Dogtags

[usafcap1]

So my squadron bought a 1940s Dogtag machine. The form we have to fill out to get our Dogtags asks: Branch of service. So I guess my question is what is my branch of service. . . Is it  USAF, USAFA, USAFCAP, USAFACAP, CAP, USAF-CAP. Just wondering before I spend money on DTs then find out that there wrong.



Thanks

[Eclipse]

CAP or USAF AUX.

[SarDragon]

Why do you need dog tags?

[Extremepredjudice]

Why do you need dog tags?

In case SM bagodoughnuts dies valiantly making more coffee.

[SarDragon]

SM Bagodonuts is already required to have his membership/ID card in his possession, so tags are redundant.

[flyboy53]

It goes in this order...at least that's how my dog tags are stamped:

Last Name
First Name and Middle Initial
SSAN and service (mine is XXX-XX-XXXX AF (I would recommend CAP here)
Blood Type
Religion (not sure if this is mandatory or optional)

As far as why...why not...I have four sets...and still wear one with a third tag that has AF Core Values stamped on it...gives you an idea of how many times I either deployed or was deployable.

Some purests will lace one or more dog tag into their boots. I still wear one set; old habits are hard to break. It's also because I'm an active aircrew member.

[Eclipse]

SM Bagodonuts is already required to have his membership/ID card in his possession, so tags are redundant.

Not when Bago's crispy remains are intermingled with those of others, or he is incapacitated far from home.

I wear them when I'm in those situations with CAP - better that the family can get my death certificate early and not have to
delay their trip to Hawaii.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Because when you are already used to wearing something and you don't wear it or try something else, it just doesn't feel right. Like being married for years wearing a wedding ring and not having it one day just feels weird.

[abdsp51]

Don't wear  them unless deployed.  Had a special set made up for me and an ex-gf that I wore in my boot.  I'm curious as to why we in would need a set?

[lordmonar]

Well...if you got the machine and it doesn't cost that much.....why not?  Of course you don't need it...but if it makes you feel good....go for it.

[wuzafuzz]

Challenge Dog Tags are cheaper than Challenge Coins  ;-)

I'll take a set bearing the title "Emperor of The Universe, Class Clown, and CUL"

[Flying Pig]

It goes in this order...at least that's how my dog tags are stamped:

Last Name
First Name and Middle Initial
SSAN and service (mine is XXX-XX-XXXX AF (I would recommend CAP here)
Blood Type
Religion (not sure if this is mandatory or optional)As far as why...why not...I have four sets...and still wear one with a third tag that has AF Core Values stamped on it...gives you an idea of how many times I either deployed or was deployable.

Some purests will lace one or more dog tag into their boots. I still wear one set; old habits are hard to break. It's also because I'm an active aircrew member.

It would say either "None" or "No Pref"  At least thats how I saw them when I was in . 

They would probably be cool for cadets.  But there would be no reason in CAP unless your in an incident where you think you may be demolished beyond identification and your body left in a field somewhere in a foreign land.  As a grunt, one goes in your boot, the other either goes around your neck or (as we all did it in the infantry) looped it through your right side belt look and stuck the chain and tag in your right pocket.  Most grunts I new didnt wear it around their neck.  I didnt.  The chain was always pulling the hair out of my chest!
9 times out of 10 the one in the boot was the only one anybody ever wore.  Novelty for CAP?  Yes. Needed?  No.  It would be fun though until you really stopped to think about why service members wear them.

[ol'fido]

My unit was OC when it came to dogtags. You had to wear them on duty and in the field. You had to wear both on a chain around the neck(including one on the small chain). Plus if you had allergies, you had to wear the red allergy/medical alert tag. I usually pulled the guts out of a piece of 550 cord and fed the long chain through it so that the chain was only a little longer than the 550 and then I used 100 mph tape to tape the tags and the little chain together. The 550 cord and the tape worked a lot better than the silencer kits they sold at the PX.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I couldn't stand the kits, they were junk. I wear them as they come, except for taping the tags together.

[Ford73Diesel]

I don't know if I would put my SSN on it if I didn't have to. You know how cadets loose things... A metal tag with your SSN floating around is like asking for someone to steal your identity.

[SarDragon]

Then use the CAPID.

[flyboy53]

It goes in this order...at least that's how my dog tags are stamped:

Last Name
First Name and Middle Initial
SSAN and service (mine is XXX-XX-XXXX AF (I would recommend CAP here)
Blood Type
Religion (not sure if this is mandatory or optional)

As far as why...why not...I have four sets...and still wear one with a third tag that has AF Core Values stamped on it...gives you an idea of how many times I either deployed or was deployable.

Some purests will lace one or more dog tag into their boots. I still wear one set; old habits are hard to break. It's also because I'm an active aircrew member.

It would say either "None" or "No Pref"  At least thats how I saw them when I was in . 

They would probably be cool for cadets.  But there would be no reason in CAP unless your in an incident where you think you may be demolished beyond identification and your body left in a field somewhere in a foreign land.  As a grunt, one goes in your boot, the other either goes around your neck or (as we all did it in the infantry) looped it through your right side belt look and stuck the chain and tag in your right pocket.  Most grunts I new didnt wear it around their neck.  I didnt.  The chain was always pulling the hair out of my chest!
9 times out of 10 the one in the boot was the only one anybody ever wore.  Novelty for CAP?  Yes. Needed?  No.  It would be fun though until you really stopped to think about why service members wear them.

I hated the siliencer kts, too. All that plastic made it seem like you were wearing something heavy around your neck. Then I was reminded one day that all that plastic melts if you're in that situation.

The coolest part of dog tags for my family was that both of my kids were born during Desert Storm and each was issued two sets of dog tags as military dependents. One of each set had "Desert Stork" stamped on the bottom line. The tags came from the CBPO when they were enrolled in DEERS.

As far as CAP goes; I was in a unit years ago on a base in Ohio and that squadron commander had dog tags made up for morale purposes and would give one with a letter of commendation for those acts that warranted it. I still have the letter with the tag attached.

[Al Sayre]

Y'all aren't thinking outside the box.  This is a great fundraising idea.  Take that puppy to local air shows, gun shows etc. and sell the tags for $5.00/set.  You can probably fund sending 2 or 3 cadets to encampment for every day you're there...

[RMW14]

I understand that CAP has no real need for the intended purpose of the tags, if I could get my hands on one of those machines, it could be a neat thing for cadets. I am not sure if anyone else on here was in the PA Wing in the 90's, but at the end of Encampment, every cadet that completed was given a set of tags with name, Civil Air Patrol, Encampment East, the year of encampment, and FTIG (Fort Indiantown Gap) stamped on them. Considering this was 1996 when I went to Encampment and I still have them sitting on my desk, the tags can also give a cadet something to keep with them besides the memories or the certificate.

I also like the fundraiser idea!

[bflynn]

Why do you need dog tags?

In case you get killed, shot or blown up, they can identify the body for the next of kin.  There's two you see.  You take one so you can use it to report someone KIA and the other you leave with the body in a secure location - depending on the wound, that could be inside the chest cav...

Oh, you mean why does CAP need them?  So they can be military pretenders.  There's no other reason.

[johnnyb47]

Why do you need dog tags?

In case you get killed, shot or blown up, they can identify the body for the next of kin.  There's two you see.  You take one so you can use it to report someone KIA and the other you leave with the body in a secure location - depending on the wound, that could be inside the chest cav...

Oh, you mean why does CAP need them?  So they can be military pretenders.  There's no other reason.

Heh.
The Uniforms, drill, ribbons, medals, rank structure, C&C's and ES gear are all ok... BUT YOU DOG TAG GUYS ARE WANNA-BEES!
Sorry.... just got a chuckle out of that.

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

Why do you need dog tags?

In case SM bagodoughnuts dies valiantly making more coffee.

Even a minor coffee accident would probably melt the CAPID card.

[Major Lord]

Hey, you guys should sell them as a SQ fundraiser! Note, don't wear DogTags when traveling on airlines: The TSA won't get it, but when Achmed the terrorist is walking down the aisle of the aircraft looking for someone to decapitate on Youtube, you are pretty much volunteering. Also, the metal ball-chains can lead to snagging and accidental electrocution, and substituting Paracord can leave you as well hung as Judas Iscariot. They make excellent toe-tags and patient care bracelets, so make sure that no one guesses at their blood type- if they list the wrong type, a transfusion reaction could kill them.

This is probably moot, since I read yesterday that the Obama administration had declared the war on terror over. I did not get the Memo; Does anyone know who won?

Put me down for a set. I would like one each  for my three mini Australian shepherds too! Blood type: "Dog", Religion? "Catlick"!

Major Lord

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Hey, you guys should sell them as a SQ fundraiser! Note, don't wear DogTags when traveling on airlines: The TSA won't get it, but when Achmed the terrorist is walking down the aisle of the aircraft looking for someone to decapitate on Youtube, you are pretty much volunteering. Also, the metal ball-chains can lead to snagging and accidental electrocution, and substituting Paracord can leave you as well hung as Judas Iscariot. They make excellent toe-tags and patient care bracelets, so make sure that no one guesses at their blood type- if they list the wrong type, a transfusion reaction could kill them.

This is probably moot, since I read yesterday that the Obama administration had declared the war on terror over. I did not get the Memo; Does anyone know who won?

Put me down for a set. I would like one each  for my three mini Australian shepherds too! Blood type: "Dog", Religion? "Catlick"!

Major Lord

You are sick and dark... Thank you for the laugh, nice start to the day.

[Major Lord]

You are sick and dark... Thank you for the laugh, nice start to the day.
[/quote]

I just like to encourage Squadrons to do anything! An object at rest tends to remain at rest, said my old pal Ike. Or to quote another great thinker ( Ned Flander's Dad from "the Simpson's) " We tried nuthin!....and we're all out of ideas!"

I bet we could sharpen one edge of the dog tag and wear it on our key chain in a rubber anti-jingle sleeve. This way, we could sleep well knowing that we pulled something over on the TSA! (Note, please don't tell them I said this.....)

Major Lord

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

Also, the metal ball-chains can lead to snagging and accidental electrocution, and substituting Paracord can leave you as well hanged as Judas Iscariot.

FTFY

[commando1]

Why is it, that every time a cadet wants to do something the military does, it makes them a wannabee? I have worn dog tags every day since I was 11. It is an excellent identification marker. We see accidents all the time where the body is mutilated or disfigured. If I want to make sure my remains are correctly identified, whats that to you? Or if I pass out drunk at some party and want to make sure they know who I am, whats that to you? Why does that make me a wannabee? I do not understand this. 

[jimmydeanno]

Or if I pass out drunk at some party and want to make sure they know who I am, whats that to you?

Wait, is this the joke about why the Navy sews their name on the back of their pants?

[Eclipse]

Wait, is this the joke about why the Navy sews their name on the back of their pants?

Wait, doesn't everyone?

[SAR-EMT1]

Just the Navy...

And isn't that so that their clothing can be identified on laundry day ?

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I don't think anyone is dogging on the cadet. It's fine to wear dog tags, we are just sharing our experiences with dog tags. And making some rather hilarious jokes.
I carried my dog tags in myback pocket when I was deployed. Those suckers could get hot... But it wasn't a recruiting commercial wearing a t-shirt and ruck with my dog tags flopping around my neck through the desert being chased by an Apache... I wish...

[ColonelJack]

For what it's worth, I wear dog tags too.  CAP-specific ones, with my CAPID in place of the SSN.

And I'm not any kind of "wannabe" ... I'm a "has-been."  (Wait, that didn't come out right.)  I mean, I'm a "BTDT."  Yeah.  That's what I meant.

Jack

[Eclipse]

And isn't that so that their clothing can be identified on laundry day?

No, it's so you can identify your troops from the rear, though not sure if they still do that with the NWU, as the "above the right rear pocket" area
is no longer visible.

[68w20]

And isn't that so that their clothing can be identified on laundry day?

No, it's so you can identify your troops from the rear, though not sure if they still do that with the NWU, as the "above the right rear pocket" area
is no longer visible.

It's still there, I saw a few recruits wearing them at NAVSTA GL this weekend.  The tape was in the same place on BDU/DCUs as well, so it carried over to the NWU.

[Cliff_Chambliss]

Just took a look at mine from the Vietnam era:
1st Line: Last Name
2d Line:  First Name M.I.
3d Line:  Service Component - RA (Regular Army) and Serial #
4th Line: Blood Type and Social Security #
5th Line: Religous Preference

[Flying Pig]

Just the Navy...

And isn't that so that their clothing can be identified on laundry day ?

The Marines do it too

[vento]

Just the Navy...

And isn't that so that their clothing can be identified on laundry day ?

The Marines do it too

Some Navy guys in our squadron never fail to argue that the Marines are part of the Navy, and they always get the "stare" from the retired Marines. (I am almost sure that those stares can really burn a hole)  :angel:

[jimmydeanno]

Just the Navy...

And isn't that so that their clothing can be identified on laundry day ?

The Marines do it too

Some Navy guys in our squadron never fail to argue that the Marines are part of the Navy, and they always get the "stare" from the retired Marines. (I am almost sure that those stares can really burn a hole)  :angel:

Insert obligatory, "yeah, the men's department" joke here.

[SarDragon]

Just the Navy...

And isn't that so that their clothing can be identified on laundry day ?

Actually, the laundry mark goes inside the waist band, or on the tail of the shirt. 

[SarDragon]

In my unit, the majority of the former military folks are Navy, but the commander was a Marine. We have at least one inter-service rivalry joke at every meeting.

[Flying Pig]

When the Marines formed (in a bar) they were put on the ships to do mens work....fight.  Nuff said.  237 years later........

[Extremepredjudice]

When the Marines formed (in a bar) they were put on the ships to do mens work....fight.  Nuff said.  237 years later........

Sir, what about females?


SEXIST 
^Joking for the more serious of the group

[abdsp51]

Take a look the Corps seal and you'll Department of The Navy before United States Marine Corp.

[CAP_Marine]

Somebody's got to drive us around and sign the paychecks!

[Flying Pig]

When the Marines formed (in a bar) they were put on the ships to do mens work....fight.  Nuff said.  237 years later........

Sir, what about females?


SEXIST 
^Joking for the more serious of the group

How dare you be prejudice.... oh wait...that was a joke huh

[Flying Pig]

Take a look the Corps seal and you'll Department of The Navy before United States Marine Corp.

It was in the MOU.  Darn lawyers were screwing things up back then too!

[Pylon]

Take a look the Corps seal and you'll Department of The Navy before United States Marine Corp.

Yeah, we're part of the Navy. The men's department.

And isn't that so that their clothing can be identified on laundry day?

No, it's so you can identify your troops from the rear, though not sure if they still do that with the NWU, as the "above the right rear pocket" area
is no longer visible.

Still do it on MARPAT cammies.

[Private Investigator]

Take a look the Corps seal and you'll Department of The Navy before United States Marine Corp.

Yeah, we're part of the Navy. The men's department.

:clap: :clap:

[bflynn]

Yeah, we're part of the Navy. The men's department.

You're the Navy's personal Army.  You're what I always meant when I said "Oh, you're in the Army?  Yeah, we've got one of those too."

[Pylon]

You're the Navy's personal Army.  You're what I always meant when I said "Oh, you're in the Army?  Yeah, we've got one of those too."

Hey, you can pretend like we're your personal Army all you want, as long as you Navy guys get us where we want to play and keep sending us BAMF Corpsmen.  My A-- Rides In Navy Equipment, but once we're on land, all bets are off: we'll be doing what we do best.  Okay, well, second best after NJPs...

[Cliff_Chambliss]

A writer mentioned dogtags as a "marker". Unfortunately that is a road I had to travel.  It was my oldest daughters senior year in high school (1989) and she and her fiance (Troy) and her friends were at the school practicing their graduation stunts. The phone rang and it was our younger daughters best friend and she was sayint there was a bad car wreck down the road from her house and it looked like her brother's (Troy's) car and she was scared.  My wife and I drove down and it was in fact Troy's car.   The sheriff was on site and said there was one fatality and one still trapped in the car and asked if I could make an identification.  The car was upside down and there were extensive facial injuries to both occupants and since Troy and his best friend were in the habit of swapping clothes even remembering what he was wearing when he was at our house was not a reliable hint.  Everyone was thinking that since it was Troy's car he would be the one driving.  Bad assumption, it was not Troy driving but his friend but we did not know this until after they had cut Troy from the car and found he was wearing his Dad's dogtags.
Then it was a long 5 miles home to tell my daughter her fiance had been killed.
Kids being kids, swapping clothes and car, not carryng their ID on their persons.  Fears, uncertainities, hopes, and then the terrible truth being known early on because of an old set of dogtags. 

[Major Lord]

A little off-topic, but the Marines are awesome, even the female marines! I think of the debt our Country owes them, and how we have let them down in so many ways. From Congressman Murtha's baseless accusations resulting in failed Court's Marshall against Marines in the so-called "Haditha" incident, to having the Navy leave them on Wake Island to face capture or death while they sailed off into the sunset.

Personally, I would not be alive if it had not been for the Marine Corp. First, my Grandfather married a Spanish lady in Nicaragua when the Corp was down there chasing banditos. In another incident, they saved my bacon in Honduras, and last, they saved me from a gang of Crips in the Los Angeles bus terminal, when the young lads had me outnumbered 8 to 1, and I had only my trusty 5 shot S&W model 36. In Hurricane Katrina, they kicked butt and took no names, and when an Army Corp of Engineer civilian group was fired upon, well, lets just say that Uncle Sam's Misguided Children made one more house into a heap of rubble.

If America had a Samurai Class, it would consist entirely of Marines. The Navy would be their porters, but with big rifles on their ships, and some good air support, the canoe club can be forgiven for their village-people fascination with all things Uniform.....Sound like anybody we know?

Major Lord

[johnnyb47]

A writer mentioned dogtags as a "marker". Unfortunately that is a road I had to travel.  It was my oldest daughters senior year in high school (1989) and she and her fiance (Troy) and her friends were at the school practicing their graduation stunts. The phone rang and it was our younger daughters best friend and she was sayint there was a bad car wreck down the road from her house and it looked like her brother's (Troy's) car and she was scared.  My wife and I drove down and it was in fact Troy's car.   The sheriff was on site and said there was one fatality and one still trapped in the car and asked if I could make an identification.  The car was upside down and there were extensive facial injuries to both occupants and since Troy and his best friend were in the habit of swapping clothes even remembering what he was wearing when he was at our house was not a reliable hint.  Everyone was thinking that since it was Troy's car he would be the one driving.  Bad assumption, it was not Troy driving but his friend but we did not know this until after they had cut Troy from the car and found he was wearing his Dad's dogtags.
Then it was a long 5 miles home to tell my daughter her fiance had been killed.
Kids being kids, swapping clothes and car, not carryng their ID on their persons.  Fears, uncertainities, hopes, and then the terrible truth being known early on because of an old set of dogtags.

A somber reminder of what dog tags, now often viewed as a novelty item, were originally intended to be.
Thank you for sharing that and no matter how long ago or recent I'm still sorry for your loss.

[AngelWings]

Dogtags are amazing identification for ANYONE, not just the military. If that is being a wannabe, then I guess I love being one and think everyone should be a wannabe. Plastic melts in fires, meat tags (tattoo's with your information on them) can be destroyed with the rest of the skin in a fire, any disfiguring injury can stop visual recongnition, and sometimes a body can be so badly charred that you'd need to run bone marrow to identify someone. I wouldn't doubt that most of you would rather pay $5.00-10.00 for something that can save your family time and money identifying you just in case you are in a freak accident. The stories here prove this.

[bflynn]

Dogtags are amazing identification for ANYONE, not just the military.

Yes, and if you want to have dogtags for your personal identification, I think that's great.  I carried mine on my keys for years, but because it had my SSN on it, I quit.

If you want to have dogtags because it's cool solider gear...well, I think that's where this started, not with the utility of dogtags for identification.

[nathan88]

I had some made they say my first and last name CAPID and USAF AUX

[titanII]

My A-- Rides In Navy Equipment

I probably shouldn't say this where you're a Marine and a site administrator, but I've heard this one before:
Muscles Are Required Intelligence Not Essential



This was a joke, in good humor. Many of the members of the USMC are, in fact, intelligent.

[ol'fido]

Another good use for dogtags is to put your name, adress, and phone # on them along with your pet's name and attach them to their collar along with their vaccination tags. or attach them to anything else you want to readily identify as yours.

[PHall]

Blank dogtag + label maker + vehicle keys = end to vehicle key confusion.

[titanII]

Another good use for dogtags is to put your name, adress, and phone # on them along with your pet's name and attach them to their collar along with their vaccination tags. or attach them to anything else you want to readily identify as yours.

....I see what you did there, Sir. 

[usafcap1]

Why do you need dog tags?

My squadron got an engraving machine so we could sell engraved dog tags @ events like fairs, etc to raise money for things like scholarships for our members to attend different events such as encampment.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Another good use for dogtags is to put your name, adress, and phone # on them along with your pet's name and attach them to their collar along with their vaccination tags. or attach them to anything else you want to readily identify as yours.

....I see what you did there, Sir. 

Mine are as follows:

CHEWY
800 S STREET
CHICAGO, IL 60607
(XXX) XXX-XXXX

FOXY
800 S STREET
CHICAGO, IL 60607
(XXX) XXX-XXXX

I also have them micro-chipped.

[NateF]

I always enjoy reading a post that is made up of nearly infinite quantities of condescension.

The question here was what the standard information is and in what order. The question was followed almost instantly by posts asking "why do you need dog tags". That's alright, has nothing to do with the question, but its not condescending. What gets me is the number of comments saying things like, "because they are military wannabe's", and even better, comments like, "Dog tags are for when you get blown up, CAP doesn't need them".

I just don't understand why anyone would take that route. If one were to extend this logic to the regular military, they would have no reason to wear their tags unless in the field or deployed. Even in that case, the DoD has DNA samples from all soldiers, sailors and airmen, so does the regular military need them, or are servicemen just wannabe's longing to be a part of the period when there was no DNA testing or CAC cards providing positive identification?

Of course, that is all a little foolish isn't it? I am of the belief that dog tags would not be a bad idea for CAP to mandate for ES operations, particularly for aircrews and ground teams. In neither case is a body going to require dog tags to identify them if there was a mishap that resulted in a members death, but that isn't the only thing dog tags are for.

Dog tags serve up three very important pieces of info, even for CAP and what we do for operations:

1. Blood Type - Not a bad thing for medical personnel to have handy if someone did get seriously injured.
2. Religious Affiliation - Once again, with a deceased or injured member, you have the information needed to accommodate religious demands, in the most unfortunate circumstances should they arise.

And finally, I think this is the most important one of all:

3. A red medical dog tag with allergies and medical conditions listed. Now this is important. If a member was hurt at a cadet or senior activity, there should be similar medical info on their forms (at least on a CAPF 31). However, that isn't terribly useful for ground teams, even if, for some reason, there were 31's or another form elsewhere. Sure, you could keep a list in your pocket, which should hold up well when you get wet, or if it takes a spin in the washer or dryer, or when no one can read your hand writing.

I got out of the Army about a year ago, and I don't think I have even taken my dog tags off since I joined in 2004. In fact, I've have been considering ordering at least red medical tags for cadets with medical conditions at this years encampment.

When I was in the service, they were more of a rectangle sort of shape, a bit bigger than the typical non-magnetic, steel, dog tags that every soldier is issued. Given that this tag in particular is absolutely no different from a medical alert bracelet, except it's likely more comfortable to wear and has no reason why you would need to take it off when you are showering or whatever.

https://www.armydogtags.com/a_Medical.php

[Pylon]

^^This.  Thank you.


Another fine example of the CAPTalk dog pile tendency.


I know plenty of fellow Marines who wear their dog tags pretty much permanently.  Heck, I'm wearing mine right now at my apartment.  Completely unnecessary?  Probably.  Do service members absolutely need them while they're shopping for groceries, on libo, at the bar, or playing golf?  Not any more or less than anybody else including CAP members need to, but some here will conveniently ignore portions of the facts to fit their agenda.  Combat is not the exclusive domain of dog tags.  Once again, let's keep the conversations here civil.  Just because you don't subscribe to an idea doesn't mean you need to bash another person for wanting to do it -- especially some of our more motivated younger members.

[Noble Six]

I wear my tags every day.  Honestly it feels weird if I do not.  Let cadets wear them.  It is not hurting anyone.

[NateF]

Exactly, not hurting anyone in the least, and in all likelihood no harm or degradation of CAP's image will come of it, and there are lots of positives, like a few other people have mentioned.

One other thought, I have a CAP mini-van assigned to me, I've never needed the spare tire, should I take that out? I'm actually sure that I've needed my dog tags more often.

[bflynn]

Very well, I retract my earlier statement and apologize.  Thank you for educating me.