" name on everything.
Quote from: FlyingTerp on November 28, 2007, 04:15:47 PM
I wonder what is taking NHQ so long to put out some sort of official guidance and standardize back to the "Civil Air Patrol" name on everything.
And risk looking fickle?!?!? ;D
Quote from: FlyingTerp on November 28, 2007, 04:15:47 PM
I wonder what is taking NHQ so long to put out some sort of official guidance and standardize back to the "Civil Air Patrol" name on everything.
For starters, the uniform committees don't even meet until February...
I would imagine that it will take some time to undo what the previous Nat'l Cmdr did and get back on track. Give our new Cmdr some time. I'm disappointed they didn't post the National Cadet Activities sooner. The deadline for registering is 31 December. But, I can see where there may be "a cog in the wheels of progress" with the holidays and all. I have a feeling things will start changing faster after the holidays.
There's a quite a few people who have joined in the past few months that purchased and applied the "new" US Civil Air Patrol tapes, not to mention those existing members who took the initiative to change to the "new" tapes quickly. Given the fact that the US Civil Air Patrol tapes had a mandatory phase in date of 01 Mar 2010, is there going to be an even longer "phase back in" for the return of the Civil Air Patrol tapes?
Quote from: Grumpy on November 28, 2007, 05:07:20 PM
The deadline for registering is 31 December.
You mean January 15th. It was changed for this year.
Thank you, that gives us some breathing room. Can you tell me where was that posted so I can pass it on?
Thanks again,
Grumpy, I think this is what you're looking for;
http://www.cap.gov/index.cfm?nodeID=6995&audienceID=4
Now back to the topic.
The new CAP Cadet Staff Handbook has been released:
http://level2.cap.gov/documents/P052_015.pdf
The back page contains the most recent version of the MAJCOM >without< the "US" in the center.
But the cadinks on the front page have Wing patches on their Blues!!!!!
Quote from: Eclipse on December 03, 2007, 08:57:35 PM
The new CAP Cadet Staff Handbook has been released:
http://level2.cap.gov/documents/P052_015.pdf
The back page contains the most recent version of the MAJCOM >without< the "US" in the center.
That is so annoying. We've had the "US" below the triangle since the war years. It's still a part of the "overseas patch" the OCONUS sqdns wear. There's just no reason to change it.
It's things like this that give the "Tinfoil Hat Comp Sqdn's" traction for their stories about Vanguard and the uniform change conspiracies.
I think it would be a major set back if NHQ had to dispose of every picture in their inventory when there was a new uniform change...
Quote from: jimmydeanno on December 03, 2007, 09:29:38 PM
I think it would be a major set back if NHQ had to dispose of every picture in their inventory when there was a new uniform change...
I agree whole heartedly. Just think how much money it would cost to go through every regulation, manual, pamphlet, etc., etc. to change the pictures for a minor uniform change.
Quote from: Grumpy on December 03, 2007, 10:05:46 PM
Quote from: jimmydeanno on December 03, 2007, 09:29:38 PM
I think it would be a major set back if NHQ had to dispose of every picture in their inventory when there was a new uniform change...
I agree whole heartedly. Just think how much money it would cost to go through every regulation, manual, pamphlet, etc., etc. to change the pictures for a minor uniform change.
There's no need for a Ministry of Truth that changes history to reflect current ideas, but pamphlets created past a certain sundown for something glaring, especially for a pamphlet that proposes to be the guide for running the CP, shoudl correct or corrected (in the case of revisions).
I guarantee you members will be holding this up and saying that, based on the date, the wing patch must still be ok on the blues.
Quote from: Eclipse on December 04, 2007, 01:48:29 AM
Quote from: Grumpy on December 03, 2007, 10:05:46 PM
Quote from: jimmydeanno on December 03, 2007, 09:29:38 PM
I think it would be a major set back if NHQ had to dispose of every picture in their inventory when there was a new uniform change...
I agree whole heartedly. Just think how much money it would cost to go through every regulation, manual, pamphlet, etc., etc. to change the pictures for a minor uniform change.
There's no need for a Ministry of Truth that changes history to reflect current ideas, but pamphlets created past a certain sundown for something glaring, especially for a pamphlet that proposes to be the guide for running the CP, shoudl correct or corrected (in the case of revisions).
I guarantee you members will be holding this up and saying that, based on the date, the wing patch must still be ok on the blues.
I only used pamphlets as an example. However, I can not see publishing a whole new document every time a uniform in a photo changes. If there is a big change on procedures and you're going to change the document anyway; then do it all at once, photos and all. People are always talking about keeping costs down
About the wing patch on the blues. I still remember when the Air Force wore the numbered AF on their left shoulder (A custom from our Army heritage).
I was sorry to see them/us remove the wing patch because it identified what unit, wing, command, what ever, you belonged to and helped bolster esprit-de-corps. I agree if you're on a function on an AF base and you need a new blue shirt it makes it easier just to iron it.
Quote from: Grumpy on December 04, 2007, 06:39:10 AM
However, I can not see publishing a whole new document every time a uniform in a photo changes.
Talk about expensive. Plus, at the rate we're going, they'd have to replace the pictures by the time they got the pamphlets from the printer. >:D
Quote from: JCW0312 on December 04, 2007, 03:55:21 PM
Quote from: Grumpy on December 04, 2007, 06:39:10 AM
However, I can not see publishing a whole new document every time a uniform in a photo changes.
Talk about expensive. Plus, at the rate we're going, they'd have to replace the pictures by the time they got the pamphlets from the printer. >:D
Of course since they don't actually "print" them anymore, the real cost approaches zero.
Quote from: Eclipse on December 04, 2007, 06:57:00 PM
Of course since they don't actually "print" them anymore, the real cost approaches zero.
How sure are you about that? ;)
PS: Perhaps the last 10 posts should be attached to the CS Handbook thread in the CP section...
When is Vanguard going to get the memo...
They just keep adding more and more U.S. CAP stuff ???
Quote from: thp on December 06, 2007, 01:55:29 AM
When is Vanguard going to get the memo...
They just keep adding more and more U.S. CAP stuff ???
Such as? I just looked at their site and couldn't find any new US CAP stuff (maybe I wasn't looking in the right spot?). I noticed that they removed the "US CAP" nametapes.
Try CAP>NOVELTY ITEMS>MISC.
Quote from: thp on December 06, 2007, 02:04:06 AM
Try CAP>NOVELTY ITEMS>MISC.
Ahhh. you weren't kidding. Pretty funny they should add these items
after they pull the US CAP bdu tapes. I guess it takes a little time for the shipment to arrive from China, and you gotta sell the stuff, right? Sounds like some collectors items to me.
Well, they are NOVELTY items now, aren't they?
Quote from: RiverAux on December 06, 2007, 03:38:04 AM
Well, they are NOVELTY items now, aren't they?
I hope someone puts them into the Timecapsule that is due to be sealed up in a few days.
^You know you want an ultra marine blue fanny pack with a white screen printed cessna on it...
Can someone tell me where the US Civil Air Patrol patch was "unauthorized"? All the NEC did was remove the US Civil Air Patrol from corrospondance signature block.
Quote from: BillB on December 06, 2007, 01:43:47 PM
Can someone tell me where the US Civil Air Patrol patch was "unauthorized"? All the NEC did was remove the US Civil Air Patrol from corrospondance signature block.
It was not, nor were >ANY< changes made to uniform item wear or phase out.
Although that is expected to occur soon, those changes cannot even be discussed until the uniform committees meet in February.
this thread has outlived it's usefulness and is only serving to cause confusion.