Our squadron meeting tonight commenced with the new deputy commander asking us to "Please, bow your heads" and saying a prayer to "Our father".
I was surprised. It was a first in my two years at CAP.
Is this common at CAP meetings?
I am concerned that this will drive new members away.
Our members are, no offence, older. I am getting there myself. But I think the squadron needs younger people who are going to drive the organization forward and I am not so sure that many of these people are comfortable with the religion aspect of CAP if it is actively practiced during the meetings.
My view is that the younger demographic embraces the major CAP functions, probably doesn't object to the chaplaincy part of the organization but feels awkward being asked to participate in group prayer.
Our commander has just retired his tenure. New commander. New deputy. I really like all of them. But I am just wondering whether CAP members think this new meeting format is a good idea or not.
I have read lots of postings on CAP Talk about this. I see many conflicting and misguided views. Things like "No, you can't do that". Then when I actually dug up and read CAP265-4 (E) from 1994, I read:
"Specific duties. As your unit's religious leader, you are responsible for fulfilling the twelve Core Processes listed in paragraph 1-1. Generally, chaplains do so by: a) Opening unit meetings with prayer."
and:
"b. Personally interviewing each new member and maintaining a confidential CAP Form 48, Religious Interview Guide."
and:
"c. Actively encouraging regular church or synagogue attendance by unit members."
That document was 32 pages. Then I pulled up the 2010 version. It had been reduced to 11 pages. All the stuff above had gone. But in there was the following:
"When working under the guidance of a chaplain, CAP members may provide non-clergy support for chaplain professional ministry. CAP members may offer non-denominational prayers in the absence of a unit chaplain."
Hi Simon,
I don't believe the intent of the 265-4(E) was to mandate prayer as an opening for meetings. I wouldn't want to spring it on a squadron that doesn't have that kind of history without some concerted education and consensus building.
The RIG is done so that it is a conversation between Chaplain and member and is not used to judge or proselytize a members faith or lack thereof.
The encouragement to regular attendance of Church or Synagogue or Mosque or Temple, is for people who have identified to the chaplain that they are members of a particular faith group. It would be inappropriate, in my opinion, for a chaplain to encourage faith participation for an "unaffiliated" member, unless that member is asking for advice on that particular subject.
The actions listed for a chaplain to fulfill the 12 Core Processes are "suggestive" rather than "mandated" (with exception to the RIG).
My questions for you are:
1. Do you have a squadron chaplain?
2. Is the squadron chaplain officially a part of the CAP Chaplain Corps? I have noticed that a few squadrons have had the practice of a local clergy person coming in to be a part of meetings, performing "official" chaplain duties, but who have not gone through channels of having that person go through the process of becoming a CAP Chaplain. This practice raises significant issues for the organization.
3. What is the commanders intent of instituting the practice?
4. Was the Wing Chaplain consulted?
5. Are you planning to raise this as an issue to your squadron commander?
An invocation is common at many public gatherings, from meetings to NASCAR races.
If it would keep someone from joining, then perhaps that person isn't serious enough about being a member in the first place.
My previous unit, a senior squadron, does an invocation every meeting and is having trouble keeping up with the numbers of people who want to join.
Does the Air Force open their work day or the Air Guard commence their UTAs/drill weekends with an invocation?
Quote from: Rotorhead on April 13, 2010, 12:54:42 PM
If it would keep someone from joining, then perhaps that person isn't serious enough about being a member in the first place.
It wouldnt stop me from joining but I would be looking for a different squadron rather than that one.
Maybe this is off topic, but wouldn't opening the meeting with the Pledge of Allegiance be more appropriate?
Quote from: simon on April 13, 2010, 07:53:33 AM
Our squadron meeting tonight commenced with the new deputy commander asking us to "Please, bow your heads" and saying a prayer to "Our father".
I was surprised. It was a first in my two years at CAP.
Is this common at CAP meetings?
We do an opening prayer in my unit too, which doesn't necessarily bother me. However, lately, the Chaplain has started asking for prayer requests, which to me crosses into an unacceptable level of religiosity. It's not that I'm anti-religion; I'm not. I just find it inappropriate for a CAP meeting.
Quote from: disamuel on April 13, 2010, 01:47:38 PM
Maybe this is off topic, but wouldn't opening the meeting with the Pledge of Allegiance be more appropriate?
As a DCC, I really don't like the pledge. During my time in the military, I never once said the pledge. As a military cadet program with an Air Force heritage, I find an opening formation with a retreat ceremony to be a more appropriate way to start meetings and honor the flag.
Opening prayer/invocation: NO!
Opening formation: YES!
We are not a church. An invocation as part of a formal dinner is one thing, doing it at the start of every meeting is something all together different.
I have never been in a squadron that opens with a prayer. Invocations/Benedictions are common at formal dinners I've been to, but not regular squadron meetings.
I'm of the belief that CAP should operate in a secular fashion. Religious/spiritual needs should certainly be accommodated, but not a featured part of our training and operations.
My SLS course included an hour long church service by one of our chaplains. I was a bit surprised to say the least.
Any prayer that is said needs to be 100% non-secular and generalized, which in many cases causes so much heartburn as to end the issue with that sentence.
I agreee - formation yes, prayer, no.
Quote from: Fubar on April 13, 2010, 02:19:19 PM
My SLS course included an hour long church service by one of our chaplains. I was a bit surprised to say the least.
As part of the curriculum or an optional service? The former doesn't fly.
We generally open the indoor portion of our meetings with the Pledge of Allegiance, the Cadet Oath, and if the Chaplain is present an invocation. Our Chaplain is very good at keeping it nondenominational, short, and to the point. We have members from several different faiths including Judaism, and no one seems to mind.
Quote from: Eclipse on April 13, 2010, 02:20:25 PM
As part of the curriculum or an optional service? The former doesn't fly.
Part of the curriculum. It was even on the agenda, so I asked about it ahead of time and was told it would be more of a moral leadership discussion. Instead, it was speech on how we all needed to be more religious in all aspects of our lives.
Quote from: Pylon on April 13, 2010, 01:17:07 PM
Does the Air Force open their work day or the Air Guard commence their UTAs/drill weekends with an invocation?
It does when the Chaplain stops by for a unit visit.
Quote from: disamuel on April 13, 2010, 01:47:38 PM
Maybe this is off topic, but wouldn't opening the meeting with the Pledge of Allegiance be more appropriate?
Incidentally ... my unit was doing the pledge of allegiance when I transferred, and I never brought up the point from CAPP 151 that says "When in a military-style uniform, stand at attention and remain silent... The pledge is not normally recited when CAP members are in formation. Reciting the pledge when in military-style uniform, let alone when assembled in a formation, is somewhat redundant – the uniform and all the other trappings of national service are themselves symbols of a special devotion to America."
Assuming 80% of the unit is in military-style uniform, it'd be a pretty quiet pledge of allegiance following that guidance.
Quote from: Fubar on April 13, 2010, 03:03:38 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on April 13, 2010, 02:20:25 PM
As part of the curriculum or an optional service? The former doesn't fly.
Part of the curriculum. It was even on the agenda, so I asked about it ahead of time and was told it would be more of a moral leadership discussion. Instead, it was speech on how we all needed to be more religious in all aspects of our lives.
One of many reasons SLS/CLC instructors and curriculum need to be vetted by Wing, etc.
Quote from: simon on April 13, 2010, 07:53:33 AM
I have read lots of postings on CAP Talk about this. I see many conflicting and misguided views. Things like "No, you can't do that". Then when I actually dug up and read CAP265-4 (E) from 1994, I read:
"Specific duties. As your unit's religious leader, you are responsible for fulfilling the twelve Core Processes listed in paragraph 1-1. Generally, chaplains do so by: a) Opening unit meetings with prayer."
and:
"b. Personally interviewing each new member and maintaining a confidential CAP Form 48, Religious Interview Guide."
and:
"c. Actively encouraging regular church or synagogue attendance by unit members."
That document was 32 pages. Then I pulled up the 2010 version. It had been reduced to 11 pages. All the stuff above had gone. But in there was the following:
"When working under the guidance of a chaplain, CAP members may provide non-clergy support for chaplain professional ministry. CAP members may offer non-denominational prayers in the absence of a unit chaplain."
Can you point me to the 2010 document you referred to??? I am not aware that there is a 2010 version available...I do know that the CAPP 265-4 (1994) is currently being updated and has not been released. So I am a bit confused as to what document you are referring to and where you found it. I do know that the 12 processes will be 5 processes -- reflecting the same processes of the USAF Chaplain Corps.
Quote from: Eclipse on April 13, 2010, 03:15:43 PM
Quote from: Fubar on April 13, 2010, 03:03:38 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on April 13, 2010, 02:20:25 PM
As part of the curriculum or an optional service? The former doesn't fly.
Part of the curriculum. It was even on the agenda, so I asked about it ahead of time and was told it would be more of a moral leadership discussion. Instead, it was speech on how we all needed to be more religious in all aspects of our lives.
One of many reasons SLS/CLC instructors and curriculum need to be vetted by Wing, etc.
I have conducted an optional worship service at SLS/CLC -- however, as part of the curriculum in the past the session was limited to the role of the Chaplain/CDI and the familiarization of the Character Development program.
When I served as a Squadron Chaplain -- and when I visit units...I have been requested to conclude the meeting with a benediction. In the 14 years that I have served as a CAP chaplain and offered prayer at Squadron, Group, Wing, Region and National activities...I have yet to receive a complaint or a concern raised regarding the content of the prayer(s) offered. A good resource is the Book of Prayers that was published by the USAF Chaplain Corps many years ago and was made available through CAPMart. That resource is available on the PCR Chaplain Corps web-site: http://hc.pcr.cap.gov/downloads/CAP_Book_of_Prayers.pdf
As one of the only atheists in my squadron's foxhole, filling out the CAP Form 48, Religious Interview Guide on one of my first nights was a bit interesting. "None... N/A... No... None... None... No" etc. Handed it back to the Chaplin who looked at it, nodded his head and said "OK, thanks!" Never heard anything about it after that.
That said, we do an invocation at the beginning of our meetings, and it irritates me, but not enough to worry about it. When we're in formation and everyone bows their heads, I just stand and look straight ahead. 99% of the time it's something along the lines of "keep us safe in our training, help us in our testing, blah blah blah" and is pretty non-dom. But, we're also meeting in a church right now but thankfully are looking for somewhere else to go. When I was in Boy Scouts as a teenager, it was a lot more pronounced and integrated.
I guess I'm tolerant enough not to care, until someone tries to force it on me.
Well.....as an atheist....I don't have much time for chaplains.
BUT....I am not everybody....and everybody is not me.....I understand what chaplains do and know that there are CAP members who need/want the services that they provide.
I have no problem with a prayer before a meeting.....I remain silent and respect my fellow members' right to worship as they see fit.
Is this really and issue? No....so long as the prayer is short, middle of the road and does not cross that line into preaching.
Quote from: BrianH76 on April 13, 2010, 02:04:42 PMWe do an opening prayer in my unit too, which doesn't necessarily bother me. However, lately, the Chaplain has started asking for prayer requests, which to me crosses into an unacceptable level of religiosity. It's not that I'm anti-religion; I'm not. I just find it inappropriate for a CAP meeting.
I am a regular church goer, and don't have a problem with an invocation either. But prayer requests are not appropriate. If someone has one, they can seek out the chaplain when time becomes available. It doesn't need to be addressed for all attendees of the meeting. And not everyone wants to bring up requests for all attending either.
Quote from: Hawk200 on April 13, 2010, 04:11:36 PM
Quote from: BrianH76 on April 13, 2010, 02:04:42 PMWe do an opening prayer in my unit too, which doesn't necessarily bother me. However, lately, the Chaplain has started asking for prayer requests, which to me crosses into an unacceptable level of religiosity. It's not that I'm anti-religion; I'm not. I just find it inappropriate for a CAP meeting.
I am a regular church goer, and don't have a problem with an invocation either. But prayer requests are not appropriate. If someone has one, they can seek out the chaplain when time becomes available. It doesn't need to be addressed for all attendees of the meeting. And not everyone wants to bring up requests for all attending either.
I wholeheartedly concur with this. Unless I have been briefed by the Commander (regardless of what level) about a specific need that should be included in the prayer, taking prayer requests (IMHO) should not take place. Most of the time when a member has approached me and asked about having prayer for a need/concern that affords me the opportunity to pray with that person individually (provided that is what the person has indicated) or encourage the person with the knowledge that I will be keeping them in my prayers.
Quote from: BrianH76 on April 13, 2010, 02:04:42 PMQuote from: disamuel on April 13, 2010, 01:47:38 PM
Maybe this is off topic, but wouldn't opening the meeting with the Pledge of Allegiance be more appropriate?
As a DCC, I really don't like the pledge. During my time in the military, I never once said the pledge. As a military cadet program with an Air Force heritage, I find an opening formation with a retreat ceremony to be a more appropriate way to start meetings and honor the flag.
When you were in the military you didn't say the pledge because you had already sworn to "Protect the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, both foreign and domestic" when you enlisted/accepted your commission.
I grew up in church, still attend, my father is a pastor and former CAP chaplain. When our Chaplain is present, I have him do an opening invocation. He is an Anglican Chaplain. However, we do not do prayer requests. If someone needs to meet with the Chaplain in private, that would be appropriate. I do not attend CAP to attend church.
Now, OK....if we had a member who was in the hospital, and the Chaplain throws in a "heal Joe" in the prayer, OK. However, that too can run you into issues. For example, I am a Christian. I dont want or need (example) a Muslim Chaplain praying for me. So you gotta be aware. So the best bet is to just keep it simple if your going to do it.
Thank you everybody for the wide range of responses. In particular:
DogCollar,
In response to your questions:
"1. Do you have a squadron chaplain?"
We did until about a year ago. He became very sick and stopped attending.
"2. Is the squadron chaplain officially a part of the CAP Chaplain Corps? I have noticed that a few squadrons have had the practice of a local clergy person coming in to be a part of meetings, performing "official" chaplain duties, but who have not gone through channels of having that person go through the process of becoming a CAP Chaplain. This practice raises significant issues for the organization."
He is retired from the Navy and was a chaplain there. I believe he had been a CAP member for many years. I do not know whether he went through the CAP chaplain process. I assume so. I never witnessed him doing anything openly religious in the squadron. He was a passive participant. This thing that happened last night was a first from a member, who is the PDO officer and now deputy commander.
"3. What is the commanders intent of instituting the practice?"
I do not know. I thought I would go to CAP Talk and raise the question to get CAP community feedback first.
"4. Was the Wing Chaplain consulted?"
I do not know. At this point our squadron is chaplain-less. My view is that the PDO officer is taking it upon herself to maintaining a sense of spirituality in the absence of a chaplain. She used to speak highly of the chaplain when he was there. I think they were close.
"5. Are you planning to raise this as an issue to your squadron commander?"
I am in two minds about it. I think it will hinder growth of the squadron. That concerns me. We need to feed the squadron with new, younger members who are fit enough to act as air and ground crew. Many young people today are not religious, do not pray and in my view if they attend a CAP meeting and have to sit through a prayer, they will feel uncomfortable and will not come back. That is just my opinion. I could be wrong.
Rotorhead,
"An invocation is common at many public gatherings, from meetings to NASCAR races."
True.
"If it would keep someone from joining, then perhaps that person isn't serious enough about being a member in the first place."
I disagree that being uncomfortable with prayer means that a person is not serious about being a CAP member. 1 in 7 adults are non religious. 1 in 5 under 30 years old. You just excluded them.
nesagsar,
"It wouldnt stop me from joining but I would be looking for a different squadron rather than that one."
Agreed. I want the squadron to grow and feel that this will limit growth.
disamuel
"wouldn't opening the meeting with the Pledge of Allegiance be more appropriate?"
We do. Always. This came right afterwards.
BrianH76,
"It's not that I'm anti-religion; I'm not. I just find it inappropriate for a CAP meeting."
Agreed.
Chappie
"Can you point me to the 2010 document you referred to???"
It is R265-1 dated 15 October 2009: http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/R265_001_538BD6B239386.pdf
Marshalus,
"I guess I'm tolerant enough not to care, until someone tries to force it on me."
Positive attitude. I just don't want a prospective member to not come back because they weren't comfortable with it.
It comes back to why the Civil Air Patrol exists, why people join, what kind of people join and whether having a prayer at the meetings fits with all this.
CAP exists for three reasons:
1. Emergency Services
2. Cadet Programs
3. Aerospace Education
People join to participate in one or more of these areas. I am in it for emergency services. Aerospace education could also be pretty interesting, although it is not my area. Cadets do what they do and that is fine - it is a great program. I just don't know how well prayer fits in, at least to commence a seniors meeting safety meeting, like it did last night.
I guess the problem I am having as I sat through the prayer is that there are several good and enthusiastic pilots I know that I have considered bringing along to a CAP meeting so see whether they might be interested. I have held off because some of them are very busy with their work and families, so putting up with the CAP paperwork and training to get their way through to the point where they could actually fly as a mission pilot might be too much committment for them (All CAP pilots know it seems to take forever between joining CAP and actually getting rated as a mission pilot). Some of them are definitely not religious. I am pretty sure the prayer thing would be enough to put them off. My thought last night was that I wouldn't even invite them to come along if this was going to be a regular thing.
Simon wrote:
Chappie
"Can you point me to the 2010 document you referred to???"
It is R265-1 dated 15 October 2009: http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/R265_001_538BD6B239386.pdf
Thanks. That clears it up --- the 12 processes were found in the CAPP 265-4 "The Chaplain Service Handbook" (1994) and the 2010 document you referred to is the CAPR 265-1 - The Chaplain Corps Regulation. The Handbook is being revised/updated since it is really dated and there have been significant changes in the CAP Chaplain Corps since it was published. Once all the changes have taken place (i.e. the Form 34 reporting process), the CAPP 265-4 will be released.
The Chaplain Corps Handbook (pamphlet) simply fleshes out the content found in the regulation.
Quote from: Flying Pig on April 13, 2010, 04:46:13 PM
For example, I am a Christian. I dont want or need (example) a Muslim Chaplain praying for me.
Exactly the reason why I'm not affiliated with anything. While I have studied various faiths to understand their view of the world, I still fail to see why that should matter. If someone wants to pray that you get better, I cannot understand why that would be a horrible thing. While I don't feel that the prayer goes anywhere otherworldly, any type of positive energy directed your way can only help... plus it makes the people doing it feel better about the situation.
This has been a very respectful, insightful and educational thread for me. I just want to let everyone know how much I appreciate the responses to the original poster.
Quote from: simon on April 13, 2010, 05:34:13 PM
"If it would keep someone from joining, then perhaps that person isn't serious enough about being a member in the first place."
I disagree that being uncomfortable with prayer means that a person is not serious about being a CAP member. 1 in 7 adults are non religious. 1 in 5 under 30 years old. You just excluded them.
Nope, I am "non-religious." But observing this custom did not keep me from joining the squadron.
Anyone who would overlook the merits of a good unit because of this 30 seconds at the top of the meeting is only punishing themselves.
And as I stated, the unit to which I refer is growing so quickly they can barely keep up. No evidence that an invocation is "scaring people away" or whatever.
I for one think someone is just stirring the pot, but with that said.. I would like to see the cite for the 1 in 5 young people are not religious and some definitions to go with that. That said, with my years involved with aviation, I have found very, very, few pilots that didn't believe in God. It's hard to get airborn and enjoy the wonders of the world from aloft and then deny that there is a God involved in the overall beauty and wonder of it all.. Further, if you disbanded all of the units associated with and supported by Churches, you would have a severe decrease ibn active squadrons. More squadrons meet in Churches than on military bases..
Quote from: simon on April 13, 2010, 07:53:33 AM
Our squadron meeting tonight commenced with the new deputy commander asking us to "Please, bow your heads" and saying a prayer to "Our father".
I was surprised. It was a first in my two years at CAP.
Is this common at CAP meetings?
I am concerned that this will drive new members away.
It is NOT common place at typical squadron meetings.
It's bad enough we have to endure the prayers at Wing Conferences and the like (the Chaplain really has a challenge to not interject his or her religious beliefs into the prayer -- How about just trying this -- now ladies & gentlemen lets have a moment of silence for personal reflection ) >:D.
For the sake of argument -- There's no regulation that says an atheist can't join Civil Air Patrol. It is possible that most senior members of a squadron are atheist or just don't really have an interest in any formal religion.
CAP moral leadership program is NOT about religion anyways. That whole portion the program has gotten members jumping through hoops to provide "official" transcripts, get letters from clergy,etc. IF a member doesn't volunteer as the MLO because of the hoop jumping invented at National Hq to prove they are "worthy", than the Commander has to perform the function, and he could be a retired truck driver with absolutely no education. Sheer silliness. :angel:
Lets be sure that we keep our priorities straight: Aerospace Education, Cadet Program, & Emergency Services. It doesn't mean a formal prayer that our members must endure every week at our meetings. That is wrong & you should talk with your commander about it and if that fails put in an IG complaint. It looks likes one of your members has gone over the edge on this!
RM
It would be my preference not to have any religious functions within CAP, but since we do and since it has been an established part of the program for so long, I don't have much heartburn about it. I wouldn't go out of my way to find someone to lead the unit in a opening prayer, but if someone wanted to lead one, I'd let them (when I was a squadron commander).
We do the Pledge, Cadet Oath (for cadets of course) and the "moment of silence" to begin meetings. Its respectful and inclusive...invites participation and unity, but makes no "call" on denomiational or other religious conviction.
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on April 14, 2010, 03:02:36 AM
Quote from: simon on April 13, 2010, 07:53:33 AM
Our squadron meeting tonight commenced with the new deputy commander asking us to "Please, bow your heads" and saying a prayer to "Our father".
I was surprised. It was a first in my two years at CAP.
Is this common at CAP meetings?
I am concerned that this will drive new members away.
It is NOT common place at typical squadron meetings.
It's bad enough we have to endure the prayers at Wing Conferences and the like
"Endure?"
Wow.
Yes, endure. For people who are non-religious, sitting through religious ceremonies, even simple things like invocations/benedictions, can be uncomfortable.
And, given the length of some of the invocations/benedictions I've sat through, even the religious people in the crowd would use the word "endure". :)
Dan,
I think the word "endure" has a negative annotation to it. I'm not really sure there is "nice" way to put it.
The moral leadership program is an very important part of the program. The values it teaches are invaluable. Especially in these days where our young adults are getting less caring about others and more importantly themselves.
I respect your first amendment right to say and believe what you want because I truly believe in that right but I will never agree with you.
Quote from: sarflyer on April 14, 2010, 01:24:30 PM
Dan,
I think the word "endure" has a negative annotation to it. I'm not really sure there is "nice" way to put it.
The moral leadership program is an very important part of the program. The values it teaches are invaluable. Especially in these days where our young adults are getting less caring about others and more importantly themselves.
I respect your first amendment right to say and believe what you want because I truly believe in that right but I will never agree with you.
Character development as it's now called has zip to do with religion nor should it have. I consider religion to be a very personal thing. I keep my beliefs to myself and I appreciate it when others do the same. I don't much care what religion you associate with or don't associate with in the case of atheists.
Enduring would be the proper term. If you feel the need to have a prayer that is your right to free exercise but I ask that you do it somewhere else as my right to free exercise means I don't have to have anything to do with your exercising of religious rights. I would not take offense if you asked me to join you but I would most likely decline.
A prayer before a dinner or banquet is one thing but to open every meeting with one is going a bit too far in my opinion.
My own personal preference would be to have no religious activities within CAP. We're in the body saving business, not the soul saving business (and yes, cadets and aerospace education too). Government and religion is an uneasy relationship.
But having said that, our Chaplin program is a well established and an important part of our program that serves the very useful purpose of counseling people during a terrible time in their life and assisting our own members (and as I have read elsewhere here on CT, even USAF personnel). The Chaplins I've met in our squadron and wing are absolutely wonderful people and are respectful of others' beliefs and non-beliefs. I think they provide a very good service to the public and our members.
Respect is the key. I need to respect the beliefs of my more religious colleagues. And they need to respect my beliefs or non-beliefs. (Full disclosure: I am an agnostic and Buddhist. I view Buddhism as a philosophy and not a religion. Obviously, many Buddhists view it as a religion. It is one of our ongoing debates. :))
My squadron doesn't do an invocation before the start of meetings but we do prayers during formal dinners. I would be uncomfortable with an invocation but if short and sweet and inclusive, I'd live with it. A moment of silence would be a better way to go if we had to do anything. We try to steer away from religious discussions as we have, um, er, a wide variety of beliefs and non-beliefs in our squadron and arguing about religion only hurts peoples' feelings and gets in the way of doing our missions. I've had some short but ugly discussions about Muslims with some of our members that only served to tick me off. (I've spent time in the Middle East and have several Arab-American friends and clients, both Christian and Muslim, so it can be a touchy subject.)
Anyway, as Buckaroo Banzai said, "Hey, hey, hey, hey-now. Don't be mean; we don't have to be mean, cuz, remember, no matter where you go, there you are. " So don't be mean and respect your fellow CAP members' beliefs and non-beliefs.
Quote from: dwb on April 14, 2010, 12:46:36 PM
Yes, endure. For people who are non-religious, sitting through religious ceremonies, even simple things like invocations/benedictions, can be uncomfortable.
And, given the length of some of the invocations/benedictions I've sat through, even the religious people in the crowd would use the word "endure". :)
Just out of curiosity, do you get physical burns from Holy water? >:D
Major Lord
WIWAC, our unit chaplain was a pretty solid Baptist minister who (IMHO) fairly heavily proselytized to the unit. I still think he's a fantastic chaplain and learned to filter out his "before and after" sermonizing. No biggie.
Of course, it was during one of his ML sessions that I learned what an "agnostic" is, and why I am one :)
WRT the pledge at meetings: I once got dinged on an IG inspection because my cadets did not recite the pledge at opening formation. I informed the IG (quite professionally) that the pledge was not customarily said in formation while in uniform. (Besides, there is no place in the regulations that suggests that's a required activity, so I asked him quite point-blank: why are you breaking our shoes over this?)
He went on to do his usual spiel about having been a cadet in the 1950s and all this. And I said "And that still does nothing about why you want me to go against the customary rules of the military as it pertains the the pledge in formation." Then he dropped my favorite bomb: "Its in the regulations."
I dropped all 5 lbs of the "Book of Maxwell" on the table in front of him, said "here's our up-to-date reg set. Please show me the requirement to say the pledge at the beginning of each meeting.."
He was unable.
During four years in the active Air Force, four years at a private military school, and two years in college ROTC, I never once recited the Pledge. To me, the Pledge is a civilian activity and a bit out of place in a military-style cadet program. I think the CAP cadet program should embrace its AF heritage and to me, the Pledge does not accomplish this. YMMV of course.
Prayer in my unit came about to give the Chaplain something to do during the meeting. It's always felt a little odd to hear talk about Jesus at a CAP meeting. I imagine it would be a bit like my pastor talking about O-rides and SAREXs from the pulpit on Sunday.
Quote from: NIN on April 14, 2010, 03:11:49 PMI dropped all 5 lbs of the "Book of Maxwell" on the table in front of him, said "here's our up-to-date reg set. Please show me the requirement to say the pledge at the beginning of each meeting.."
"Book of Maxwell". I like that, mind if I borrow it?
Quote from: NIN on April 14, 2010, 03:11:49 PM
He was unable.
Most of the ones that claim that, usually can't. It's surprising how often you can actually safely assume that someone is absolutely wrong when they make the statement.
The ones that know what they're talking about say "It's in CAPR 00-0, Chapter X" (and sometimes go so far as sub para and line), or else they say "Let me check something real quick, I think I know where to find it".
I think we'd have a publications set larger than the Library of Congress if everything that someone ever said was in the regs, actually was.
I had an e-group mailing a few years back that had an article on "how to tell if you have a redneck SAR group" or words to that effect. One of the ways was " You overhear your Chaplain talking to critical incident survivors about hell" ! I wish I could find it again.
You guys are really atheists? Swear to god?
Major Lord
Personally, I'm a Pastafarian.
Ramen.
>:D
Quote from: Dracosbane on April 14, 2010, 10:30:39 PM
Personally, I'm a Pastafarian.
Ramen.
>:D
Have you been touched by his noodlie goodness?
Quote
You guys are really atheists? Swear to god?
Major Lord
Lord help us! :angel:
Quote from: Hawk200 on April 14, 2010, 04:07:12 PM
The ones that know what they're talking about say "It's in CAPR 00-0, Chapter X" (and sometimes go so far as sub para and line)
Yeah ... and I catch hell for that one quite a bit. Ask Stonewall.
Well if I want to listen to a prayer I can go to church...
While I'm there I can watch everyone fight whether the choir should wear robes or not.
Just another variation of CAPtalk..
Todd,
Before I say this I'm not trying to pick a fight so don't take it that way.
You are absolutely wrong!
We are in the soul saving business in the cadet program. I am on my third squadron command and I will tell you that the primary focus of my units has always been on saving kids who would have otherwise gone on to be very unproductive members of society.
The cadet program boiled down is to mold a 12 year old into a respectful, mature and successful adult. And then give him opportunities to make decisions on what he might what to do with his life. Character development is a very important part of that. The Chaplain program are the best qualified people to do that program.
On top of that we are also in the body saving and aerospace educating business. The organization would not survive without cadets.
We are all pussy footing around the subject. The bottom line is we all have a right to believe the way we wish too. If you don't want to be exposed to prayer in a CAP unit then join a unit that doesn't use or find another volunteer program to contribute too. We are a country founded on the principal, "In God We Trust" and the latest stats are that 85% of American's believe in God. If it really bothers you that much then move on.
That's my belief system.
Quote from: sarflyer on April 15, 2010, 12:49:13 PM
Todd,
Before I say this I'm not trying to pick a fight so don't take it that way.
You are absolutely wrong!
We are in the soul saving business in the cadet program. I am on my third squadron command and I will tell you that the primary focus of my units has always been on saving kids who would have otherwise gone on to be very unproductive members of society.
The cadet program boiled down is to mold a 12 year old into a respectful, mature and successful adult. And then give him opportunities to make decisions on what he might what to do with his life. Character development is a very important part of that. The Chaplain program are the best qualified people to do that program.
On top of that we are also in the body saving and aerospace educating business. The organization would not survive without cadets.
We are all pussy footing around the subject. The bottom line is we all have a right to believe the way we wish too. If you don't want to be exposed to prayer in a CAP unit then join a unit that doesn't use or find another volunteer program to contribute too. We are a country founded on the principal, "In God We Trust" and the latest stats are that 85% of American's believe in God. If it really bothers you that much then move on.
That's my belief system.
Again CD has zilch to do with religion. I can name a lot of "religious" people with no morals or character. I can name a few atheists that are the most upstanding people you'll ever meet. I can name dozens of immoral acts commited by religion and/or in the name of religion or god.
This is a secular organization not a religious one. You have no right to force your beliefs on another which is what you are saying. I'm not saying you can't believe what you want or do what you want on your own time, but once you hit the meeting time I should not be forced to have anything to do with your beliefs. Prayer and religion have a very minor role in CAP.
Quote from: sarflyer on April 15, 2010, 12:49:13 PM
We are a country founded on the principal, "In God We Trust" and the latest stats are that 85% of American's believe in God. If it really bothers you that much then move on.
That's my belief system.
Actually we're a nation founded on the principal "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" ... The word God, creator, or reference to any other deity doesn't make it's way anywhere into the Constitution. While they're in the Declaration of Independence, and I respect the importance of that document, it has no legal foundation for our system of government.
"In God We Trust" didn't make it's way into our government officially until the 1950s, when we had to prove to those atheist commies that we were better than them because we had God on our side.
As for the 85% number you're quoting, respectfully Sir, which God are you referring to? The Christian God? The Jewish God? The Muslim God? The (Insert one of hundreds) God?
You can have any opinion you want, but you can't have your own facts. That's
my belief system.
My $0.02...
I'm not a religious person, probably pretty close to agnostic. I had enough religion crammed down my throat as a kid to pretty much turn me off on all organized religions. However, most of my squadron members here in the "Bible belt" are at least nominally religious. We have a chaplain who is a very nice guy who I'm proud to have in my squadron and as a friend. It does me no harm to stand quietly with my head bowed for 30-45 seconds while the chaplain asks for a general blessing of our activities. If anyone objects, they are free to leave the room, or just stand quietly and respect the others' beliefs as I do. If it makes the chaplain feel that he is doing his part, and makes the other members of the squadron feel better or safer in their activities to have the chaplain give an invocation; then I have done my job as a commander in seeing to the overall welfare of my command.
JMHO, YMMV, void where prohibited, etc.
Quote from: Marshalus on April 15, 2010, 01:57:33 PM
Quote from: sarflyer on April 15, 2010, 12:49:13 PM
We are a country founded on the principal, "In God We Trust" and the latest stats are that 85% of American's believe in God. If it really bothers you that much then move on.
That's my belief system.
Actually we're a nation founded on the principal "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" ... The word God, creator, or reference to any other deity doesn't make it's way anywhere into the Constitution. While they're in the Declaration of Independence, and I respect the importance of that document, it has no legal foundation for our system of government.
"In God We Trust" didn't make it's way into our government officially until the 1950s, when we had to prove to those atheist commies that we were better than them because we had God on our side.
As for the 85% number you're quoting, respectfully Sir, which God are you referring to? The Christian God? The Jewish God? The Muslim God? The (Insert one of hundreds) God?
You can have any opinion you want, but you can't have your own facts. That's my belief system.
You have it a bit backwards. The Declaration states our foundation for establishing the Corporation of the United States, and declares that our unalienable rights are granted by the "creator" ( God or Nature, in the sense of the founding fathers) Absent a creator, the Natural Rights of Man do not exist, and the rights we enjoy are granted solely by Government. A view widely held by Marxists.
The 1st Amendment to the Constitution had the effect of binding Congress' hands ( chains they broke quite easily) to prevent them from creating a State Religion. (Another phrase not appearing in the Constitution is "separation of Church and State", although this was in the old Soviet Constitution) and the Bill of Rights was not created until March 4th, 1789, quite some time after the acceptance of the initial foundational laws. Congress now considers the Constitution to consist of a set of guidelines, rather than a binding set of laws. I am afraid that the Constitution is written in language so clear, that only a lawyer could misunderstand it.....
I also agree that I don't want any CAP mandatory prayer or religious practices, but I respect the rights of the individual here to practice them as they please, right up until the time they interfere with my rights. Islam requires its members to convert, subjugate, or kill unbelievers for instance, a practice I will take a firm moral stand against......
Major Lord
Oh boy....
Ok, I think we have answered the original poster's question. It might be best to turn our attention to something less controversial...I know...let's talk about uniforms!!! ;D
Quote from: sarflyer on April 15, 2010, 12:49:13 PM
Todd,
Before I say this I'm not trying to pick a fight so don't take it that way.
You are absolutely wrong!
We are in the soul saving business in the cadet program. I am on my third squadron command and I will tell you that the primary focus of my units has always been on saving kids who would have otherwise gone on to be very unproductive members of society.
The cadet program boiled down is to mold a 12 year old into a respectful, mature and successful adult. And then give him opportunities to make decisions on what he might what to do with his life. Character development is a very important part of that. The Chaplain program are the best qualified people to do that program.
On top of that we are also in the body saving and aerospace educating business. The organization would not survive without cadets.
We are all pussy footing around the subject. The bottom line is we all have a right to believe the way we wish too. If you don't want to be exposed to prayer in a CAP unit then join a unit that doesn't use or find another volunteer program to contribute too. We are a country founded on the principal, "In God We Trust" and the latest stats are that 85% of American's believe in God. If it really bothers you that much then move on.
That's my belief system.
SAR:
I think you may have misread my earlier post or I wasn't clear enough in my writing. While I myself do not think religion should have any part of our organization, it does. And it will. And I accept that. And I understand the role of our Chaplains. None of these are deal breakers for me. I greatly enjoy being a CAP member and believe our organization does a lot of good for a lot of people.
And I agree with you that the cadet program is important because we do "save" a number of kids. While I am not much involved directly in our cadet programming, I have taken a couple Cadets under my wing to train and mentor them. But CAP "saves" them by giving them the tools of discipline, achievement, education, role models, and good decision making. I don't think it is about converting them to Christianity or any other religion.
The USAF is an organization filled with people of different ethnicities and religious beliefs. So is the CAP. We reflect the diversity of America. We don't care what color or religion a person is when we go out and try and find them. We have to all practice tolerance and respect.
And as to comment about the Muslims killing non-believers from another commenter, that's just wrong. While some radical Muslims might feel that way, most Muslims respect and in fact embrace most of what Jews and Christians believe. The three religions are "people of the book." Jesus, Moses, and Mary are also prophets, along with Mohammed. I have known many Muslims and have never, ever been approached to convert or been denounced for being a non-Muslim or non-believer.
Kids, I think we've crossed a line. Never discuss politics, religion, or another person's spouse in polite company. You're just asking for trouble. 8)
Quote from: Major Lord on April 15, 2010, 02:56:15 PM
Islam requires its members to convert, subjugate, or kill unbelievers for instance, a practice I will take a firm moral stand against......
Wow, I guess I better watch my back when I'm around my Muslim friends. ::)
Quote from: Marshalus on April 15, 2010, 04:06:40 PM
Quote from: Major Lord on April 15, 2010, 02:56:15 PM
Islam requires its members to convert, subjugate, or kill unbelievers for instance, a practice I will take a firm moral stand against......
Wow, I guess I better watch my back when I'm around my Muslim friends. ::)
I do believe the Majors tongue is planted firmly in cheek.
The problem for me, from the original post, is that it seemed the prayer was said in formation. You don't really have the option to leave then, do you?
The padre's do good work, and althrough I'm not religious, I more then once have found myself talking to the hospital reverend or another commands chaplin. They're an invaluable assest to the emergency service.
The situation in the OP seems to be a case of an officer trying to carry on th duties of a dear friend. While the sprite is in the right place, the execution may be poorly done.
Part of the problem is, with the political correctness of our times, we deny the truth. Truth is that almost all Christian religions request their members to spread the Truth. Evangelize is a duty to many. I have also read a poll noting that 85% of Americans consider themselves to be Christians.. Therefore, must the 15% scream tolerance of their non-beliefs while quieting the 85%?? Political correctness has about run it's course in this country and I predict we will see the tide turn shortly.. A well known Jew recently said that if it weren't for the tolerance of the Christians, there would be no Jews left anywhere. Christianity's tolerance for others has been considered a weakness to some. If one would like to see where morality is without a God, one should watch the movie "Time Changers" to get an idea. Morality didn't spring from the waters, it came from something bigger and better than each of us. To try to have morality without admitting so is basically impossible. We just don't have it inside of us to reach that level without the faith in something larger.. JMHO, flame suit on.. man the guns and [darn] the torpedoes..
Don't take this the wrong way, but just because "85%" of Americans believe in God doesn't make them evangelical Christians. I don't know what I believe in, and it doesn't affect my daily life one bit. I go, I go my job, I try to be a good person, and if that's not 'enough,' then so be it.
Quote from: AirAux on April 15, 2010, 05:54:02 PMTherefore, must the 15% scream tolerance of their non-beliefs while quieting the 85%??
Yes. That's kinda the point of the constitution...
Quote from: AirAux on April 15, 2010, 05:54:02 PMPolitical correctness has about run it's course in this country and I predict we will see the tide turn shortly.
I predict you are incorrect.
Quote from: AirAux on April 15, 2010, 05:54:02 PM
If one would like to see where morality is without a God, one should watch the movie "Time Changers" to get an idea. Morality didn't spring from the waters, it came from something bigger and better than each of us. To try to have morality without admitting so is basically impossible.
While I have learned much from the collective works of Tarentino, Rodriquez, Landis, and even Hughs, I tend to try and base my personal beliefs regarding religion and morality on non-fiction works. Also, there are many among the atheist and agnostic communities who argue quite convincingly that religion is simple a manifestation of man's inability to accept mortality and the "morality", at its core, is simple "do unto other or they will do unto you"(i.e. simple survival in a group dynamic), and without that basic survival skill, structured society, even on its most basic level, would not be possible.
I'm also guessing that this thread, while on the edge to start, is quickly slipping into a violation of the TOS.
Quote from: Eclipse on April 15, 2010, 06:36:30 PM
Quote from: AirAux on April 15, 2010, 05:54:02 PMTherefore, must the 15% scream tolerance of their non-beliefs while quieting the 85%??
Yes. That's kinda the point of the constitution...
I don't agree with that. The constitution is not about quieting anyone. It's about letting all points of view be heard.
Now, as far a prayers in CAP, I don't think there is anything wrong with them, but members should have the opportunity to not participate.
Quote from: AirAux on April 15, 2010, 05:54:02 PM
Part of the problem is, with the political correctness of our times, we deny the truth. Truth is that almost all Christian religions request their members to spread the Truth. Evangelize is a duty to many. I have also read a poll noting that 85% of Americans consider themselves to be Christians.. Therefore, must the 15% scream tolerance of their non-beliefs while quieting the 85%?? Political correctness has about run it's course in this country and I predict we will see the tide turn shortly.. A well known Jew recently said that if it weren't for the tolerance of the Christians, there would be no Jews left anywhere. Christianity's tolerance for others has been considered a weakness to some. If one would like to see where morality is without a God, one should watch the movie "Time Changers" to get an idea. Morality didn't spring from the waters, it came from something bigger and better than each of us. To try to have morality without admitting so is basically impossible. We just don't have it inside of us to reach that level without the faith in something larger.. JMHO, flame suit on.. man the guns and [darn] the torpedoes..
Good grief.
As was said before...
CAP is NOT church! Do not confuse the two.
Quote from: davedove on April 15, 2010, 06:45:08 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on April 15, 2010, 06:36:30 PM
Quote from: AirAux on April 15, 2010, 05:54:02 PMTherefore, must the 15% scream tolerance of their non-beliefs while quieting the 85%??
Yes. That's kinda the point of the constitution...
I don't agree with that. The constitution is not about quieting anyone. It's about letting all points of view be heard.
I think freedom
from religion is as much a subtext of the 14th Amendment as
of religion.
Though depending upon the jurisdiction, the courts have not always agreed with me on that.
Sweet Jesus Christo!!!
Now we are worried about prayer and invocation in CAP
All fine and dandy. What are the real missions of CAP?
What are the missions of the Chaplain....non denominational morale and moral support to ALLLLL demoninations
Let it go ...go to church / prayer on your own
Prayer and religion ought to a personal thing.....not at a CAP meeting and maybe a little invocation at a SAREX or major events
If CAP is receiving State and Federal funds....then religion is OUT...SUre Sure what ever CAP wants...pull the non profit or "corporate" card.
Again maybe this one for the Region and Wing kings to see how this is meted out
What are CAPTalkers saying if we are not religious in CAP, are we the sinners who do not "BELIEVE?"
Wow CAP meeting are short enough already.....the Pledge of Allegiance will do fine, thank you to the "BELIEVERS!!!"
CAPTalk....where everything is on a personal slippery slope and now religion and invocations can be stressed as part of already soup sandwich in CAP!!
Open prayer at church folks unless you got one of those TELEvangelists writing checks to CAP to buy equipment...there is already enough of those guys supporting 3 or 4 aircraft in their "places of worship." Go find out for yourselves!!
Hey, how about that recent ICL about the corporate dress uniform? (As the lawyer tries to change the topic to something slightly less incendiary.) :P
Today in the U.S. House of Representatives:
Quote10:01 A.M. -
Today's prayer was offered by Rev. Dr. Clyde Mighells, Lighthouse Reformed Church, Howard, Pennsylvania
I really don't see any reason not to open CAP meetings with a prayer if the U.S. House of Representatives opens their meetings with a prayer.
Quote from: bte on April 15, 2010, 08:17:51 PM
Today in the U.S. House of Representatives:
Quote10:01 A.M. -
Today's prayer was offered by Rev. Dr. Clyde Mighells, Lighthouse Reformed Church, Howard, Pennsylvania
I really don't see any reason not to open CAP meetings with a prayer if the U.S. House of Representatives opens their meetings with a prayer.
Probably because at 10:00 A.M. they called their lunch break >:D
Quote from: bte on April 15, 2010, 08:17:51 PM
Today in the U.S. House of Representatives:
Quote10:01 A.M. -
Today's prayer was offered by Rev. Dr. Clyde Mighells, Lighthouse Reformed Church, Howard, Pennsylvania
I really don't see any reason not to open CAP meetings with a prayer if the U.S. House of Representatives opens their meetings with a prayer.
Okay....as I said before.....I am an atheist.
I respect that the majority does not beleive what I do.
I respect everyone's right toe worship (or not) as they see fit.
I have seen lots of meetings and events start with prayers.
BUT.....(you all saw that but comming :))
Is it really right?
CAP is about serving our nation, state and community. It is about getting the mission (CP, AE, ES) done.
Is it really violating anyone's relgion if we just did not do an opening prayer?
As I said before....I don't get rilled up about a little prayer before a meeting....but I do have a philosophical objection to injecting relgion into every aspect of life.
I don't like "Under God" in the pledge.
I don't like "In God we trust".
I don't like that congress and other parts of our government start buisness with a prayer.
I'm not going quit CAP over it.....but it is not really right.
Our society beleives in the idea of absolute personal freedom....(yes we don't have that...but it is the idea of it).
Asking someone not to inject religion into somewhere it does not need to be is not really violating anyones religious beleifs.
This is not poltical correctness...it is about respect.
As I said before....I don't really have any time for chaplains in CAP or AD for that matter. I respect them for their beleifs and their caring for other people and their calling to their god.
But I don't really want to hear it. I want to serve my unit. I want to mentor my cadets. I want to train them and myself to be ready to answer the call when our community needs our services.
If I got to put up with a 5 minute prayer to get there...so be it....but I don't have to like it.
From a simple recruiting/retention issue.
We can't raise the price of anything with out someone yelling that it will affect our numbers. We can't enforce "higher" standards with our someone yelling about how it will gut the squadrons. We can't discuss uniforms with our someone saying "but how will that affect retention".
If we loose or never gain someone simply because they feel uncomfortable comming to our meetings due to prayers....we need to seriously look at that.
This is not just a CAP problem.
AD USAF has these problems too.
There......I did that whole thing with our calling anyone a fecal egress port or anything. :D
Quote from: lordmonar on April 15, 2010, 08:41:09 PM
Quote from: bte on April 15, 2010, 08:17:51 PM
Today in the U.S. House of Representatives:
Quote10:01 A.M. -
Today's prayer was offered by Rev. Dr. Clyde Mighells, Lighthouse Reformed Church, Howard, Pennsylvania
I really don't see any reason not to open CAP meetings with a prayer if the U.S. House of Representatives opens their meetings with a prayer.
Okay....as I said before.....I am an atheist.
I respect that the majority does not beleive what I do.
I respect everyone's right toe worship (or not) as they see fit.
I have seen lots of meetings and events start with prayers.
BUT.....(you all saw that but comming :) )
Is it really right?
CAP is about serving our nation, state and community. It is about getting the mission (CP, AE, ES) done.
Is it really violating anyone's relgion if we just did not do an opening prayer?
As I said before....I don't get rilled up about a little prayer before a meeting....but I do have a philosophical objection to injecting relgion into every aspect of life.
I don't like "Under God" in the pledge.
I don't like "In God we trust".
I don't like that congress and other parts of our government start buisness with a prayer.
I'm not going quit CAP over it.....but it is not really right.
Our society beleives in the idea of absolute personal freedom....(yes we don't have that...but it is the idea of it).
Asking someone not to inject religion into somewhere it does not need to be is not really violating anyones religious beleifs.
This is not poltical correctness...it is about respect.
As I said before....I don't really have any time for chaplains in CAP or AD for that matter. I respect them for their beleifs and their caring for other people and their calling to their god.
But I don't really want to hear it. I want to serve my unit. I want to mentor my cadets. I want to train them and myself to be ready to answer the call when our community needs our services.
If I got to put up with a 5 minute prayer to get there...so be it....but I don't have to like it.
From a simple recruiting/retention issue.
We can't raise the price of anything with out someone yelling that it will affect our numbers. We can't enforce "higher" standards with our someone yelling about how it will gut the squadrons. We can't discuss uniforms with our someone saying "but how will that affect retention".
If we loose or never gain someone simply because they feel uncomfortable comming to our meetings due to prayers....we need to seriously look at that.
This is not just a CAP problem.
AD USAF has these problems too.
There......I did that whole thing with our calling anyone a fecal egress port or anything. :D
That boys and girls was a well thought out and nicely stated post by one of those moral and upstanding heathen atheists ;) I told ya'll about. :clap:
Quote from: davidsinn on April 15, 2010, 09:15:04 PMThat boys and girls was a well thought out and nicely stated post by one of those moral and upstanding heathen atheists ;) I told ya'll about. :clap:
Well....to be truthful....I was sitting down at the time! :o
I will offer that many units meet at Churches, so until the agnostics and atheists can afford to furnish our digs, we are kinda destined to dance with the one that brung us. And believe it or not, I feel it is my duty as a Christian to at least allow the cadets to be introduced to God in some fashion. And for you non-believers, don't get your panties in a wad, because it ain't hurting nothin since you don't believe in the first place. The world survived for a long time with everyone believing it was flat.. So allow us our dalliances and may your God be there to comfort you when you need it..
Quote from: lordmonar on April 15, 2010, 08:41:09 PM
...but I do have a philosophical objection to injecting religion into every aspect of life...
Just to point out, religion is a belief system that you are supposed to integrate into every aspect of your life. Those beliefs to those who believe them don't change because they walked through a certain door.
If my religion says, "Thou shalt not steal" I'm supposed to integrate that philosophy into my whole life.
The question becomes are those that pray before a meeting somehow infringe on your rights by doing so or is your right to not pray infringing on their right to?
Quote from: AirAux on April 15, 2010, 09:31:01 PM
I will offer that many units meet at Churches, so until the agnostics and atheists can afford to furnish our digs, we are kinda destined to dance with the one that brung us. And believe it or not, I feel it is my duty as a Christian to at least allow the cadets to be introduced to God in some fashion. And for you non-believers, don't get your panties in a wad, because it ain't hurting nothin since you don't believe in the first place. The world survived for a long time with everyone believing it was flat.. So allow us our dalliances and may your God be there to comfort you when you need it..
It ain't hurting me, but what about the cadet to whom you feel it us your duty to introduce God (possibily against parents wishes) too?
Those may very well be the cadets that need it the most. Or if they are strong in their non-believe, no harm done.. After all, the force is either strong with you or not, Padawa (spelling so wrong..)
Quote from: AirAux on April 15, 2010, 09:51:37 PM
Those may very well be the cadets that need it the most. Or if they are strong in their non-believe, no harm done.. After all, the force is either strong with you or not, Padawa (spelling so wrong..)
We don't need anything. And you don't seem to know anything.
We come to seniors for leadership. Not Faith. Do not betray our trust by attempted conversion.
Quote from: AirAux on April 15, 2010, 09:31:01 PM
And believe it or not, I feel it is my duty as a Christian to at least allow the cadets to be introduced to God in some fashion.
I'm having fun imaging the heart attack I'd give the SJA/EO offices if I said that in the RM.
Quote from: jimmydeanno on April 15, 2010, 09:43:27 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on April 15, 2010, 08:41:09 PM
...but I do have a philosophical objection to injecting religion into every aspect of life...
Just to point out, religion is a belief system that you are supposed to integrate into every aspect of your life. Those beliefs to those who believe them don't change because they walked through a certain door.
If my religion says, "Thou shalt not steal" I'm supposed to integrate that philosophy into my whole life.
The question becomes are those that pray before a meeting somehow infringe on your rights by doing so or is your right to not pray infringing on their right to?
I understand what you are saying....I said INJECT not integrate.
I got no problem with anyone giving thanks and asking for their god's blessing on their daily endeavors.....but does that require you to stand in front of the class and and force everyone to "bow your heads".
I know there is not an absolute right of freedom from annoyance......some religions just like some speech and some political ideas annoy me.....but I got to put up with that to enjoy my right to speech, religion and political thought.
But again it comes down to respect......CAP is not about religion....just like my job is not about religion. I don't think many people would respond well if I started your church service by requiring and open ranks inspection.....so why must my open ranks inspection begin with a church service? ;D
If your faith requires you to say a prayer out loud before you begin any meeting then so be it....I will make that accommodation....but we as members of a community try to respect our neighbors. Just as we would expect someone to hold down their noise....even thought it is their right to make it....we are not asking too much from the faithful to keep down their religious observances.
As for the "well we meet in their church...it's a price we got to pay"....I got to call the BS flag on that one!
We have to respect them...and I do...but they can't use the lure of a facility as a chance to gain converts....that would be just wrong and a violation of the intent of 36-1.
I respect that some believers feel it is their duty to "bring to word of god to the heathens".....but you can do that on your own time.....it is most certainly NOT part of the CAP program.
We got enough to do just getting through the program as printed in 52-16 we don't need to add to our problems.
Quote from: AirAux on April 15, 2010, 09:31:01 PM
I will offer that many units meet at Churches, so until the agnostics and atheists can afford to furnish our digs, we are kinda destined to dance with the one that brung us. And believe it or not, I feel it is my duty as a Christian to at least allow the cadets to be introduced to God in some fashion. And for you non-believers, don't get your panties in a wad, because it ain't hurting nothin since you don't believe in the first place. The world survived for a long time with everyone believing it was flat.. So allow us our dalliances and may your God be there to comfort you when you need it..
I guess I would have to wonder how many potential members didn't join units because CAP meetings are held at relgious facilities (and this implies some sort of sponsorship of that religion of the CAP unit) , were perhaps a better place to meet would be at schools, fire stations, community centers, national guard armories, reserve training centers, or even at an airport FBO!!!
Wings should really take a hard look at this and try to help units meet at non-religion facilities.
As far as cadets & religion, I'd be careful in that area, because it is not CAP's duty as an organization to be talking religion to anyone >:(
RM
Quote from: AirAux on April 15, 2010, 09:31:01 PM
I will offer that many units meet at Churches, so until the agnostics and atheists can afford to furnish our digs, we are kinda destined to dance with the one that brung us. And believe it or not, I feel it is my duty as a Christian to at least allow the cadets to be introduced to God in some fashion. And for you non-believers, don't get your panties in a wad, because it ain't hurting nothin since you don't believe in the first place. The world survived for a long time with everyone believing it was flat.. So allow us our dalliances and may your God be there to comfort you when you need it..
Congratulations. You are now the poster child for exactly why this shouldn't be done.
Quote from: jimmydeanno on April 15, 2010, 09:43:27 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on April 15, 2010, 08:41:09 PM
...but I do have a philosophical objection to injecting religion into every aspect of life...
Just to point out, religion is a belief system that you are supposed to integrate into every aspect of your life. Those beliefs to those who believe them don't change because they walked through a certain door.
If my religion says, "Thou shalt not steal" I'm supposed to integrate that philosophy into my whole life.
The question becomes are those that pray before a meeting somehow infringe on your rights by doing so or is your right to not pray infringing on their right to?
Does your religion require you to lead others in a group prayer prior to every activity/action you take part in?
Either way, that's beside the point. CAP is not a religious organization. I don't go to church to learn about search and rescue or aerospace. Likewise, no one should come to CAP to have religion bestowed upon them.
Quote from: AirAux on April 15, 2010, 09:51:37 PM
Those may very well be the cadets that need it the most. Or if they are strong in their non-believe, no harm done.. After all, the force is either strong with you or not, Padawa (spelling so wrong..)
Then you need to excuse yourself from interaction in cadet activities because that is not an objective of our program.
Quote from: AirAux on April 15, 2010, 09:31:01 PM
And believe it or not, I feel it is my duty as a Christian to at least allow the cadets to be introduced to God in some fashion.
Alright, I was on my way out the door and didn't get to give full voice to my thoughts on this.
CAP is not a religious recruiting ground. There are plenty of places to do your "duty as a Christian", and the cadet program ain't it. If you can't accept that, then as A. said, you shouldn't be working with cadets.
If a cadet (or airman) comes to me and asks me about my religious beliefs, I'll be happy to talk it over with them. When I cross the line into unsolicited pressure towards a religion (or lack thereof), I'm failing as a mentor and a leader (not to mention opening a gigantic can of legal worms.)
Quote from: jimmydeanno on April 15, 2010, 09:43:27 PMThe question becomes are those that pray before a meeting somehow infringe on your rights by doing so or is your right to not pray infringing on their right to?
Nice when someone mentions the gander. Seems like the goose is always getting cooked.
Well, what a ridiculous topic to have taken to this point with out a reality check.
Religion is part of this nation, and, that being so...its free exercise should not be infringed Constitutionally. Establishment of religion is verboten, but how in the name of reality is giving a blessing in any form establishing a "religion?"
The 1st Amendment is not designed to be limiting of the religious aspect, in fact, in restricting an established church it is insuring that all persons have their own choice at a religion.
That said, there are a diverse number of persons in our communities and in CAP. For some reason, there is a preception that seems quite intolerant toward those differing beliefs? BOTH WAYS.
The fact that a person might br Protestant, Muslim, an athiest, Catholic or Jew does not diminish me in any way. If I am greeted with the blessing of "Shalom" from a Jewish friend, what in it should I be offended by it? If someone wants to light a candle for me or say a rosary, why would that be offensive?
If someone says "God Bless you?" how on earth it that an insult? In fact, I would think it would be a high honor. It points out that, no matter your internal personal beliefs about the existance of a diety, that person chose to see you through the highest level of their own existance. Simply tell them "thank you," and walk on. If you were offended by it...you are unjustified in being so and just respect/accept their well wishes and move on.
If you tell me you have no god but NATURE, what about that is so offensive? Should you want to pray next to me, out loud, in whisper or to yourself, how am I diminished? What does it matter to an Athiest that there is a God, or to a Believer that there isn't and why does knowing eachother's belief bother people?
How can we reconcile these above points? We seem to have an established chaplain's corps in CAP designed to meet religious needs as well as a counseling function.
The answer to the original question is simple an found in the "moment of silence." Those that wish true prayer may do so in their own hearts, those that want to reflect on their day or troops stationed overseas may do so and those that simply want to enjoy a respite from the hustle and bustle of the world can take a 45 second nap have at it.
Really...you would think that you people here just want something to hate each other about. I know some of you are at the edge of you seat waiting to comment negatively on some topic here...please, stand down.
Quote from: Major Carrales on April 16, 2010, 02:45:23 AM
The answer to the original question is simple an found in the "moment of silence." Those that wish true prayer may do so in their own hearts, those that want to reflect on their day or troops stationed overseas may do so and those that simply want to enjoy a respite from the hustle and bustle of the world can take a 45 second nap have at it.
Quite frankly, I've got to ask why even that is needed. I can think of no reason why the occassion of a CAP squadron meeting should have a moment of silence. Should any and all public gatherings have them? What I ask myself about anything that goes on at a CAP activity is "What is this doing for CAP?".
Quote from: A.Member on April 15, 2010, 11:38:01 PM
Does your religion require you to lead others in a group prayer prior to every activity/action you take part in?
Prayer is a basic tenant of most faiths. It is a way for the believer to clear their mind, gain perspective, motivation, and gain favour of their deity.
We make (reasonable) accommodations at encampments and other functions for members to practice their faith as they need to, whether that be a Muslim cadet having to leave portions of an activity to pray or wear a hijab in their uniform. I've also seen cadets who attend encampment at a later date because they are Orthodox Jews and aren't allowed to travel by car on certain days.
My point had nothing to do with what my religion requires, but that becoming a CAP member isn't going to change peoples basic tenants of their faith.
I also can't help but notice that if you are opposed to praying during those times, you aren't participating in the prayer - even if you are standing there. If you are standing there while everyone else is praying, thinking, "This is the stupidest thing ever, I can't wait for it to end..." you aren't participating.
Quote from: RiverAux on April 16, 2010, 02:59:16 AM
Quote from: Major Carrales on April 16, 2010, 02:45:23 AM
The answer to the original question is simple an found in the "moment of silence." Those that wish true prayer may do so in their own hearts, those that want to reflect on their day or troops stationed overseas may do so and those that simply want to enjoy a respite from the hustle and bustle of the world can take a 45 second nap have at it.
Quite frankly, I've got to ask why even that is needed. I can think of no reason why the occassion of a CAP squadron meeting should have a moment of silence. Should any and all public gatherings have them? What I ask myself about anything that goes on at a CAP activity is "What is this doing for CAP?".
I am thinking that, if there is to be anything most central to CAP, it is the members. Missions don't happen without members to see them through to fruition. You would likly force me then, to poll the membership about the continued practice of a moment of silence. Rest assured, it was done years back and the idea was deemed innovative in solving the issue of an invocation.
Since there is no prescribed meeting opening, I am sure that we have wide latitiude in that for just such purposes as this. I am also sure that some meetings across this land range from any of the following...
Strict Military Formations- Seniors and Cadets, maybe even just Seniors in some places
Radio/Television Show Meeting Format-
Corporate Meeting-
Civic Organization-
School Activity Style-
Old guys sitting around a table talking-
Regular Meetings don't occur in favor of meetings at the hangar and gathering around the Plane-
And CAPTALKERs will find some issue with everyone of these, demonize some, make trival points about the "nature of the organization" based on how they think is should be.
And so...after all that has been written...WHAT'S YOUR POINT?
Quote from: jimmydeanno on April 16, 2010, 03:41:48 AM
Prayer is a basic tenant of most faiths. It is a way for the believer to clear their mind, gain perspective, motivation, and gain favour of their deity.
Sure but does it require you to command the attention of others while you do so aloud?
Again, the issue is moot nonetheless because the objective of CAP is not to provide a prayer forum.
Is there really any need for it? Probably not. Is it a tradition? Yes. Do I really care? No.
I'm a deist. I don't care if other people choose to pray, I don't get offended if people mention God in my presence, I don't mind staying silent while the chaplain says a few nondenominational words. (In every RM ceremony I've attended, the chaplain invariably uses the deliberate phrase "I invite you to join me..." rather than "Please join me" to avoid the implication that you SHOULD be joining in.)
Quote from: A.Member on April 16, 2010, 03:52:00 AM
Sure but does it require you to command the attention of others while you do so aloud?
Not really, no more so than electing not to listen to people talking at normal voice at a restaurant or ignoring some public address system while at an airshow while your attention is one something else. So long as you do not distrub those who do want to listen to that public address sytem or do not interfer in the restaurant talker because you disagree with them. I guess its about, in that case, civility.
I don't know why this is a big issue here.
Quote from: Hawk200 on April 16, 2010, 02:08:09 AM
Quote from: jimmydeanno on April 15, 2010, 09:43:27 PMThe question becomes are those that pray before a meeting somehow infringe on your rights by doing so or is your right to not pray infringing on their right to?
Nice when someone mentions the gander. Seems like the goose is always getting cooked.
If I were to go to your church and asked you to refrain from praying....that would be very wrong.
If I were to go to your house and asked you to refrain from praying....that is very wrong.
But we are at CAP.
Checked the regs and saw nothing that said we have to pray. Prayer is not part of the CAP program. It is allowed by current regs.....but should it.
No one is saying you can't pray....we (those of us who object) just ask that you don't subject us to it. We came for the meeting/training/mission.
Imagine if I arrived at your church on Sunday Morning and asked everyone to sit through an ES briefing. That would be wrong (and boring :))because MY ES briefing has nothing to do with the business at hand at the church.
Quote from: lordmonar on April 16, 2010, 03:58:42 AM
Imagine if I arrived at your church on Sunday Morning and asked everyone to sit through and ES briefing. That would be wrong because MY ES briefing has nothing to do with the business at hand at the church.
Don't go to chuch much do you? Often times there are presentations from community and Civic Groups that have nothing to do with doctrine. One simply respects these presentations and presenters whether or not one is interested and allows them finish. Thus, the interested parties get the info, the others simply take it for what its worth.
Quote
The world survived for a long time with everyone believing it was flat.
And I suppose they also would have thought the Bernoulli Principle, which explains why our Cessna 182s can fly, was the devil's handiwork as well? :angel:
Quote from: tdepp on April 16, 2010, 04:16:55 AM
Quote
The world survived for a long time with everyone believing it was flat.
And I suppose they also would have thought the Bernoulli Principle, which explains why our Cessna 182s can fly, was the devil's handiwork as well? :angel:
I think we are really taking this too far...please stop.
This has gone pretty far afield.....
The Chaplain Corps has strict rules (NOT always followed, however) guiding our work. Prayer, like anything else a Chaplain does, is to meet a real need. It cannot be an "assumed" need, but a real need.
A Chaplain has the obligation to meet the need with a principle that "thou shall not create more problems in the process!!" Meaning, if there is a certain population that finds a group prayer at a CAP meeting is needed and helpful to the mission at hand, then that group should be allowed to pray...BUT, it cannot be mandatory, and no retaliation or negative judgement can be made of those who chose not to participate.
At the same time, if there is a group that is adamantly opposed, or offended by group prayer during a meeting, then that should be respected out of courtesy to those offended and accommodations for those who wish to pray together should be made outside the realm of an official meeting.
The first rule of chaplaincy is to recognize that CAP exists within a pluralistic society. There are all manner of faith groups and non-faith groups that are woven into the fabric of the nation and the Constitution, wisely, protects belief and unbelief. A Chaplain should never assume that everything he/she does or says is welcome by all in CAP. However, if needed by anyone, a Chaplain should be willing and able to offer themselves as agents of help, or if running counter to his or her endorsing faith group, find appropriate resources to help.
Proselytizing by a Chaplain in CAP runs counter to the CAP Chaplain Corps Code of Ethics and is grounds for 2b'ing a Chaplain.
Can we move on from this topic now?
QuoteMeaning, if there is a certain population that finds a group prayer at a CAP meeting is needed and helpful to the mission at hand, then that group should be allowed to pray...BUT, it cannot be mandatory, and no retaliation or negative judgement can be made of those who chose not to participate.
So that should mean that a member who did not want to participate should not be retaliated against for deciding to sit during a prayer or moment of silence since standing could/would be considered participating.
I'm sorry, but I couldn't let this one go by. Can't you all see that the minority view is winning through political correctness? I don't know of a Christian faith or a Bible that doesn't direct one to go forth and spread the news. Now, due to political correctness, a man of faith, a Chaplain no less, has been instructed not to spread the faith for fear of being 2b'd and thrown out of the program.. The atheist and agnostics have won, their non-beliefs are stronger and more important, and more controlling than the beliefs of the majority. It is hard to believe that a Chaplain would deny the strongest tenet of the faith, to spread the word to all. I seem to remember something in the Bible about the preachers being held to a higher standard when they get to heaven. Now I understand why.. How can God expect anyone to obey when his own preachers and priests lie down their most trusted responsibilities?? I am disappointed, but not surprised..
Quote from: AirAux on April 16, 2010, 12:26:39 PM
I'm sorry, but I couldn't let this one go by. Can't you all see that the minority view is winning through political correctness?
By definition, the opposition to an invocation (as expressed on this board) is not the "minority" view. It is by far the majority.
I don't agree with it, but I can see that most people here (the "majority") don't want an opening prayer.
Quote from: DogCollar on April 16, 2010, 11:27:23 AM
This has gone pretty far afield.....
The Chaplain Corps has strict rules (NOT always followed, however) guiding our work. Prayer, like anything else a Chaplain does, is to meet a real need. It cannot be an "assumed" need, but a real need.
A Chaplain has the obligation to meet the need with a principle that "thou shall not create more problems in the process!!" Meaning, if there is a certain population that finds a group prayer at a CAP meeting is needed and helpful to the mission at hand, then that group should be allowed to pray...BUT, it cannot be mandatory, and no retaliation or negative judgement can be made of those who chose not to participate.
At the same time, if there is a group that is adamantly opposed, or offended by group prayer during a meeting, then that should be respected out of courtesy to those offended and accommodations for those who wish to pray together should be made outside the realm of an official meeting.
The first rule of chaplaincy is to recognize that CAP exists within a pluralistic society. There are all manner of faith groups and non-faith groups that are woven into the fabric of the nation and the Constitution, wisely, protects belief and unbelief. A Chaplain should never assume that everything he/she does or says is welcome by all in CAP. However, if needed by anyone, a Chaplain should be willing and able to offer themselves as agents of help, or if running counter to his or her endorsing faith group, find appropriate resources to help.
Proselytizing by a Chaplain in CAP runs counter to the CAP Chaplain Corps Code of Ethics and is grounds for 2b'ing a Chaplain.
Can we move on from this topic now?
Well said. :clap:
You know, Todd is right, I just wrote a long response to all the comments. It's not worth it. I feel strongly about the cadet program and get a little miffed when it gets hit. I think I misunderstood and I apologize. Onto the next subject!
Quote from: AirAux on April 16, 2010, 12:26:39 PM
I'm sorry, but I couldn't let this one go by. Can't you all see that the minority view is winning through political correctness? I don't know of a Christian faith or a Bible that doesn't direct one to go forth and spread the news. Now, due to political correctness, a man of faith, a Chaplain no less, has been instructed not to spread the faith for fear of being 2b'd and thrown out of the program.. The atheist and agnostics have won, their non-beliefs are stronger and more important, and more controlling than the beliefs of the majority. It is hard to believe that a Chaplain would deny the strongest tenet of the faith, to spread the word to all. I seem to remember something in the Bible about the preachers being held to a higher standard when they get to heaven. Now I understand why.. How can God expect anyone to obey when his own preachers and priests lie down their most trusted responsibilities?? I am disappointed, but not surprised..
I am sorry for dissappointing you, but I am in no way worried about my station before the Almighty!!
I should add that Chaplains are not to be muzzeled if anyone approaches them and asks questions about faith. They are then allowed to express their opinions and beliefs on the subject.
I would argue that Chaplains "initiating" the conversation with persons who have expressed no openess to the content or the conversation is counterproductive to "spreading the Word."
I work full-time as a hospital chaplain. I have seen "chaplains" come from the outside, and preach AT patients that, instead, want to be listened too. They are not very effective ministers of the Word. When I listen first, and discover that a patient is asking fundamentally spiritual questions I will enter conversation. The same is true of my Pastoral Counseling in CAP. It starts with listening, and listening some more.
A wise man of faith once said "Preach always...use words only if you must." I use words only if they are invited by the hearer.
EDIT: These guidelines from the CAP Chaplain Corps are helpful. They are merely guidelines, however.
http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/Prayer_Guidelines_31BAEE2A053B1.pdf
Quote from: AirAux on April 16, 2010, 12:26:39 PM
The atheist and agnostics have won, their non-beliefs are stronger and more important, and more controlling than the beliefs of the majority.
Sweet! When is the party!?
Quote from: A.Member on April 16, 2010, 12:52:52 PM
Quote from: DogCollar on April 16, 2010, 11:27:23 AM
This has gone pretty far afield.....
The Chaplain Corps has strict rules (NOT always followed, however) guiding our work. Prayer, like anything else a Chaplain does, is to meet a real need. It cannot be an "assumed" need, but a real need.
A Chaplain has the obligation to meet the need with a principle that "thou shall not create more problems in the process!!" Meaning, if there is a certain population that finds a group prayer at a CAP meeting is needed and helpful to the mission at hand, then that group should be allowed to pray...BUT, it cannot be mandatory, and no retaliation or negative judgement can be made of those who chose not to participate.
At the same time, if there is a group that is adamantly opposed, or offended by group prayer during a meeting, then that should be respected out of courtesy to those offended and accommodations for those who wish to pray together should be made outside the realm of an official meeting.
The first rule of chaplaincy is to recognize that CAP exists within a pluralistic society. There are all manner of faith groups and non-faith groups that are woven into the fabric of the nation and the Constitution, wisely, protects belief and unbelief. A Chaplain should never assume that everything he/she does or says is welcome by all in CAP. However, if needed by anyone, a Chaplain should be willing and able to offer themselves as agents of help, or if running counter to his or her endorsing faith group, find appropriate resources to help.
Proselytizing by a Chaplain in CAP runs counter to the CAP Chaplain Corps Code of Ethics and is grounds for 2b'ing a Chaplain.
Can we move on from this topic now?
Well said. :clap:
Says it all. Amen!!!
Quote from: DogCollar on April 16, 2010, 11:27:23 AM
This has gone pretty far afield.....
The Chaplain Corps has strict rules (NOT always followed, however) guiding our work. Prayer, like anything else a Chaplain does, is to meet a real need. It cannot be an "assumed" need, but a real need.
A Chaplain has the obligation to meet the need with a principle that "thou shall not create more problems in the process!!" Meaning, if there is a certain population that finds a group prayer at a CAP meeting is needed and helpful to the mission at hand, then that group should be allowed to pray...BUT, it cannot be mandatory, and no retaliation or negative judgement can be made of those who chose not to participate.
At the same time, if there is a group that is adamantly opposed, or offended by group prayer during a meeting, then that should be respected out of courtesy to those offended and accommodations for those who wish to pray together should be made outside the realm of an official meeting.
The first rule of chaplaincy is to recognize that CAP exists within a pluralistic society. There are all manner of faith groups and non-faith groups that are woven into the fabric of the nation and the Constitution, wisely, protects belief and unbelief. A Chaplain should never assume that everything he/she does or says is welcome by all in CAP. However, if needed by anyone, a Chaplain should be willing and able to offer themselves as agents of help, or if running counter to his or her endorsing faith group, find appropriate resources to help.
Proselytizing by a Chaplain in CAP runs counter to the CAP Chaplain Corps Code of Ethics and is grounds for 2b'ing a Chaplain.
Can we move on from this topic now?
I agree, well said.
Quote from: AirAux on April 16, 2010, 12:26:39 PM
The atheist and agnostics have won, their non-beliefs are stronger and more important, and more controlling than the beliefs of the majority. It is hard to believe that a Chaplain would deny the strongest tenet of the faith, to spread the word to all.
I seem to hear this same cry every time evangelicals are prevented from proselytizing.
I have a feeling we're about to veer even further off-topic.
The bottom line is that it's inappropriate for CAP members, chaplains or otherwise, to try and use CAP as a recruiting ground for a specific religion. That is not to say that members should be forbidden from mentioning their religion if asked, just that they should not be offering unsolicited religious views.
I, for one, don't consider a non-denominational prayer at the start of a meeting to be a problem.
Quote from: AirAux on April 16, 2010, 12:26:39 PM
I'm sorry, but I couldn't let this one go by. Can't you all see that the minority view is winning through political correctness? I don't know of a Christian faith or a Bible that doesn't direct one to go forth and spread the news. Now, due to political correctness, a man of faith, a Chaplain no less, has been instructed not to spread the faith for fear of being 2b'd and thrown out of the program.. The atheist and agnostics have won, their non-beliefs are stronger and more important, and more controlling than the beliefs of the majority. It is hard to believe that a Chaplain would deny the strongest tenet of the faith, to spread the word to all. I seem to remember something in the Bible about the preachers being held to a higher standard when they get to heaven. Now I understand why.. How can God expect anyone to obey when his own preachers and priests lie down their most trusted responsibilities?? I am disappointed, but not surprised..
You completely miss the point that your rights extend right up to the point that mine begin. Evangelicals piss and moan when they think their right to believe is being infringed when in truth it's my right to not believe what you believe that is being infringed when you constantly push yourself on me. If you want to practice your beliefs then more power to you. Just do it somewhere it doesn't effect me. I'm here for AE, CP and ES not to have someone's beliefs forced on me.
Wasn't this thread due for a LOCK a couple of pages ago?
Quote from: PHall on April 16, 2010, 04:13:03 PM
Wasn't this thread due for a LOCK a couple of pages ago?
I don't think so. It has gotten a little heated but everyone has for the most part remained civil. It is on topic as some of us are stating why prayer should not open a meeting and others are stating why it should.
Actually, the Constitution protects my rights to practice my religion where and when I see fit. Your attempt to stop me is an infringement upon my constitutional rights.. you don't have to believe what I do, but you have no right to attempt to stop me from believing in and practicing what I believe.. My practicing my beliefs does not infringe upon your non-beliefs and as your non-beliefs are not a religion they are therefore not protected by the Constitution..
As long as your beliefs don't conflict with my organization's policy of religious neutrality, you go right ahead.
You might also want to brush up on your Constitutional law, by the way.
Quote from: AirAux on April 16, 2010, 05:24:34 PM
Actually, the Constitution protects my rights to practice my religion where and when I see fit. Your attempt to stop me is an infringement upon my constitutional rights.. you don't have to believe what I do, but you have no right to attempt to stop me from believing in and practicing what I believe.. My practicing my beliefs does not infringe upon your non-beliefs and as your non-beliefs are not a religion they are therefore not protected by the Constitution..
Please, take a Constitutional law class or two (or maybe just a logical thought class) and then re-evaluate that position.
Quote from: AirAux on April 16, 2010, 05:24:34 PM
Actually, the Constitution protects my rights to practice my religion where and when I see fit. Your attempt to stop me is an infringement upon my constitutional rights.. you don't have to believe what I do, but you have no right to attempt to stop me from believing in and practicing what I believe.. My practicing my beliefs does not infringe upon your non-beliefs and as your non-beliefs are not a religion they are therefore not protected by the Constitution..
To a point you are correct.
But our organisation is NOT there to provide you with a captive audience.
Our regulations tells us that we should refrain from preaching to our members.
CAP membership is a privilege not a right.
If you cannot reconcile your religious beliefs with the stated goals of our organisation and our rules....then you should move on.
I don't like to get this hard onto anyone....but that is the way it should be....and don't think that I am thrashing you because you are a christian....if an atheist was out preaching to the unit and he could not keep his beliefs to himself he should move on as well.
All constitutional rights have limits.
You have the right to free speech...except where it brings harm to others, or overly bothers other people (such as playing loud music after 10 P.M.)
You have the right to worship as you feel....except where it brings harm to others....If I said I worshiped the Mayan Gods and they required human sacrifice.....I don't think that would go over too well in court.
You say you have a religious duty to preach to the masses.....how does this go over where you work?
As I said before.....I don't really have a problem with a little prayer before a meeting.
I don't have a problem with CAP chaplains.
I don't even have a problem with you Airaux...although you should read the regs and get a better understanding of our program and its aims and rules.
We are all here to serve our community. Let's keep that in focus and just drop all the rest of the BS and move on.
First Amendment:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Congress shall make no law prohibiting the free exercise of a religion.. Therefore, I as an American citizen have the right to practice my religious beliefs accordingly.. (and I might add, I do so within the confines of our regulations and programs)..
Quote from: AirAux on April 16, 2010, 05:46:41 PM
First Amendment:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Congress shall make no law prohibiting the free exercise of a religion.. Therefore, I as an American citizen have the right to practice my religious beliefs accordingly..
And I have the right to practice mine which are to not be forced to listen to you. Your rights end where mine begin. You are not understanding that.
Quote from: davidsinn on April 16, 2010, 05:55:53 PM
Quote from: AirAux on April 16, 2010, 05:46:41 PM
First Amendment:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Congress shall make no law prohibiting the free exercise of a religion.. Therefore, I as an American citizen have the right to practice my religious beliefs accordingly..
And I have the right to practice mine which are to not be forced to listen to you. Your rights end where mine begin. You are not understanding that.
^ There is a point where your right to preach to me about salvation doesn't exist. It's called my right to not listen. If you choose to continue to do so, then it is my right to call the police and tell them you are harassing me.
Captain Sinn ( and I shall refrain from any puns or plays on words about Major Lord and Captain Sinn....) has an interesting point. In the case of the Baptist Church Group protesting at funerals of American Soldiers, so far at least, the protesters have kept the right to intentionally rain on the religious practices of the soldiers families in carrying out the burials of their friends and family members. Effectively, the Courts of the United States of America have given permission for one group to infringe on the religious practices of another group ( naturally, the courts chose to side with the notoriously un-American side)
CAP is chartered by Congress, and it may be that there is some residual authority invested in Congress to prevent runaway religious practices in CAP. Who knows? The evangelization of the service academies has been a bone of contention for awhile now, and Congress has not taken step
s to prevent it. ( oddly, given their hostility towards religion in general)
You don't have a right to be completely free to from merely hearing the words of religion, but you have the option of not listening or participating. If your CAP units makes you hold hands and sing Kum-Bayh-Yah, I think you have a valid case of at the least, a hostile work environment. This is pretty much the position that the dad who's child was seriously injured by hearing the word "God" in the Pledge of allegiance in public schools took, with ACLU backing. So far at least, the Pledge has resisted the machinations of those tyrants on the bench who find burning flags to be a perfectly respectable behavior, while honoring the flag to be on par with sending Jews to the gas chamber.
Major Lord
This is pretty interesting.....
CAPTalkers...you're showing what all of are afraid of......
The religion issue is going to prove less productive and PROVE to other folks the true CAP
Some "professionals" telling other "professionals" what religion and my god is better than your god type of crap
Hopefully this thread does get locked....Sure demonstrates why CAP ought to be left OUT of issues of religion ALTOGETHER.
Hopefully there are CAP and non CAP types from outside reading this thread..
Hopefully there is a LOCK soon this whole thing
WOW You guys leading senior members and cadets? After this little thread can any of you lead a trashcan to the corner?
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on April 16, 2010, 06:07:20 PM
Quote from: davidsinn on April 16, 2010, 05:55:53 PM
Quote from: AirAux on April 16, 2010, 05:46:41 PM
First Amendment:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Congress shall make no law prohibiting the free exercise of a religion.. Therefore, I as an American citizen have the right to practice my religious beliefs accordingly..
And I have the right to practice mine which are to not be forced to listen to you. Your rights end where mine begin. You are not understanding that.
^ There is a point where your right to preach to me about salvation doesn't exist. It's called my right to not listen. If you choose to continue to do so, then it is my right to call the police and tell them you are harassing me.
And they would respond and tell you all to grow up.
Quote from: heliodoc on April 16, 2010, 06:34:40 PM
Some "professionals" telling other "professionals" what religion and my god is better than your god type of crap
Are we reading the same thread? The subject of this thread has largely been what level of religious integration (if any) is appropriate for CAP. (And, by Internet standards, has remained remarkably civil...)
Anyways...
We had a class on this subject in OTS, and the example they gave on "religious equality" had two video clips of a commander introducing himself, showing the "OK" and the "bad".
OK: "... and I attend XYZ church downtown."
Bad: "... and I attend XYZ church downtown. It's a wonderful community, and we really love it there. If any of you are without a spiritual home, I'd be happy to give you a ride down and introduce you to the pastor."
Raivo, without trying to cause any dissension, could you please tell us what the reasoning was for the good-bad difference in the two? What made one good or okay and one bad?? the only difference I see is the extension of a warm welcome. I am not trying to put you on the spot, but since you said you went through this training, I am just wondering what the explanation was that they made to you.
The reasoning I remember was that, in-context, it's an implicit endorsement of a particular church (made worse by the fact that it's coming from a commander.)
The phrase that stands out in my memory is (paraphrased) "If you make that kind of offer, you'd better be prepared to give someone a ride to any church and introduce them to the pastor."
Quote from: sarflyer on April 16, 2010, 01:23:06 PM
You know, Todd is right, I just wrote a long response to all the comments. It's not worth it. I feel strongly about the cadet program and get a little miffed when it gets hit. I think I misunderstood and I apologize. Onto the next subject!
SARFlyer:
No problemo. Thank you for being a good influence on our cadets and trying to help make them better people.
Quote from: raivo on April 16, 2010, 06:56:36 PM
Quote from: heliodoc on April 16, 2010, 06:34:40 PM
Some "professionals" telling other "professionals" what religion and my god is better than your god type of crap
Are we reading the same thread? The subject of this thread has largely been what level of religious integration (if any) is appropriate for CAP. (And, by Internet standards, has remained remarkably civil...)
Anyways...
We had a class on this subject in OTS, and the example they gave on "religious equality" had two video clips of a commander introducing himself, showing the "OK" and the "bad".
OK: "... and I attend XYZ church downtown."
Bad: "... and I attend XYZ church downtown. It's a wonderful community, and we really love it there. If any of you are without a spiritual home, I'd be happy to give you a ride down and introduce you to the pastor."
#1 is a statement of fact. #2 is recruitment.
Either one could be considered an endorsement depending upon the perception of the listener.
This thread hasn't been locked , YET??
If you have nothing to add, why don't you quit adding???
'cause he wants an "indefinite" suspension again.
Quote from: AirAux on April 16, 2010, 07:44:47 PM
Either one could be considered an endorsement depending upon the perception of the listener.
It might be, but senior leadership has decided differently. Same goes for unit commanders who host a prayer luncheon at the squadron. Attending a prayer luncheon is ok, leading it and telling the squadron you would really like to see them there is not ok. I saw a squadron commander fired when he could not tell the difference.
In the RM, you really need to make sure you practice fairness and treat everyone equally. Of course a CC has to rank and stack his people - but it needs to be based on job performance. Even the unintentional but implied message to the troops that the people who attend your church or prayer meetings have an advantage over the ones who don't can destroy a unit's cohesion.
^CAP members must be treated fairly and equally as well. Our ethics regulation and, our core values are clear; not to mention our non discrimination policies.
IMHO, our chaplains are doing a great job. An opening prayer before a meeting is acceptable. The NB and NEC have an invocation before every meeting. They also have a benediction at the end. No problems there.
I suppose someone could make the argument that a Commander announcing which,if any, church he attends could be considered undue command influence, but I think you would have to show a pattern of treatment, for or against, non-members of his/her church. I have never heard of such a thing in CAP. Ever. Even the few time a visiting community Chaplain said the infamous "J" name ( a Jewish chap from Israel you may have heard of) I don't think anyone felt any pressure to convert, handle rattlesnakes, or other such practices. Our regular Chaplains seem to be well educated enough to understand the limits, and don't push them too hard.
Major Lord
ps. Chaplains and other believers: I invite your prayers for CAP and for me. At worst ( in the eyes of atheists) they are harmless or pointless, but at best, they might make our lives better. Its a win-win!
Quote from: heliodoc on April 16, 2010, 08:09:28 PM
This thread hasn't been locked , YET??
Why? This thread is an example of the finest behavior we should expect from our people. We have two diametrically opposed positions that are having a calm, rational discussion on a very personal and usually highly inflammatory subject. I wish all of the threads around here were this good. A lot of good information has been thrown out here.
While this may seem "off-topic", I consider it germane to the tone of the thread. With the recent release of the CAPR 265-1 and the Chaplain Corps Operating Procedure 2009-02 (October 2009), both the Wing and Region Chaplain are now more engaged in the application process of the chaplain candidate. This would afford an opportunity for the Wing Chaplain to ascertain whether or not the chaplain applicant understands the nature of CAP and ministering in a pluralistic society and what expectations the applicant had regarding CAP chaplaincy.
Based upon my 30+ years of both pastoral and chaplaincy ministry, I have developed a simple corollary: "While all chaplains should be pastors (i.e. taking care of people's needs), not all pastors can be chaplains." What I mean by that is that when I stood behind the pulpit of XYZ church in SomeTown, I was free to express myself within the denominational/congregational traditions, customs, expectations, etc. But when I donned the cleric (not part of my denominational dress -- but an universal symbol of a minister) and the kevlar to ride patrol or respond to calls from home or now put on the USAF service dress or blazer combo with the Christian Cross, I am reminded of a greater responsbility. In the words found throughout the publications of the USAF and CAP Chaplain Corps, we are to perform a "ministry of presence". Unfortunately, there are those few within our Chaplain Corps rank who at times engage in a "ministry of proselytizing."
Another observation that I have made is that some of those who engage in this type of conduct have done so because of there lack of training in CAP. From my dealings with these individuals, the overwhelming majority have never gone past Level 1 in their training. That is changing as a result of senior leadership of the Chaplain Corps over the past couple of years leading to changes within the Senior Member Professional Development Program requirements for chaplains. They are now required to take SLS and CLC for levels 2 and 3 (no more waiver for 221 and 221A - that is being developed into a full on specialty track) and they must meet the same requirements for promotions. No more promotions for chaplains who simply breathe for a required time frame :) These changes in our training requirements should make Chaplains more familiar with the organization and the members they serve.
While I'm not convinced we need a Chaplain corps at all, Chappie is right that steps have been taken to try to address some of the issues that have been a problem in the past.
Quote from: AirAux on April 16, 2010, 05:46:41 PM
First Amendment:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Congress shall make no law prohibiting the free exercise of a religion.. Therefore, I as an American citizen have the right to practice my religious beliefs accordingly.. (and I might add, I do so within the confines of our regulations and programs)..
Nice.....CAP is NOT a federal government agency and has nothing to do with congressional laws.
You do have a right to practice your religion....up to the point that it interferes with the smooth running of our program.
I was once an athiest, then agnostic, then a regular church-goer. The whys are not relevant here. I have never had a problem listening to others pray when I was not in the fold. I just thought to myself how stupid they were praying to a man-made being. I am actually more uncomfortable now with an imvocation then before.
Here is a question - What if there is no chaplain to give an invocation and the commander randomly selecs indviduals to give the invocation? A senior member, with no connection to chaplain program gives a on-the-spot prayer. Some of these prayers have gone upwards of three minutes. Now - get this, the commander considers himself as non-religous. He syas the only reason he does it is becuase it has always been done that way and he is concerend that many sneior members will leave if we do not have an invocation.
Thoughts?
Quote from: High Speed Low Drag on April 17, 2010, 02:07:45 AM
I was once an athiest, then agnostic, then a regular church-goer. The whys are not relevant here. I have never had a problem listening to others pray when I was not in the fold. I just thought to myself how stupid they were praying to a man-made being. I am actually more uncomfortable now with an imvocation then before.
Here is a question - What if there is no chaplain to give an invocation and the commander randomly selecs indviduals to give the invocation? A senior member, with no connection to chaplain program gives a on-the-spot prayer. Some of these prayers have gone upwards of three minutes. Now - get this, the commander considers himself as non-religous. He syas the only reason he does it is becuase it has always been done that way and he is concerend that many sneior members will leave if we do not have an invocation.
Thoughts?
Put it up for a vote. Majority rules. It's one thing for people to want it, it's another when they "just don't mind".
Invocation for the sake of an invocation is unecessary. I can see a Wing Chaplains' office opening meetings (if there's enough of them to constitute a "meeting") with an invocation. It would be quite appropriate there, and wouldn't be considered unusual. But for a unit just to do it, there's little reason for it.
A meeting shouldn't be opened with "Who's gonna pray this week?"
Quote from: High Speed Low Drag on April 17, 2010, 02:07:45 AM
I was once an athiest, then agnostic, then a regular church-goer. The whys are not relevant here. I have never had a problem listening to others pray when I was not in the fold. I just thought to myself how stupid they were praying to a man-made being. I am actually more uncomfortable now with an imvocation then before.
Here is a question - What if there is no chaplain to give an invocation and the commander randomly selecs indviduals to give the invocation? A senior member, with no connection to chaplain program gives a on-the-spot prayer. Some of these prayers have gone upwards of three minutes. Now - get this, the commander considers himself as non-religous. He syas the only reason he does it is becuase it has always been done that way and he is concerend that many sneior members will leave if we do not have an invocation.
Thoughts?
Bottom line: It's the Commander's call. The regs are silent on this issue. Prayer that is offered is not limited to members of the Chaplain Corps.
I have always thought that the problem with Atheism is that it takes so much faith........one little slip and your an Agnostic! ;D
Major Lord
Quote from: Chappie on April 17, 2010, 03:45:29 AM
Quote from: High Speed Low Drag on April 17, 2010, 02:07:45 AM
I was once an athiest, then agnostic, then a regular church-goer. The whys are not relevant here. I have never had a problem listening to others pray when I was not in the fold. I just thought to myself how stupid they were praying to a man-made being. I am actually more uncomfortable now with an imvocation then before.
Here is a question - What if there is no chaplain to give an invocation and the commander randomly selecs indviduals to give the invocation? A senior member, with no connection to chaplain program gives a on-the-spot prayer. Some of these prayers have gone upwards of three minutes. Now - get this, the commander considers himself as non-religous. He syas the only reason he does it is becuase it has always been done that way and he is concerend that many sneior members will leave if we do not have an invocation.
Thoughts?
Bottom line: It's the Commander's call. The regs are silent on this issue. Prayer that is offered is not limited to members of the Chaplain Corps.
I recall seeing something about Army Infantry Officers and NCOs doing a prayer before going outside the wire and someone being offended by it...I can't recall where I saw it. Seems similar to this situation.
This thread coincidentally tracks with a facebook post I made yesterday. Though not directly related I feel it is relevant because the basic tenet remains the same. If we allow one faith we have to allow all. How do you feel about a satanist offering a "prayer" before a meeting. I am a religious person and feel that a prayer to start a meeting is way out of place. When it happens I get REALLY uncomfortable. I have never met a chaplain in CAP who does NOT structure the prayer/invocation to reflect his or her denominational/personal practice. I am a Christian but I feel that invoking the name of Christ in a CAP setting is wrong and polarizing. It takes ALL types. I know members of CAP and the military who are Catholic, Protestant, Evangelical, Jewish, Muslim, Atheist, Buddhist, Pagan, Hindu and practitioners of Native American worship. How can you NOT offend SOMEONE in a secular setting with a prayer/invocation?
Here is the post:
"We DO NOT live in a Christian Nation. Our founders, the majority of whom were Christians, realized that advocating one religion over another was wrong. In order to have the freedom to be able to practice their faith, they had to ensure that ALL faiths would have the same freedom. When European settlers came to the new world, they were fleeing religious oppression. They were not able to practice their faith as they believed because the nations they were fleeing had a different idea of what religion meant. Our nation is a secular nation founded solidly on the Judeo-Christian morals that our forefathers shared. Yes the majority of them were Christian but if they wanted a Christian nation, they would not have said "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" they would have said something to the effect of "This nation is a Christian Republic and all religions in conflict with the tenets of Christianity are prohibited". I am a devout Catholic. The governments of Europe discriminated against members of my church as late as the 20th Century. Because leaders in government didn't like Catholics, horrendous things were done to my ancestors. I thank God every day that I live in a nation where this can never happen again. By proclaiming we are a Christian Nation, we are setting the stage to revisit the horrors of the past upon non-Christians. The founders foresaw this and specifically prohibited it!"
Quote from: cap235629 on April 17, 2010, 05:05:53 AM
SNIP How do you feel about a satanist offering a "prayer" before a meeting. I am a religious person and feel that a prayer to start a meeting is way out of place. When it happens I get REALLY uncomfortable. I have never met a chaplain in CAP who does NOT structure the prayer/invocation to reflect his or her denominational/personal practice. I am a Christian but I feel that invoking the name of Christ in a CAP setting is wrong and polarizing. It takes ALL types. I know members of CAP and the military who are Catholic, Protestant, Evangelical, Jewish, Muslim, Atheist, Buddhist, Pagan, Hindu and practitioners of Native American worship. How can you NOT offend SOMEONE in a secular setting with a prayer/invocation?
It disappoints me to read the wide brush that is being used to paint Chaplains and their prayers. There are a great many of us who take the composition of our target audience in mind when our prayers are offered...and do not invoke the Name of Jesus/Christ in our prayers (Sir, we have not had the privilege of meeting nor have you heard me offer a prayer in a informal/formal setting. As mentioned in a previous post, in my 14 years as a CAP Chaplain there has never been a complaint regarding the content of my prayers -- and I have offered prayers at Squadron, Group, Wing, Region and National activities/events).
There has been excellent training provided by the former Dep Director of the Chaplain Corps (before National terminated the position), who is a Col in the USAFR as well at our Region Chaplain Corps Staff Colleges regarding ministry in a pluralistic society. I would hope that these occassions are no longer the norm. I know that they have taken place in the past...and many of us have counseled our colleagues when we hear of the occurrances. I can tell you one thing for certain...the CAP Chaplain Corps that I joined in 1996 is not the same Chaplain Corps today -- and for that I am very glad.
Quoteyour non-beliefs are not a religion they are therefore not protected by the Constitution..
Just to put this issue to bed once and for all. The case involved a Maryland Notary Public who was denied a commission because he refused to profess a belief in God as required by state law.
TORCASO v. WATKINS, 367 U.S. 488 (1961) (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=367&invol=488)
QuoteWe repeat and again reaffirm that neither a State nor the Federal Government can constitutionally force a person "to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion." Neither can constitutionally pass laws or impose requirements which aid all religions as against non-believers, 10 and neither can aid those religions based on a belief in the existence of God as against those religions founded on different beliefs.
QuoteThis Maryland religious test for public office unconstitutionally invades the appellant's freedom of belief and religion and therefore cannot be enforced against him.
In a footnote to the unanimous decision, Justice Black wrote:
QuoteAmong the religions in this country which do not teach what would generally be considered a belief in the existence of God are Buddhism, Taoism, Ethical Culture, Secular Humanism, and others.
After Toracaso, several of the Appelate Courts have expressly stated atheism a religion for constitutional purposes. Among them are:
1. United States Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit (May 13, 1977) Warner decision.
2. United States Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit. Kaufman v. McCaughtry (2005).
To show the lengths that some of us take...here is a copy of an e-mail sent to Wing Chaplains within our Region:
From: <snip>
To: <snip>
CC: <Snip>
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 22:28:21 -0700
Fellow Colleagues,
It is that time of the year when many Wings are conducting their annual conferences. It is always a great time to schedule a break-out session for your Chaplain Corps personnel and give them an overview of what is taking place as well as an opportunity to network with each other.
Just a reminder that Wing Conferences can be considered "mandated formations", in other words, members are there because they need to be there. So our prayers and comments in General Assemblies or Banquets should reflect the audience. In any Wing gathering, we find people of faith....people of no faith...and even some who don't want to be part of a faith-based group. So we walk a fine line in what we share. That is our challenge in ministering in a pluralistic environment. I have used the Book of Prayer as a resource for formulating my prayers for CAP gatherings – especially those events which are not religious in nature. This resource has been posted on the Pacific Region Chaplain Corps Web-site:
http://hc.pcr.cap.gov/downloads/CAP_Book_of_Prayers.pdf
Many Wings incorporate a Memorial Service in their General Assembly. It would be wise to discuss with your Wing Commander as to the format/content of the service. Their idea or concept of how the Memorial Service should be conducted may differ than yours. As the XXWG HC serving with Col <snip> and I discussed the Memorial Service. He shared that he would like to see something that would not be lengthy, but dignified and would pay honor to the memory of those who served in the Wing.
So I came up with a format that included a powerpoint presentation that had the names of those who passed away in the months between the previous year's and current Wing Conference. The slides were set to fitting music. Before the final slide that featured an artist rendering of the "missing man formation" with the playing of "Taps", the room was called to attention. The service was concluded with a prayer. That format was used at the YEAR/NAME Conference at the request of Col <snip> and Col <snip>. The names were arranged/displayed according to the Wings.
That format was also used for the 2002 and 2003 National Conferences. The Chief of Chaplains had the Region Commanders read each name and the name was displayed when read. At the conclusion of the reading of the names from each region, the Region Commander placed a yellow rose in a vase. Needless to say, the service was lengthy due to the sheer numbers of those who passed on and the reading of the names. This has been modified in subsequent years. At this year's National Board, the names were displayed by Region with appropriate musical background. They were not read aloud. This format shortened the time and still allowed for a dignified, honoring tribute to our fallen comrades. Chaplain Woodard concluded the presentation with a word of prayer.
A few days ago, I was at the XXWG Conference. Chaplain <snip> conducted a Memorial Service. Following some pastoral comments, he read the names of those who had passed away. He instructed those in attendance to stand when the name of a person was read who you either served with or knew. He also instructed that at the conclusion of the reading of the names if you hadn't stood before, to join those standing. A piper then played the song, "Going Home". Chaplain <snip> then concluded with a prayer. Having people stand in honor of those who had passed when their name was read was a wonderful tribute.
Trust that your Wing Conferences will be well attended by members of your Chaplain Corps. These are great opportunities for practicing the "ministry of presence" as well as an opportunity to interact with those involved in the other missions/tasks of the Wing.
If you have any questions or ideas that you would like shared, drop me a line.
In Service Together,
Name
Ch, Lt Col, Name, CAP
Region HC
Civil Air Patrol
^Well done, very respectful, common sense. it takes everyone's beliefs and non-beliefs into account. This agnostic Buddhist approves. :)
Quote from: RiverAux on April 16, 2010, 11:34:36 PM
While I'm not convinced we need a Chaplain corps at all...
I'll tell you why we need a Chaplains corps, because those that do practice a faith need an advocate or even a "minister," as in "adinister" of their faith.
For example, we had a topic on here about observing the Sabbath (either Jewish or Christian), dietary issues (such as keeping Kosher and Lenten observances) and religious holidays. While we are a secular nation, we do have the personal Constitutionally protected right of "free exercise" of which a great many participate. To deny the free exercise is not an option.
Thus, we have a Chaplaincy. We also have two other concepts that run this into murky water, diversity and reality. Ideally, we should have a Christian (Protestant), Christian (Catholic), Christian (Orthodox), Jewish (Reformed), Jewish (Orthodox), and Islamic cleric type Chalpains of which I am unfamiliar with the sects. The reality is, we cannot have this in every single unit, that is the reality. So, a unit with a Chaplain is not there to seek out conversions, but to see to the spiritial needs of the Unit. It might mean that on some SARex a Protestant Chaplain seeks a Chatholic Mass for a Roman Catholic CAP member who desires it. It might mean that the Chalpain insures that meals are provided in acordance with Kosher law for Jewish CAP members. It might mean knowing how to offer secular counseling to all, including athiests and agnonsitcs.
Yes, we are not a "Church," but there are such needs to be addressed. I submit that denying someone's Faith and Creed at CAP events is as distastful as submitting non-believers to a moment of silence or general invocation.
That is how I see it. A Chalpain should be a person of good moral character and amicibility....someone you should like to go to to just talk, if necessary. The "Fire and Brimstone" types are welcome, but that will have to be left at home in favor of general understanding.
I am sure I will be corrected by one of our esteemed Chaplains if I am incorrect in my above understanding of the CAP Chaplaincy.
Quote from: Major Carrales on April 17, 2010, 05:25:59 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on April 16, 2010, 11:34:36 PM
While I'm not convinced we need a Chaplain corps at all...
I'll tell you why we need a Chaplains corps, because those that do practice a faith need an advocate or even a "minister," as in "adinister" of their faith.
Why? Why do CAP members need such religious support when the local softball league doesn't?
Now, the military is one thing. We are sending our folks all over the world for months if not years at a time and there is a legitimate need to try to provide some religious services for them. It just isn't reasonable to ask someone to volunteer to join the military and then not have some sort of access to religious support for that time period.
The only thing about CAP that could lead to a need for religious support is possible exposure to incidents with horrible outcomes or possibly even losing friends in accidents involving CAP members. But, if members are going to have problems with that there is no reason that they couldn't go see their own ministers, and quite frankly that owuld probably be more effective.
Why? really? WOW!!!
Softball league?! Double WOW!!! Is that where you place this organization?
You've just lost all credibility on CAP matters with me for a long while.
The fact is that, in our area, we sometimes have to travel sometimes hundreds of miles from home where we have to spend the night...sometimes Friday, Saturday and Sundays for SARex and even REDCAP. Some people have religious obligations they might wish to meet along with their communitarian ones. By not providing at least the locations and options, via a Chaplaincy, for members to freely practice their religious oblications...we are in violation of the spirit of the law, and, likely the letter of it.
Well, softball league members often travel quite extensively over weekends as well and yet they don't need their own chaplains to get by. I could have chosen any civic organization as an example of one that doesn't use chaplains. Are you really saying that all civic organizations should have chaplains?
I know how you hate this, but you wanted a comparable example -- The Coast Guard Auxiliary does not have a chaplain service. Their members often travel a lot on weekends and on Sundays and I'm just about as likely to face some traumatic event where having a chaplain on scene might be helpful in the CG Aux as in CAP (an unlikely event in both organizations to be sure).
The suggestion that we would be in violation of the law by not providing chaplains is just as absurd as the idea that having them violates the law. If CAP doesn't provide a newspaper for everybody at base on the day of the SAREX are we violating freedom of the press as well? Are we losing members by not giving those that wish to read them one to read?
Quote from: RiverAux on April 17, 2010, 08:02:20 PM
Well, softball league members often travel quite extensively over weekends as well and yet they don't need their own chaplains to get by. I could have chosen any civic organization as an example of one that doesn't use chaplains. Are you really saying that all civic organizations should have chaplains?
I know how you hate this, but you wanted a comparable example -- The Coast Guard Auxiliary does not have a chaplain service. Their members often travel a lot on weekends and on Sundays and I'm just about as likely to face some traumatic event where having a chaplain on scene might be helpful in the CG Aux as in CAP (an unlikely event in both organizations to be sure).
The suggestion that we would be in violation of the law by not providing chaplains is just as absurd as the idea that having them violates the law. If CAP doesn't provide a newspaper for everybody at base on the day of the SAREX are we violating freedom of the press as well? Are we losing members by not giving those that wish to read them one to read?
What I find alarming about your comments is this "hate religion all all costs attitude" that you and several others had made most clear here. Honestly, there are people who take their religion and religious practices seriously; you seem to want to take that from them. Why? What is it to you if someone chooses to pray or not? Why does it "hurt you?" Why must you seek to destroy it? You seem to want to stomp on their rights in favor of a right you yourself don't seek to endulge in?
We have a chaplain's corps, so does the military and many other institutions. We have had it for a long while and it has not caused anyone to "die," "be harmed" nor "lessen anyone in any way." In fact, they likely are the embodiment of "free exercise" of religion.
Your freedom of the press argument is plainly ridiculous and your USCGAux one is more of your constant desire to morph us into their model. I may join that organziation just to do the reverse and turn them into CAP. I think I will not be met by the same civility you get here.
Ridiculous because it is so far off the mark. If CAP was restricting the reading of certain newspapers for political reasons, that might would be a violation...if so, if it was banning religious practices the same assertion can be made. Having a moment of silence or a short incovation is no such thing.
I'm not all that religious...but what you are suggesting is intolerance en re religion. I cannot support that. No more that I can support a mandated State religion or forced conversions. I fall on the "inclusive" side of the adminsitration of one's individual rights...not the restrictive.
Amazing how you have taken the question of an invocation said at a meeting and turned it into a"kill the chaplaincy" point. WOW!!!
"hate religion [at] all costs?"
strawman.jpg
Quote from: raivo on April 17, 2010, 10:03:21 PM
"hate religion [at] all costs?"
strawman.jpg
Really? Why then all the animosity over chaplains? The issue here today is not really about CAP meetings, but, based on all the drift, it is more "Religion vs Athieism." Sorry, the strawmen may be there, but it is not I that am beating them.
QuoteThe Coast Guard Auxiliary does not have a chaplain service.
The CG Aux has tried a prototype chaplain service at least twice in the last ten years. Each test was run in 2 or 3 districts. And each test was a failure. It seems that a not insignificant number of the chaplains could not stop proselytizing and did not 'get' the whole non-sectarian thing.
FWIW - The topic of invocations at USCG Auxiliary meetings does come up as an issue from time-to-time. And it gets the same reaction you see here.
Major Carrales wrote:
QuoteHonestly, there are people who take their religion and religious practices seriously; you seem to want to take that from them.
And there is place for that free exercise, in their own homes and places of worship at a time meant for worship. There is a saying that your freedom to swing your arms ends at my nose. Likewise your right to free exercise ends at my ears - especially at a partially tax payer supported organization (which lets church/state separation into the discussion). If a member is expected as a part of his/her membership to attend meetings then he/she should not be subjected to religious observances. By all means, have your free exercise before the meeting begins.
Quote from: Major Carrales on April 17, 2010, 10:06:09 PM
Really? Why then all the animosity over chaplains? The issue here today is not really about CAP meetings, but, based on all the drift, it is more "Religion vs Athieism." Sorry, the strawmen may be there, but it is not I that am beating them.
I haven't seen much "animosity."
I've seen some people saying that CAP doesn't need a chaplain program, and some people saying that CAP should have a chaplain program.
I've seen nobody saying that religion or atheism is better...
I am so glad that God does not beleive in Atheists!
QuoteWhat I find alarming about your comments is this "hate religion all all costs attitude" that you and several others had made most clear here.
Not sure where that is coming from. Saying that there is no NEED for chaplains in CAP doesn't mean I hate religion any more than my opinion that CAP doesn't NEED helicopters means I hate rotary wing aircraft.
Quoteyour USCGAux one is more of your constant desire to morph us into their model.
You can't have it both ways. You didn't like CAP being compared to a softball league, so I gave you the closest possible organization to what CAP is and what CAP does. I really don't understand why you think I'm always trying to change CAP into CG Aux when I point out that some of the things they do could work well for CAP. I don't care where good ideas come from. Go to the CG Aux board and you'll see that I pretty regularly propose some CAP-like solutions to CG Aux situations.
QuoteI'm not all that religious...but what you are suggesting is intolerance en re religion.
I'm really not sure how suggesting that CAP doesn't NEED chaplains is being intolerant of religion.
QuoteYour freedom of the press argument is plainly ridiculous and your USCGAux one is more of your constant desire to morph us into their model. I may join that organziation just to do the reverse and turn them into CAP. I think I will not be met by the same civility you get here.
Ridiculous because it is so far off the mark. If CAP was restricting the reading of certain newspapers for political reasons, that might would be a violation...if so, if it was banning religious practices the same assertion can be made. Having a moment of silence or a short incovation is no such thing.
Well, you've got to fight absurdity with absurdity. The suggestion that not providing chaplains could violate the law is just as nuts.
Quote from: Major Carrales on April 17, 2010, 05:55:58 PM
Why? really? WOW!!!
Softball league?! Double WOW!!! Is that where you place this organization?
You've just lost all credibility on CAP matters with me for a long while.
The fact is that, in our area, we sometimes have to travel sometimes hundreds of miles from home where we have to spend the night...sometimes Friday, Saturday and Sundays for SARex and even REDCAP. Some people have religious obligations they might wish to meet along with their communitarian ones. By not providing at least the locations and options, via a Chaplaincy, for members to freely practice their religious oblications...we are in violation of the spirit of the law, and, likely the letter of it.
The point being...CAP has more or less the same contact hours as does say your local softball team.
If you are in so need of religious guidance on the 3-4 hours you are at CAP then maybe CAP is not for you.
As I stated before....got no problem with Chaplains or even prayers before meetings....but I don't really see the need for it and it opens yet another route for someone who does not know their limits to abuse his/her power.
Quote from: lordmonar on April 18, 2010, 03:00:43 AM
Quote from: Major Carrales on April 17, 2010, 05:55:58 PM
Why? really? WOW!!!
Softball league?! Double WOW!!! Is that where you place this organization?
You've just lost all credibility on CAP matters with me for a long while.
The fact is that, in our area, we sometimes have to travel sometimes hundreds of miles from home where we have to spend the night...sometimes Friday, Saturday and Sundays for SARex and even REDCAP. Some people have religious obligations they might wish to meet along with their communitarian ones. By not providing at least the locations and options, via a Chaplaincy, for members to freely practice their religious oblications...we are in violation of the spirit of the law, and, likely the letter of it.
The point being...CAP has more or less the same contact hours as does say your local softball team.
If you are in so need of religious guidance on the 3-4 hours you are at CAP then maybe CAP is not for you.
As I stated before....got no problem with Chaplains or even prayers before meetings....but I don't really see the need for it and it opens yet another route for someone who does not know their limits to abuse his/her power.
Wow...now your just feeding the troll.
3-4 hours on CAP assignment? I'm talking about weekend work half a State away where you are there from Friday to late Sunday, prime church going hours.
If 3-4 hours is all you give to CAP in a week, you really should be addressing someone else. I put in about 10 hours a week at it between CAP in Kingsville and Corpus Christi via cadet and senior activities. If there is a Weekend activity that more than doubles.
Oh...and when the local softball team is doing SAR, ES and Cadet work as an official auxiliary of an Armed Force of our nation, let me know.
ADDITION:
Oh...and by the way...every baseball, softball, football or other team I have been on has begun the game with a prayer.
Quote from: Pumbaa on April 17, 2010, 10:25:18 PM
I am so glad that God does not beleive in Atheists!
I always preferred the quote from Steven King's novel "The Stand". Nick was telling Mother Abigale that he didn't believe in God. She just laughed and said something like, "That's ok, he believes in you."
Quote from: RRLE on April 17, 2010, 10:08:49 PM
QuoteThe Coast Guard Auxiliary does not have a chaplain service.
The CG Aux has tried a prototype chaplain service at least twice in the last ten years. Each test was run in 2 or 3 districts. And each test was a failure. It seems that a not insignificant number of the chaplains could not stop proselytizing and did not 'get' the whole non-sectarian thing.
<Snip>
The Coast Guard Aux has discussed with senior leadership in the CAP Chaplain Corps on a couple of occassions in recent years about the model on which to base a similar program. The problem that exists is that the Coast Guard does not have a Chaplaincy program per se...they utilize Navy Chaplains. Only the USAF and CAP have a working agreement with a Chaplain Corps that dates back to 1950.
Tick. Tock. Tick. Tock. Tick. Tock. :(
Quote from: SarDragon on April 18, 2010, 06:31:56 AM
Tick. Tock. Tick. Tock. Tick. Tock. :(
Dave,
Couldn't you move the hands forward on this clock?
Sorry, I spent about 20 minutes looking for a good animated clock smiley, and came up with nothing. I've lost my link to a site with some really kool smileys.
A softball league also has it's schedule generally ahead of itself, and probably even months out. They have probably been to these places before, their attention is only needed for certain parts of the day, and they probably even schedule themselves cooperatively around that need.
CAP does not know where it' s missions are going to be, who's going to be there, (in theory), what resources are going to be available, etc.
Being self sufficient makes us all the more flexible. We can provide for our members needs, and to the needs of the subjects related to our activities.
During WWII, the USAAC provided the cahplains at the CAP Bases. After the war, in 1950, CAP formed its own chaplain service. It is now recognized to be an intergral part of the USAF Chaplin Corps operations. Like other subjects, CAP Chaplains are a part of our heritage.
Softball Leagues don't operate 24/7, 365 days a year. Leagues are a short-lived existance, unlike CAP. Comparing a softball league to CAP is like comparing a El Camino with a tractor-trailer.
There have been some generalizations about the Chaplin Corps in the thread but overall I think the issue is more with non-chaplin members who feel they must"... save the heathen masses" with thier particular brand of religion. (I know I am over exagerating a little) The Chaplins know (but dont have to like it) that they need to be respectful of other relegious views and try and keep their activite as non offensive (ie tolerant to) other reliegious beliefs; my personal experience there has been pretty good (I had a military chaplin tell me on the side how he dislikes having to minister to some of the more heathen relegions...like Mormans and Druids..his words not mine) Individual members tend to be less tolerant
Overall Chaplins serve the program well (or any program) they are there for those that want/need relegious guidance and yet do well with those that need the same help, guidance or shoulder to cry on without the need for a particular diety to have been involved.
mk
Quote from: Rotorhead on April 13, 2010, 12:54:42 PM
If it would keep someone from joining, then perhaps that person isn't serious enough about being a member in the first place.
Couldn't agree more. If someone is offended or driven away from Civil Air Patrol because of a Prayer, then what are they doing joining/holding membership in Civil Air Patrol?
Moral Leadership (Character Developement) Lessons have religious discussion in some of the lessons.
This country was created with Religious Morals.
The Pledge of Allegiance has God in it, it has yet to be removed for 40+ years, so it must not offend that much.
If potential Cadets or current Cadets have any problems with hearing Religious Discussion or Prayer, then I find that they do not hold the high maturity level that Civil Air Patrol demands as an Organization and Auxiliary of the United States Air Force.
Hmmm.... I bet some at that little engineering school in the Rockies would agree with you. Well they used to go there anyway...
QuoteIf someone is offended or driven away from Civil Air Patrol because of a Prayer, then what are they doing joining/holding membership in Civil Air Patrol?
Did you miss the previous 8 pages of discussion?! CAP isnt a religious organization.....period. (ie its not a church, or a faith based entity or on a general level sponsored by a relegious entity)
Moral leadeship is not supposed to be faith specific (it happens that most good religious practices center around good moral and ethical decision making)
Just like anywhere else there are some extreme religious off shoot groups out there (ie Branch Davidians); Imagine you as an outsider walked into a CAP meeting (ie a bunch of youth being indoctrinated to military a lifestyle) and then what appears to you (or your parents) a lot of religious preaching-prayer in the begining, prayer at the end, a discussion of how to live your life based on the teachings of the Bible and then someone asks you what church do you go to and then tells you to make you a better person they will introduce you to Christ at their congregation down the road)....it could give you the wrong idea and you might have second thoughts about joining. It has nothing to do with maturity or tolerance.
mk
Quote from: sarmed1 on April 18, 2010, 07:09:49 PM
QuoteIf someone is offended or driven away from Civil Air Patrol because of a Prayer, then what are they doing joining/holding membership in Civil Air Patrol?
Did you miss the previous 8 pages of discussion?! CAP isnt a religious organization.....period. (ie its not a church, or a faith based entity or on a general level sponsored by a relegious entity)
Moral leadeship is not supposed to be faith specific (it happens that most good religious practices center around good moral and ethical decision making)
Just like anywhere else there are some extreme religious off shoot groups out there (ie Branch Davidians); Imagine you as an outsider walked into a CAP meeting (ie a bunch of youth being indoctrinated to military a lifestyle) and then what appears to you (or your parents) a lot of religious preaching-prayer in the begining, prayer at the end, a discussion of how to live your life based on the teachings of the Bible and then someone asks you what church do you go to and then tells you to make you a better person they will introduce you to Christ at their congregation down the road)....it could give you the wrong idea and you might have second thoughts about joining. It has nothing to do with maturity or tolerance.
mk
Speaking of reading posts, where was it mentioned anywhere that people were turing CAP into a religious organization. All that was mentioned was an opening prayer or moment of silence. No one suggested constant religious overtones or conversion classes or anything like that.
I say this to try to keep this discussion real. Mostly because I think this thread is about three such posts away from starting a RELIGIOUS WAR, Believers vs Non-Believers.
People have tried to keep this thread grounded in Constituational concepts and secular realisms, but there are some that just want to "go there." I say this after reading them all objectively with only the before mentioned ideas of Constitutionalism in mind. The Constitution supports neither side, it neither limits prayer nor supports it. Due to the nature of how it is written, the two sides could quote the 1st Amendment in out of context forever and get no where by an argument. Reading both sides of the phrase proves my point. The invocation/moment of silence is not Unconstitutional, open conversion attempts (by any faith) are. Restricting people's desire to pray is unconstitutional, refraining from doing so is not.
If I were a moderator here I would have locked this after the first page. Religion and Politics, I assumed, were off the menu of palatable topics here...yet, this abomination has been allowed to live well past its usefulness and, what more, the desired to get into these agendistic (both sides) discussions has shown a brna dof intolerance (on both sides) that has no place in CAP.
Quote from: sarmed1 on April 18, 2010, 07:09:49 PM
QuoteIf someone is offended or driven away from Civil Air Patrol because of a Prayer, then what are they doing joining/holding membership in Civil Air Patrol?
Did you miss the previous 8 pages of discussion?! CAP isn't a religious organization.....period. (ie its not a church, or a faith based entity or on a general level sponsored by a religious entity)
Moral leadership is not supposed to be faith specific (it happens that most good religious practices center around good moral and ethical decision making)
Just like anywhere else there are some extreme religious off shoot groups out there (ie Branch Davidians); Imagine you as an outsider walked into a CAP meeting (ie a bunch of youth being indoctrinated to military a lifestyle) and then what appears to you (or your parents) a lot of religious preaching-prayer in the beginning, prayer at the end, a discussion of how to live your life based on the teachings of the Bible and then someone asks you what church do you go to and then tells you to make you a better person they will introduce you to Christ at their congregation down the road)....it could give you the wrong idea and you might have second thoughts about joining. It has nothing to do with maturity or tolerance.
Mk
Now. I didn't say that Civil Air Patrol was a Religious Organization. Of coarse it will never be. But just like the Armed Forces itself, there are Religious Prayer and Reference to Religion many times. In my Moral Leadership Discussions we have a Chain of Command Lesson and we always refer to God as the "Top Dog".
I don't see anything wrong with that, and if someone cannot handle that (in maturity) then what are they doing in Civil Air Patrol.
PS - Yes I did miss the previous 8 pages of discussion (Mind filling me in?)
For those suggesting that this thread be closed down, the topic of the appropriateness of an opening prayer at CAP meetings is both relevant to CAP and obviously has produced some strong opinions. There is value to the Civil Air Patrol leader in discussing this. Simply because the topic is uncomfortable for some, or because there are diametrically opposed viewpoints here, doesn't mean that the thread should be shut down. I would suggest that good leaders don't avoid difficult and sensitive topics of discussion to instead chat about superficial topics like uniforms.
To clarify, the discussion isn't about religion -- it's about the appropriateness of prayer at Civil Air Patrol meetings. Understand that you are not likely to change many peoples' viewpoints through your arguments - especially those with deep-seated opinions on the topic. Keep it on topic and keep the discussion appropriate and professional and there won't be any issues.
Quote from: Pylon on April 18, 2010, 07:49:31 PM
To clarify, the discussion isn't about religion -- it's about the appropriateness of prayer at Civil Air Patrol meetings. Understand that you are not likely to change many peoples' viewpoints through your arguments - especially those with deep-seated opinions on the topic. Keep it on topic and keep the discussion appropriate and professional and there won't be any issues.
On the contrary, an objective reading of the full thread shows that it is very much about religion. It would follow that if a person is talking about "prayer," the matter is that of religion and the Chaplain Corps (as was suggested to rid CAP of one).
If this thread is of the type where people are "not going to change people's view point," why keep it going? Entertainment?
Politics and Religion should not be discussed here. There are countless other places where that can be done. What's more, everything on both sides and the middle has already been said.
Good leaders don't avoid sensative questions, but they do those that have no answer and create ill will and division. That is what is happening in this thread. Good leaders look for "solutions," not create unending debate on an issue.
If you can solve any of these problems mentioned in this thread, your place is not in CAP first, but rather in Northen Ireland, the Middle East or Chechnya and then in Stockholm accepting a Nobel Peace Prize. Debating this here is fruitless.
Close it down.
Sparky,
The paradox of your argument is that you are arguing for intolerance of intolerance.....Which makes your position.......intolerant! Further, you have tried to suppress the free expression of ideas by cutting off the discussion! Again, undermining what has been an interesting discussion, about a field of great interest to CAP members. I submit that a private board such as this is precisely the venue for this kind of discussion, as opposed to a CAP meeting for instance. I have learned from this board and from the Poll, that the vast majority of members value the Chaplaincy, and the number of people who seem to strenuously object are noticeable more from their stridency then their numbers. CAP is not an amoral organization. It would hard to be both benevolent (as our charter mandates) and indifferent to the values we generally share. A pointed discussion of the Chaplaincy should reinforce the value of the Chaplaincy, which I believe in this case, it has. (look at the Poll numbers) "Tolerance"is frequently touted as a characteristic that is intrinsically valuable and good. The ethical trap of worshiping tolerance is that tolerance can in some cases, merely be a politically-correct, code-word for moral cowardice. The examination of the things we do and the reasons we do them is appropriate, as long as the discussion remains free of personal attacks, and holds to reason.
Major Lord
ps. How did a guy named "Carrales" get a nickname like "Sparky" instead of the more obvious "Okay"?
I am finished here. Have at each other and the beliefs of others, condemed to debate this topic until it reaches the level of being unbecoming or simply falls into the cyper-aether.
I suppose, we can then discuss political issues since this forum is public and the proper place. Topics like "Is the Obama Administration good for CAP?" and "Do Republicans feel CAP is a waste of time and money?" By the arguments posted here on the subject of Religion, I assume that such topics are fair game by tolken of the rationale that has prevailed here today.
I will not reply publically to this thread...
Quote from: sarmed1 on April 18, 2010, 04:45:05 PM
(I had a military chaplin tell me on the side how he dislikes having to minister to some of the more heathen relegions...like Mormans and Druids..his words not mine) Individual members tend to be less tolerant
I've seen/heard nearly the exact thing from chaplains (RM and CAP) for the last 35 years far too often to be a coincidence. They claim to be educated men of God, but too many of them (not all) are just ignorant bigots. If they knew what they were talking about, they wouldn't make statements like that.
CAP has always been in the forefront with treating people with equality - blacks and women were treated equally in CAP long before they were in the RM. The chaplains haven't caught up.
How about that chaplain saying something like this:
"I dislike having to minister to some of the more heathen religions . . . like Jews and Druids."
How is that different? Is that worse? Not really - a bigot is a bigot.
Quote from: sarmed1 on April 18, 2010, 04:45:05 PM
There have been some generalizations about the Chaplin Corps...non-chaplin members w... little) The Chaplins know (but ...a military chaplin tell ...Overall Chaplins serve...
mk
emphasis added
FYI this is a Chaplin.. Spell check is your friend!
(http://www.cornellcollege.edu/classical_studies/images/clsimages/Charlie_Chaplin.jpg)