NCO's in CAP - the challenges

[Dragoon]

Hope we can avoid the flaming that killed the last thread.

Speaking as an "RLO" (cute term, that), here are some of the challenges I see associated with creating true CAP NCOs.

1.  NCOs come from the ranks - that's where their core strength comes from (as opposed to officers, who enter as managers).  It gives them a "muddy boots" feel of what the rank and file airmen have to do.  The current model of CAP NCOs doesn't have them coming from the "ranks" of CAP members.  They certainly will know no more about the challenges and duties of the average CAP member than any officer will.  Perhaps less, since most officers "came through the ranks" of CAP.

2.  Having NCOs means designating NCO positions - positions that belong to the NCO corps and are NOT filled by officer.  What does a unit do if they don't happen to have an NCO handy to fill the job?

3.  There is no CAP enlisted force to manage and care for.  What exactly do the NCOs advise the officers on?

4.  In a corporate CAP full of golf shirts, an optional rank system, and no regulatory authority commensurate with rank, how the heck can we be "more military" without major changes to the by laws and regulations?


(By the way, I got to peruse the mid-1940s CAP membership manual.  Back then, unless you were a pilot, everyone came in as enlisted.  Pilots got to be flight officers.    Stripes were earned by accumulating some level of "points" with points given for everything from Radio Classes to First Aid Training.  Officers were designated to fill specific positions in the unit, and the grades were determined by the size of the unit.  I couldn't figure out if you gave the grade back when you stepped out of the officer job.)

[lordmonar]

As a RLSNCO, I have got concur with your post.

Further more...if we limit CAP NCO to ex-or current RLNCOs we form a cadre of untouchables.  No one can join them who has not served in the military and they will soon become a little clique inside the squadron.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I respect you guys for your knowledge, but I'm not so ready to cut the idea off at the knees.

First of all, we have ALWAYS had NCO's in the CAP in one form or another.  Secondly, some NCO's are genuinely reluctant to suddenly be second lieutenants.  Thirdly, the AF is a little different from some of the other services with respect to the authority given to senior non-commissioned officers.  AF NCO's are frequently placed in management positions, under very loose and intermittent officer supervision.  I don't see any problem with the current regulations allowing RLNCO's to keep their stripes.

That being said, they place themselves in an unusual position.  They can't be promoted, so where is their incentive to grow and learn the CAP way of doing things?  More ribbons?

Having a senior NCO to motivate and monitor the development of NCO's, and to give them guidance in their unique role in CAP, sounds like a good idea.

It sounds, from Chief Chiafo's comments, that a greater role is anticipated, perhaps even to develop a separate career track for NCO's.  But since we don't know what that role might be, its a little hard to discuss it without random and wild speculation.

As for right now, though, a CAP member wearing E-7 stripes can be, by the Air Force, assumed to have been an E-7 in the RealMilitary.  The same cannot be said of an officer wearing bars, tracks, leaves, birds, or stars.  That automatically extends a certain level of credibility to the CAP NCO that is not enjoyed by the CAP officer.

[Major Carrales]

In my short 8 1/2 CAP career I have found CAP NCOs to be among the hardest working most ardent CAP members in the Patrol. 

I think the current practice of "honoring" active duty/retired NCO's with their military rank is the best practice at present. 

Short of a total restructure of the CAP Senior Program, there is no solution nor mechanism to create any other type of CAP-NCO.

[DNall]

I'll give this one a try... and start it by saying plz all keep this one professional.

Hope we can avoid the flaming that killed the last thread.

Speaking as an "RLO" (cute term, that), here are some of the challenges I see associated with creating true CAP NCOs.

1.  NCOs come from the ranks - that's where their core strength comes from (as opposed to officers, who enter as managers).  It gives them a "muddy boots" feel of what the rank and file airmen have to do.  The current model of CAP NCOs doesn't have them coming from the "ranks" of CAP members.  They certainly will know no more about the challenges and duties of the average CAP member than any officer will.  Perhaps less, since most officers "came through the ranks" of CAP.

I certainly know what you mean, but let me give you another angle. If this semi-independent NCO corps is out there doing what CAP-RAPs did (& still do to the extent they're around)... isn't down in the Sqs, outside the political BS, isn't that where you get your boots dirty? I realize these guys wouldn't be coming up from OUR ranks getting their boots dirty in OUR mud, but theoretically they could be the bridge between the field & the command echelons, thereby short-circuiting a LOT of political BS, and by speaking truth to power & holding firm a high standards... I don't know if it works or not, but it's a good idea & it's bold. We haven't seen a lot of that lately so I'm for giving it a shot. Big picture though I think it's just one element of many you're going to need to get CAP really on track (however you want to define that).

2.  Having NCOs means designating NCO positions - positions that belong to the NCO corps and are NOT filled by officer.  What does a unit do if they don't happen to have an NCO handy to fill the job?

3.  There is no CAP enlisted force to manage and care for.  What exactly do the NCOs advise the officers on?

My impression has been that the chief is leaning in toward the AF 1Sgt system more than the broad NCO concept. That would mean representing lowly members to command - seeking ustice, fair treatment, universal standards, etc; & advising command levels on needs of the force rather than needs of the middle men.

I do however recognize that tehre are currently too few NCOs to make wide scale impact & distribution is a problem. Even if you could get members to "take back theri stripes," I still think you're going to have to go recruiting to fill teh need, and that is going to require a defined concept. I think that's what the fishing over here is about, looking for input on the scop/scale/etc that should be sought.

4.  In a corporate CAP full of golf shirts, an optional rank system, and no regulatory authority commensurate with rank, how the heck can we be "more military" without major changes to the by laws and regulations?

It's been changing significantly for 20 years, and in the wrong direction. I think it's about time for some swing back. We've already paid a big price fo going to far & we're out on the edge now. It's time for big change & for a multitude of reasons. That doesn't have to be hard or painful though, but it is VERY necessary to preserve & protect CAP.

Forgve me if I brissle a bit at that way you put that - "optional rank system" & such. I know it's messed up right now, but there are consequences for not following orders & you can choose to teach your members that they are in a military-like organization with similar expectations & that there ARE consequences for everything they do, & you can back that up locally. If you wanted to do it in your Sq by force of will alone you could. It's ahrder to scale that up, but not really a lot more complicated. CAP is what we make it be, & we don't HAVE to have force of law or anything else to indoctrinate our members to the correct way of thinking. It's doable is all I'm saying, & in theory not all that complicated.

they will soon become a little clique inside the squadron.

My impression was that, like Iowa field grade officers, they would not be assigned to Sqs or accountable to any but other NCOs up a seperate chain to CCM, who reports directly to CAP/CC. Maybe I'm wrong about that, & it has it's own problems if I'm not, but I think they're aiming pretty high on this one.

[RiverAux]

Anyone know how rank of CAP NCOs is indicated in the CAPWATCH database?  Either there aren't any in my Wing (which is a possibility -- I don't recall seeing any) or they are designated as Senior Members.  If there were an NCO, would it indicate their rank in the rank column?

[DNall]

They're listed as SMs. Promotion authority is local & paperwork never leaves the unit. That's why NHQ will be confused if you tell them you want to revert, cause they don't deal with it & all you're really asking them to do is take you from Major to SM & indicate it isn't for disciplinary reasons. It isn't tracked at all anywhere that I know of.

I think one key thing to establish initially is can they go back to the O-grade down teh road if this doesn't work out or they change tehir mind.

[RiverAux]

At a minimum we should change the system to indicate their actual CAP rank.  Their is a separate column in that table that indicates "Senior" or "Cadet" so its not like they could get confused about their status. 

[mikeylikey]

(By the way, I got to peruse the mid-1940s CAP membership manual.  Back then, unless you were a pilot, everyone came in as enlisted.  Pilots got to be flight officers.    Stripes were earned by accumulating some level of "points" with points given for everything from Radio Classes to First Aid Training.  Officers were designated to fill specific positions in the unit, and the grades were determined by the size of the unit.  I couldn't figure out if you gave the grade back when you stepped out of the officer job.)

I have a ton of those old manuals, ranging from the first one up to the 70's.  I would love to scan them and place them online.  Anyone know if that has already been done somewhere?  They are really neat to explore the past with. 

[Pylon]

One of the main challenges I see is that the CAP system right now is not set up for two different sets of ranks/grades.  Yes, we technically currently allow for CAP NCOs and we also have Flight Officers, but in most units, many commanders and CAP members don't know what to do with them, who they are, or even how to address them half the time.

Because we have the no-grade-wearing golf shirt combo, and that no real authority derives from our earned grade in CAP, and because of a host of other reasons, one has to wonder what our rank system ought to be.  The way is stands now, our senior member grades could be A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, and I and it wouldn't change the way the system operates.

There is a bigger, underlying issue besides wanting to simply graft a formal NCO program onto our current set-up.  I think doing so would only be prolonging the development of a solution to our current structural issues, which sooner or later need to be addressed.  A number of proposals have been tossed out and the arguments have gone back and forth on this issue.

But I see a nunber of issues with simply "adding on" a formal NCO program to our current structure, none of which are a personal opposition to CAP having NCOs, but rather a concern for better organizing the way CAP does things.

[MIKE]

They're listed as SMs. Promotion authority is local & paperwork never leaves the unit.

Had a MSgt in my old unit who was listed as such on eServices... Probably an anomaly.

[Major Carrales]

They're listed as SMs. Promotion authority is local & paperwork never leaves the unit.

Had a MSgt in my old unit who was listed as such on eServices... Probably an anomaly.

Mike,

A ruling if you will.  Look at the latest CAPF 2.  It has a section for NCOs and describes that one is to wait until verification is received.

http://level2.cap.gov/documents/u_090403102245.dot

Does this mean it might be set in and recorded if sent in with proper documentation?

[MIKE]

I suppose so.

[DNall]

A ruling if you will.  Look at the latest CAPF 2.  It has a section for NCOs and describes that one is to wait until verification is received.

Does this mean it might be set in and recorded if sent in with proper documentation?

Verification FROM THE MILITARY, meaning you stapled a copy of their DD214 to the form & put it in their file.

If you send a signed information copy to NHQ they might record it in eServices, but it doesn't matter cause the signed form is the final word.

Not that it bears on the conversation

[Dragoon]

Points worthy of counterpoints

I'll give this one a try... and start it by saying plz all keep this one professional.
I certainly know what you mean, but let me give you another angle. If this semi-independent NCO corps is out there doing what CAP-RAPs did (& still do to the extent they're around)... isn't down in the Sqs, outside the political BS, isn't that where you get your boots dirty? I realize these guys wouldn't be coming up from OUR ranks getting their boots dirty in OUR mud, but theoretically they could be the bridge between the field & the command echelons, thereby short-circuiting a LOT of political BS, and by speaking truth to power & holding firm a high standards... I don't know if it works or not, but it's a good idea & it's bold. We haven't seen a lot of that lately so I'm for giving it a shot. Big picture though I think it's just one element of many you're going to need to get CAP really on track (however you want to define that).

The argument you are making here doesn't require NCOs - it's an argument for an independant oversight (IG?) kinda group that helps standardize things.   You could do it with ex military NCOs, or ex military officers, or former GAO auditors or just about any professional group.  Don't think for a minute that NCOs hold some kind of lock on "speaking the truth" over any other group of folks - it's more a matter of where they stand in the organization than what they wear on their sleeves.

My impression has been that the chief is leaning in toward the AF 1Sgt system more than the broad NCO concept. That would mean representing lowly members to command - seeking ustice, fair treatment, universal standards, etc; & advising command levels on needs of the force rather than needs of the middle men.

When the "lowly member" is an officer, why should you use an NCO to represent him?  Our force has no enlisted.

It's been changing significantly for 20 years, and in the wrong direction. I think it's about time for some swing back. We've already paid a big price fo going to far & we're out on the edge now. It's time for big change & for a multitude of reasons. That doesn't have to be hard or painful though, but it is VERY necessary to preserve & protect CAP.

I absolutely agree that being more professional and accountable would be a big help.  25 years in CAP (and 20+ years in the Army) have not convinced me that being more "military" is a cure all.  It's one method - but there are many professional and accountable organizations out there that don't wear uniforms at all.

Forgve me if I brissle a bit at that way you put that - "optional rank system" & such. I know it's messed up right now, but there are consequences for not following orders & you can choose to teach your members that they are in a military-like organization with similar expectations & that there ARE consequences for everything they do, & you can back that up locally. If you wanted to do it in your Sq by force of will alone you could. It's ahrder to scale that up, but not really a lot more complicated. CAP is what we make it be, & we don't HAVE to have force of law or anything else to indoctrinate our members to the correct way of thinking. It's doable is all I'm saying, & in theory not all that complicated.

Here's the big zinger, and I understand you would bristle at it, because it is truly annoying.  But still true...

CAP in rank has no power.  Zero.  Take a look at the constitution, bylaws and regulations.  Unlike the real military, a CAP member does not have to obey the orders of higher ranking officers.  He merely has to obey those appointed to positions over him.

A Captain can completely ignore a Lieutenant Colonel.  However, he can't ignore his First Lieutenant squadron commander!

An Incident Commander can be a senior member without rank, and boss around everyone including generals, as long as they aren't currently in the command structure.

In other words, our grade means nothing.

Could it be otherwise - sure.  In fact I'm all for it.  But without fixing this problem, adding other trappings of the military is unlikely to be really effective.

[A.Member]

Here's the big zinger, and I understand you would bristle at it, because it is truly annoying.  But still true...

CAP in rank has no power.  Zero.  Take a look at the constitution, bylaws and regulations.  Unlike the real military, a CAP member does not have to obey the orders of higher ranking officers.  He merely has to obey those appointed to positions over him.

A Captain can completely ignore a Lieutenant Colonel.  However, he can't ignore his First Lieutenant squadron commander!

An Incident Commander can be a senior member without rank, and boss around everyone including generals, as long as they aren't currently in the command structure.

In other words, our grade means nothing.

Could it be otherwise - sure.  In fact I'm all for it.  But without fixing this problem, adding other trappings of the military is unlikely to be really effective.

I agree with your last point completely.  It is a huge challenge to our organization and one that needs to be addressed. 

Unfortunately, the solution means that many toes will be stepped on (and I'm fine with that).  That is because in order to correct the problem, real standards have to be implemented.  There are people in Group, Wing, Squadron commands (and maybe all the way up to National) that, quite frankly, don't possess the skills that are truly required for such a position.   In the "real world", they may be the line worked at an assembly plant - a perfectly fine job, I'm sure, but one that may not require the managerial or decision making skills of a leadership position.  Yet, when they come to CAP, they get to "play" "Major" and/or even "Commander".  Certainly that isn't every case but there are enough examples to illustrate that this is a problem.  There is no formalized process for truly developing those skills.

Unlike the "real military", rank is essentially awarded to anyone that completes the correct amount of paperwork.   Instead, there should only be a certain number of positions available at any given rank - the paperwork should be the minimum requirement (BTW, AFAIDL 13 should be one of the minimum requirements to wear the butterbar and the course should be supplemented with formal classroom sessions - not to be waived unless a person has held a real Commission).  Our cadets must go before promotion boards, why should the "officers" be any different?  Still, the trouble with this is that unlike the "real military"  there is no retirement - especially from the higher ranks.  The organization ends up top heavy.  Quite frankly, the attrition from the higher ranks is more likely to be the result of someone dying than it is stepping away from the organization.   So, the trick is, how do you manage the ranks to get a proper system in order?  I don't know the answer but if we could figure it out and get it implemented, I think the organization would benefit significantly.  The idea of returning senior enlisted ranks is appealing but still does not solve the problem.  Duties/responsibility perhaps should be commensurate, in some way, to rank.  Regardless, rank must have some meaning.  We do ourselves and the real services a disservice when it doesn't.

If that issue is solved, it may go a long way in solving a good number of our other issues.

Another issue I see, and you can often see it emphasized through discussions on this board, is that we get too many non-rated (non-pilot) persons in Command positions.  We are the Civil Air Patrol, not the Civil Ground Patrol or anything else.  The organization's roots are in flying.  Now, I'm not saying that a person must be a pilot to be a Commander but there should be a much higher percentage than there are currently.  Far too often I see Wing Commanders that don't fly and have no real interest in it.  That should be very much the exception but I don't think it is.  In the "real" AF, it's pretty tough to rise to the top if you're not wearing wings, just as it's difficult to rise in the Army if you don't have jump wings.   

[Major Carrales]

Actually, the term Civil Air Patrol is all that inclusive...

Civil- Community Service, or rather Civil Defense in the face of challenges originally presented by WWII.

Air- The harnessed energy of the nation's private pilots organized to serve.

Patrol- Both as a term modified by the word "Air" and as its own.  The original CAP had mounted units, forest units and a host of other Civil Defense jobs.  It goes to figure that aircraft alone are relatively useless as a patrol unless they can 1) Communicate (the COMM is as much a part) and 2) someone to communicate with (thus Ground teams are a part of it)

I cannot subscribe to the idea that AIR OPS is all.  It is a very big part of it all...especially when we also add the term "USAF Auxiliary" and the three missions which go far beyond merely flying. 

I will not take anything away from our pilots, but in a world where there are more squadrons than aircraft it goes to show that some units will have to have other focus.

Second...this desire for a NCO corps in CAP is somewhat misguided.  Ours does not operate as a traditional military structure like the USAF.  If we allowed everyone to enter as a PFC/Airman, the need for NCOs would be evident.  But since we enter everyone starting as an Officer and reserve the NCO structure as an honor to prior service...having a group of people as NCOs would be viewed as disingenuous at best and poser/pretenderism at worse.  That would be my fear.

One must ask themselves this question...
Is the call for NCOs a call for a needed element of CAP membership, or a desire to go around wearing chevrons?

We need to look critically at his.

Now, if we offer the option to prior service CAP members and create a mechinism for advancement (SDFs offer such promotions...one's Federal Service would be unchanged but their CAP NCO status would reflect Professional development)...that might be a way to do it.  The NCO promotions would be based on valid prior service and thus be viewed as more "genuine."

Also, CAP would need some distinctive chevrons to avoid CAP NCOs confusion.

[Monty]

My most proud accomplishment in my Air Force service, even exceeding my "beating the odds" and earning an enlisted commissioning program opportunity, was earning SSgt - so let it be known UP FRONT that no joy (for me) ever compared with competing for and earning an NCO grade.

That being said...

I do not support (in my heart) CAP senior member NCOs resting on their past accomplishments as they progress towards a future in CAP.

Firstly, a CAP NCO is limited in his/her ability to progress within the program.  Granted, many seniors are about as proactive about their own professional development as a turtle, but I see no reason to compound the problem with stripes (i.e., forget NSC...it's for Majors and above with the exception of seldom-granted waivers from Region Commanders.)

Second of all, I have heartburn with ANY military member, officer or NCO, thinking that their military career (apples) is directly applicable in CAP (oranges.)  There is a distinct tenor associated with being a CAP senior that is hardly akin to the demeanor used as a military member.  To rest on one's laurels and feel that there is a direct transferral of mentality from one to the other is a gross misunderstanding in my opinion.

Third, I have yet to see how an NCO senior has any real use within our watered-down officer/senior system.  As seniors, there is in essence, no other authority via rank 'n grade except that which is granted through command tenures (and whatever the commander delegates to others.)  A CAP NCO working as a Public Affairs monkey has as much reach and ability - or lack thereof - as would a 2d Lt Public Affairs monkey....or even a Lt Col Public Affairs volunteer.

In my estimation, the difference boils down to nothing more than a guy or gal that wants to look different and rest on what they did.....and such a choice, while an entitled one, is essentially a disservice to CAP.  No CAP NCO can participate to his/her full potential and further, robs me (as a commander) of my ability to motivate cadets to progress within the program.  "Sir, why go beyond C/CMSgt....Chief 60-year old doesn't participate in the senior grades like everyone else, so why must I as a cadet?  I'm top dog!"

I've always had problems with folks trying to cross the CAP "ghostbusters" streams...  I will ALWAYS be kind, polite, and professional to any member of CAP (even the butt-nuggets that I see in person and often, here on these forums...at least, to the best of my ability.)  All the same, my kindness, politeness, and professionalism to a fellow volunteer is simply due in no small part to the fact that they are fellow volunteers - none of these attributes flows to others on account that they wear stars, bars, leaves, or sleeves.

It's the CAP way....which differs strikingly from how I would approach the same subject during my blue suiter days.

FWIW...and worth the price you paid for it, those are my thoughts on the matter.... 

[A.Member]

I cannot subscribe to the idea that AIR OPS is all.  It is a very big part of it all...especially when we also add the term "USAF Auxiliary" and the three missions which go far beyond merely flying. 

I will not take anything away from our pilots, but in a world where there are more squadrons than aircraft it goes to show that some units will have to have other focus.

I don't disagree.  Certainly, there are other aspects to the organization but fundamentally our core is in aviation - and that's were all those other aspects point back to when you drill it down.  It's the core behind everything we do.  It's why we were created and why we do what we do...many seem to forget this.

[Major Carrales]

A.member

Yes, we're all in it together.  There are people who actually like paperwork and finance and the like.  (not I)  I say let them have at it.

Major Carrales

[capchiro]

Having had a father that was a bombadier and navigator that flew out of England and Korea and risked his arse on the line several times, I am not sure that using pilot status as some guide to command is a good idea.  Not everyone in the military got to go to pilot training.  This was not always their fault and did not reflect any less quality as a commander.  Dad did not rise as high as he would have had he been a pilot in the real air force.  Was this fair?  He certainly put his life on the line for his country in two wars.  I also have a son that graduated from the Air Force Academy in 1991.  His class was the first class to suffer the brunt of Air Force pilot cuts.  Most classes prior to his had 60-70% go to pilot training.  His class had 25%.  He went to missle silos.  Does his lack of pilot status make him less thna a good leader/commander?  We must also remember that we have three missions and they don't require a pilot to  command all of them.   So, being a mission observer (although not current), and a squadron commander, I am against requiring a commander to be a pilot.  One of the differences in a CAP non-pilot and CAP pilot is money.  almost anyone with enough money can become a  CAP pilot, thereby allowing a rich boy to "purchase" a command.  CAP pilot status does not reflect any more leadership training than any other senior member.  this is not saying we don't need pilots, just that they are not gods.  Now, as far as having NCO's in CAP, I think it is s good idea, but not in the same status as in the military.  One must remember that CAP is a voluntary organization and NCO's have been trained to accomplish their missions by "intimidating" lower ranking enlisted types.  Won't work in CAP.  CAP requires leadership that motivates a member to "want" to do something, not scares them into compliance.  Leadership in CAP is an art and comes with much experience including the ability to persuade.  Most seniors that work 40 hours a week are not going to join an organization, not get paid, and be yelled at.  If they wanted that, they could join the National Guard and be working toward retirement.  JMHO.               

[NEBoom]

My most proud accomplishment in my Air Force service, even exceeding my "beating the odds" and earning an enlisted commissioning program opportunity, was earning SSgt - so let it be known UP FRONT that no joy (for me) ever compared with competing for and earning an NCO grade.

That being said...

I do not support (in my heart) CAP senior member NCOs resting on their past accomplishments as they progress towards a future in CAP.

Firstly, a CAP NCO is limited in his/her ability to progress within the program.
<snip>

Second of all, I have heartburn with ANY military member, officer or NCO, thinking that their military career (apples) is directly applicable in CAP (oranges.)  There is a distinct tenor associated with being a CAP senior that is hardly akin to the demeanor used as a military member.  To rest on one's laurels and feel that there is a direct transferral of mentality from one to the other is a gross misunderstanding in my opinion.

Third, I have yet to see how an NCO senior has any real use within our watered-down officer/senior system.  As seniors, there is in essence, no other authority via rank 'n grade except that which is granted through command tenures (and whatever the commander delegates to others.)
<snip>

I've always had problems with folks trying to cross the CAP "ghostbusters" streams...  I will ALWAYS be kind, polite, and professional to any member of CAP (even the butt-nuggets that I see in person and often, here on these forums...at least, to the best of my ability.)  All the same, my kindness, politeness, and professionalism to a fellow volunteer is simply due in no small part to the fact that they are fellow volunteers - none of these attributes flows to others on account that they wear stars, bars, leaves, or sleeves.

It's the CAP way....which differs strikingly from how I would approach the same subject during my blue suiter days.

FWIW...and worth the price you paid for it, those are my thoughts on the matter.... 

You're hitting here on the major reason why this isn't going to work, at least not until a major overhaul of the senior member officer structure is accomplished (which, if I may make an understatement, wont' be for a while).  The basic culture of CAP will have to be addressed first.  This would require the leadership in CAP to drop the politics and all the uniform changes, and actually work together as a team for the greater good of CAP (rather than themselves).  Call me a cynic, but I think lightning will strike me twice at least before that happens.

On a slightly different subject, one of the ideas being put forth in the locked thread was that the CAP NCO corps will somehow be "above the fray" and act as a "moral compass" for the organization.  I don't know from where all these perfect NCO beings will come, but my guess is the type of person we'd need for this will be few and far between.  Amongst all the noise of that thread, that was my understanding of what the NCO corps would mainly be used for.  I'm sorry, but under current conditions, I just don't see that happening.  An NCO corps coming in to "clean house" would be received about as well as anyone else who's ever tried to "clean house" in CAP.  Again call me a cynic, but this NCO corps would be viewed as a bunch of outsiders coming in to tell us how to run things.

OK enough rambling.  I've wasted yet another hour of my time on here (I'm starting to think it's a sickness of some sort... )

Good day to all!

[Chief Chiafos]

Gentlemen,

What I know about computers and websites you can write on a thumbnail.  It took me a while to figure out the Chief's Corner has been "closed".  Pity.  That was my first venture into the realm of the cyber and a real learning expirence.  I want to thank all of you who emailed me - you are the heart and soul of CAP, you are the doers who somehow keep CAP going - you are the hope for CAPs future.

It seems that most people have a hard time grasping the NCO concept - its simple: Leadership, leadership, leadership.  That isn't suprising in an organization starved for it.  A corps of seasoned professionals who lead by example, and impart those skills to all willing to learn.  To re-blue CAP in the military traditions from which it sprang - to regain the confidence, even the pride, of the Air Force.

I have also learned that these websites are high maintenance and the message soon drowns in irrelavent noise.

There is nothing wrong with CAP that cannot be fixed - another concept difficult for some to embrace.  There are those who love the chaos because they can escape accountability by hiding in it.  They are free to do as they choose and the thought of giving that up is hateful to them - so they stoke the fires of controversy, quibble, split hairs, and argue about where to put the pencils.

I leave you with this bit of wisdom form Theodore Roosevelt:

"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."

[Smokey]

I think some are missing the point in the Chief's message....Chief correct me if I am wrong.....

I don't think he is proposing starting up a whole new corps of NCOs.  I think he wants to use the existing NCOs and those who may join in the future (who have been RLNCOs) as a resource. Use them to HELP direct the CAP officers, especially those without military training, to perform better.  They would be a resource in miliatry leadership, procedures, etc that would be better than just book learning.

I don't believe the Chief's proposal is to have a corp of NCOs that would be a separate entity, but a manner of harnessing their knowledge to ASSIST those CAP officers in the ways and whys of military operational issues and leadership.  Face it....for even the folks here who a corporate to the bone and would love to divorce the AF, we are still tied to them.  If we want to make things work together we need to speak the same language, dine at the same table and not act the like spoiled out of control child that is relegated to the closet.  I think the chief wants to help us with our relationship with our parent (AF) by tapping into the existing plethora of knowledge the NCOs have.

I dont' think his desire is nefarious or evil.  This does not appear to be one of those crazy schemes thought up by some.  Merely a way to use skill for everyones benifit.

[Chief Chiafos]

Smokey has sumed up all I have been saying - far better than I could.  All I can say is this: when the Iowa Wing got smart and began asking questions from members who were former NCOs the lights came on for the first time.  NCOs have revolutionized the Iowa Wing.  Morale is sky-high, nothing seems impossible, the old CAP - full of bickering and strife, is fading away.  You can do it to.

[JohnKachenmeister]

"To re-blue the CAP..."

Dang, Chief!

That's what I've been saying for YEARS!

At least there will be TWO of us that they can burn as heretics.

[A.Member]

"To re-blue the CAP..."

Dang, Chief!

That's what I've been saying for YEARS!

At least there will be TWO of us that they can burn as heretics.

I'm in agreement with that need as well, even if I remain unconvinced that his approach will be the one to accomplish that.  Actually, it's my belief that most members desire such a "re-bluing". 

Analogy:  We all agree that we're going to the store but we each want to take our own cars and our own route to get there.

[flyguy06]

.  One must remember that CAP is a voluntary organization and NCO's have been trained to accomplish their missions by "intimidating" lower ranking enlisted types.  Won't work in CAP.  CAP requires leadership that motivates a member to "want" to do something, not scares them into compliance.  Leadership in CAP is an art and comes with much experience including the ability to persuade.  Most seniors that work 40 hours a week are not going to join an organization, not get paid, and be yelled at.  If they wanted that, they could join the National Guard and be working toward retirement.  JMHO.               

Sir,

Iresect you,you are a friend, but I have to take exception to your comment aabout NCO's intimidating soldiers. NCO's are professional leaders. No where in the leadership Principles of any service does it say to "intimidate" junior enlisted. NCO's lead by providing purpose, direction, and  motivation. Maybe its the motivation part that you are confussing with "intimidation" Remeber that basic Training is not the orm for the military. Basic Training is  unique  environment nto itself. Yes, NCO's have to treat trainees a certain way in basic, because it is an indoctrination to a culture that these young civilians are not accustomed to. A dril Sergenats job is to take white people, black people, rich people, poor people, people from New York City, and people from the moutnains of Tennessee and make them into a team. You all these people wih very different backgrounds and the DI has to make them into a team. The only way to do that effectivley is to break them all down on the same level and build them into ane team. So that rich kid who probably never did a days worth of hard labor is treated no differently than that pooor kid wh probably never had a fancy outfit before. They are devleoped into one team.

Now after basic, NCO's do not go around yelling and sceaming at troops unless it is warrented. Now, of course if a soldier gets out of line yes a NCO will step back into that role and put him back in line. Life in everyday military is a professional environment with mutual respect regardless of rank.  If a soldier gets out of line then yes an NCO will put hm back in line.If I (an LT) get out of line, a MAJ will put me back in line. But its not as if its a daily dose of stress eeryday.

So, please never think an NCO's job is to intimidate That is far far from the truth. NCO's lead by example and make it happen.

[lordmonar]

I guess I am going to reserve any more comments on this topic until I see somthing more substantial in what the NCO program will be all about.  What exactly will the duties of these members be?  How will they integrate with the local squadrons and how will their professional development be managed.

I have read a lot about what Iowa is doing for CAP and for the most part I am pleased and excited about the results.  If we can capture the lessons learned and then a comprehensive plan and vision written up and sent out through official channels.  That I would like to see.

[Chief Chiafos]

Why do you have to wait for something in writing?  I don't get it.  If you have former NCOs simply use them.  What is so difficult about that?

When I returned to CAP and attended my first meeting I was horrified by what they were calling "opening ceremoines".  As most new members, I just assumed; well, that's the way things are done in CAP - But I knew better.  After a few more meetings I could no longer stand it!  I told the Squadron CC his formations and courtesies to the colors sucked, and sucked big time.  Fine, he said, fix it.  Our formations, and uniforms, are now as good as, and in someways better than, the Air Force!  Yea, that's right, BETTER than the Air Force.

The CC said, Chief do what you want - get this goat heard organized.  I trained our Officer staff and cadets in drill, ceremonies, customs, courtesies, and leadership. I was amazed!  They all set high standards for themselves, and then began to demand it from the slackers.  A NEW culture was born in the 78th Cadet Squadron, and once properly trained, that culture now perpetuates itself!

The squadron is PROUD!  It bought a Squadron flag and Guidon.  The competition by cadets for the priviledge to carry the guidon is fierce.  THEY decided only the cadet with the best uniform can carry it.

You want change, you want to be better, get off your cans and just DO IT.  That form of behavior gentlemen, is called LEADERSHIP!

[MIKE]

What I know about computers and websites you can write on a thumbnail.  It took me a while to figure out the Chief's Corner has been "closed".  Pity.

Sorry Chief, had to do it.  I think you'll learn how stuff works eventually... Most people pick up on stuff after they have been on a board for a while...  Others are just n00bs.   

I have also learned that these websites are high maintenance and the message soon drowns in irrelavent noise.

Learns fast, he does. 

[lordmonar]

Why do you have to wait for something in writing?  I don't get it.  If you have former NCOs simply use them.  What is so difficult about that?

When I returned to CAP and attended my first meeting I was horrified by what they were calling "opening ceremoines".  As most new members, I just assumed; well, that's the way things are done in CAP - But I knew better.  After a few more meetings I could no longer stand it!  I told the Squadron CC his formations and courtesies to the colors sucked, and sucked big time.  Fine, he said, fix it.  Our formations, and uniforms, are now as good as, and in someways better than, the Air Force!  Yea, that's right, BETTER than the Air Force.

The CC said, Chief do what you want - get this goat heard organized.  I trained our Officer staff and cadets in drill, ceremonies, customs, courtesies, and leadership. I was amazed!  They all set high standards for themselves, and then began to demand it from the slackers.  A NEW culture was born in the 78th Cadet Squadron, and once properly trained, that culture now perpetuates itself!

The squadron is PROUD!  It bought a Squadron flag and Guidon.  The competition by cadets for the priviledge to carry the guidon is fierce.  THEY decided only the cadet with the best uniform can carry it.

You want change, you want to be better, get off your cans and just DO IT.  That form of behavior gentlemen, is called LEADERSHIP!

I do that anyways as a CAP Capt.  I don't need my MSgt stripes to lead.  Again...what I am looking for is what is national's vision on how NCO's are to be integrated into the squadron.  How are we going to manage the NCO's professional development. 

Saying just start leading is not enough of a duty discription for me to want to establish a CAP NCO corps.

What exactly are the duites of the NCO?  I know exactly what I am supposed to do as a USAF SNCO....but those are the same things I am supposed to be doing as a CAP officer.

[sandman]

Why do you have to wait for something in writing?  I don't get it.  If you have former NCOs simply use them.  What is so difficult about that?

When I returned to CAP and attended my first meeting I was horrified by what they were calling "opening ceremoines".  As most new members, I just assumed; well, that's the way things are done in CAP - But I knew better.  After a few more meetings I could no longer stand it!  I told the Squadron CC his formations and courtesies to the colors sucked, and sucked big time.  Fine, he said, fix it.  Our formations, and uniforms, are now as good as, and in someways better than, the Air Force!  Yea, that's right, BETTER than the Air Force.

The CC said, Chief do what you want - get this goat heard organized.  I trained our Officer staff and cadets in drill, ceremonies, customs, courtesies, and leadership. I was amazed!  They all set high standards for themselves, and then began to demand it from the slackers.  A NEW culture was born in the 78th Cadet Squadron, and once properly trained, that culture now perpetuates itself!

The squadron is PROUD!  It bought a Squadron flag and Guidon.  The competition by cadets for the priviledge to carry the guidon is fierce.  THEY decided only the cadet with the best uniform can carry it.

You want change, you want to be better, get off your cans and just DO IT.  That form of behavior gentlemen, is called LEADERSHIP!

I do that anyways as a CAP Capt.  I don't need my MSgt stripes to lead.  Again...what I am looking for is what is national's vision on how NCO's are to be integrated into the squadron.  How are we going to manage the NCO's professional development. 

Saying just start leading is not enough of a duty discription for me to want to establish a CAP NCO corps.

What exactly are the duites of the NCO?  I know exactly what I am supposed to do as a USAF SNCO....but those are the same things I am supposed to be doing as a CAP officer.

Valid point. Shouldn't CAP appeal to those former NCO's, now wearing officer devices, to take up the slack and lead by example? In other words, shouldn't CAP NHQ led off on a campaign to raise the awareness of the military heritage of CAP by appealing to current and former NCO's to bring order and dicipline to their local units? What advantage will wearing NCO stripes bring? How will that help?
My skepticism of this program is elevating...

[Al Sayre]

I still worry about gutting squadrons if the RLNCO's revert back to their stripes.  In my case I have two RLNCO's, me and my Deputy Commander for Seniors.  I've also got a couple of RLO's, one is pretty active in the Aerospace Education for the Cadets, but that's all he's really interested in, and the other I've only seen once or twice since I joined the Squadron as far as I know, that's it for a Squadron of 60 members.

[DNall]

Chief I don't think anyone has a problem utilizing NCOs in the role you describe. It's the big picture that escapes us...

I think we're all seeking the same end point!!!! I think we all agree there is no single silver bullet program to fix it, that it'll take several simultaneous efforts from varrious directions. I don't think we fully have our brains wrapped around the details of what Chief wants to do & how he wants to do it - I get the individual level, not as well the broader national program & execution details.

Are NCOs particularly required to accomplish this feat? Well the grade doesn't matter, but their experience in mentoring superior officers & shoving a back bane up from below does. The only advantage in designating them NCOs is it brings a degree of credibility to start. If they took the same people into this seperate specialty track & kept wearing officer grade, it just wouldn't be as effective. How screwy does that make CAP? well that 's a whole other topic.

You guys know I'm full on all out for massive reformation of the officer program - limited slots, 80% AF standards, selection & promotion boards w/ an AF rep, merit based system following AF career timelines... the whole deal. I understand teh argument that an NCO program like this cannot be extremely effective w/o also making those changes to the officer program, but look at it from the other direction. What if Chief runs this NCO program in here that proves to everyone how much we need an NCO corps, then what officers should be, then that we need to recruit civilians thru an enlisted track to CAP-made NCOs meeting real standards... What if what he's doing is coming from one direction, while other things come from a couple other diretions, all trying to meet in the middle? That's what I see here. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but I don't think so.

[lordmonar]

Valid point. Shouldn't CAP appeal to those former NCO's, now wearing officer devices, to take up the slack and lead by example? In other words, shouldn't CAP NHQ led off on a campaign to raise the awareness of the military heritage of CAP by appealing to current and former NCO's to bring order and discipline to their local units? What advantage will wearing NCO stripes bring? How will that help?
My skepticism of this program is elevating...

And officers.....there is a lot of military experience in most CAP squadron.  The lack of militarism is not because there is no one around who knows better.  NHQ should send out to all echelons of command that they would like to see more attention to military customs and courtesies, wear of the uniform and a more military image.  That is all that is needed.  Communication.  If lack of military awareness is the problem then lets address the problem.  Creating a new wrinkle in the already wrinkle CAP rank structure is not how I would address this problem (if there really is one).

[Dragoon]

The big question is - where is the parallel effort to utilize the talents of real military officers to fix the organization?  Or has CAP decided that only military NCOs have the leadership qualities needed to make the change?

I've always thought it a bit odd how we hold the stripes in such high respect, and, hand out bars and oak leaves like candy.  Weird.

[Chief Chiafos]

I want to express my gratitude to all who have posted here, and in the Chief's Corner.  I am trying to digest what everyone had to say: the good, the bad, and the ugly.  Some concepts I had will have to be rethought, and others, which I had not anticipated at all, require some additional thinking.  As I try to find where and how I will fit into Headquarters, my thoughts will always be with you - the people who are CAP.

The NCO issue, like so many others, uniforms, etc., are rooted in the schizophrenic nature of CAP: are we, or are we not "military"?  The Air Force says they want us to wear their unifrom - and then works like hell to ensure that we don't look like the Air Force.  The Air Force expects us to abide by customs and courtesies, but instructs its people not to salute us back.  Is it any wonder we are confused, frustrated, and demoralised?

And CAP is just as bad; authorizing award of distintictive achievements, like the Blue Beret - then forbiding anyone to wear it (I know, I know, I know - that has recently changed).  But the idea is basic and still applies; and it sends a terrible message.

Our Officers are not "real" but expected to act like they are; until you try to hold one accountable, then its the old "Hey, I'm a Vounteer - worship me because I am here" song and dance.  Try that one in the all "volunteer" military and see what happens.  Try to correct a misworn uniform and you get the - "I'm not in the military" excuse.

We desparately need trainable people but we have an any-moron-wannabe can join membership policy.  I have watched smart and talented people come to a meeting with intention to join, get a good look at Capt. Snuffy and his refugee-from-a-surplus-store appearance, and we never see them again.

Before CAP will ever get its house in order, it must decide what it is.  If we are military then we need to embrace it whole heartedly.  Set manning documents for each unit and recruit to fill slots, demand discipline, and all other things military; and send those who cannot or will not comply to the Boy Scouts.

If we are not military - then lets dump all the pretence and return the uniforms to the Air Force with a thank you very much, but we don't pretend anymore.

No man can serve two masters - neither can CAP.  For he will serve only one to neglect the other, or dispise them both.

[Dragoon]

Good points all, Chief.  Overall, a definition of the basic problem.  BG Anderson noticed it years back - we're military when it suits us, and corporate when it doesn't.

Kind of like being "a little bit pregnant."

And, with the problem defined, the question becomes "what is the best set of changes to correct the problem?"

Hopefully, you'll be in a position to put forth some modest proposals to fix things.

[flyguy06]

I msis Gen Anderson......and Gen"s Bergman, Bowling, Cass, and the rest that go back to 1984.

[ZigZag911]

An Incident Commander can be a senior member without rank, and boss around everyone including generals, as long as they aren't currently in the command structure.

Even if they are in command structure, if signed in as mission participants, they answer to IC....if not, they are visitors or evaluators, and have no direct say on mission either..... a Wing/Region or National CC could relieve an IC (or suspend or revoke  IC's qualifications)....but IC can't simply be ignored, regardless of rank involved

Tags - MIKE

[ZigZag911]

Because we have the no-grade-wearing golf shirt combo, and that no real authority derives from our earned grade in CAP, and because of a host of other reasons, one has to wonder what our rank system ought to be.  The way is stands now, our senior member grades could be A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, and I and it wouldn't change the way the system operates.

I've long believed that a change in titles (squadron CC to 'local leader, group CC to 'district supervisor', wing CC to 'state manager'), along with altering our grade insignia to name tags with position titles described above, would send the wnnabees scurrying for the exits!

[ZigZag911]

Another issue I see, and you can often see it emphasized through discussions on this board, is that we get too many non-rated (non-pilot) persons in Command positions.  We are the Civil Air Patrol, not the Civil Ground Patrol or anything else.  The organization's roots are in flying.  Now, I'm not saying that a person must be a pilot to be a Commander but there should be a much higher percentage than there are currently.  Far too often I see Wing Commanders that don't fly and have no real interest in it.  That should be very much the exception but I don't think it is.  In the "real" AF, it's pretty tough to rise to the top if you're not wearing wings, just as it's difficult to rise in the Army if you don't have jump wings.   

The rated people "just want to fly"....don't want to be bothered with petty details like finance reports/committees. audits, subordinate unit inspections, Basic Encampment....the list goes on and on.

There has been a move such as you suggested in certain wings and regions in the past 4 or 5 years.....pilots are taking charge (in some instances, despite little or no CAP experience)

Once they 'take charge', they 'just want to fly'.......so cadet programs, aerospace, ES other  than flight ops, all get short shrift.

This trend happens every few years (I've been around 30 plus).....generally those pilots who just want the titles and the shoulder hardware that accompany them get bored real quickly, take their exaggerated ranks back to a "flying squadron", and are rarely seen anywhere near a form, file, or report again!

[JohnKachenmeister]

Because we have the no-grade-wearing golf shirt combo, and that no real authority derives from our earned grade in CAP, and because of a host of other reasons, one has to wonder what our rank system ought to be.  The way is stands now, our senior member grades could be A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, and I and it wouldn't change the way the system operates.

I've long believed that a change in titles (squadron CC to 'local leader, group CC to 'district supervisor', wing CC to 'state manager'), along with altering our grade insignia to name tags with position titles described above, would send the wnnabees scurrying for the exits!

It will also sent the"Ustabees" scurrying.  I came back to CAP after a career in the military, (coming up from the ranks to major), to use my expertise to help lead a military organization and to train and develop cadets, as I was trained and developed by the World War II vets back in the 1960's.

If I wanted to work for Sears, I'd do so, and get a paycheck for it.

[Dragoon]

Well, not all the "usetabees."  I'm here for the work.

The structure described is that used by the CGAUX.  They have the rank insignia, but not the title.

[Chief Chiafos]

Gentlemen (Ladies too).  The topic here is NCOs, not Officers, flight status, or incident command.  Please stay on topic.

[DNall]

Roger Chief, but I think part of the issue in digesting NCOs is understanding how they fit into an already broken span of authority. I know your intent is to reject that borken system & set about fixing it from a position of experience & strength. On the other hand, the natural position of people in those spots (good & the bad) is to figure out how you fit in relation to them staying where they are. That's probably not stated well, but that seems to be what people aren't understanding.

[ZigZag911]

Gentlemen (Ladies too).  The topic here is NCOs, not Officers, flight status, or incident command.  Please stay on topic.

Chief, DNall is right....we need to look at the whole situation to make sensible decisions and recommendations.

[Dragoon]

Or to put it another way, tacking on an NCO corp with an ill defined role and a lack of meaningful authority onto an officer corps with an ill defined role and lack of meaningful authority doesn't get at the root of the problem.

We're more screwed up than just lacking professional NCOs.....

[Chief Chiafos]

The reason you haven't got a grip on the NCO concept is because I have been an NCO for so long I just think like one – and you, on the other hand have no real knowledge of what an NCO is, does, or the place the NCO has in an organization.  So, bear with me and I'll try to explain.

The first military organization we know any thing about is the Egyptian army of Pharaoh Rameses II in 1,400 BC.  His victory over the Hittites at the battle on the plains of Maggedo (Armageddon) is carved in stone.  On those carvings, our equivalent of the NCO are set in places of honor.  The Roman's had NCOs called Centurions.  Julius Caesar, who knew the names of only a few of his key staff officers (tribunes), knew the first names, and had a personal relationship with, each and every one of his 485 Centurions!  Caesar once executed a young tribune for failure to immediately carry out the orders of a senior Centurion – what a way to send a message to second lieutenants.  The lesson is: no military structure can exist, let alone function, without NCOs.

Imagine if you will, what would happen to the Air Force if all its NCOs suddenly disappeared.  The United States Air Force would look and act exactly like CAP... and would collapse overnight!  Because every job requiring a decision, or training the new guy, to inspecting the barracks will fall on the officers – they would get nothing, and I mean nothing done – sound familiar?

I'll use an analogy, albeit a poor one:  think of a military organization, as a heating and cooling system, very much like a house furnace.  The officer decides when it should run, the temperature to set, what rooms to heat or cool, etc.  The NCO heads a crew to ensure the system responds to the officer's commands.  The NCO is the resident "expert" on the system.  He trains the new technicians, inspects the system for problems, and ensures its ready to instantly respond.  He teaches the system to a new officer, so, some day, that officer will know what he's doing when its his turn to be the commander.  It goes something like this: The officer says, hey Sarge I can't switch from heat to cool, what's going on?  Sir, there was a faulty relay (Airman Smith).  OK, Sarge, replace it.  Sir, I already have (Smith is now counting ice bergs in Greenland) and should it should switch just fine now.

Or like this: Sergeant 4 stripes calls sergeant 7 stripes at another furnace location.  Hey Sarge, he says, you worked on the model 607 once didn't you?  Sure did, what's the problem?  Well, the heat exchanger doesn't look the right color at max capacity, been going on a couple of days now.  Yea, seen that before, just open the damper to full and replace the filters at 100 hours instead of 150, call me back if that doesn't work.

Or like this: Sarge to officer: Sir, you can't task this system for 80,000 BTUs, it can't do it.  Keep this up and we'll (notice we, not you) burn the house down.  Officer, well, how can we get it there?  Sir, We'll have to replace the firebox, which ought to it.  OK, Sarge, get it done.  All the officer needs to know is whether or not the system is running efficiently.  It's not his job to actually run it.

I hope this is helpful to you.  If not, I'll try again.

[RiverAux]

The one area where I see NCOs as actually being needed in CAP is in the cadet programs section.  Somone that knows the basics of military customs, courtsies, drill, etc. down pat could be a real asset to the cadets.  I'm not saying that non prior-service or former officers don't know or can't learn all that stuff, but it would bring a real air of credibility to the program and would actually simulate boot camp, etc. a little better as well (they've all seen the movies -- they all know that a Lt. Col. isn't supposed to be teaching raw recruits Left Face, Right Face). 

I have a much harder time seeing how NCOs can be used in the rest of CAP given that we have no real enlisted people for them to supervise "to get the work done". 

[shorning]

The reason you haven't got a grip on the NCO concept is because I have been an NCO for so long I just think like one – and you, on the other hand have no real knowledge of what an NCO is, does, or the place the NCO has in an organization.  So, bear with me and I'll try to explain.

Hey, Chief?  If you're going to throw insults at some one, could you at least quote them so we know what the heck you're talking about?  Otherwise it's hard to appreciate the condescending tone.

[Chief Chiafos]

Shorning,

I had no intention of insulting anyone, or to be condesending.  If you re-read the first sentence I have assumed the responsibility for failure to explain the NCO sufficiently to those who don't really know very much about it - and I am doing the best I can to educate them.  The only tone here, is yours.  Do you have something positive to say?  I hope so.

[capchiro]

Chief,

I can't believe your last reponse.  NCO's don't walk on water, despite all of your chest pounding.  Also, you might consider the success that the CAP program has had over the last 60 years, the lives saved, the cadets trained, the sucessful encampments and the hard working dedicated people that have made this happen inspite of your absence and the absence of an NCO core.  I think you owe an apology to all CAP members for your egotistical and self-grandising statements.  I have known my share of fat, sloppy, inefficient, NCO lifers.  Now, if you have something to present, please do so without attacking anybody that isn't an NCO and try to offer something other than criticism for a system that is still better than anything you have offered to fix it with.  

[Chief Chiafos]

Capchiro,

Why are you being so abusive?  Is this the example a Lieutenant Colonel should set for others?  Surely you can explain your point of view in a more honorable way... Oh, Well...

[flyguy06]

Its responces like the previous two of the Chief's that me suspect if this poster is in fact the "real" Chief. If it is and he is carrying on like this. We are in trouble.

But like I said before, I dont even know why this conversation is still going on. This Chief is just an advisor. Nothing he does will directly effect us at the Squadron Level. Not directly.

[Chief Chiafos]

Well, No point in going on here.  I have a request for you.  Email me a list of 5 things in CAP you'd like to see changed or improved.  Remember, there is just one of me and thousands of you.  Try to keep within the realm of what is doable.  I can't change the CAP Charter or anything like that, but I may, for example be able to get you better services from Vanguard.  Those items that reappear consistantly in your requests will give me direction and priorities.

Thank you all for your time and interest here.

[Robert Hartigan]

If I may and I will add... ... the topic boils down to the role of the technician verses the role of the generalist and/or managers. CAP needs more technicians than generalists or managers. You must agree? Furthermore, you must agree it does not matter what they are called; Captain, Sergeant or Member or what they wear; stripes, bars or pokey dots, the missions are what matters. The titles and insignia are ceremonial and customary. Wouldn't  you still join CAP if your title was Mister?

Essentially by program design we are all technicians until we have achieved Level IV of the senior member program. Are we used as such, no?

The organization is weak because it more often than not promotes Level I, II and III senior members to manager positions before they have obtained the mastery of skill sets deemed important to the organization as previously outlined in the regulation and policies established by those with prior experience and training. This is because those currently charged with administering the organization are caught in a "Catch 22" and put the need to fill a vacant position ahead of the consequences of filling the position with a less than qualified candidate.  Some of those candidates do well because of transferable skill sets and experiences while other are left to struggle with their own professional development while leading others or managing programs because they may have demonstrated an aptitude or enthusiasm for the assignment. If the member does not have the ability the situation grows and becomes less and less tolerable for those in charge because of the exponential property of human nature until it finally results in a perceived poor performance that is unacceptable and forces the vacancy again.  This typically results in a termination and a loss of corporate legacy knowledge even though gained under less than desirable circumstances. This practice of promoting to fill, however appealing or pressured must stop if the organization is to succeed. To borrow a Toyota proverb: Stop production so production never stops!

I do not believe there is anything inherently wrong with the current professional development program; when it is administered correctly it has proven itself by producing quality technicians and leaders for the organization.  The problems addressed on this forum are not solved by bringing back NCO's, electing wing commander, wearing new uniforms or separating from the USAF.

1.   The issues addressed here are solved by a review of the critical paths and initiatives used to achieve our missions. Revise and eliminate over processing of information and resources. Establishing clear and concise goals while providing membership with the tools necessary to achieve said goals.
2.   Understanding what it means to be an NCO and an Officer in the military and applying correctly what you learned to your current situation in CAP.
3.   Standardized administration of the program correctly to achieve total patrol uniformity.

The idea or concept of NCO's in CAP is not a permanent fix to any problem in the organization because it is limited to the desire and tenure of the National Commander. If the next Commander decides to do away with NCO's then a new question will be answered by those NCO's: How deep are your core values if you can not put on officer grade insignia? The organization will still need technicians!

[Hotel 179]

Surely you can explain your point of view in a more honorable way... Oh, Well...

Don't feed the trolls.

[DNall]

Everybody be nice now or this thread is going to follow the last one, straight to hell!!!

I think the people talking here have a better grasp of what an NCO is than the majority of the rest of CAP. I think with just a couple excpetions everybody in the thread has or is serving in the military, couple SNCOs - some in better climates than the nippy 50 degrees I had this afternoon, how ya doin over there sir?

First, CAP did have an NCO corps for the first 45 or so of that 65 year history. There's good & bad points about it, & the way the officer corps was in those days because of it. The current model of "only prior-service keeping stripes if they want to" is a hold over from that transition for RNCOs that didn't want to go officer. There was not at the time or since any more consideration of it then that.

I think we all grasp what an NCO does in the military. I don't think anyone has issue with using them in the same role in CAP, and typically that's the case or else they are really good & used as a specialized master instructor or something. That's the individual basis tactical level, fine no problems there. If you're just talking about that & building a networking channel to make them all good at their job, well that's silly. That's just good communication & SHOULD exist in every specialty track. We've talked about that along with specialty track managers before. That's not a big picture NCO corps program though, that's what I'm not seeing yet.

Maybe I'm not understanding what you want to do here. My impression was you want to run a bunch of prior service NCOs into stripes & use them like a 1Sgt system to advise/mentor/train officers out of the broken BS lack of standards we got now, while providing advice & representation of membership up the chain (like CAC & Sr Enlisted Advisor rolled into one) - call it the roaming quality control police slammed together w/ CAC for adults. I can see that, I like it a lot actually in theory. I don't know how well it'd work out to put all those functions on one set of people or if there's enough of them to carry that load, but I'm interested in all the help we can get.

Anyway, got the tactical, what's the strategic & how does it fix the rest of teh system from within?

[Dragoon]

The reason you haven't got a grip on the NCO concept is because I have been an NCO for so long I just think like one – and you, on the other hand have no real knowledge of what an NCO is, does, or the place the NCO has in an organization.  So, bear with me and I'll try to explain.

Ummm....In my "day job" I have been mentored by, provided mentoring to, and lead NCOs for in excess of 20 years.  I think that qualifies as having at least some knowledge of what NCOs are, do,  and their place in a military organization.

I'll make you a deal - you don't generalize about CAP officers, and I won't generalize about USAF NCOs.   Sound fair?   

[Dragoon]

Chief, I think you'll find out if you do the analysis that the vast majority of squadron level CAP members are performing "NCO" not "officer" duties.  As a result, if we want an NCO corps THAT'S the way to go. Making those members into those NCOs.

I really like your challenge to name 5 things in CAP that needs changing.  Here are mine - not by any means an all inclusive list, but just a few that came to mind quickly.

1.  Simplify and clarify headgear and outer garment requirements for uniforms.  As it stands you can wear a pink top hat with your blue utility or field uniform (though you have the OPTION of wearing a blue BDU cap with the field, though not with the utility - weird).  And many believe that any civilian outer garment is acceptable with USAF BDUs in the name of "safety" and cost savings - if that's true, let's see it in writing.

2.  CAP desperately needs its professional development system revised to include practical tasks like activity planning, OPORDER writing, and preparing correspondence.  Much like the revised ES system, our level 1 and 2 needs more hands on practical stuff designed to give members the real skills to run good squadrons.

3.  Relook 20-1 in light of the true "average" CAP squadron.  A while back, the average outfit had about 4 active seniors and 8 cadets.  How come 20-1 doesn't explain how to run a unit with that few, as opposed to only modeling the "perfect" 70 man squadron.  Some positions are clearly "nice to have" but aren't labled as such.

4.  We need an online driver's exam to cover the 77-1 series, so that all our drivers know the CAP rules, accident reporting, liability, how to do daily vehicle inspections, etc.

5.  Relook all requirements levied on the squadron from a manpower/work hour standpoint.  This is related to #3.  Each staff section keeps inventing new reports and requirements for the squadron to perform without checking to see if there's actually time and manpower at the units to get them done.  This results in a heck of a lot of "pencil whipping" because folks simply can't do it all right.  Any attempt to add a requirement to squadron's workload needs to go through some central activity to determine its impact on the poor guys at the bottom.

Whaddaya think?  Challenging enough for a start?

[Mac]

They're listed as SMs. Promotion authority is local & paperwork never leaves the unit. That's why NHQ will be confused if you tell them you want to revert, cause they don't deal with it & all you're really asking them to do is take you from Major to SM & indicate it isn't for disciplinary reasons. It isn't tracked at all anywhere that I know of.

I think one key thing to establish initially is can they go back to the O-grade down teh road if this doesn't work out or they change tehir mind.

I have sent CAPF 2 in for demotion to NCO grades and national will list the individual as the NCO grade indictaed.

[MIKE]

And many believe that any civilian outer garment is acceptable with USAF BDUs in the name of "safety" and cost savings - if that's true, let's see it in writing.

Biggest myth in CAP, if it were authorized it would say so like it does for each of the CAP Distinctive Uniforms.  Note that at present this is not true of the CAP Corporate Uniform.

The real answer is supposed to be that if you can't afford an All Weather Coat or Raincoat (You can wear those with both BDUs and Service Uniform.)  You'll wear a CAP Distinctive Uniform for which civilian (non-standard) outerwear has been specifically authorized.

3.  Relook 20-1 in light of the true "average" CAP squadron.  A while back, the average outfit had about 4 active seniors and 8 cadets.  How come 20-1 doesn't explain how to run a unit with that few, as opposed to only modeling the "perfect" 70 man squadron.  Some positions are clearly "nice to have" but aren't labled as such.

IIRC I heard them discuss this on one of those live streams a while back.  Not sure if it will also address number 5.

[Smokey]

One theme that keeps cropping up here is that folks are talking about who the NCOs would supervise or lead since we do not have an enlisted corps.  I think you are not bothering to read his posts or are so wrapped up with emotion that you fail to grasp the concept. He is not looking to demote CAP officers to NCOs or recommend new members come in as enlisted.

He is not looking to start a separate cadre of NCOs.  He is harnessing the knowledge of the NCOs  already present in CAP to HELP those CAP officers without military excperience on how the military operates, what language they speak, and so on. He will merely act as a conduit and lead for the already existing NCOs that are spread out amongst CAP units nationwide.

This is not some grand scheme that some of you are making it out to be. Put your emotions in check, read his posts carefully. He merely wants to coordinate the existing NCOs so that they as a group they can provide more meaningful service to CAP.   The NCOs have a vast amount of knowledge that is going to waste and the Chief sees the opportunity to tap into this brain trust.

It is not a scheme to usurp CAP officers (and he realizes that many are former military, but many are not). I don't see how some folks are reading more into his plan than is there.  I know with some of the things that have gone on we have found hidden agendas but I don't see it here.  

He is offering to arrange for CAP officers a way of using NCOs to assist individuals to learns the whys and hows of the military. Stop looking for a conspiracy.

[TDHenderson]

He is not looking to start a separate cadre of NCOs.  He is harnessing the knowledge of the NCOs  already present in CAP to HELP those CAP officers without military excperience on how the military operates, what language they speak, and so on. He will merely act as a conduit and lead for the already existing NCOs that are spread out amongst CAP units nationwide.

Bingo!  Smokey, you nailed it.  I personally have no real military experience myself (just 8 years as a Cadet) and am here to say that the Chief is providing exactly what you stated in your post.  I rely on his wisdom and experience and am grateful that he is willing to help us out.

[Dragoon]

If the purpose is to harness the military expertise of former NCOs...


....why aren't we trying to harness the military expertise of the former officers?

If the National Commander had set up a "prior service Advisor" with the mission of "harnessing the collective military knowlege of our members with military leadership experience" it would be one thing.

But instead we have the establishment of a senior CAP NCO with the mission of reinvigorating the CAP NCO Corps, it's no wonder that folks are questioning "why CAP NCOs?"

[A.Member]

If the purpose is to harness the military expertise of former NCOs...


....why aren't we trying to harness the military expertise of the former officers?

If the National Commander had set up a "prior service Advisor" with the mission of "harnessing the collective military knowlege of our members with military leadership experience" it would be one thing.

But instead we have the establishment of a senior CAP NCO with the mission of reinvigorating the CAP NCO Corps, it's no wonder that folks are questioning "why CAP NCOs?"

What he said. ^

[Al Sayre]

That is actually a pretty good idea!  While they're at it, they could try and work up a pre-discharge recruiting plan.

[sandman]

And many believe that any civilian outer garment is acceptable with USAF BDUs in the name of "safety" and cost savings - if that's true, let's see it in writing.

Biggest myth in CAP, if it were authorized it would say so like it does for each of the CAP Distinctive Uniforms.  Note that at present this is not true of the CAP Corporate Uniform.

The real answer is supposed to be that if you can't afford an All Weather Coat or Raincoat (You can wear those with both BDUs and Service Uniform.)  You'll wear a CAP Distinctive Uniform for which civilian (non-standard) outerwear has been specifically authorized.

3.  Relook 20-1 in light of the true "average" CAP squadron.  A while back, the average outfit had about 4 active seniors and 8 cadets.  How come 20-1 doesn't explain how to run a unit with that few, as opposed to only modeling the "perfect" 70 man squadron.  Some positions are clearly "nice to have" but aren't labled as such.

IIRC I heard them discuss this on one of those live streams a while back.  Not sure if it will also address number 5.

Addressing just one issue at this time (re: Chief's challenge of five recommendations):
Uniforms....Get rid of all corporate stuff, period. Chief, have the Air Force relax the dismorphic body fat standards and allow everyone to wear the AF uniform. Precedence: Coast Guard Auxiliary. I have witnessed many extremely routund individuals wearing the CG uniform.
We should always encourage members to improve their health (that would give a great mission to us in the new health care track). But let us as volunteers wear the AF uniform. Maybe modify it with a simple shoulder patch shuch as the "overseas" unit patch. And maybe get vanguard to produce metal rank with the red letter "A" such as the CG AUX metal rank.

[flyguy06]

If the purpose is to harness the military expertise of former NCOs...


....why aren't we trying to harness the military expertise of the former officers?

If the National Commander had set up a "prior service Advisor" with the mission of "harnessing the collective military knowlege of our members with military leadership experience" it would be one thing.

But instead we have the establishment of a senior CAP NCO with the mission of reinvigorating the CAP NCO Corps, it's no wonder that folks are questioning "why CAP NCOs?"

We have a Senior military officer advisor. He's called the Commander, CAP-USAF

[RocketPropelled]

1) I'll wear whatever grade insignia, and do whatever duty, that I'm assigned by our higher-ups.  Captain, Airman, Specialist, Auxiliarist, Gofer, Hey You, name it.
2) I'll do whatever job needs to be done, as long as I'm trained, encouraged, empowered, and supported to get it done.

That said:

CAP has an active core of experienced NCOs on board right now.  They're currently wearing stripes, bars, leaves, or eagles -- their choice (or their commander's choice when inking the paperwork). 

Uniform decoration aside, my question is, what can we do as members to help them share their experience, insight, and wisdom that we're not doing already?

The goals I see the Chief articulating are the same goals I think we all share.

The NCO in CAP will do what the NCO does in the military: speak the truth, practice fairness, seek justice, demand accountability, enforce standards in wear of the uniform, customs and courtesies, conduct military formations and ceremonies, mentor officers with leadership skills, and advise commanders in the better interests of CAP, its people, and missions.  This is the road to true professionalism.

If I'm running a squadron, I don't want anyone who can't, or won't, do all those things.  As a commander, it's my job to make sure they're trained to do them all.

If someone's slack on military courtesies, we can beef that up in our current system, with proper guidance and motivation.  I'd say most of that can be chalked up to our cultural schizophrenia -- pick a side, CAP leadership, you're either the Benevolent and Polyester Order of the Silver Wings and Medium Gray Slacks; or you're into military uniform wear, a paramilitary culture, and a willingness to play ball with the Big Boys (NIMS compliance, stan/eval, etc.).

Chief, you wanna resolve something?  Get someone at NHQ to help solve THAT issue, and a lot of the pieces you want will fall into place.  Until then, misfit members will hide behind whichever veil fits their mood.

But seriously -- I believe the Chief seriously underestimates the abilities, motivation, intelligence, and drive of a great majority of the membership if he believes that ANY member, officer or cadet, is incapable of seeking justice, speaking the truth, adhering to standards, and advising their leadership.  These aren't magical NCO qualities, but they are qualities that we should all strive for.  My professional role models are myriad, and a couple of NCOs are in the bunch -- but it's because of the people they are, not because of any insignia they ever wore on a uniform.

If officers and cadets aren't meeting the above expectations, how do we make that happen within the current system?  I believe it comes down to command responsibility, empowerment, and training.  Right now, CAP as a culture tends toward the overly polite, and toward the "local" culture.  From what I've heard, Iowa's success is due to a standardization of training, a clear expectation and execution of leadership, and a paradigm shift of culture.  Did a solid NCO corps help?  Probably, but I'd like to hear some more concrete examples of exactly how -- and how that change was impossible without the direct intervention of specific motivated members because they were NCOs.

Much change can be affected by men and women of moral and ethical strength, diplomacy, leadership experience, and good judgement.  And if someone has those qualities, I don't need to see stripes to recognize their contributions.  But those stripes don't automagically create those qualities.

[Al Sayre]

Right now, CAP as a culture tends toward the overly polite, and toward the "local" culture.

Ain't that the truth!  I had 3 Members quit because I "yelled at them in an email (to the entire membership)" by typing some important things in capital letters.  I figured if they were that sensitive, they really had no business in a quasi-military organization to start with...  3 less problems that I have to deal with.

Tags - MIKE

[JohnKachenmeister]

And many believe that any civilian outer garment is acceptable with USAF BDUs in the name of "safety" and cost savings - if that's true, let's see it in writing.

Biggest myth in CAP, if it were authorized it would say so like it does for each of the CAP Distinctive Uniforms.  Note that at present this is not true of the CAP Corporate Uniform.

The real answer is supposed to be that if you can't afford an All Weather Coat or Raincoat (You can wear those with both BDUs and Service Uniform.)  You'll wear a CAP Distinctive Uniform for which civilian (non-standard) outerwear has been specifically authorized.

3.  Relook 20-1 in light of the true "average" CAP squadron.  A while back, the average outfit had about 4 active seniors and 8 cadets.  How come 20-1 doesn't explain how to run a unit with that few, as opposed to only modeling the "perfect" 70 man squadron.  Some positions are clearly "nice to have" but aren't labled as such.

IIRC I heard them discuss this on one of those live streams a while back.  Not sure if it will also address number 5.

Addressing just one issue at this time (re: Chief's challenge of five recommendations):
Uniforms....Get rid of all corporate stuff, period. Chief, have the Air Force relax the dismorphic body fat standards and allow everyone to wear the AF uniform. Precedence: Coast Guard Auxiliary. I have witnessed many extremely routund individuals wearing the CG uniform.
We should always encourage members to improve their health (that would give a great mission to us in the new health care track). But let us as volunteers wear the AF uniform. Maybe modify it with a simple shoulder patch shuch as the "overseas" unit patch. And maybe get vanguard to produce metal rank with the red letter "A" such as the CG AUX metal rank.

Gray epaulets aren't enough to set us apart?

I agree with you, that those of us over 50 have great difficulty staying within the "10 percent over ENTRY LEVEL basic training standards," and as such, the standard is unrealistic.  I don't know if the Air Force is likely to budge on that issue, though.

[Al Sayre]

If they'd just relax them to the same as for their own people of commensurate age it would solve the problem for 80% of those that currently don't meet the standard.

[Dragoon]

If the purpose is to harness the military expertise of former NCOs...


....why aren't we trying to harness the military expertise of the former officers?

If the National Commander had set up a "prior service Advisor" with the mission of "harnessing the collective military knowlege of our members with military leadership experience" it would be one thing.

But instead we have the establishment of a senior CAP NCO with the mission of reinvigorating the CAP NCO Corps, it's no wonder that folks are questioning "why CAP NCOs?"

We have a Senior military officer advisor. He's called the Commander, CAP-USAF

\


Not the same thing.  CAP-USAF has NCOs as well, so no need for a CAP Chief if you follow that logic.   

If your goal for a CAP NCO Corps has to do with getting prior service NCO experience in CAP AND keeping them exclusive and seperate.....why not do the same thing for prior service Officers?  The CAP-USAF commander hasn't been tasked with created a core of CAP "officers" who are all prior service in order to make CAP better.  Heck we let anybody wear oak leaves - why are we so protective of stripes?

[Dragoon]

1) I'll wear whatever grade insignia, and do whatever duty, that I'm assigned by our higher-ups.  Captain, Airman, Specialist, Auxiliarist, Gofer, Hey You, name it.
2) I'll do whatever job needs to be done, as long as I'm trained, encouraged, empowered, and supported to get it done.

That said:

CAP has an active core of experienced NCOs on board right now.  They're currently wearing stripes, bars, leaves, or eagles -- their choice (or their commander's choice when inking the paperwork). 

Uniform decoration aside, my question is, what can we do as members to help them share their experience, insight, and wisdom that we're not doing already?

The goals I see the Chief articulating are the same goals I think we all share.

The NCO in CAP will do what the NCO does in the military: speak the truth, practice fairness, seek justice, demand accountability, enforce standards in wear of the uniform, customs and courtesies, conduct military formations and ceremonies, mentor officers with leadership skills, and advise commanders in the better interests of CAP, its people, and missions.  This is the road to true professionalism.

If I'm running a squadron, I don't want anyone who can't, or won't, do all those things.  As a commander, it's my job to make sure they're trained to do them all.

If someone's slack on military courtesies, we can beef that up in our current system, with proper guidance and motivation.  I'd say most of that can be chalked up to our cultural schizophrenia -- pick a side, CAP leadership, you're either the Benevolent and Polyester Order of the Silver Wings and Medium Gray Slacks; or you're into military uniform wear, a paramilitary culture, and a willingness to play ball with the Big Boys (NIMS compliance, stan/eval, etc.).

Chief, you wanna resolve something?  Get someone at NHQ to help solve THAT issue, and a lot of the pieces you want will fall into place.  Until then, misfit members will hide behind whichever veil fits their mood.

But seriously -- I believe the Chief seriously underestimates the abilities, motivation, intelligence, and drive of a great majority of the membership if he believes that ANY member, officer or cadet, is incapable of seeking justice, speaking the truth, adhering to standards, and advising their leadership.  These aren't magical NCO qualities, but they are qualities that we should all strive for.  My professional role models are myriad, and a couple of NCOs are in the bunch -- but it's because of the people they are, not because of any insignia they ever wore on a uniform.

If officers and cadets aren't meeting the above expectations, how do we make that happen within the current system?  I believe it comes down to command responsibility, empowerment, and training.  Right now, CAP as a culture tends toward the overly polite, and toward the "local" culture.  From what I've heard, Iowa's success is due to a standardization of training, a clear expectation and execution of leadership, and a paradigm shift of culture.  Did a solid NCO corps help?  Probably, but I'd like to hear some more concrete examples of exactly how -- and how that change was impossible without the direct intervention of specific motivated members because they were NCOs.

Much change can be affected by men and women of moral and ethical strength, diplomacy, leadership experience, and good judgement.  And if someone has those qualities, I don't need to see stripes to recognize their contributions.  But those stripes don't automagically create those qualities.

Well said.

[Smokey]

Kack,

I thought you got down to fighting weight and were a lean mean  fighting machine??

[DNall]

2.  CAP desperately needs its professional development system revised to include practical tasks like activity planning, OPORDER writing, and preparing correspondence.  Much like the revised ES system, our level 1 and 2 needs more hands on practical stuff designed to give members the real skills to run good squadrons.

That's AFIADL13, and yes it should be a requirement of Level 1. I got no problem updating it with practical examples rather than the abstract ones they use, but you should be doing that locally. You should put people in this course as soon as they join & have them do some practical example practice docs & excerscises to better understand the material & how to use the T&Q.

3.  Relook 20-1 in light of the true "average" CAP squadron.  A while back, the average outfit had about 4 active seniors and 8 cadets.  How come 20-1 doesn't explain how to run a unit with that few, as opposed to only modeling the "perfect" 70 man squadron.  Some positions are clearly "nice to have" but aren't labled as such.

5.  Relook all requirements levied on the squadron from a manpower/work hour standpoint.  This is related to #3.  Each staff section keeps inventing new reports and requirements for the squadron to perform without checking to see if there's actually time and manpower at the units to get them done.  This results in a heck of a lot of "pencil whipping" because folks simply can't do it all right.  Any attempt to add a requirement to squadron's workload needs to go through some central activity to determine its impact on the poor guys at the bottom.

I think if you'll look, you'll find that a unit w/ 4 seniors & 8 cadets is incapable of functioning at minimums & should be shut down. I've talked about this before because the MML is so misleading & we push resources around/manage personnel/etc all off that false data & human conjecture.

I'd tell you that you DO have to have a certain staff level to run a legit Sq, and that's what both 20-1 & all the reporting/program/paperwork requirements are based on. That's why there's minimum numbers to be called a Sq, and those are really too low.

What I'd favor is online reporting of meeting attendence... which allows application of a standard for active versus inactive... which tells me which unit w/ 60 on the books has 4/8 & which one has 20/35. That then tells me which units I need to consolidate (by making them a flight & sharing a single staff w/ other such units), and which can stand up w/ some help. Tells me which Sq CCs are doing well & which ones suck - rather then now which is completely the opposite.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Kack,

I thought you got down to fighting weight and were a lean mean  fighting machine??

There was a Christmas cease-fire, but I'm back on the treadmill now.

[KRCopes]

Sorry to post a new topic about the same thing, but the other NCO thread was talking about charters and other unrelated stuff.

I have been thinking about the role and potential of the CAP NCO program, but the same fear continues to recur to me.  The wisdom behind having the NCO program seems to revolve around increasing the level of professionalism and true military experience.  To achieve this, the plan is to only allow former or current Real Military NCOs to hold these positions.

In theory, this makes sense to me.  But then I look down the road when we have several NCOs with their Real Military backgrounds and professionalism.  How are they gonna feel about someone without such training being "superior in grade" because they passed Level I and have been in the program for six months? I fear that some of the following scenarios will occur:

1.) There will be several instances of power struggles between "officers" and the NCO Corp.  The professionally prepared NCOs will resent the "officers" and out grade structure will mean even less than it does now.

2.)  There will be too few NCOs in the program to make it truly effective.

3.)  NCOs will become quickly frustrated since there is currently no system of advancement other than to attain a position at a higher level.

I know that these are not certain outcomes, but I feel that if other changes should occur as well to prevent these types of situations.  The biggest one that comes to mind is the restructuring of the officer corp to make the grade mean something once again.  It seems to me that a slotting program similar to that of the real military would go a long way.  It sounds like the NCO program is going to be somewhat based on slotting, so what's good for the goose . . .

I'd love to hear other folks' thoughts on this.

[DrJbdm]

you have a point, and I'm not sure what the fix is other then to radically change our Officer standards to 50% or even 75% of AF standards... I think that would be a good thing.

[MIKE]

I split off most of that discussion and merged these ones.

[Chief Chiafos]

Received this email today...

"I heard of the conversation related to your introduction here elsewhere, and I just now got to reading it... so I apologize for the delay.

I am glad to see you taking an effort to restore some of the simple military tradition and practice that has such an overarching contribution to our overall organization image.  I have been a CAP member for 10 years, and an Air Force member for 3.  I realized once joining the Air Force how much the CAP, in order to continue being a partner in the Total Force, needs to improve both its internal and external image as a professional organization.  As a result of this realization, I felt I could contribute more to the organization if I hung up my hat as a Civil Air Patrol Captain and supported the Air Force's advice, assistance and oversight mission as an enlisted role model for the cadet program as well as anyone else who would listen or watch... I was very surprised to see what I believe has been a positive response to this decision.

Although having been in the program for the length of time I have makes me realize that you will undoubtedly face a tremendous number of obstacles in this endeavor, I would be glad to support and offer assistance to whatever extent I am able.  I wish you good luck with this undertaking."

That's it.  That's all there is.  No agenda, no conspiracy, no reorganizing, no new regulations, no power struggles with officers, no edicts from headquarters, no new uniforms, no separate lines of authority, no politics, no quibbling, no hair splitting, no nothing...  Just a sincere attempt to make us a little better than we are, and perhaps show the Air Force we can look and act like we were supposed to all along.

[DNall]

Sounds like Nick from out my way, good guy.

Chief I need for you to communicate to us what you're looking to do big picture. I understand the tactical single NCO role, we can educate about that & support those people in those roles, encourage more to join them. Got it, no problems. I also understand the ultimate objectives:

"I realized once joining the Air Force how much the CAP, in order to continue being a partner in the Total Force, needs to improve both its internal and external image as a professional organization. "
-snip-
Just a sincere attempt to make us a little better than we are, and perhaps show the Air Force we can look and act like we were supposed to all along.

What I need to see in order to better support you is what goes in between those two things. The vision for a national NCO program, how's it work, what's the rough details, how does it create a bigger impact than the tactical alone, etc. I'm not trying to oppose you chief, not even to play devil's advocate. I want to see the picture you're trying to paint for us so I can help make it happen in reality.

Now, with that said, I'd ask you to respect Chief that we on the officer side have BIG BIG problems in our selection, training, development, professionalism line of issues. We need to spend a lot of time & effort transforming CAP from that angle as well. Ultimately I believe that effort & yours meet in the middle at a point where we can be a total force contributor & take on some serious missions important to the AF getting their job done, and act as a force multiplier on top of that.

[Chief Chiafos]

My view of CAP is through the prism of the Iowa Wing, which may, or may not reflect accurately on all of CAP.  As I traveled around the wing I was shocked by the lack of formations, roll calls, uniform inspections, proper honors to the colors, cadets improperly training cadets, cadet officers telling seniors what to do  - and sometimes, addressing them by first names.  I think these behaviors may be present, to some degree, throughout CAP.

Because CAP doesn't have a speciality track, or some other kind of program, to combine all things military into a single source, military skills are neglected.  Is this true in all units, no.  But when a unit loses its instructor-enforcer, military discipline begins to erode and its soon back to the same old CAP.
 
I saw former NCOs as the means to bring back the military customs that instill pride and discipline.  Can any former NCO do this, maybe not.  Can any officer with the knowledge do this, probably.  But there is no uniformity, no real caretaker of the standards. 

This conversation has been valuable to me, it is now self-evident that, at this point in time, developing a CAP wide NCO corps isn't practical.  But I still believe former NCOs are the ideal avenue to re-blue CAP as a military organization:  someone who focuses on uniforms, customs, courtesies, formations, and ceremonies.  If you disagree, please explain how you will accomplish this.

If this concept takes root, and spreads across the organization, perhaps then a more formal system of communications and management of NCOs will be required. 

[RiverAux]

I don't know about a "corps", but something in the regulation giving some specific duties and purposes along the lines of what you describe might be helpful to the NCOs we have now.  "Empower" them to start speaking up about such specific issues.  Right now they have no more clout on these issues than any other member. 

[lordmonar]

I don't know about a "corps", but something in the regulation giving some specific duties and purposes along the lines of what you describe might be helpful to the NCOs we have now.  "Empower" them to start speaking up about such specific issues.  Right now they have no more clout on these issues than any other member. 

Exactly.  A revision of CAPR 20-1 that identifies a position (call it First Sergeant or Senior Enlisted Adviser) who specific job is to train SM's in drill and ceremonies, customs and courtesies and the other "military things"

Add a requirement to each level of SM professional development that requires them to take and pass a leadership test that includes drill would enforce the need to listen to these people.

That is all that I was ever asking for.

[ZigZag911]

Because CAP doesn't have a speciality track, or some other kind of program, to combine all things military into a single source, military skills are neglected.   

There is a position for a Leadership Officer in cadet & composite squadrons.

Specialty track training for this area has always been merged into Cadet Programs Specialty.

Perhaps the time has come to make it a stand alone specialty?

Tags - MIKE

[Major Carrales]

My take on NCO's in CAP I placed at this thread...

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=1353.msg18688#msg18688

In a nutshell, an NCO would be an instrumentality of the SQUADRON LEVEL, maybe a Group/WING NCO with time to administer it.  They would ideally be advisory in their own chain like chaplains with no upward lateral movement (like Squadron Command or higher officer outside of the CAP NCO Program).  We don't need them functioning as the "CAP Gestapo" reporting things in a BIG BROTHER/Orwellian like fashion. 

Is that last element I mention here is the intent of these NCOs...I will say I am against it.  If the intent of these NCOs is provide advice and administer professional image...I will support it.

[Dragoon]

I firmly believe that putting more "military" into the cadet program is a good thing.  And a great place to add the expertise of former military leaders, both NCO and Officer.  This assumes that they know their stuff.  The E-7 dental technician may be an NCO, but depending on his service and training it may have been a looooooong time since he stood in a formation

On the senior side of CAP....I'm not so sure.  I think it's a fine idea, but someone would have to do something about golf shirts, blazers, and optional rank system, etc etc.  We've built a senior program that is a lot more "loosey goosey" than that cadet side, and probably for good reason.  The kids are here to learn about the military, and spend most of their CAP time getting better at it.  The adults are here to apply their civilian skills (like being a pilot, or an accountant) to CAP work.  If you only get the senior for 2 hours a week, it's hard to justify too much D&C when their are test to grade, files to manage and checkbooks to balance.

Perhaps as you move about, you can work on a solution to that quandrary. In the meantime, a "stan/eval team that squares away the military side of thd cadet program" sounds like a do-able thing.

[Dragoon]

Because CAP doesn't have a speciality track, or some other kind of program, to combine all things military into a single source, military skills are neglected.   

There is a position for a Leadership Officer in cadet & composite squadrons.

Specialty track training for this area has always been merged into Cadet Programs Specialty.

Perhaps the time has come to make it a stand alone specialty?

I'm always against new specialties, because we've got too many already.  In an undermanned unit, you're likely not to have people actually trained for all the ones out there now!

Having said that, I think you're on to something.  More military stuff in the CP track. Perhaps a D&C requirement at the senior level.

I don't think there's really a place for golf shirted den mother types as Cadet Program leaders.  As chaperones and test proctors, sure.  But the CP leaders at the DCC level and above need to be up on the military side of things.

[arajca]

Because CAP doesn't have a speciality track, or some other kind of program, to combine all things military into a single source, military skills are neglected.   

There is a position for a Leadership Officer in cadet & composite squadrons.

Specialty track training for this area has always been merged into Cadet Programs Specialty.

Perhaps the time has come to make it a stand alone specialty?

Tags - MIKE

The position exists, but it has never been a specialty track, let alone had any training for it. It is a part of what the CP members need to learn.

[ZigZag911]

Because CAP doesn't have a speciality track, or some other kind of program, to combine all things military into a single source, military skills are neglected.   

There is a position for a Leadership Officer in cadet & composite squadrons.

Specialty track training for this area has always been merged into Cadet Programs Specialty.

Perhaps the time has come to make it a stand alone specialty?

Tags - MIKE

The position exists, but it has never been a specialty track, let alone had any training for it. It is a part of what the CP members need to learn.

True, but maybe we need some folks focused on this aspect alone , rather than the entire cadet program (much the way there is an Aerospace Education track).

[swilliams]

After reading this entire thread - I have to say I'm all for the basics idea of what the Chief is talking about.
I've been a member for almost 20 years now, and to tell the truth - I'm ready for a change.

I've decided to hang up my Major epaulets & sew on the MSgt stripes. By following the example of our Command Chief, I hope that I'll be able to help improve the organization.

[SAR-EMT1]

Add a requirement to each level of SM professional development that requires them to take and pass a leadership test that includes drill would enforce the need to listen to these people.

That is all that I was ever asking for.

APPLAUDS!!! :clap: BELLS, WHISTLES, NAKED BELLY DANCERS ... NAKED BELLY DANCERS

Do that and put in place an actually augmentation program where we can be used on base and I will be happy for the rest of my life.

Tags -  MIKE

[SAR-EMT1]

Um..ok, apologies, I guess I havent figured out the tags quite yet... back to "the playpen" 

[MIKE]

Um..ok, apologies, I guess I havent figured out the tags quite yet... back to "the playpen" 

N00b.