NCO's in CAP - the challenges

[Dragoon]

The reason you haven't got a grip on the NCO concept is because I have been an NCO for so long I just think like one – and you, on the other hand have no real knowledge of what an NCO is, does, or the place the NCO has in an organization.  So, bear with me and I'll try to explain.

Ummm....In my "day job" I have been mentored by, provided mentoring to, and lead NCOs for in excess of 20 years.  I think that qualifies as having at least some knowledge of what NCOs are, do,  and their place in a military organization.

I'll make you a deal - you don't generalize about CAP officers, and I won't generalize about USAF NCOs.   Sound fair?   

[Dragoon]

Chief, I think you'll find out if you do the analysis that the vast majority of squadron level CAP members are performing "NCO" not "officer" duties.  As a result, if we want an NCO corps THAT'S the way to go. Making those members into those NCOs.

I really like your challenge to name 5 things in CAP that needs changing.  Here are mine - not by any means an all inclusive list, but just a few that came to mind quickly.

1.  Simplify and clarify headgear and outer garment requirements for uniforms.  As it stands you can wear a pink top hat with your blue utility or field uniform (though you have the OPTION of wearing a blue BDU cap with the field, though not with the utility - weird).  And many believe that any civilian outer garment is acceptable with USAF BDUs in the name of "safety" and cost savings - if that's true, let's see it in writing.

2.  CAP desperately needs its professional development system revised to include practical tasks like activity planning, OPORDER writing, and preparing correspondence.  Much like the revised ES system, our level 1 and 2 needs more hands on practical stuff designed to give members the real skills to run good squadrons.

3.  Relook 20-1 in light of the true "average" CAP squadron.  A while back, the average outfit had about 4 active seniors and 8 cadets.  How come 20-1 doesn't explain how to run a unit with that few, as opposed to only modeling the "perfect" 70 man squadron.  Some positions are clearly "nice to have" but aren't labled as such.

4.  We need an online driver's exam to cover the 77-1 series, so that all our drivers know the CAP rules, accident reporting, liability, how to do daily vehicle inspections, etc.

5.  Relook all requirements levied on the squadron from a manpower/work hour standpoint.  This is related to #3.  Each staff section keeps inventing new reports and requirements for the squadron to perform without checking to see if there's actually time and manpower at the units to get them done.  This results in a heck of a lot of "pencil whipping" because folks simply can't do it all right.  Any attempt to add a requirement to squadron's workload needs to go through some central activity to determine its impact on the poor guys at the bottom.

Whaddaya think?  Challenging enough for a start?

[Mac]

They're listed as SMs. Promotion authority is local & paperwork never leaves the unit. That's why NHQ will be confused if you tell them you want to revert, cause they don't deal with it & all you're really asking them to do is take you from Major to SM & indicate it isn't for disciplinary reasons. It isn't tracked at all anywhere that I know of.

I think one key thing to establish initially is can they go back to the O-grade down teh road if this doesn't work out or they change tehir mind.

I have sent CAPF 2 in for demotion to NCO grades and national will list the individual as the NCO grade indictaed.

[MIKE]

And many believe that any civilian outer garment is acceptable with USAF BDUs in the name of "safety" and cost savings - if that's true, let's see it in writing.

Biggest myth in CAP, if it were authorized it would say so like it does for each of the CAP Distinctive Uniforms.  Note that at present this is not true of the CAP Corporate Uniform.

The real answer is supposed to be that if you can't afford an All Weather Coat or Raincoat (You can wear those with both BDUs and Service Uniform.)  You'll wear a CAP Distinctive Uniform for which civilian (non-standard) outerwear has been specifically authorized.

3.  Relook 20-1 in light of the true "average" CAP squadron.  A while back, the average outfit had about 4 active seniors and 8 cadets.  How come 20-1 doesn't explain how to run a unit with that few, as opposed to only modeling the "perfect" 70 man squadron.  Some positions are clearly "nice to have" but aren't labled as such.

IIRC I heard them discuss this on one of those live streams a while back.  Not sure if it will also address number 5.

[Smokey]

One theme that keeps cropping up here is that folks are talking about who the NCOs would supervise or lead since we do not have an enlisted corps.  I think you are not bothering to read his posts or are so wrapped up with emotion that you fail to grasp the concept. He is not looking to demote CAP officers to NCOs or recommend new members come in as enlisted.

He is not looking to start a separate cadre of NCOs.  He is harnessing the knowledge of the NCOs  already present in CAP to HELP those CAP officers without military excperience on how the military operates, what language they speak, and so on. He will merely act as a conduit and lead for the already existing NCOs that are spread out amongst CAP units nationwide.

This is not some grand scheme that some of you are making it out to be. Put your emotions in check, read his posts carefully. He merely wants to coordinate the existing NCOs so that they as a group they can provide more meaningful service to CAP.   The NCOs have a vast amount of knowledge that is going to waste and the Chief sees the opportunity to tap into this brain trust.

It is not a scheme to usurp CAP officers (and he realizes that many are former military, but many are not). I don't see how some folks are reading more into his plan than is there.  I know with some of the things that have gone on we have found hidden agendas but I don't see it here.  

He is offering to arrange for CAP officers a way of using NCOs to assist individuals to learns the whys and hows of the military. Stop looking for a conspiracy.

[TDHenderson]

He is not looking to start a separate cadre of NCOs.  He is harnessing the knowledge of the NCOs  already present in CAP to HELP those CAP officers without military excperience on how the military operates, what language they speak, and so on. He will merely act as a conduit and lead for the already existing NCOs that are spread out amongst CAP units nationwide.

Bingo!  Smokey, you nailed it.  I personally have no real military experience myself (just 8 years as a Cadet) and am here to say that the Chief is providing exactly what you stated in your post.  I rely on his wisdom and experience and am grateful that he is willing to help us out.

[Dragoon]

If the purpose is to harness the military expertise of former NCOs...


....why aren't we trying to harness the military expertise of the former officers?

If the National Commander had set up a "prior service Advisor" with the mission of "harnessing the collective military knowlege of our members with military leadership experience" it would be one thing.

But instead we have the establishment of a senior CAP NCO with the mission of reinvigorating the CAP NCO Corps, it's no wonder that folks are questioning "why CAP NCOs?"

[A.Member]

If the purpose is to harness the military expertise of former NCOs...


....why aren't we trying to harness the military expertise of the former officers?

If the National Commander had set up a "prior service Advisor" with the mission of "harnessing the collective military knowlege of our members with military leadership experience" it would be one thing.

But instead we have the establishment of a senior CAP NCO with the mission of reinvigorating the CAP NCO Corps, it's no wonder that folks are questioning "why CAP NCOs?"

What he said. ^

[Al Sayre]

That is actually a pretty good idea!  While they're at it, they could try and work up a pre-discharge recruiting plan.

[sandman]

And many believe that any civilian outer garment is acceptable with USAF BDUs in the name of "safety" and cost savings - if that's true, let's see it in writing.

Biggest myth in CAP, if it were authorized it would say so like it does for each of the CAP Distinctive Uniforms.  Note that at present this is not true of the CAP Corporate Uniform.

The real answer is supposed to be that if you can't afford an All Weather Coat or Raincoat (You can wear those with both BDUs and Service Uniform.)  You'll wear a CAP Distinctive Uniform for which civilian (non-standard) outerwear has been specifically authorized.

3.  Relook 20-1 in light of the true "average" CAP squadron.  A while back, the average outfit had about 4 active seniors and 8 cadets.  How come 20-1 doesn't explain how to run a unit with that few, as opposed to only modeling the "perfect" 70 man squadron.  Some positions are clearly "nice to have" but aren't labled as such.

IIRC I heard them discuss this on one of those live streams a while back.  Not sure if it will also address number 5.

Addressing just one issue at this time (re: Chief's challenge of five recommendations):
Uniforms....Get rid of all corporate stuff, period. Chief, have the Air Force relax the dismorphic body fat standards and allow everyone to wear the AF uniform. Precedence: Coast Guard Auxiliary. I have witnessed many extremely routund individuals wearing the CG uniform.
We should always encourage members to improve their health (that would give a great mission to us in the new health care track). But let us as volunteers wear the AF uniform. Maybe modify it with a simple shoulder patch shuch as the "overseas" unit patch. And maybe get vanguard to produce metal rank with the red letter "A" such as the CG AUX metal rank.

[flyguy06]

If the purpose is to harness the military expertise of former NCOs...


....why aren't we trying to harness the military expertise of the former officers?

If the National Commander had set up a "prior service Advisor" with the mission of "harnessing the collective military knowlege of our members with military leadership experience" it would be one thing.

But instead we have the establishment of a senior CAP NCO with the mission of reinvigorating the CAP NCO Corps, it's no wonder that folks are questioning "why CAP NCOs?"

We have a Senior military officer advisor. He's called the Commander, CAP-USAF

[RocketPropelled]

1) I'll wear whatever grade insignia, and do whatever duty, that I'm assigned by our higher-ups.  Captain, Airman, Specialist, Auxiliarist, Gofer, Hey You, name it.
2) I'll do whatever job needs to be done, as long as I'm trained, encouraged, empowered, and supported to get it done.

That said:

CAP has an active core of experienced NCOs on board right now.  They're currently wearing stripes, bars, leaves, or eagles -- their choice (or their commander's choice when inking the paperwork). 

Uniform decoration aside, my question is, what can we do as members to help them share their experience, insight, and wisdom that we're not doing already?

The goals I see the Chief articulating are the same goals I think we all share.

The NCO in CAP will do what the NCO does in the military: speak the truth, practice fairness, seek justice, demand accountability, enforce standards in wear of the uniform, customs and courtesies, conduct military formations and ceremonies, mentor officers with leadership skills, and advise commanders in the better interests of CAP, its people, and missions.  This is the road to true professionalism.

If I'm running a squadron, I don't want anyone who can't, or won't, do all those things.  As a commander, it's my job to make sure they're trained to do them all.

If someone's slack on military courtesies, we can beef that up in our current system, with proper guidance and motivation.  I'd say most of that can be chalked up to our cultural schizophrenia -- pick a side, CAP leadership, you're either the Benevolent and Polyester Order of the Silver Wings and Medium Gray Slacks; or you're into military uniform wear, a paramilitary culture, and a willingness to play ball with the Big Boys (NIMS compliance, stan/eval, etc.).

Chief, you wanna resolve something?  Get someone at NHQ to help solve THAT issue, and a lot of the pieces you want will fall into place.  Until then, misfit members will hide behind whichever veil fits their mood.

But seriously -- I believe the Chief seriously underestimates the abilities, motivation, intelligence, and drive of a great majority of the membership if he believes that ANY member, officer or cadet, is incapable of seeking justice, speaking the truth, adhering to standards, and advising their leadership.  These aren't magical NCO qualities, but they are qualities that we should all strive for.  My professional role models are myriad, and a couple of NCOs are in the bunch -- but it's because of the people they are, not because of any insignia they ever wore on a uniform.

If officers and cadets aren't meeting the above expectations, how do we make that happen within the current system?  I believe it comes down to command responsibility, empowerment, and training.  Right now, CAP as a culture tends toward the overly polite, and toward the "local" culture.  From what I've heard, Iowa's success is due to a standardization of training, a clear expectation and execution of leadership, and a paradigm shift of culture.  Did a solid NCO corps help?  Probably, but I'd like to hear some more concrete examples of exactly how -- and how that change was impossible without the direct intervention of specific motivated members because they were NCOs.

Much change can be affected by men and women of moral and ethical strength, diplomacy, leadership experience, and good judgement.  And if someone has those qualities, I don't need to see stripes to recognize their contributions.  But those stripes don't automagically create those qualities.

[Al Sayre]

Right now, CAP as a culture tends toward the overly polite, and toward the "local" culture.

Ain't that the truth!  I had 3 Members quit because I "yelled at them in an email (to the entire membership)" by typing some important things in capital letters.  I figured if they were that sensitive, they really had no business in a quasi-military organization to start with...  3 less problems that I have to deal with.

Tags - MIKE

[JohnKachenmeister]

And many believe that any civilian outer garment is acceptable with USAF BDUs in the name of "safety" and cost savings - if that's true, let's see it in writing.

Biggest myth in CAP, if it were authorized it would say so like it does for each of the CAP Distinctive Uniforms.  Note that at present this is not true of the CAP Corporate Uniform.

The real answer is supposed to be that if you can't afford an All Weather Coat or Raincoat (You can wear those with both BDUs and Service Uniform.)  You'll wear a CAP Distinctive Uniform for which civilian (non-standard) outerwear has been specifically authorized.

3.  Relook 20-1 in light of the true "average" CAP squadron.  A while back, the average outfit had about 4 active seniors and 8 cadets.  How come 20-1 doesn't explain how to run a unit with that few, as opposed to only modeling the "perfect" 70 man squadron.  Some positions are clearly "nice to have" but aren't labled as such.

IIRC I heard them discuss this on one of those live streams a while back.  Not sure if it will also address number 5.

Addressing just one issue at this time (re: Chief's challenge of five recommendations):
Uniforms....Get rid of all corporate stuff, period. Chief, have the Air Force relax the dismorphic body fat standards and allow everyone to wear the AF uniform. Precedence: Coast Guard Auxiliary. I have witnessed many extremely routund individuals wearing the CG uniform.
We should always encourage members to improve their health (that would give a great mission to us in the new health care track). But let us as volunteers wear the AF uniform. Maybe modify it with a simple shoulder patch shuch as the "overseas" unit patch. And maybe get vanguard to produce metal rank with the red letter "A" such as the CG AUX metal rank.

Gray epaulets aren't enough to set us apart?

I agree with you, that those of us over 50 have great difficulty staying within the "10 percent over ENTRY LEVEL basic training standards," and as such, the standard is unrealistic.  I don't know if the Air Force is likely to budge on that issue, though.

[Al Sayre]

If they'd just relax them to the same as for their own people of commensurate age it would solve the problem for 80% of those that currently don't meet the standard.

[Dragoon]

If the purpose is to harness the military expertise of former NCOs...


....why aren't we trying to harness the military expertise of the former officers?

If the National Commander had set up a "prior service Advisor" with the mission of "harnessing the collective military knowlege of our members with military leadership experience" it would be one thing.

But instead we have the establishment of a senior CAP NCO with the mission of reinvigorating the CAP NCO Corps, it's no wonder that folks are questioning "why CAP NCOs?"

We have a Senior military officer advisor. He's called the Commander, CAP-USAF

\


Not the same thing.  CAP-USAF has NCOs as well, so no need for a CAP Chief if you follow that logic.   

If your goal for a CAP NCO Corps has to do with getting prior service NCO experience in CAP AND keeping them exclusive and seperate.....why not do the same thing for prior service Officers?  The CAP-USAF commander hasn't been tasked with created a core of CAP "officers" who are all prior service in order to make CAP better.  Heck we let anybody wear oak leaves - why are we so protective of stripes?

[Dragoon]

1) I'll wear whatever grade insignia, and do whatever duty, that I'm assigned by our higher-ups.  Captain, Airman, Specialist, Auxiliarist, Gofer, Hey You, name it.
2) I'll do whatever job needs to be done, as long as I'm trained, encouraged, empowered, and supported to get it done.

That said:

CAP has an active core of experienced NCOs on board right now.  They're currently wearing stripes, bars, leaves, or eagles -- their choice (or their commander's choice when inking the paperwork). 

Uniform decoration aside, my question is, what can we do as members to help them share their experience, insight, and wisdom that we're not doing already?

The goals I see the Chief articulating are the same goals I think we all share.

The NCO in CAP will do what the NCO does in the military: speak the truth, practice fairness, seek justice, demand accountability, enforce standards in wear of the uniform, customs and courtesies, conduct military formations and ceremonies, mentor officers with leadership skills, and advise commanders in the better interests of CAP, its people, and missions.  This is the road to true professionalism.

If I'm running a squadron, I don't want anyone who can't, or won't, do all those things.  As a commander, it's my job to make sure they're trained to do them all.

If someone's slack on military courtesies, we can beef that up in our current system, with proper guidance and motivation.  I'd say most of that can be chalked up to our cultural schizophrenia -- pick a side, CAP leadership, you're either the Benevolent and Polyester Order of the Silver Wings and Medium Gray Slacks; or you're into military uniform wear, a paramilitary culture, and a willingness to play ball with the Big Boys (NIMS compliance, stan/eval, etc.).

Chief, you wanna resolve something?  Get someone at NHQ to help solve THAT issue, and a lot of the pieces you want will fall into place.  Until then, misfit members will hide behind whichever veil fits their mood.

But seriously -- I believe the Chief seriously underestimates the abilities, motivation, intelligence, and drive of a great majority of the membership if he believes that ANY member, officer or cadet, is incapable of seeking justice, speaking the truth, adhering to standards, and advising their leadership.  These aren't magical NCO qualities, but they are qualities that we should all strive for.  My professional role models are myriad, and a couple of NCOs are in the bunch -- but it's because of the people they are, not because of any insignia they ever wore on a uniform.

If officers and cadets aren't meeting the above expectations, how do we make that happen within the current system?  I believe it comes down to command responsibility, empowerment, and training.  Right now, CAP as a culture tends toward the overly polite, and toward the "local" culture.  From what I've heard, Iowa's success is due to a standardization of training, a clear expectation and execution of leadership, and a paradigm shift of culture.  Did a solid NCO corps help?  Probably, but I'd like to hear some more concrete examples of exactly how -- and how that change was impossible without the direct intervention of specific motivated members because they were NCOs.

Much change can be affected by men and women of moral and ethical strength, diplomacy, leadership experience, and good judgement.  And if someone has those qualities, I don't need to see stripes to recognize their contributions.  But those stripes don't automagically create those qualities.

Well said.

[Smokey]

Kack,

I thought you got down to fighting weight and were a lean mean  fighting machine??

[DNall]

2.  CAP desperately needs its professional development system revised to include practical tasks like activity planning, OPORDER writing, and preparing correspondence.  Much like the revised ES system, our level 1 and 2 needs more hands on practical stuff designed to give members the real skills to run good squadrons.

That's AFIADL13, and yes it should be a requirement of Level 1. I got no problem updating it with practical examples rather than the abstract ones they use, but you should be doing that locally. You should put people in this course as soon as they join & have them do some practical example practice docs & excerscises to better understand the material & how to use the T&Q.

3.  Relook 20-1 in light of the true "average" CAP squadron.  A while back, the average outfit had about 4 active seniors and 8 cadets.  How come 20-1 doesn't explain how to run a unit with that few, as opposed to only modeling the "perfect" 70 man squadron.  Some positions are clearly "nice to have" but aren't labled as such.

5.  Relook all requirements levied on the squadron from a manpower/work hour standpoint.  This is related to #3.  Each staff section keeps inventing new reports and requirements for the squadron to perform without checking to see if there's actually time and manpower at the units to get them done.  This results in a heck of a lot of "pencil whipping" because folks simply can't do it all right.  Any attempt to add a requirement to squadron's workload needs to go through some central activity to determine its impact on the poor guys at the bottom.

I think if you'll look, you'll find that a unit w/ 4 seniors & 8 cadets is incapable of functioning at minimums & should be shut down. I've talked about this before because the MML is so misleading & we push resources around/manage personnel/etc all off that false data & human conjecture.

I'd tell you that you DO have to have a certain staff level to run a legit Sq, and that's what both 20-1 & all the reporting/program/paperwork requirements are based on. That's why there's minimum numbers to be called a Sq, and those are really too low.

What I'd favor is online reporting of meeting attendence... which allows application of a standard for active versus inactive... which tells me which unit w/ 60 on the books has 4/8 & which one has 20/35. That then tells me which units I need to consolidate (by making them a flight & sharing a single staff w/ other such units), and which can stand up w/ some help. Tells me which Sq CCs are doing well & which ones suck - rather then now which is completely the opposite.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Kack,

I thought you got down to fighting weight and were a lean mean  fighting machine??

There was a Christmas cease-fire, but I'm back on the treadmill now.