[redacted by admin], there have to be better ways of getting CAP in the news...
Seeing as the NEC has been systematically stacked with his ditto-monkeys [Man, I miss the leadership of Col Kuddes, Col Greenhut, and Col Glasgow], it will be up to the Board of Governors to force him to step down.
Hot off the press:
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/local/states/florida/counties/broward_county/16286249.htm (http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/local/states/florida/counties/broward_county/16286249.htm)
Civil Air Patrol probes cheating claim-
The Inspector General of the Civil Air Patrol is investigating a complaint that the commander of the volunteer organization had someone else take a military test for him.
BY ERIKA BOLSTAD
ebolstad@MiamiHerald.com
The national Civil Air Patrol is investigating an accusation that its commander, Maj. Gen. Antonio Pineda, had a subordinate take a military exam for him.
Pineda, who has led the volunteer search-and-rescue patrol since August 2005, lives in Plantation and has served as an agent with the Florida Department of Law Enforcement.
The accusations surfaced this week in the online newsletter, News of the Force, which is based in Tampa and covers military-related issues.
The article details a complaint by one of Pineda's former volunteers, Ray Hayden of Tamarac. Hayden told The Miami Herald that in 2002 and 2003, he took a correspondence course and exams on Pineda's behalf, through the Air Force's Air Command and Staff College.
''I took his exams for him,'' Hayden said Wednesday.
A spokesman for the Civil Air Patrol confirmed that the organization's inspector general, Col. James Linker, is investigating Hayden's claims.
Pineda has denied any wrongdoing, and in a statement released Wednesday out of the Civil Air Patrol's headquarters at Maxwell Air Force Base in Texas, said ``the allegations are totally false and without merit, and the investigation will prove so beyond any doubt.''
''In the meantime, with the continued support and help of CAP's National Board members, I will continue to focus all of my energy to ensure CAP continues to achieve its goals and to promote it as the best professional volunteer organization in America,'' Pineda said in the statement.
The Civil Air Patrol, a civilian auxiliary of the Air Force, has 57,000 volunteers nationwide. Their main function is to help with search-and-rescue missions; volunteers operate one of the largest fleets of single-engine piston aircraft in the world.
Hayden resigned from the Civil Air Patrol on Friday. He said he was forced to resign following a dispute in October with fellow volunteers. The dispute stemmed from a training session where Hayden refused to put his Social Security number on a sign-in sheet.
''Why the hell did Hayden drop off the information grenade and walk out of the tent?'' Hayden asked, referring to himself in the third person. ``That's the question everyone wants to know.''
He said Wednesday that he decided to make his complaint public because he was angry at Pineda for being unsupportive in his dispute with fellow volunteers. Pineda told him in an e-mail that he should resign, Hayden said, which angered him because he had already decided that he didn't want to remain a member.
Hayden, a recreational pilot with about 200 hours of flying experience, said that he joined the Civil Air Patrol to be able to fly more. In his nearly seven years with the volunteer organization, he flew just twice.
Click here to find out more!
[admin edit: removed blatant name-calling comment, in violation of code of conduct]
The story was originally broken on "News of the Force" on December 19th, 2006. The article is available here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NewsoftheForce/message/4696 (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NewsoftheForce/message/4696)
Quote from: CAPlikeCrack on December 21, 2006, 02:45:09 PM
[redacted by admin], there have to be better ways of getting CAP in the news...
Seeing as the NEC has been systematically stacked with his ditto-monkeys [Man, I miss the leadership of Col Kuddes, Col Greenhut, and Col Glasgow], it will be up to the Board of Governors to force him to step down.
Hot off the press:
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/local/states/florida/counties/broward_county/16286249.htm (http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/local/states/florida/counties/broward_county/16286249.htm)
Civil Air Patrol probes cheating claim-
The Inspector General of the Civil Air Patrol is investigating a complaint that the commander of the volunteer organization had someone else take a military test for him.
BY ERIKA BOLSTAD
ebolstad@MiamiHerald.com
The national Civil Air Patrol is investigating an accusation that its commander, Maj. Gen. Antonio Pineda, had a subordinate take a military exam for him.
Pineda, who has led the volunteer search-and-rescue patrol since August 2005, lives in Plantation and has served as an agent with the Florida Department of Law Enforcement.
The accusations surfaced this week in the online newsletter, News of the Force, which is based in Tampa and covers military-related issues.
The article details a complaint by one of Pineda's former volunteers, Ray Hayden of Tamarac. Hayden told The Miami Herald that in 2002 and 2003, he took a correspondence course and exams on Pineda's behalf, through the Air Force's Air Command and Staff College.
''I took his exams for him,'' Hayden said Wednesday.
A spokesman for the Civil Air Patrol confirmed that the organization's inspector general, Col. James Linker, is investigating Hayden's claims.
Pineda has denied any wrongdoing, and in a statement released Wednesday out of the Civil Air Patrol's headquarters at Maxwell Air Force Base in Texas, said ``the allegations are totally false and without merit, and the investigation will prove so beyond any doubt.''
''In the meantime, with the continued support and help of CAP's National Board members, I will continue to focus all of my energy to ensure CAP continues to achieve its goals and to promote it as the best professional volunteer organization in America,'' Pineda said in the statement.
The Civil Air Patrol, a civilian auxiliary of the Air Force, has 57,000 volunteers nationwide. Their main function is to help with search-and-rescue missions; volunteers operate one of the largest fleets of single-engine piston aircraft in the world.
Hayden resigned from the Civil Air Patrol on Friday. He said he was forced to resign following a dispute in October with fellow volunteers. The dispute stemmed from a training session where Hayden refused to put his Social Security number on a sign-in sheet.
''Why the hell did Hayden drop off the information grenade and walk out of the tent?'' Hayden asked, referring to himself in the third person. ``That's the question everyone wants to know.''
He said Wednesday that he decided to make his complaint public because he was angry at Pineda for being unsupportive in his dispute with fellow volunteers. Pineda told him in an e-mail that he should resign, Hayden said, which angered him because he had already decided that he didn't want to remain a member.
Hayden, a recreational pilot with about 200 hours of flying experience, said that he joined the Civil Air Patrol to be able to fly more. In his nearly seven years with the volunteer organization, he flew just twice.
Click here to find out more!
[admin edit: removed blatant name-calling comment, in violation of code of conduct]
Oh wow, they moved an AIR FORCE base (MAXWELL) to TEXAS!
The information below is from the national PAO listserve yesterday. I've yet to see the NHQ Press Statement posted anywhere, so I thought I'd post it here as this thread was reborn -- NOT to fan any flame wars but as a service to my fellow PAO's and our members. Many of us are being asked questions about this situation. Hopefully, the info below can help you answer these questions better or, atleast, point inquiries in the proper direction.
-------------------
To all CAP PAOs:
If you receive any media queries concerning the fore-mentioned allegations made against the CAP national commander by News of the Force, et al, please refer them to the PA staff at CAP National Headquarters. POC info as follows:
Julie DeBardelaben @ work (334) 953-7593 or cell (334) 462-5305
Jim Tynan @ work (334) 953-9949 or cell (334) 398-3312
FYI -- The only official response NHQ will be providing the media reads as follows:
NHQ PRESS STATEMENT
The Civil Air Patrol has initiated an investigation into the allegations that have been made against CAP National Commander Maj. Gen. Antonio Pineda with regard to his completion of the Air Force's Air Command and Staff College.
The investigation is being conducted by CAP Inspector General Col. James Linker, who reports directly to the the CAP Board of Governors, the governing body of CAP. Once the investigation is complete, the results will be provided to the chairman of the BoG, retired Air Force Lt. Gen. Nick Kehoe, and made public as appropriate.
In a statement released today, General Pineda stated the allegations are totally false and without merit, and the investigation will prove so beyond any doubt. "These allegations will be investigated thoroughly by the CAP inspector general. In the meantime, with the continued support and help of CAP's National Board members, I will continue to focus all of my energy to ensure CAP continues to achieve its goals and to promote it as the best professional volunteer organization in America."
As always, thanks for your support and for all you do as professional CAP volunteers!
Jim
Sr. Mbr. James F. Tynan
Public Affairs Manager
CAP National Headquarters
105 S. Hansell St.
Maxwell AFB, AL 36112
(334) 953-9949
DSN 493-9949
www.cap.gov
Its been a while since I looked at this, but is there a "Recreational Pilot" license or am I thinking of something else?
I can think of only one way a pilot that was qualified to fly a CAP plane would end up taking only 2 flights in 7 years --- they never really wanted to fly in the first place. Someone who has been a pilot for at least 7 years but who only has about 200 hours of flying obviously hasn't devoted a lot of effort to it. Heck, just 3 hours a month over that period would put you over 250 hours and I would expect most competent pilots to want at least that much proficiency flying.
At times like this it is important to take it "line by line" and analyze it for better understand and speculation...
Hot off the press:
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/local/states/florida/counties/broward_county/16286249.htm (http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/local/states/florida/counties/broward_county/16286249.htm)
Civil Air Patrol probes cheating claim-The Inspector General of the Civil Air Patrol is investigating a complaint that the commander of the volunteer organization had someone else take a military test for him.
BY ERIKA BOLSTAD
ebolstad@MiamiHerald.com
QuoteThe national Civil Air Patrol is investigating an accusation that its commander, Maj. Gen. Antonio Pineda, had a subordinate take a military exam for him.
I believe this is an attempt to "try" the man in the public venue instead of the system. How stupid, most people don't know about the CIVIL AIR PATROL and now this. The Enemies of CAP must be having a field day. I want you all that relish in this to recall this when your funding is cut next year. Especially if this turns out to be nothing.
QuotePineda, who has led the volunteer search-and-rescue patrol since August 2005, lives in Plantation and has served as an agent with the Florida Department of Law Enforcement.
This seems objective.
QuoteThe accusations surfaced this week in the online newsletter, News of the Force, which is based in Tampa and covers military-related issues.
Now there's a red flag. An obviously biased and agendistic source against CAP by what some have described as a person who is "disgruntled" at best.
QuoteThe article details a complaint by one of Pineda's former volunteers, Ray Hayden of Tamarac. Hayden told The Miami Herald that in 2002 and 2003, he took a correspondence course and exams on Pineda's behalf, through the Air Force's Air Command and Staff College.
I would say this is agendistic grandstanding. I can't wait to see what the IG uncovers about Hayden.
Quote''I took his exams for him,'' Hayden said Wednesday.
Well, the IG has plenty of proof against Hayden if this is in fact true. By his own admission. Again, reserve judgment for the IG's official statements. I don't know the Major General from Adam, but every man deserves a fair shake.
QuoteA spokesman for the Civil Air Patrol confirmed that the organization's inspector general, Col. James Linker, is investigating Hayden's claims.
I'll look into this but this doesn't sound too far fetched.
QuotePineda has denied any wrongdoing, and in a statement released Wednesday out of the Civil Air Patrol's headquarters at Maxwell Air Force Base in Texas, said ``the allegations are totally false and without merit, and the investigation will prove so beyond any doubt.''
One would think a news publication would confirm some basic facts about the location, not of CAPNHQ, but a US military installation. But, when one is rushing to get a story out...facts are sometimes stubborn things.
Quote''In the meantime, with the continued support and help of CAP's National Board members, I will continue to focus all of my energy to ensure CAP continues to achieve its goals and to promote it as the best professional volunteer organization in America,'' Pineda said in the statement.
Seems objective...
QuoteThe Civil Air Patrol, a civilian auxiliary of the Air Force, has 57,000 volunteers nationwide. Their main function is to help with search-and-rescue missions; volunteers operate one of the largest fleets of single-engine piston aircraft in the world.
Well, no mention of the three missions of the Civil Air Patrol as one might expect. This sort of misrepresents the organization a bit. One would think looking up such data would have provided them with the correct information on the location of Maxwell, AFB.
QuoteHayden resigned from the Civil Air Patrol on Friday. He said he was forced to resign following a dispute in October with fellow volunteers. The dispute stemmed from a training session where Hayden refused to put his Social Security number on a sign-in sheet.
Hummmm.... tell us more?
Quote''Why the hell did Hayden drop off the information grenade and walk out of the tent?'' Hayden asked, referring to himself in the third person. ``That's the question everyone wants to know.''
Yes, let's hear it. Speaking in third person is so "James Bond Villianish."
QuoteHe said Wednesday that he decided to make his complaint public because he was angry at Pineda for being unsupportive in his dispute with fellow volunteers. Pineda told him in an e-mail that he should resign, Hayden said, which angered him because he had already decided that he didn't want to remain a member.
That smacks of questionable practice on the part of Mr Hayden. Remind me never to rise above the Group LEVEL!
QuoteHayden, a recreational pilot with about 200 hours of flying experience, said that he joined the Civil Air Patrol to be able to fly more. In his nearly seven years with the volunteer organization, he flew just twice.
What does that mean? He only flew twice? What kind of CAP Officers do we have up there? Sounds like we have some people that actually came into the CAP to participate in its politics.
I cannot say I am pleased by any of this. Here I am busting my backside building up a unit and this meshuggener BLOWS this thing well before any part of the system had a chance to work.
You know what I am inclined to think? I think there have been some looking for any reason to oust this man. I think, if he is guilty, he should be strug-up (metaphorically); but if he is falsely accused that lots of damage will have been made to CAP.
:-[ This is a sad state of affair no matter what is true.
Major Carrales
Quote from: Major Carrales on December 21, 2006, 03:49:38 PM
At times like this it is important to take it "line by line" and analyze it for better u nderstand and speculation...
Joe, I think Corpus Christi is far enough away from Florida so as NOT to influence John and Jane Q. Public in your neck of the woods - the same regular types whose kids are joining (or will join) your unit. I'd also be willing to bet you a lemonade that Corpus Christi won't be featuring CAP Commander issues on it's news at 5:00 and 6:00!
Unless you are courting some big whigs for whatever reasons, none of this impacts you, your unit building, or whatever.
I think you spent 10-15 minutes too long on making line-by-line inferences about that message.
Come to think of it, I'm 4 minutes too long in drafting this reply. :)
Quote from: msmjr2003 on December 21, 2006, 03:57:08 PM
Joe, I think Corpus Christi is far enough away from Florida so as NOT to influence John and Jane Q. Public in your neck of the woods - the same regular types whose kids are joining (or will join) your unit.
Unless you are courting some big whigs for whatever reasons, none of this impacts you, your unit building, or whatever.
I think you spent 10 minutes too long on making line-by-line inferences about that message.
Come to think of it, I'm 4 minutes too long in drafting this reply. :)
All I know is that if I get a call from the CALLER-TIMES because this made the AP Wire it does effect me. I pray that that won't happen.
I am courting no favors from anyone. I just hate "agendism," when people try to push their agenda at the expense of everyone else. In my opinion, nothing has happened (yet) since the investigation is not complete (started?) That would have been the time to break this story. When there were facts, not speculations and allegations.
This was done to grandstand.
QuoteAgendism
1. The blatant speading of an agenda much to the discredit of one's character even to such a degree that the "means" become more important than the spirit of their "ends."
2. To be so polarized in one's set of beliefs that opposing beliefs, no matter how factual, beneficial or even helpful to one's own belief, will be seen as wrong.
3. Myopic granstanding done by one side of two or more diametrically opposed political, social or economic positions.
If the GUY is guilty, SEND HIM TO HELL, but until he is declared so...he is as innocent as any of the rest of us.
Miami Herald got a few factoids wrong... I told the reporter how much I trust the Press to get stuff right...
Anyway, yes there are several - less important facts wrong here, it was me refusing to give the CAPF-11 to a member that started the whole thing, I am a Private Pilot, not a recreational pilot, and other little things like that...
Ray Hayden
Quote from: RayHayden on December 21, 2006, 04:36:27 PM
Miami Herald got a few factoids wrong... I told the reporter how much I trust the Press to get stuff right...
Anyway, yes there are several - less important facts wrong here, it was me refusing to give the CAPF-11 to a member that started the whole thing, I am a Private Pilot, not a recreational pilot, and other little things like that...
Ray Hayden
Mr Hayden,
Why didn't you wait until you had the force of a ruling to break this? Honestly and without malice I ask this?
I was going to leave and never say a thing to anyone about it - so i am just as bad as everyone else involved. Why did I go public? Drop that nade on the floor of the tent as I left? Because someone (name left blank here so the message does not get stripped), but SOMEONE (not Pineda by the way) would indeed still accept my resignation BUT, he required a new additional requirement... I had to PERSONALLY get my ID card to him by Monday at noon BEFORE the Appeal Board would meet up, I could even drop it by his house over the weekend...
See, the way it works with me is that you can kick me when I am down - feel free, I like that kind of pain folks.... but you cant take a wiz on my dead skull too...
I was already leaving CAP - one way or another - the story is actually HUGE, but no one cares... fact is that UNTIL that last "additional requirement" of turing in my ID card by noon on Monday.... I was just going to be a good little boy and disappear - just like everyone else...
I guess the guy who sent me that email is probably kicking himself in the pants now... for sure someone else will be kicking him in the pants.... ya think?
Let the IG climb all over me - feel free - my entire life is an open book and I think THAT is their problem... see, no one - anywhere has anything on me... folks there is nothing on me...
The real fact is that no one - but no one, even me can prove I took the exams (plural) for anyone, BUT what is odd are two key points.... 1) I got not one but TWO Exceptional Qualifications promotions in my CAP career... one from 1Lt to Capt (a complete surprise to me when I got the new ID card in the mail, and another from Capt to Major.... look at the timing of that, look at the fact that I was moved up to Region HQ at the time, look at the dates of the exams (on record I might add) and although all of this STILL PROVES NOTHING - nor could it ever.... 2) IN CAP "the rules of evidence do not apply" by REGULATION!
Hang me out to dry - I already did... I have all the emails through this whole process... if justice is not done - I'll just post all of that on my own website... BUT WHY did I go public???
Because if you OBJECTIVELY look at Col Linker.... who does he report to? Look REAL CLOSE do your OWN investigation... now do NOT take what I say for anything - my word is worthless... THINK FOR YOURSELVES!
Now that it is public info - IG HAS TO WORK IT... I am not talking to any more press about this - NOW that it is public - it WILL be investigated... if not - I set it all up on my own website... just watch.... and for goodness sake - THINK FOR YOURSELF... I wish I would have at the time, but perhaps this was my twisted purpose in CAP... only time will tell fro sure...
Ray Hayden
Quote from: msmjr2003 on December 21, 2006, 04:02:47 PM
Quote from: Major Carrales on December 21, 2006, 03:49:38 PM
At times like this it is important to take it "line by line" and analyze it for better u nderstand and speculation...
Joe, I think Corpus Christi is far enough away from Florida so as NOT to influence John and Jane Q. Public in your neck of the woods - the same regular types whose kids are joining (or will join) your unit. I'd also be willing to bet you a lemonade that Corpus Christi won't be featuring CAP Commander issues on it's news at 5:00 and 6:00!
Unless you are courting some big whigs for whatever reasons, none of this impacts you, your unit building, or whatever.
I think you spent 10-15 minutes too long on making line-by-line inferences about that message.
Come to think of it, I'm 4 minutes too long in drafting this reply. :)
I agree. This doesnt really effectus mainline members at all.. However, In lieu of my comments on the original hread on this subject, when I said that the NOTF was not a serious news source. The Miami Herald is which makes me take this a lot more serious. Not to the point wher eI am worrying about it though, caus elike I said,it deosnt affect me. But I am taking it more serious than I did before.
Ray Hayden, is this your website?
http://vdo1.us/rayvs.html (http://vdo1.us/rayvs.html)
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 21, 2006, 04:56:53 PMThe Miami Herald is which makes me take this a lot more serious.
Despite the fact that the Miami Herald is quoting the same one person and the NOTF as well as the NOTF? Plus they have further inaccurate information? I'd say the article holds little credibility.
Garbage in... garbage out...
If this was brought forward by multiple people, whom were not under a membership action, I would say I would think about it.
But, when we have people that are complaining, that are under membership action, it just screams "disgruntled" which happens all the time. Sometimes without merit, and sometimes without.
Quote from: mlcurtis69 on December 21, 2006, 05:05:36 PM
Ray Hayden, is this your website?
http://vdo1.us/rayvs.html (http://vdo1.us/rayvs.html)
Yes, one page out of the entire site, and I have other sites as well... I am NOT the Music Producer from England also named Ray Hayden, but I thought it was funny that a video guy from the US and a Music guy from England had the same name...
fwiw
Quote from: RayHayden on December 21, 2006, 04:54:23 PM
Because if you OBJECTIVELY look at Col Linker.... who does he report to? Look REAL CLOSE do your OWN investigation... now do NOT take what I say for anything - my word is worthless... THINK FOR YOURSELVES!
Actually, if you OBJECTIVELY look at Colonel Linkler... he doesn't fall directly into the Chain of Command of the National Commander. He works for several people, the National Commander being one.
Pineda can't just fire and hire an IG at will. Linkler will be around regardless of what Pineda wants. In this case, Colonel Linkler is working for the Board of Governors, and not Pineda.
The National IG is complex position, and doesn't have one boss. (For obvious reasons.) And, he/she basically can't be fired either. The National IG is appointed for three years. He'll be there for three years if Pineda likes it or not. Basically, he can leave is if he resigns the position or his membership.
I also believe that Colonel Linkler believes in serving the members of CAP, and not Pineda. That job is too much work to take just to be someone's lap dog. And, you don't make any friends in it.
So, using the "who does he report to" scare tactic doesn't discredit Colonel Linkler in my mind. The National IG can be tasked by the National CC. But, he doesn't report directly to him in the Chain of Command.
I do trust that the National IG will do a thorough and fair investigation. And, if all we have is the he/said she/said of two people, with no physical evidence, I expect this will be dropped.
Sources of my information: Constitution and Bylaws, CAPR 20-1, CAPR 123-1 and the Senior IG course (of which I am a graduate.)
Lets face it, when you're at the top, you'll always get lots of people complaining about you for something. Some will tell the truth, some will make things up. It takes a third party that is impartial to determine what the real situation is. I have faith due to the way things are set up that we will find out the truth. Since IG investigations take a long time, we should know the scoop in six months to a year if this meets the criteria for an IG investigation. If not, we'll know it was dismissed in a few months. (If any of that information is ever released. Which, normally it would not be, but I would assume that due to the prolific nature of posts by the complaintant, we'll be informed of the results.)
Quote from: RayHayden on December 21, 2006, 05:20:03 PM
{all of RayHayden's statements}
Well, sir. I can give you one piece of advice and that's pretty much it because I don't know the nitty gritty details of the situation. But generally I can tell you that the more subtle you can be in raising a complaint, the better. Going out with guns blazing just to get back at somebody because you didn't want to put down you SSN, and turning up your bitterness control to "UBER-HIGH" is not the best method.
I can only say that your credibility in this situation and especially on this forum might be better had you not posted a long, bitter rant a few days ago, and if you hadn't made such ambiguous statements as
Quote"Why the hell did Hayden drop off the information grenade and walk out of the tent?'' Hayden asked, referring to himself in the third person. ``That's the question everyone wants to know.''
Well, you're the only one who can tell us.
Not to mention the fact that nobody likes it when someone is out to get somebody out of revenge......and you
have admitted to taking tests for Pineda. Whether it's true or not, either way it would be a major breach in the honor code and one of the core values of CAP: Integrity. You took the tests for him....against integrity. You lie about taking the tests for him....against integrity.
Sorry, bud, but you seem to be digging a hole for yourself.
Quote from: RayHayden on December 21, 2006, 05:20:03 PM
Yes, one page out of the entire site, and I have other sites as well
k, just looking since you said...
Quote
- I set it all up on my own website... just watch....
Like anyone else here, we're just looking for information, since your offering.
Mr Hayden who proctored your exam for ACSC?
Not to be a wet blanket here, but since there has been an acknowledgment of an official investigation, we need to abide by CAPR 123-2 Section 7.j. :
Quotej. Commanders and all personnel involved or having knowledge of an investigation are cautioned not to discuss the complaint, investigation, or findings with persons not involved in the investigation or in the direct chain of command of the complainant or respondent. Unauthorized disclosure may result in a claim of defamation against the individual making such unauthorized disclosure and against CAP in a court of law.
edit spelling error
Quote from: Al Sayre on December 21, 2006, 06:57:40 PM
Not to be a wet blanket here, but since the has been an acknowledgment of an official investigation, we need to abide by CAPR 123-2 Section 7.j. :
Quotej. Commanders and all personnel involved or having knowledge of an investigation are cautioned not to discuss the complaint, investigation, or findings with persons not involved in the investigation or in the direct chain of command of the complainant or respondent. Unauthorized disclosure may result in a claim of defamation against the individual making such unauthorized disclosure and against CAP in a court of law.
Ooops, so much fo that one...eh?
CAPR 123-2 Section 7.j. :
Quote.... in a court of law.
Maybe that's not such a bad idea. I hate the idea of paying lawyers, but if a court can impartially reveal the truth it would be worth it.
The hot water is getting hotter...
Maj Gen Pineda now being investigated by the Florida Department of Law Enforcement, according to the Miami Herald:
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/local/states/florida/counties/broward_county/16291787.htm
All the more reason not to speculate wildly about it on the Internet.
hint, hint...
Either way this goes, it is sure to hurt the organization. This may very well set back what Pineda has worked on since he became NC. Too bad rumors of inapropriate actions can cause same if not more damage than the actual act of misconduct.
Sad days for all of us. :-[
Quote from: mikeylikey on December 21, 2006, 08:20:19 PM
Either way this goes, it is sure to hurt the organization. This may very well set back what Pineda has worked on since he became NC. Too bad rumors of inapropriate actions can cause same if not more damage than the actual act of misconduct.
Sad days for all of us. :-[
Agreed. Sometimes unfounded rumors can be the most devastating of all. People will always wonder.
Of course this is the second article about this that ERIKA BOLSTAD
ebolstad@MiamiHerald.com, has written about this and still has Maxwell AFB in Texas.
Nice investigative skills for a reporter eh? ::)
Quote from: Al Sayre on December 21, 2006, 06:57:40 PM
Not to be a wet blanket here, but since there has been an acknowledgment of an official investigation, we need to abide by CAPR 123-2 Section 7.j. :
Quotej. Commanders and all personnel involved or having knowledge of an investigation are cautioned not to discuss the complaint, investigation, or findings with persons not involved in the investigation or in the direct chain of command of the complainant or respondent. Unauthorized disclosure may result in a claim of defamation against the individual making such unauthorized disclosure and against CAP in a court of law.
edit spelling error
Hence my subtle (perhaps too subtle) post on page 1 of this thread....
;)
I worked with Colonel Pineda prior to his being elected Vice Commander of CAP. While forced to follow the CAP politics, Colonel (Now MajGen) Pineda struck me as an honorable officer wanting to work within the system. Having someone else take his ACSC exams does not seem to me to be something that he would do. This seems to be a case of sour grapes and without factual basis.
I've met the General once and he does indeed seem like a great person, however that being said no matter the outcome this accusation (no matter how truthful they are) is going to severely damage CAP as it went out on the wire already.
It is standard policy that resignations are not official until the card is formally handed in by the member. If Mr Hayden was facing an appeal to be permenantly removed for cause from CAP, then asking for him to personally deliver the card before the scheduled time was doing him a favor. The fact that the board did not actually meet when Mr Hayden had agreed to resign doesn't change the deadline.
If his removal from CAP was or was not political, & if it was or was not justified, I can't say. That's a matter for the IG. If Maj Gen Pineda is or is not guilty of these charges, I also cannot say & taht's also a matter for the IG (and external investigators).
The fact is that Mr Hayden could have chosen to deal with this correctly by informing the appropriate investigators directly & working within the system. If that had failed, he would have had civil recourse. Speaking to the media on this matter destroys the possibility of his claim being supported, and seriously harms all of the good people in CAP regardless of how he may feel about these particular individuals.
If I were Gen Pineda in this situation, I'd tell the CAP/IG to begin an investigation, have CAP-USAF coordinate w/ AU to ensure that's an open process meeting their info demands, coorpoerate with any federal/AF investigation, & follow my employer's policy by informing them that I was under investigation so that they could ensure they were clean as well.
Mr Hayden, I don't know how you got in this situation, but grow up & quit acting a fool. You're supposed to provide a Fm 11 to unit commanders to evidence what members attended. The Fm merely contains Name & CAPID, not SSN, which is much better than it used to be. I don't know why you'd refuse to provide that or why you couldn't cover a portion of the information in copy. I imagine it was requested in teh first place because the info had yet to post online & members needed their credit. Maybe you forgot or lost the info & your pride got the better of you - like it seems to be doing now. You've made some mistakes & it's time to pay for them. If your allegations are made up, then stand up & fix it or there's a good chance you'll be faced with criminal & civil charges. If your allegations are true, then stand by the core values & fight the good fight, BUT do that at teh appropriate level. If you feel the CAP/IG hasa conflict of interest, and a good case can be made for that, then talk to the AU/IG whose job this really is. Don't however think you can try this in the court of public opinion & get justice. That's not how it works. The media loves to break the bad news story & cares less what happens later. You won't get any satisfaction, and you'll have greatly harmed CAP & our many outstanding members in the process. You need to from here on out say that you are unable to comment on matters under investigation & refer them to the appropriate IG.
The rest of us need to let this die, I'd prefer if it were all taken down with the exception of the NHQ/PA statement to units & media (very on the ball by the way).
Quote from: Al Sayre on December 21, 2006, 06:57:40 PM
Not to be a wet blanket here, but since there has been an acknowledgment of an official investigation, we need to abide by CAPR 123-2 Section 7.j. :
Quotej. Commanders and all personnel involved or having knowledge of an investigation are cautioned not to discuss the complaint, investigation, or findings with persons not involved in the investigation or in the direct chain of command of the complainant or respondent. Unauthorized disclosure may result in a claim of defamation against the individual making such unauthorized disclosure and against CAP in a court of law.
edit spelling error
While this is good advice, this sounds more like corporate CYA than anything. CAP, Inc. is there for one reason only: To protect the officers of CAP, Inc. above all else including the membership. This is corporate law 101.
I wouldn't take anything that CAP said on defamation as legal advice as this was the same line they gave us for years with the Cadet Protection Program: See abuse, tell the Wing CC and keep it quiet. Let NHQ, Inc. do all the investigating, notifying cops, etc.
If this story has any legs, FDLE will find it before the CAP IG will.
Johnny Y.
Has anyone put together the alleged 1-2-3 on what exactly the alleged allegations are allegedly supposed to be.
From what I can tell, Hayden would supply a From 1 to someone, which caused a dust-up locally resulting in his being forced to resign or be 2B'ed.
When he went to CAPFLT001 for support, he was told "can't help you", at which time Hayden whips out this alleged nonsense about alledgedly committing fraud by alledgedly taking a test for someone else.
What was the Form 11 for, and what the heck was the big deal?
SSN's don't go on the F11, and CAPID's are meaningless in the real world and easily accessible.
What started this?
Quote from: Eclipse on December 21, 2006, 10:28:15 PM
Has anyone put together the alleged 1-2-3 on what exactly the alleged allegations are allegedly supposed to be.
From what I can tell, Hayden would supply a From 1 to someone, which caused a dust-up locally resulting in his being forced to resign or be 2B'ed.
When he went to CAPFLT001 for support, he was told "can't help you", at which time Hayden whips out this alleged nonsense about alledgedly committing fraud by alledgedly taking a test for someone else.
What was the Form 11 for, and what the heck was the big deal?
SSN's don't go on the F11, and CAPID's are meaningless in the real world and easily accessible.
What started this?
I just said that.
Quote from: DNall on December 21, 2006, 09:53:56 PM
Mr Hayden, I don't know how you got in this situation, but grow up & quit acting a fool. You're supposed to provide a Fm 11 to unit commanders to evidence what members attended. The Fm merely contains Name & CAPID, not SSN, which is much better than it used to be. I don't know why you'd refuse to provide that or why you couldn't cover a portion of the information in copy. I imagine it was requested in teh first place because the info had yet to post online & members needed their credit. Maybe you forgot or lost the info & your pride got the better of you - like it seems to be doing now.
I hate to speculate, but all sounds stupid to me - stupid followed by immature pride & ends up hurting everyone including the bystanders.
Again, take it to the correct authorities & deal with it the right way. This discussion & any involvement with the media is just bad for CAP & harms any ultimate case.
THis whole thing is sad sad sad...
In a time when we are bleeding memberhip, this kind of thing comes along.
All I can say is.. it'll be interesting to see how this plays out in the media... how it effects the PR of CAP, how it effects the relationship with the AF, and also what it will do in regards to recruiting and retention.
So how many IG investigations is Pineda under now? This one and I heard there is another one that was brought up at the BOG meeting.
The same Ray Hayden that posted that long rambling piece on some email list a few months ago where he begged (in caps at times if I remember) every member of FL wing to flood the commanders with email after he had an altercation with another officer?
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOK!
I can see where I just want to snap to attention and salute him for telling it like it is.
Quote from: Al Sayre on December 21, 2006, 06:57:40 PM
Not to be a wet blanket here, but since there has been an acknowledgment of an official investigation, we need to abide by CAPR 123-2 Section 7.j. :
Quotej. Commanders and all personnel involved or having knowledge of an investigation are cautioned not to discuss the complaint, investigation, or findings with persons not involved in the investigation or in the direct chain of command of the complainant or respondent. Unauthorized disclosure may result in a claim of defamation against the individual making such unauthorized disclosure and against CAP in a court of law.
Thanks Al...
I want everyone to look at this very closely. Mr Hayden you too. I don't know if you saw my post in the last thread before it was deleted....but the best thing you can do right now is to remain silent. Your continued attacks only make your case look worse, makes the investigation harder and does not serve the cause of justice or truth.
Quote from: Johnny Yuma on December 21, 2006, 10:06:53 PM
Quote from: Al Sayre on December 21, 2006, 06:57:40 PM
Not to be a wet blanket here, but since there has been an acknowledgment of an official investigation, we need to abide by CAPR 123-2 Section 7.j. :
Quotej. Commanders and all personnel involved or having knowledge of an investigation are cautioned not to discuss the complaint, investigation, or findings with persons not involved in the investigation or in the direct chain of command of the complainant or respondent. Unauthorized disclosure may result in a claim of defamation against the individual making such unauthorized disclosure and against CAP in a court of law.
edit spelling error
While this is good advice, this sounds more like corporate CYA than anything. CAP, Inc. is there for one reason only: To protect the officers of CAP, Inc. above all else including the membership. This is corporate law 101.
I wouldn't take anything that CAP said on defamation as legal advice as this was the same line they gave us for years with the Cadet Protection Program: See abuse, tell the Wing CC and keep it quiet. Let NHQ, Inc. do all the investigating, notifying cops, etc.
If this story has any legs, FDLE will find it before the CAP IG will.
NO this sort of language is standard operating procedure in any military investigation and most civil and criminal investigations. The idea is to help insure the quality of the investigation. That one or more witnesses are not influenced by sharing their information. It has very little to do with CYA...other than you don't want to make a comment that may be used later in a law suit....again...standard operating procedure for any large corporation involved in a legal issue.
As far as CPP goes...there is nothing wrong with CYA...protect your cadets, notify your superiors and let them take the appropriate action. That way....if you are mistaken, all can be forgiven and HQ gets to deal with any law suits and not your squadron. And despite what you may think...even the most guilty child molester out there still has rights and we still must follow due process. It is this operating from gut instinct that gets us in trouble more than following the rules.
Quote from: CAPlikeCrack on December 21, 2006, 07:52:41 PM
The hot water is getting hotter...
Maj Gen Pineda now being investigated by the Florida Department of Law Enforcement, according to the Miami Herald:
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/local/states/florida/counties/broward_county/16291787.htm
Why would the FDLE be involved? Its not a crime to cheat. Its just unethical which in this country is also not a crime.
FDLE is involved because General Pineda is a special agent with the agency.
Quote from: mikeylikey on December 21, 2006, 08:20:19 PM
Either way this goes, it is sure to hurt the organization. This may very well set back what Pineda has worked on since he became NC. Too bad rumors of inapropriate actions can cause same if not more damage than the actual act of misconduct.
Sad days for all of us. :-[
You can thank the ineternet for that.
Quote from: MattPHS2002 on December 22, 2006, 05:56:52 AM
FDLE is involved because General Pineda is a special agent with the agency.
I know he is a specialagent, but still why would they be invesitgating. I f I worked for UPS and did something wrong in CAP, is UPS going to investigate me? No.. I dont work for UPS by the way. I am a cop too.
From what I've read to see if he has potentially violated any of their internal policies.
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 22, 2006, 05:59:22 AM
Quote from: MattPHS2002 on December 22, 2006, 05:56:52 AM
FDLE is involved because General Pineda is a special agent with the agency.
I know he is a specialagent, but still why would they be invesitgating. I f I worked for UPS and did something wrong in CAP, is UPS going to investigate me? No.. I dont work for UPS by the way. I am a cop too.
If you were in a position of trust with UPS and they got wind of a possible instance of lack of integrity...they could certainly ask you about it, investigate it and fire you for it.
Quote from: lordmonar on December 22, 2006, 06:03:53 AM
If you were in a position of trust with UPS and they got wind of a possible instance of lack of integrity...they could certainly ask you about it, investigate it and fire you for it.
Yes, this would very much be an intergrity issue. Contrary to what we are shown in the slandering police on television (with the notable exception of Sgt Joe Friday, T.J. Hooker and a few others), law enforcement has high standards. If one commits unethical actions in one "circle" they have precedent to do it in another.
We cannot "compartmentalize" our existance. Cadets mess up with that on the internet all the time. Many, as is documented at CABBLOG, feel what they say online cannot hurt them elsewhere. BALDERDASH!!!
When I began my vocation (I began my winter vavation today by the way) as a teacher I signed a contract that had a "moral terpitude"(sp) clause. This means if I screw up, even outside of the county or school district, I can be fired with little automatic recourse.
I assume this Law Enforcement organization has a similar element in its policies, but I can only speculate.
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 22, 2006, 05:59:22 AM
Quote from: MattPHS2002 on December 22, 2006, 05:56:52 AM
FDLE is involved because General Pineda is a special agent with the agency.
I know he is a specialagent, but still why would they be invesitgating. I f I worked for UPS and did something wrong in CAP, is UPS going to investigate me? No.. I dont work for UPS by the way. I am a cop too.
There is point that if someone claimed to have completed an advanced management-type course and it gained or furthered their employment, and it turns out they cheated to complete the course, then the person would have falsified their application/records and that is a firing offense for most companies and almost every LE agency I know.
When something like this breaks, the company or agency has an obligation to investigate, even if just to clear the employee.
I believe it specifically said they were investigating to see if there were violations of internal agency policy & proceedure (presumably ethics rules), as well as assuring no crime was committed. It's perfectly normal for them to do a review to ensure their hands are clean & his credibility is intact for their own purposes. However, the accusation involves falsificiation of official federal documents, either directly or causing another to do so, that is a crime. One that lands right in the territory of perjury, which is generally regarded poorly on the record of a law enforcement officer.
Again though, we don't really know anything & this is best left to the formal investigation.
Of course if anythoing does happen to Pineda. CAP will have another milestone. Its frist female National Commander though by default.
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 22, 2006, 06:54:07 AM
Of course if anythoing does happen to Pineda. CAP will have another milestone. Its frist female National Commander though by default.
I was thinking about that earlier today while I was exercising...I don't have a problem with that.
CAP always had opportunities for women even back during WWII.
Law enforcement agencies routinely have the right to conduct investigations of their personnel even for off-duty conduct. When you become a cop you give up certain rights in a way. Any off-duty conduct that may reflect poorly on the agency is often grounds for discipline. It'a not like the private sector. If you made cars for GM, or sold refrigerators, or were paparattzi (sp) your employer would not be able to discipline you in the same manner. But law enforcement can control your off-duty life and the courts have upheld that right.
Quote from: Smokey on December 22, 2006, 07:51:23 AM
Law enforcement agencies routinely have the right to conduct investigations of their personnel even for off-duty conduct. When you become a cop you give up certain rights in a way. Any off-duty conduct that may reflect poorly on the agency is often grounds for discipline. It'a not like the private sector. If you made cars for GM, or sold refrigerators, or were paparattzi (sp) your employer would not be able to discipline you in the same manner. But law enforcement can control your off-duty life and the courts have upheld that right.
Yes they can....they just don't care. If you are a refrigerator salesman, they may not care that you have 20 speeding tickets and a couple of DUI's...but they have the right to make the decision of keeping you or not based on your "off duty" conduct.
Anyone in a "position of trust" can be fired if they show they cannot be trusted.
Do many organizations go out of their way to investigate their employees? Not really...but you would be surprised how many. Just remember that any employer can fire you for not trusting you. The local Mc Donald's Manager can fire you if he finds out you have been charged and/or convicted of theft for instance. He could fire you for any violations of the law by saying it shows a lack of self discipline and not what is wanted in a Mc Donald's employee.
Let this be a warning to anyone out there, who thinks that there is some invisible barrier between their "work life" and their "private life". It does not exist.
Quote from: RiverAux on December 21, 2006, 03:15:07 PM
Its been a while since I looked at this, but is there a "Recreational Pilot" license or am I thinking of something else?
I can think of only one way a pilot that was qualified to fly a CAP plane would end up taking only 2 flights in 7 years --- they never really wanted to fly in the first place. Someone who has been a pilot for at least 7 years but who only has about 200 hours of flying obviously hasn't devoted a lot of effort to it. Heck, just 3 hours a month over that period would put you over 250 hours and I would expect most competent pilots to want at least that much proficiency flying.
There IS a "Recreational Pilot" license, but it isn't enough to fly CAP planes. A "Recreational Pilot" can only fly in day VFR conditions, no more than 50 miles from his base, no more than 1 pax, no more than (I think) 180 hp engines, fixed gear only, fixed pitch prop only, and no flight into Class B airspace. There might be some more restrictions, and I might have gotten some wrong, but that's the basics. You cannot take a form 5 checkride with the RP license, and you cannot wear the wings, but you probably could wear the solo badge.
Quote from: arajca on December 22, 2006, 06:29:31 AM
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 22, 2006, 05:59:22 AM
Quote from: MattPHS2002 on December 22, 2006, 05:56:52 AM
FDLE is involved because General Pineda is a special agent with the agency.
I know he is a specialagent, but still why would they be invesitgating. I f I worked for UPS and did something wrong in CAP, is UPS going to investigate me? No.. I dont work for UPS by the way. I am a cop too.
There is point that if someone claimed to have completed an advanced management-type course and it gained or furthered their employment, and it turns out they cheated to complete the course, then the person would have falsified their application/records and that is a firing offense for most companies and almost every LE agency I know.
When something like this breaks, the company or agency has an obligation to investigate, even if just to clear the employee.
Ok, but a CAP course will not advance his standing with FDLE. He's already a senor special agent. I understand integrity, but lack of integrity is not against the law. Its sounds nice to say things like we should have integrity but in the real world 90% of people do not have it.
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 22, 2006, 05:54:55 AM
Quote from: CAPlikeCrack on December 21, 2006, 07:52:41 PM
The hot water is getting hotter...
Maj Gen Pineda now being investigated by the Florida Department of Law Enforcement, according to the Miami Herald:
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/local/states/florida/counties/broward_county/16291787.htm
Why would the FDLE be involved? Its not a crime to cheat. Its just unethical which in this country is also not a crime.
Actually, I think there IS a crime here. One has to sign a certification that the work submitted is one's own, and the TCO has to sign a statement to certify that the test was properly administered. Signing statements known to be false to a government agency is an offense. If you don't believe me, ask Martha Stewart.
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on December 22, 2006, 02:57:58 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on December 21, 2006, 03:15:07 PM
Its been a while since I looked at this, but is there a "Recreational Pilot" license or am I thinking of something else?
I can think of only one way a pilot that was qualified to fly a CAP plane would end up taking only 2 flights in 7 years --- they never really wanted to fly in the first place. Someone who has been a pilot for at least 7 years but who only has about 200 hours of flying obviously hasn't devoted a lot of effort to it. Heck, just 3 hours a month over that period would put you over 250 hours and I would expect most competent pilots to want at least that much proficiency flying.
It was a typo for goodness sake. Not worth discussing. The news reporter doesnt understand proitand private pilot versus recreational pilot. If I tell a non pilot that I fly for fun, they will naturally assume recreational. They dont read FAA regs
There IS a "Recreational Pilot" license, but it isn't enough to fly CAP planes. A "Recreational Pilot" can only fly in day VFR conditions, no more than 50 miles from his base, no more than 1 pax, no more than (I think) 180 hp engines, fixed gear only, fixed pitch prop only, and no flight into Class B airspace. There might be some more restrictions, and I might have gotten some wrong, but that's the basics. You cannot take a form 5 checkride with the RP license, and you cannot wear the wings, but you probably could wear the solo badge.
Quote from: spy on December 21, 2006, 11:43:56 PM
So how many IG investigations is Pineda under now? This one and I heard there is another one that was brought up at the BOG meeting.
This is a price paid for strong senior leadershp. Someone won't be happy, and all it takes to start an IG investigation is a pen, stationery and postage.
Maj. Gen. Pineda has spoken to the allegation and is doing the exacly correct thing by calling for a full investigation. CAP and FDLE are doing the right thing by properly and thoroughly investigating the allegation (even though the allegation seems to have a lot of inconsistencies).
The IG complaint system is very fair and well organized. I assume that the FDLE process is as well. We should simply let the process(es) work.
Of course if the allegation is demonstrated to be false, the accuser and publisher may have substantial personal liability if a defamation suit were later filed against them.
Unless there is a change in status IAW our Constitution & Bylaws, Maj. Gen. Pineda remains our National Commander and it remains our duty to continue to follow his leadership. Anyone who can't do that might consider donating their time and services to one of the many other volunteer service organizations available.
I'll be the first to admit that Tony Pineda doesn't rank high on my list of favorite commanding officers, he's done stuff that I disagree with but done it within the framework of the CAP Bylaws and Regulations.
I want to throw this back onto Skip Munger and his "News of the Force" online tabloid and tidbit site. Munger makes no bones about his dislike and displeasure of Tony Pineda, a fued that has been raging for many years going back to when Pineda was Florida Wing King. What I find interesting is that he's been able to bring in someone from the Miami Herald (could have the newspaper wrong) to add some legitimate news reporting to his vendetta.
This can take two routes, one prove to be true then Pineda should resign. The other route is that it is proven groundless and then Pineda should bring every bit of legal force he can to shut Munger down.
I am more concerned about the CAP public image. We went through enough with Wheless and his scandal. We don't need another one.
-CC
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 22, 2006, 03:14:53 PM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on December 22, 2006, 02:57:58 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on December 21, 2006, 03:15:07 PM
Its been a while since I looked at this, but is there a "Recreational Pilot" license or am I thinking of something else?
I can think of only one way a pilot that was qualified to fly a CAP plane would end up taking only 2 flights in 7 years --- they never really wanted to fly in the first place. Someone who has been a pilot for at least 7 years but who only has about 200 hours of flying obviously hasn't devoted a lot of effort to it. Heck, just 3 hours a month over that period would put you over 250 hours and I would expect most competent pilots to want at least that much proficiency flying.
It was a typo for goodness sake. Not worth discussing. The news reporter doesnt understand proitand private pilot versus recreational pilot. If I tell a non pilot that I fly for fun, they will naturally assume recreational. They dont read FAA regs
There IS a "Recreational Pilot" license, but it isn't enough to fly CAP planes. A "Recreational Pilot" can only fly in day VFR conditions, no more than 50 miles from his base, no more than 1 pax, no more than (I think) 180 hp engines, fixed gear only, fixed pitch prop only, and no flight into Class B airspace. There might be some more restrictions, and I might have gotten some wrong, but that's the basics. You cannot take a form 5 checkride with the RP license, and you cannot wear the wings, but you probably could wear the solo badge.
I know, Flyguy. I worked Public Affairs in the Army and in CAP, and there is no mistake too stupid for a civilian journalist to avoid making. I only mentioned it as an instructional point to RiverAux who was questioning the term.
Quote from: Major Carrales on December 22, 2006, 06:57:52 AM
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 22, 2006, 06:54:07 AM
Of course if anythoing does happen to Pineda. CAP will have another milestone. Its frist female National Commander though by default.
I was thinking about that earlier today while I was exercising...I don't have a problem with that.
CAP always had opportunities for women even back during WWII.
Nobody mentioned that there would be a problem. Why would you even suggest that?
Air Force Times story: http://www.airforcetimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-2440696.php
Quote from: MIKE on December 22, 2006, 08:53:52 PM
Air Force Times story: http://www.airforcetimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-2440696.php
Wow. ::)
[/quote]
Ok, but a CAP course will not advance his standing with FDLE. He's already a senor special agent.
[/quote]
Keep in mind that ACSC (as well as SOS and AWC) is an Air Force course which CAP officers have the privilege of taking...this fact would probably impress many emloyers.
I have faith in the General's integrity. We should support our commander and let the I.G conduct the investigation and we as officers should not generate any rumors.
Quote from: CAPLAW on December 22, 2006, 09:42:31 PM
I have faith in the General's integrity. We should support our commander and let the I.G conduct the investigation and we as officers should not generate any rumors.
Do you by chance work for NHQ? Just thought I would ask. WE as officers should be in pursuit of the truth. Who has generated rumors. For all we know, the allegations are true. We will only know once the investigation is over.
Mikey,
I agree with you but if the allegations are exactly as Mr. Hayden asserts we will never know what exactly happened.
Quote from: mikeylikey on December 22, 2006, 09:57:54 PM
Who has generated rumors. For all we know, the allegations are true. We will only know once the investigation is over.
True. For all we know, the allegations
could be true. But in America, people are presumed innocent until proven guilty, not presumed guilty until proven innocent. So yes, endeavor for the truth. But we
should support our National Commander. There is nothing wrong with that. After all, he is the commander over us.
The Air Force Times article stated:
Quote
"Raymond Hayden, until recently a CAP officer, said Friday that he completed the 18-month correspondence course for which Maj. Gen. Antonio Pineda, CAP's national commander, received credit."
This course is an online course through the AFIADL system yes? If so, then my first thought would be to check access logs for IP address information.
Like others, I hate to speculate, but I'm really having problems with one person crying 'lack of integrity', this late in the game to boot, when it's their own lack of integrity that, allegedly, created this incident. As much as I want this to be the hogwash we all believe it to be, I certainly hope for Mr. Hayden's sake that he speaks the truth or forever be looked at shamefully by those that know him.
Great. Now the AF Times is running the story. How is this going to look to every Air Force Officer who's attended this course. "We give a bunch of volunteers the privledge of taking one of our courses and look what happens."
Whether this is true or not we're going to get the black eye for it.
Thanks Tony Pineda, Thanks Mr. Hayden, thanks Munger, and "NOTF". Your feuding is harming the greater good.
If only it were that simple...
It's actually done on paper, ACSC is a series of tests covering a whole bunch of different topics, not sure really, well above my pay grade, and you complete the tests as you go along, they're proctored by a TCO, and sent to AFIADL for grading. They're done on one of those scan-tron sheets they stick in the machine.
They can be done online at a Test Control center at an AFB, but, like someone else mentioned, you might go to do it and get a response of "Civil Air What?" when you attempt to take it. But that's controlled by AF personnel, and would be extremely hard to cheat on, because that would involve identity fraud and fun things like that.
I've tried to stay quiet on this, but here's my pondering. If Pineda had Hayden do these tests, I'm wondering, who was the TCO administering the test? It said Hayden was the "director of education" I'm guessing professional development officer, but not the Test Control Officer. Doesn't that mean that someone else would know about it?
Quote from: SJFedor on December 22, 2006, 10:28:05 PM
It's actually done on paper, ACSC is a series of tests covering a whole bunch of different topics, not sure really, well above my pay grade, and you complete the tests as you go along, they're proctored by a TCO, and sent to AFIADL for grading. They're done on one of those scan-tron sheets they stick in the machine.
Well, paper retains fingerprints and handwriting recognition is useful too. I'm hard pressed to believe those test sheets have been destroyed.
Amazing . . . . sounds like a bunch of 10 year olds at lunch recess. Sorry didn't mean to insult 10 year olds. Don't feel sorry for anyone involved in this mess.
Quote from: Ricochet13 on December 22, 2006, 10:36:54 PM
Amazing . . . . sounds like a bunch of 10 year olds at lunch recess. Sorry didn't mean to insult 10 year olds. Don't feel sorry for anyone involved in this mess.
I don't know if any of us feel sorry for those involved, but a great many of us feel sorry for the damage to CAP's reputation and image that's taking a severe clubbing as a result of this little spat.
Officers, including general officers, screw up in the Air Force all the time, and the Air Force replaces them and moves on. I don't see any long-term effects for CAP out of this incident no matter how it turns out.
Unless Pineda gives himself a third star, then... Back to the purple epaulets!
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on December 22, 2006, 10:49:24 PM
Unless Pineda gives himself a third star, then... Back to the purple epaulets!
I think it'll be lime green epaulets, orange flight suits, and severely modified USAF service dress uniform. Short sleeve blue shirt with blue shorts and red socks up to the knees. With khaki colored shoes.
^ next corporate uniform combo
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 22, 2006, 05:54:55 AM
Quote from: CAPlikeCrack on December 21, 2006, 07:52:41 PM
The hot water is getting hotter...
Maj Gen Pineda now being investigated by the Florida Department of Law Enforcement, according to the Miami Herald:
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/local/states/florida/counties/broward_county/16291787.htm
Why would the FDLE be involved? Its not a crime to cheat. Its just unethical which in this country is also not a crime.
Any time an LEO has a serious accuastion laid upon him like this there will be an investigation. It goes to his credibility in a court of law.
If memory serves, FDLE also certifies and revoke LEO commissions for the entire state and they're hell on any sort of unethical behavior like he's accused of.
IF, I say, IF, he's found to have had Hayden take his exams he'll likely lose his job at FDLE and lose his certification, making him ineligible to work in Law Enforcement at least in Florida. Probably anywhere else as well.
As to the media coverage: Pineda is well known to the Miami area media from various cases he's worked, including some major gang related crime figures as well as the trouble in the state child welfare issues of late. A quick Yahoo! search on "Tony Pineda FDLE" will bring some of them up. AF Times probably got the story off the news wires and being the USAF AUX ran with it.
This is going to go one of 3 ways: If the charges are unfounded completely he'll stay on and nothing's going to touch him the rest of his term.
If the charges are found to be inconclusive he'll probably be " encouraged" to resign as NHQ/CC by the BoG and/or FDLE to prevent further embarrassment to either organization.
If they're found to be true, stick a fork in him because he's done.
Quote from: Pylon on December 22, 2006, 10:39:17 PM
I don't know if any of us feel sorry for those involved, but a great many of us feel sorry for the damage to CAP's reputation and image that's taking a severe clubbing as a result of this little spat.
Exactly.
This supposedly happened three years ago. There won't be much if any physical evidence.
Air Force Times huh? Welcome aboard OSI. No doubt they'll take it now. Stand aside & let them do their job. I think AU/IG was probably already on top of it since fraud/thier test proceedures are at stake.
My greatest doubt on this is that it occured when Pineda was already a Colonel. If that's the case, then there was no advantage from completing ACSC. If he thought it was too hard, then he could have just withdrawn & no one would know or care. That's wnat makes it curious. And that's it for me, I'm outta this one.
QuoteCAP surpresses new ideas and vision
Your views that CAP Leaders surpress new ideas and vision, is not unknown to me. The Boards at CAP are locked into small thinking.
The problem with Air Force Officers, (by the way I am an Air Force Vet) is they know about the Air Force and do not understand CAP or have a vision for CAP.
And the Air Force does not fund us. Its Congress and the Air Force would slice and dice us to nothing, if Congress did not have a bunch of CAP members.
Quote from: Ricochet13 on December 22, 2006, 10:36:54 PM
Amazing . . . . sounds like a bunch of 10 year olds at lunch recess. Sorry didn't mean to insult 10 year olds. Don't feel sorry for anyone involved in this mess.
Unfortunately, due to the possible reprecussions of this, we are all "involved in this mess". What gets me is Mr. Hayden's thirst for vengence/justice/the last word without any thought to the organization as a whole. The only thing that matters in his diatribe is the accusation against our National CC. His grief against anyone else is immaterial and is nothing more than the political debauchery we've all come to know and love. :P
So what we have is an Officer who did something he knew was wrong (or should have), felt mistreated by other Officers, got himself between a rock and a hard spot and asked for help, was denied, and so to make himself feel better (or to wage a personal crusade) he writes a letter to News of the Force rather than have a sit-down with CAP legal and/or the I.G. (or whatever the proper chain of command for such an issue is).
The relationship we have with the Air Force is a privilege. What we didn't need is for the Air Force to think we're an organization without integrity and all we've strove for is now at risk. Gee...thank you Mr. Hayden...I'm glad
you feel better.
And that's all I got to say about that.
It doesn't matter how this turns out.
TP guilty or innocent, it is an embarrassment to all of us.
The fact remains that a senior officer is making accusations about cheating, admitting in the aiding of cheating, and admitting conduct which almost amounts to blackmail.
If the accusations are true, we will have a major scandal to embarrass us.
If the accusations are false, we are still left with the embarrassing fact that one of our senior officers (until recently) is a rotten, spiteful liar.
No good can come of any of this.
But, that being said, it is ONLY an embarrassment. This will not shake CAP to its foundations. We will replace the disgraced officer or officers and we will move on.
The Air Force also suffers such embarrassments from time to time. At Patrick AFB we've had officers and senior NCO's involved in a sex scandal, providing a female airman to the chief of the inspection team, and a couple of NCO's who were also court-martialled for cheating on exams.
They have already replaced the people involved, and the incidents are now part of history.
"Bad news goes away." They teach you that truism at Public Affairs School. Let it happen, (since you can't stop it anyway), take the action necessary, and allow the sordid matter to pass into history.
Quote from: Psicorp on December 24, 2006, 07:01:44 AM
Quote from: Ricochet13 on December 22, 2006, 10:36:54 PM
Amazing . . . . sounds like a bunch of 10 year olds at lunch recess. Sorry didn't mean to insult 10 year olds. Don't feel sorry for anyone involved in this mess.
Unfortunately, due to the possible reprecussions of this, we are all "involved in this mess". What gets me is Mr. Hayden's thirst for vengence/justice/the last word without any thought to the organization as a whole. The only thing that matters in his diatribe is the accusation against our National CC.
It's a result of Commanders asking people to "resign", and not allowing due process.
And from what I heard they really torqued off Hayden.
Based on the AF Times story this has now gone international as part of a United Press International story.....
Quote from: RiverAux on December 26, 2006, 07:30:28 PM
Based on the AF Times story this has now gone international as part of a United Press International story.....
:: Hangs head down in shame and slaps forehead :: :(
Link?
The Air Force Times link is on page 4 of this thread
Why won't Skip Munger print my letter to the 'editor' of the News of The Force? You can read it for yourself and decide:
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2006 8:19 AM
To: NewsoftheForce@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Pineda Investigation
Dear "Editor":
I find it almost comical that as much weight is being given to the accusations against the National Commander of Civil Air Patrol. Your publication's 'Exclusive Report' is a new low, even for you.
The accuser (or 'victim', as he appears to be spinning his story), Ray Hayden, is - by his own admission - a liar at best, and a cheating liar at worst. He has either disgraced the rank that he held by agreeing to cheat on a test in exchange for a promotion, or is a complete liar trying to 'even the score' with people that he blames for his own incompentcy and ineptness.
Doesn't anybody besides me think that it's pretty ironic/funny/sad that he was the Professional Development officer for Florida Wing while admitting to breaking all the rules that he was supposed to be enforcing for his own personal gain? Does that sound like a normal thing to do?
Rather than face a formal hearing that could (and probably would) have resulted in his termination from the organization, he chose to run away and quit instead of facing up to his actions and explaining them.
What a moral compass for our youth this man is!
Anyone who is on the Florida Wing Yahoo List saw the freaky emails that this guy was sending out before and after the PDW that he ran in Boca Raton in October where he verbally attacked a very well respected squadron commander from Daytona Beach over one of his 'rules'.
Gee, Ray, did you help -that- commander with his tests also? Guess he has to go also, huh? ::)
What a crock.
I can't believe that anyone takes Ray Hayden seriously - the guy's got some serious issues, and his actions both at the PDW and in this comedy underscores the guy's need to get some professional assistance.
You know, I've taken tests for my business before at the same time as a colleague, and yes, we've either sat for them at the same time or sent them in at the same time since they were going to the same place and there was a better chance that both of them wouldn't get lost. The dates on the Pineda test are not the smoking gun that Ray thinks they are.
Pineda has no doubt made enemies as he rose to his current position. I think that the same can be said about many leaders in office (Hello: George Bush, Bill Clinton, etc?). He's also been in the Florida Department of Law Enforcement for over 35 years according to the Miami Herald article. He's been a cop since the time that Richard Nixon was President = that's a long time, Ray.
If he was as dirty as you claim he is with your acusations, it's more than likely that he wouldn't have made it three and a half decades as a law enforcement officer in a state agency.
And I don't think that unsubstantiated threats from someone seeking self-gratification like Ray is deserves anywhere near the amount of attention that they're getting.
When the investigation clears Pineda, Ray and the rest of the Pineda naysayers can go join the folks on the Daley Plaza grassy knoll and following Lady Di 's car with your own conspiracy theory, as you're certain to call his vindication a whitewash, etc.
(note that today's NOTF already is starting that spin with it's 'anonymous sources in the USAF not giving the CAP IG investigation any credibility for impartiality....they know that Pineda will be cleared and are already starting to plant further seeds of doubt).
Pathetic situation. And when this is all over, Ray, you're only going to be remembered as a very insignificant bump in the road (or maybe a fly hitting the windshield) in the career of a dedicated leader who always has put the organization first in his priorities (unlike yourself).
A Proud Florida CAP Member
Oh I can answer the reasons why "NOTF and Skip Munger" won't publish your letter. He's not a REAL news media. He fashions his Yahoo Group/List Server as some alleged news organization when all he does in fact is post press releases and reports from legitimate news organizations.
There is no 'staff' of writers, editors, and a publisher outside of him sitting in his basement with a cardboard sign on the door that says 'Skip Munger, Publisher and Editor Emeritus, News of the Force'. NOTF is nothing but a blog where he can post and distribute what he wants. He gets a few of his 'friends' and likeminded individuals to write editorials that reflect his viewpoint and proclaims himself as a bonafide news outlet.
Write something really slamming CAP, Tony Pineda, or allege a huge Cadet Abuse scandal and he'll gladly put it up for you. He lives for that kind of stuff.
Quote from: RiverAux on December 26, 2006, 07:30:28 PM
Based on the AF Times story this has now gone international as part of a United Press International story.....
Well, a search of the UPI website (www.upi.com) doesn't turn up any CAP stories in the past 90 days. Maybe you can share with us where you are seeing UPI International Coverage of this sideshow?
Quote from: NoNamesPlease on December 27, 2006, 12:19:12 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on December 26, 2006, 07:30:28 PM
Based on the AF Times story this has now gone international as part of a United Press International story.....
Well, a search of the UPI website (www.upi.com) doesn't turn up any CAP stories in the past 90 days. Maybe you can share with us where you are seeing UPI International Coverage of this sideshow? Or is the UPI spin just more fuel for the fire?
http://news.google.com/ (http://news.google.com/) is your friend...
http://www.upi.com/SecurityTerrorism/view.php?StoryID=20061226-102150-9401r (http://www.upi.com/SecurityTerrorism/view.php?StoryID=20061226-102150-9401r)
Create a News Alert, http://www.google.com/alerts?hl=en&t=1 (http://www.google.com/alerts?hl=en&t=1) with the term "Civil Air Patrol" and you too can be
'In the loop'.
No Names:
That was a great letter.
Maybe not from NOTF's perspective, but great anyway.
Thanks for the UPI link (I'm so darn computer illiterate!) and the comment. I have no vested interest in this mess other than in supporting the CAP and it's missions, all of which are much bigger than any one individual.
Sandmand , I could have not said it any better, as far as Skip Munger goes, I can remeber when I was a cadet in Florida Wing and this guy was always lokking for a conspiracy theory. Can any other member recall the good old days of Major Munger in the Florida Wing.
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on December 27, 2006, 02:31:11 PM
No Names:
That was a great letter.
Maybe not from NOTF's perspective, but great anyway.
I am going to have to weigh in with Kachenmeister. The letter points up an aspect of this incident that has been unreported until now. Skip has a bone to pick with Pineda, as do I. It is very difficult to be objective when you have irrefutable evidence one way or the other, and Skip allowed his knowledge of Pineda to obscure the fact that his source was less than laudable. Major Munger (see I remember) was the Florida Wing Administrator while Pineda was pulling some of his less glorious politics. He attempted to bully Munger into signing a letter of responsibility for the fact that the Taylor Fealey cadet abuse matter went unreported and uninvestigated. Shortly after Skip refused to sign this lying document, he was a "disgruntled former member." Is it any wonder that he carries some bias?
Back to Hayden. When you lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas. Hayden is typical of the type of sycophant with which Pineda surrounds himself. His criteria for appointment is not efficiency or capability, but personal loyalty to Pineda. Pineda has apparantly never had any military leadership training where they teach you that loyalty goes both ways. If he had paid attention in that Staff College that is the subject of this thread, he would have seen the concept liberally treated. Hayden became a liability, and Pineda dumped him. If Nixon had just dumped the "plumbers" we would have a very different idea of his presidency.
I dont know wheather or not NOTF is crdible or not, but I do know that a credible paper like the Miami Herald and AF Times wouldnt even touch the story and risk their reputations if their sources werent legit.
Also about the comment about this Ray Hagen dude . Is CAP really that serious that he would go to these lengths just to get a man fired from a non paying volunteer organization? Its not like he;s gonna loose any money over it. The comment was made that rather thanface a formal hearing that could result in termination of membership. Ok. Ans termintaion of membership means what? He doesnt have to pay expensive Vanguard prices anymore
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 27, 2006, 04:07:15 PM
I dont know wheather or not NOTF is crdible or not, but I do know that a credible paper like the Miami Herald and AF Times wouldnt even touch the story and risk their reputations if their sources werent legit.
Well, the Herald and the AF Times had legit sources for the fact that there is an investigation going on, which is in itself news.
That point is not being disputed - it's the whole idea of whether there's anything to the investigation that is the issue.
Even the most reputable of news media can report the wrong information, be mislead, or manipulated by their own internal forces.
The Air Force Times, Miami Herald and so on are reporting the accusation and the investigation which is now a fact where Mungers reporting is more accusation.
Oh, I agree. I am not defending this Munger guy or Hayden. I dont even know them
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 27, 2006, 05:44:50 PM
Oh, I agree. I am not defending this Munger guy or Hayden. I dont even know them
I don't know Hayden, other than that by his own statements he has admitted to both cheating and lying. You can log me in as defending Munger. He showed me, and asked my opinion of, the absolutely ridiculous written "confession" that Pineda gave him to sign at the 1998 Atlanta BOG meeting right before Bowling exercised his bruised authority by reappointing Pineda Florida Wing Commander. Shortly after he refused to sign it, he was a former member.
If only it were possible to get to those levels and keep free of the petty politics. Mind you, some degree of so-called "politics" is expected in every organization; but this continued "Roman Empire" like in fighting might lead to that ultimate realization...
"For the past 1500 years everyone has sought to be like Rome. These people miss the obvious most important lesson of Rome. It Fell!"
-J.E. Carrales 1997 in a speech to fellow students at Texas A&M Kingsville
I see the whole issue, all of them really, as being mere politics. As Robin Williams said, "Diapers and politicians should be changed often, and for the same reason." I only get my feathers ruffled when political discord gets media attention and makes us all look bad. It affects our relationship with the Air Force, Congress, our local agencies, impacts our ability to perform our missions, negatively impacts our recruiting/retention efforts, and all that affects us financially.
My father hated CAP even when I was a cadet; he thought (and sometimes rightly so) that it's just a bunch of people who want the benefits of being/looking Air Force without any of the responsibility, and questioned our worth...and he was Active Duty Air Force.
NOTF, at least, is somewhat balanced. Mr. Munger does occassionally post the good things we do, which brings it back to that whole taking credit (by proxy) when things are good and standing back and slinging poo when something goes wrong. That may or may not be true, but it sometimes sure seems that way.
I have no idea what it is that Mr. Hayden is really after. My guess is just to have the last word in a long standing dispute. Is that what he wants to teach our Cadets, that it's okay to do the wrong thing when it's for personal gain but the minute fecal matter starts to hit the rotary air impeller shout out, "Oh my that's a pretty skeleton you got in that closet! Look at this everyone!!"? He gets to squeak out with just being a "former member", while our National Commander gets a double investigation. That doesn't seem right, regardless of what did or didn't happen.
Bah...I'm done with this issue. I asked my Magic 8 Ball if we're making more noise about this than will ever be said/done after the investigations and it said, "Most Likely".
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 27, 2006, 04:07:15 PM
I don't know whether or not NOTF is credible or not, but I do know that a credible paper like the Miami Herald and AF Times wouldn't even touch the story and risk their reputations if their sources weren't legit.
Also about the comment about this Ray Hagen dude . Is CAP really that serious that he would go to these lengths just to get a man fired from a non paying volunteer organization? Its not like he;s gonna loose any money over it. The comment was made that rather than face a formal hearing that could result in termination of membership. Ok. Ans termination of membership means what? He doesn't have to pay expensive Vanguard prices anymore
Oh...as for this piece NOTF is right on. Hayden did make an accusation, Hayden did send it to OSI, the IG and to the USAF and they are investigating.
Where NOTF is wrong...is where they are painting Hayden as some victim of the MGen Pinda's Mafia.
Not wanting to speculate about what is and is not true in this fiasco...but the best course of action for everyone involved is to stop talking about it. This almost likely to come down to he said, she said and the guy with the most credibility will win.
Anyone keeping score?
Pineda All Stars 0, NOTF 0,
Looks like a tied game, might be settled in the fourth quarter.
Quote from: CAP Safety Dude on December 27, 2006, 08:21:35 PM
Pineda All Stars 0, NOTF 0,
Looks like a tied game, might be settled in the fourth quarter.
I was thinking more on the level of Pineda Vs Hayden.
And as a member of the Pineda All Stars (as you are too) I think we have scored a lot more than 0.
What has been touched really lightly here is this...
No matter what... Hayden is a liar.. by his own words... and deeds..
If his accusation is true, then he lied by taking the test for someone else and covering it up. This is a man with a serious moral flaw.. PERIOD!
If he is lying and his accusation is false, then he is just the same.. a liar.... This man has a serious moral flaw.
The big question is which lie is true?
THink about that!
Quote from: 2nd LT Fairchild on December 27, 2006, 09:28:46 PM
What has been touched really lightly here is this...
No matter what... Hayden is a liar.. by his own words... and deeds..
If his accusation is true, then he lied by taking the test for someone else and covering it up. This is a man with a serious moral flaw.. PERIOD!
If he is lying and his accusation is false, then he is just the same.. a liar.... This man has a serious moral flaw.
The big question is which lie is true?
THink about that!
Hence the best thing we can do is sit back and wait for the investigation to be completed. Hayden is alread gone....gone for good. What we have to do is wait to see if we get a new commander or not.
Quote from: lordmonar on December 27, 2006, 08:25:00 PM
[... And as a member of the Pineda All Stars (as you are too) I think we have scored a lot more than 0.
Okay- I'll bite. How do you become a Pineda All-Star?
Quote from: lordmonar on December 27, 2006, 08:25:00 PM
Quote from: CAP Safety Dude on December 27, 2006, 08:21:35 PM
Pineda All Stars 0, NOTF 0,
Looks like a tied game, might be settled in the fourth quarter.
I was thinking more on the level of Pineda Vs Hayden.
And as a member of the Pineda All Stars (as you are too) I think we have scored a lot more than 0.
It is early in the first quarter, we've recovered the ball and Colonel Linker is running with it.
I will be the first to admit that Maj Gen Pineda has done some things I don't really agree with, but on this one I am going to line up behind the man for the better of CAP.
My gut instinct is that the charge is unfounded. He may have done some other things that are questionable or disagreeable but I am going to give him the benefit of the doubt here and wait and see how things play out.
Unfortunately, the damage to the CAP reputation has been done and caused by Hayden and NOTF. (In my opinion).
Quote from: BlackKnight on December 27, 2006, 10:46:18 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on December 27, 2006, 08:25:00 PM
[... And as a member of the Pineda All Stars (as you are too) I think we have scored a lot more than 0.
Okay- I'll bite. How do you become a Pineda All-Star?
You got a CAPID? You are a member of the All Stars! He is our commander like it or not, until he is removed from office or resigns. Until then we should support him and his policies.
Quote from: lordmonar on December 27, 2006, 11:19:12 PM
Quote from: BlackKnight on December 27, 2006, 10:46:18 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on December 27, 2006, 08:25:00 PM
[... And as a member of the Pineda All Stars (as you are too) I think we have scored a lot more than 0.
Okay- I'll bite. How do you become a Pineda All-Star?
You got a CAPID? You are a member of the All Stars! He is our commander like it or not, until he is removed from office or resigns. Until then we should support him and his policies.
The only problem with that line of thought is that it assumes the method of selecting /appointing CAP leadership is sound. Unfortunately, this isn't like the AF where our leaders have proven themselves through successively higher commands and through serious professional military education. I am reserving judgement on the General pending the results of the investigations, and I respect the office of the National Commander, no matter who occupies it. However, that doesn't mean that I'll blindly back anyone to the bitter end no matter what.
Quote from: ELThunter on December 28, 2006, 03:54:34 AMThe only problem with that line of thought is that it assumes the method of selecting /appointing CAP leadership is sound. Unfortunately, this isn't like the AF where our leaders have proven themselves through successively higher commands and through serious professional military education. I am reserving judgment on the General pending the results of the investigations, and I respect the office of the National Commander, no matter who occupies it. However, that doesn't mean that I'll blindly back anyone to the bitter end no matter what.
I'm shocked Major! I'm not asking anyone to blindly back anyone. But just because he may or may not be a cheat is not a reason not to back his policies until you are given new marching orders.
I'm sorry sir that is just not the way it works!
Do you want one of your cadets not backing your choice of cadet commander because he does not like the way he was chosen?
No sir...this is basic follower ship. I'm not saying we got to jump off cliffs just because the general said so. But I am going to support him in every way I can (even if I disagree with his policies).
And as a Major you should know this lesson already!
We support our leaders in public, and challenge in private. I am a member of the CAP team and Gen Pineda is our leader! If I don't like the how or where he is taking us I will direct those concerns up the right channels.
Quote from: lordmonar on December 28, 2006, 04:02:58 AM
Quote from: ELThunter on December 28, 2006, 03:54:34 AMThe only problem with that line of thought is that it assumes the method of selecting /appointing CAP leadership is sound. Unfortunately, this isn't like the AF where our leaders have proven themselves through successively higher commands and through serious professional military education. I am reserving judgment on the General pending the results of the investigations, and I respect the office of the National Commander, no matter who occupies it. However, that doesn't mean that I'll blindly back anyone to the bitter end no matter what.
I'm shocked Major! I'm not asking anyone to blindly back anyone. But just because he may or may not be a cheat is not a reason not to back his policies until you are given new marching orders.
I'm sorry sir that is just not the way it works!
Do you want one of your cadets not backing your choice of cadet commander because he does not like the way he was chosen?
No sir...this is basic follower ship. I'm not saying we got to jump off cliffs just because the general said so. But I am going to support him in every way I can (even if I disagree with his policies).
And as a Major you should know this lesson already!
We support our leaders in public, and challenge in private. I am a member of the CAP team and Gen Pineda is our leader! If I don't like the how or where he is taking us I will direct those concerns up the right channels.
Nowhere in my post did I say I wouldn't follow his direction and policies as long as he is national commander.
As I said, I'll respect the position no matter who is in it. I just may not be in the cheerleading section defending him against his accusers. If this was the first allegation to come along, it might be different, but it's just another in a long line in his relatively short time as commander. I am a constant cheerleader, defender and supporter of the organization, and I will continue to be. However, in this instance I'll reserve judgement on the General until the investigation is complete.
I have seen several posts here slamming Mr. Hayden. I'll not defend him either, as he obviously has some moral issues of his own. By his own admission, he lied and cheated, so I don't feel sorry or defend him in any way. However, IF his allegations are true, his background makes them no less worthly of investigation.
Let me reiterate again. I will follow Maj. General Pineda and follow his policies as long as he is my National Commander. I never suggested otherwise. Please do not lecture me.
Quote from: lordmonar on December 27, 2006, 11:19:12 PM
Quote from: BlackKnight on December 27, 2006, 10:46:18 PM
[Okay- I'll bite. How do you become a Pineda All-Star?
You got a CAPID? You are a member of the All Stars! He is our commander like it or not, until he is removed from office or resigns. Until then we should support him and his policies.
Okay, I get it! ;D In that case I'll call myself a
CAP All-Star.
I follow all legal orders and policies that are in accordance with properly issued regulations, our Constitution, and By-Laws. In an ideal world that would also mean I should never have any serious disagreements with my chain of command. But regardless of who's in command, I do my homework and make sure my orders are legit before I run blindly over the cliff. That's my responsibility and duty to
my subordinates. ;)
I received a back channel communication from Major Munger regarding this thread, and received permission to repost it:
QuoteDoug,
Thanks for the support on CAPTALK.
I can read that stuff, but I don't post to it, nor do I want to.
I don't know if you'd like to forward this or not, but if you can, here is my reply:
On Wednesday, a person identified only as "No Names Please," posted to CAPTALK a missive entitled, "Why won't Skip Munger post my letter to the 'editor' of News of the Force? You can read it for yourself and decide...."
Well, we would have printed it if this fool had sent it to us properly. He sent it to newsoftheforce@yahoogroups.com , which is an address to which only News of the Force can post. Therefore, we never received it, nor did we see it. If he had sent it to us at newsoftheforce@aol.com, or to newsoftheforce-owner@yahoogroups.com, e-mail addresses plainly published everywhere, we would have received it. We find it hard to believe that he did not receive a "bounce" message telling him (or her) why the message did not reach us, but this person fails to mention that.
Additionally, this person sent the message, apparently, on Dec. 24, during which or systems were down due to a cyber-attack (word of which was also posted on CAPTALK). So, even if it had been sent to the correct e-mail address, we still may not have received it, but it wasn't even sent to a correct address.
And, while CAP members continually chastise us for not naming names, this person posts an anonymous letter on CAPTALK. It must be all right to do that on CAPTALK, but not OK for News of the Force to withhold names to protect the innocent, at least according to some CAP members.
We ARE a world-wide news organization, and NOTF is published on numerous e-mail hosts, including Yahoo! groups. And, despite what has been printed on CAPTALK, we do actually have a domain: http://newsoftheforce.org .
The story about Pineda was first broken by us and was picked up by news media outlets around the world. But it wouldn't have mattered whether it was Pineda, the Secretary of the Army, or the commandant of the Coast Guard -- we still would have broken the story because it is news. But, obviously, some CAP members have no idea who reads our stuff.
And, they're also wrong in that they have said this story came to us from Ray Hayden. We did not get this from him, but we did conduct a telephone interview with him after we received a copy of his resignation letter from the CAP from another source. We also conducted a telephone interview with the PAO of the Air Command and Staff College before running the story, and the national CAP PAO did not reply to our inquiry.
In another thread on CAPTALK, "Resignation of Pineda????" you wrote: "[Pineda] has weathered, and even prospered, from much worse scandals than this. General Bergman terminated him as Florida Wing Commander for the vindictive termination of the National PAO of the year. Did he slink away with his tail between his legs? No, he convinced Bergman to leave him his authority to wear eagles, and proceeded to suck up to the next Wing Commander, whom he convinced to terminate any of his competition for re-appointment as Wing Commander. He has weathered Cadet Achievement cheating scandals, cadet sexual abuse scandals, cadet physical abuse scandals, and who knows what else, all without there ever being an official investigation by National, as dictated by the regulations."
We'd say that about covers it. Obviously, a man of such integrity would never have had an underling do his ACSC tests for him.
Skip Munger
News of the Force
Gee, Mr. Munger (please don't refer to this person as Major Munger - it degrades the rank as he's not a CAP member and obviously doesn't support the goals of the organization), I never got the message that my email had bounced.
I have to admit that I'm not a subscriber to your gossip column and wasn't familiar with the process of sending in rebuttals.
But I looked in your 'newsgroup' today and saw that you didn't take my letter off of Captalk and post it to your scandel sheet, even though you readily reprint other articles that you are interested in getting out to your readership if it fits your twisted agenda.
Let's see if this post shames you into putting my letter out to your readers - I doubt it will. Prove me wrong.
I remain anonymous, but my letter accurately reflects my thoughts and opinions on this matter, unlike your obvious 'third-party sources' that are in many cases nothing more than a figment of your own imagination as you promote your CAP-hate agenda. Take responsibility for your own opinions - I do.
These red herrings that you are tossing out take nothing away from the facts of the case, and as it sits right now there are unsubstantiated claims from a disgruntled former CAP member who was relieved from his position with just cause (who is also an admitted cheater and liar in his own words to the entire world).
You are pouring gas on this fire in your lame attempt to even the score with someone you have a personal feud with. This is pretty low even for you, Mr. Munger.
I'm not the problem with this issue, and neither are you (even though it appears you relish the limelight). The claim is being investigated in due process, which is something that you obviously refuse to give similar consideration to.
It's nice to see that your petty obsession with knocking down Gen Pineda continues to set your agenda in reporting about CAP. I wish I had the amount of time that you do to waste on chasing windmills.
Please go back to your basement and your computers and make up more garbage about CAP. I'm not going to demean myself by responding to your insults ("this fool", etc.) or you in the future. This will be my last comment on this matter until the IG report is issued, which will obviously clear Gen Pineda.
Quote from: Skyray on December 28, 2006, 02:01:25 PM
I received a back channel communication from Major Munger regarding this thread, and received permission to repost it:
QuoteDoug,
Thanks for the support on CAPTALK.
I can read that stuff, but I don't post to it, nor do I want to.
I don't know if you'd like to forward this or not, but if you can, here is my reply:
On Wednesday, a person identified only as "No Names Please," posted to CAPTALK a missive entitled, "Why won't Skip Munger post my letter to the 'editor' of News of the Force? You can read it for yourself and decide...."
Well, we would have printed it if this fool had sent it to us properly. He sent it to newsoftheforce@yahoogroups.com , which is an address to which only News of the Force can post. Therefore, we never received it, nor did we see it. If he had sent it to us at newsoftheforce@aol.com, or to newsoftheforce-owner@yahoogroups.com, e-mail addresses plainly published everywhere, we would have received it. We find it hard to believe that he did not receive a "bounce" message telling him (or her) why the message did not reach us, but this person fails to mention that.
Additionally, this person sent the message, apparently, on Dec. 24, during which or systems were down due to a cyber-attack (word of which was also posted on CAPTALK). So, even if it had been sent to the correct e-mail address, we still may not have received it, but it wasn't even sent to a correct address.
And, while CAP members continually chastise us for not naming names, this person posts an anonymous letter on CAPTALK. It must be all right to do that on CAPTALK, but not OK for News of the Force to withhold names to protect the innocent, at least according to some CAP members.
We ARE a world-wide news organization, and NOTF is published on numerous e-mail hosts, including Yahoo! groups. And, despite what has been printed on CAPTALK, we do actually have a domain: http://newsoftheforce.org .
The story about Pineda was first broken by us and was picked up by news media outlets around the world. But it wouldn't have mattered whether it was Pineda, the Secretary of the Army, or the commandant of the Coast Guard -- we still would have broken the story because it is news. But, obviously, some CAP members have no idea who reads our stuff.
And, they're also wrong in that they have said this story came to us from Ray Hayden. We did not get this from him, but we did conduct a telephone interview with him after we received a copy of his resignation letter from the CAP from another source. We also conducted a telephone interview with the PAO of the Air Command and Staff College before running the story, and the national CAP PAO did not reply to our inquiry.
In another thread on CAPTALK, "Resignation of Pineda????" you wrote: "[Pineda] has weathered, and even prospered, from much worse scandals than this. General Bergman terminated him as Florida Wing Commander for the vindictive termination of the National PAO of the year. Did he slink away with his tail between his legs? No, he convinced Bergman to leave him his authority to wear eagles, and proceeded to suck up to the next Wing Commander, whom he convinced to terminate any of his competition for re-appointment as Wing Commander. He has weathered Cadet Achievement cheating scandals, cadet sexual abuse scandals, cadet physical abuse scandals, and who knows what else, all without there ever being an official investigation by National, as dictated by the regulations."
We'd say that about covers it. Obviously, a man of such integrity would never have had an underling do his ACSC tests for him.
Skip Munger
News of the Force
Not to fuel the argument, but this "premier" news outlet, News of the Force... well, their home hosting account for their website has exceeded their bandwidth limit. ;)
"ISP attacks/cripples/censurs premier news organization, CAP PAO has no comment, film at 11"
Quote from: Pylon on December 28, 2006, 04:06:07 PM
Not to fuel the argument, but this "premier" news outlet, News of the Force... well, their home hosting account for their website has exceeded their bandwidth limit. ;)
Ha Ha!
(http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/ATA/24818BP~The-Simpsons-Nelson-Haha-Posters.jpg)
Pylon wrote:
QuoteNot to fuel the argument, but this "premier" news outlet, News of the Force... well, their home hosting account for their website has exceeded their bandwidth limit.
Not sure which way this is supposed to cut. CWO Munger, USA (Retired) (that's a real rank, NoName, issued by a real armed service, not some rinky-dink wannabee) formed News of the Force to serve a market that was previously unserved. I subscribe, and very little of the content has anything to do with the Civil Air Patrol. It serves a niche market, and frankly is a little conservative and supportive of the current administration for my taste. But it is quantum leaps more balanced reporting than Fox News. As for being over their bandwidth, I am happy for them that they are getting that kind of response.
Is CWO Munger the guy behind all of this? I remember reading about this guy last year. He fabricated this story about Pineda and some issue that happened in Florida with a cadet. It was all lies and made up. Is this the same guy? OMG
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 28, 2006, 05:09:32 PM
Is CWO Munger the guy behind all of this? I remember reading about this guy last year. He fabricated this story about Pineda and some issue that happened in Florida with a cadet. It was all lies and made up. Is this the same guy? OMG
I don't know where you get your information, but if you are speaking of the
[name redacted by admin] matter where her little brother got a 2B for complaining that she was trading sexual favors for the answers to cadet achievements and the DCC struck him and locked him in the squad room, that was not made up. I represented the brother at an appeals board and got him reinstated. Then when I tried to renew my membership, I got a nice little letter from National saying that I could not renew because Florida Wing objected. It went downhill from there, culminating when Pineda tried to bully Munger into taking responsibility for the investigation of the Fealey matter being "lost." The matter was
Never investigated. and I had the devil's own time preventing the mother from suing CAP.
Mod Edit: Cadet's Name Removed. Violation of CAPTalk Code of Conduct, Bullet 4.
Quote from: NoNamesPlease on December 28, 2006, 04:02:24 PM
Gee, Mr. Munger (please don't refer to this person as Major Munger - it degrades the rank as he's not a CAP member and obviously doesn't support the goals of the organization), I never got the message that my email had bounced.
I have to admit that I'm not a subscriber to your gossip column and wasn't familiar with the process of sending in rebuttals.
But I looked in your 'newsgroup' today and saw that you didn't take my letter off of Captalk and post it to your scandel sheet, even though you readily reprint other articles that you are interested in getting out to your readership if it fits your twisted agenda.
Let's see if this post shames you into putting my letter out to your readers - I doubt it will. Prove me wrong.
I remain anonymous, but my letter accurately reflects my thoughts and opinions on this matter, unlike your obvious 'third-party sources' that are in many cases nothing more than a figment of your own imagination as you promote your CAP-hate agenda. Take responsibility for your own opinions - I do.
These red herrings that you are tossing out take nothing away from the facts of the case, and as it sits right now there are unsubstantiated claims from a disgruntled former CAP member who was relieved from his position with just cause (who is also an admitted cheater and liar in his own words to the entire world).
You are pouring gas on this fire in your lame attempt to even the score with someone you have a personal feud with. This is pretty low even for you, Mr. Munger.
I'm not the problem with this issue, and neither are you (even though it appears you relish the limelight). The claim is being investigated in due process, which is something that you obviously refuse to give similar consideration to.
It's nice to see that your petty obsession with knocking down Gen Pineda continues to set your agenda in reporting about CAP. I wish I had the amount of time that you do to waste on chasing windmills.
Please go back to your basement and your computers and make up more garbage about CAP. I'm not going to demean myself by responding to your insults ("this fool", etc.) or you in the future. This will be my last comment on this matter until the IG report is issued, which will obviously clear Gen Pineda.
Sounds like NHQ being heard from. Ever heard of a jailhouse snitch?
Bottom line: If you want to believe that NOTF is a gossip rag only out to slam CAP or anyone in power over in Soggy Bottom, AL then it's obvious you don't read it and don't know what you're talking about. Why? Because about 60-70 percent of the CAP stories there are positive about CAP, usually written by a local media outlet. Probably another 10-15 percent are stories about SAR/DR ops going on that made the wires. The other 15 percent are the bad and uglies.
You're going to have a hard time reconciling the fact that your little gossip rag story had enough legs for the Miami Herald, AP, UPI and Air Force Times to stake their reputation on.
Johnny Y.
Quote from: Skyray on December 29, 2006, 01:49:53 AM
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 28, 2006, 05:09:32 PM
Is CWO Munger the guy behind all of this? I remember reading about this guy last year. He fabricated this story about Pineda and some issue that happened in Florida with a cadet. It was all lies and made up. Is this the same guy? OMG
I don't know where you get your information, but if you are speaking of the [[name redacted by admin]] matter where her little brother got a 2B for complaining that she was trading sexual favors for the answers to cadet achievements and the DCC struck him and locked him in the squad room, that was not made up. I represented the brother at an appeals board and got him reinstated. Then when I tried to renew my membership, I got a nice little letter from National saying that I could not renew because Florida Wing objected. It went downhill from there, culminating when Pineda tried to bully Munger into taking responsibility for the investigation of the Fealey matter being "lost." The matter was Never investigated. and I had the devil's own time preventing the mother from suing CAP.
No, thats not what I was referring too, but thanks for putting it out so everyone now knows about it. I was talking about an aritlce that at first I thought was real, but then I found out that the name was made up and it came from this Munger guy's website. I then loked him up on my Army AKO and found him.
But to what you said, a cadet was giving sex for answers to a cadet test? Dang, I dont know of any cadet test that is that serious to warrent giving sex for. SOme folks take CAP way too serious.
[mod edit: removed cadet's name]
From flyguy06:
QuoteBut to what you said, a cadet was giving sex for answers to a cadet test? Dang, I dont know of any cadet test that is that serious to warrant giving sex for. Some folks take CAP way too serious.
In candor, I don't think that she considered having sex as that serious a thing. The issue arose when her fourteen year old brother started acting out because she was advancing much faster than he was, and her alleged sex partner (an adult senior member) struck him and locked him in the squad room. The brother was 2Bed, and the girl was helped to move out of her parental home by squadron officers. That's when I got into it at the invitation of the cadets' mother, who had me represent the fourteen year old at a 2B Appeals Board. I was not allowed to introduce any evidence of the relationship between the girl and her DCC, but I got the younger cadet reinstated any way. It was a futile effort, he dropped out of CAP within a couple of months. Munger's involvement was that he was the Wing Administrative Officer, and Pineda tried to bully him into taking responsibility for the investigation being swept under the rug. If you are familiar with the regulations, the simple allegation of cadet sexual abuse or cadet physical abuse trigger a
mandatory investigation by National. It never happened.
Quote from: Skyray on December 29, 2006, 07:48:07 PM
If you are familiar with the regulations, the simple allegation of cadet sexual abuse or cadet physical abuse trigger a mandatory investigation by National. It never happened.
Quote from: CAPR 52-10, para 1.aa. Sexual Abuse. Sexual abuse is defined as sexual molestation, touching, contact, exposure, suggestions, or other incidents of a sexually oriented nature. The unit commander will immediately notify the wing commander who will immediately notify the wing legal officer and the General Counsel (at 334-264-7152 during business hours or 888-519-8338 after hours, weekends, and holidays) or the Executive Director (at 334-834-2236). No investigation will be conducted nor statements taken until specifically directed by the General Counsel. The General Counsel will notify the region commander, other appropriate officials, and state agencies as required.
No where does it say an investigation must be conducted. Not knowing any of the details (and not wanting to get into them here), if the unit commander reported it to the wing commander, wing legal and the General Counsel and/or Executive Director....and they determined that the relationship did not cross the line into abuse....then no investigation was needed.
This was before the hard and fast senior on cadet relationship rule was put into place.
As far as bringing any other accusations into a 2b hearing....why would you need to? The brother was 2bed because he was too immature and was acting up. It does not matter why his sister was getting promoted faster...so there was no need to introduce that situation into the record.
The fact that the girl moved out of her parents house, seems to imply that she was no longer a minor...ergo....her relationship was not illegal or against CAP regulations as they were written at the time.
I'm not sure by what you mean when you say..
"Munger's involvement was that he was the Wing Administrative Officer, and Pineda tried to bully him into taking responsibility for the investigation being swept under the rug."
Are you saying that Col (now MGen) Pineda wanted Munger to do the investigation but keep it quite...or are you saying....Col Pineda was blaming Munger for getting the investigation squashed?
I haven't kept up with this conversation much since the first couple of pages, so forgive me if someone has already posted this, but....
...the Miami Herald has corrected its articles to say Maxwell Air Force Base, Alabama rather than Texas. Hooray for research.
Quote from: CAP428 on December 30, 2006, 05:35:12 AM
I haven't kept up with this conversation much since the first couple of pages, so forgive me if someone has already posted this, but....
...the Miami Herald has corrected its articles to say Maxwell Air Force Base, Alabama rather than Texas. Hooray for research.
That was just a typo and realy wasnt important to the story. Not really worht mentioning if you ask me
No, it wasn't important to the story, but it shows an underlying lack of attention to detail. If she couldn't find out where NHQ was, what other information was she skipping?
It couldn't have been "just a typo." It was a lack of checking information. I mean, look at the keyboard. Typing "A-L-A" is nowhere close to typing "T-E-X." There's no way it was just a typing incident.
But you are correct, specifically it has no bearing on the story.
When I say a typo, I dont mean she typed the wrong thing. I mean she probably didnt research it very well, but who cares? The location of Maxwel AFB isnt relevabt to the story. The story is about cheating on a online test. The location of Maxwell is irrelevant to the story. Maxwell could be inCalifornia but the allegation still remains and thats the basis of the story.
If you have met Ray Haden, who made these allegations, you would probably come to the same conclusion I have. He is a very troubled person who deserves our sympathy, but certainly deserves no respect for his very malicious attack on all of us.
Haden is now the recipient a CAPF 2B for incredibly inappropriate behavior at a Florida Wing PD weekend, which he was coordinating. The termination, applauded by anyone who saw his conduct, prompted this troubled man to find a focus for his anger. The focus became our National Commander, who now has to spend time dealing with the frivolous and false rants of this disturbed former member, who has embarrassed us all.
Patrick M. Harris, Captain, CAP, drew upon his vast knowledge of Cap Regulations and pontificated:
QuoteNo where does it say an investigation must be conducted. Not knowing any of the details (and not wanting to get into them here), if the unit commander reported it to the wing commander, wing legal and the General Counsel and/or Executive Director....and they determined that the relationship did not cross the line into abuse....then no investigation was needed.
This was before the hard and fast senior on cadet relationship rule was put into place.
I communicated directly with Scott Hamilton, purported to be General Counsel at the time, and he professed to have no knowledge of the events. The mother of the girl, who was 16 at the time, communicated with both the Wing and National Commanders, and in accordance with Harris's excuse, the Wing Commander told her that a sixteen year old could sleep with whomever she pleased. Two things wrong with that analysis, the wing commander is not the General Counsel, and the General Counsel, being a lawyer, would have known that was not an accurate statement of Florida Law. Moving her out of her parental influence without a court order was contributing to the delinquency of a minor.
I hate to disagree with such a positive source of CAP Regulations, but my recollection is that there was a positive restriction on Senior Members having sexual relations with cadets when I joined the CAP in the mid 80s. In fact, one of the problems in my first SLS was what should be done about a couple of sexually active cadets when one of them decided to turn senior.
As a mere picking of rhetorical nits, a determination by the General Counsel
is an investigation. At least it is if he adheres to his oath as a lawyer. But it wasn't done. Remember, he didn't know about it. The squadron commander, who opposed me in the 2B appeal, and for whom I developed a lot of respect over the years, did inform me that the DCC had been "counseled" over his affinity for female cadets. Apparently this girl was not the first. But the squadron commander had done her duty, Pineda knew about it, and all the sweeping under the rug was taking place from Pineda up.