I am going to be a senior in 8 months. And told that SM's "Prank the new guy". So I am wondering what kind of "pranking" goes on?
That is privileged information. You know FOUO stuff...
If any of the seniors in my squadron were to prank a new SM they would be drawn and quartered where they stood ;).
hazing.jpg
What is "FTFY" and "FOUO"?
FTFY = Fixed That For You
FOUO = FOr Official Use Only
What kind of pranking? None, that would be hazing.
You're a smart guy, so you probably already know what I'm going to say next -
Being the new guy, sit back and listen. Despite what you know about cadets, you need to ease into the SM program. Despite those who believe they should be the same, they have different audiences, different maturity levels, different goals and they are different programs.
If you try to step in and start ordering people around like you know better, you will find out that they don't agree with how much you know.
That's twice that the term "hazing" was used.
We all know that term does not apply to Seniors, right?
You probably just heard wrong - new guy buys the donuts.
Quote from: Eclipse on May 28, 2012, 02:09:45 AM
That's twice that the term "hazing" was used.
We all know that term does not apply to Seniors, right?
So, no matter what we do to SMs they can't be hazed?
I'm afraid sir, SMs can be hazed. Maybe not under CAP regs, but under the law.
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on May 28, 2012, 02:14:22 AM
Maybe not under CAP regs, but under the law.
In most states, anti-hazing laws are directly related to students at schools and similiar related educational institutions,
of which CAP is neither.
My state, for example:
Sec. 5. Hazing. A person commits hazing who knowingly requires the performance of any act by a student or other person in a school, college, university, or other educational institution of this State, for the purpose of induction or admission into any group, organization, or society associated or connected with that institution if: There's a few states that have tried to broaden those covered, but even those contain language that make it clear the intention is to pertain to schools and educational institutions.
http://www.stophazing.org/laws.html (http://www.stophazing.org/laws.html)
In most cases, anything that would be considered "hazing" by adults would likely result in either
1) a punch in the nose
2) an internal complaint about "conduct unbecoming", etc.
3) an assault or similar criminal charge.
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on May 28, 2012, 02:14:22 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on May 28, 2012, 02:09:45 AM
That's twice that the term "hazing" was used.
We all know that term does not apply to Seniors, right?
So, no matter what we do to SMs they can't be hazed?
I'm afraid sir, SMs can be hazed. Maybe not under CAP regs, but under the law.
Pranks and hazing are two different things. I would be shot for how many times I prank people a day. A light hearted joke is alright. Not all pranks are random. Some happen when people do things, like join or leave an organization. Some happen when people get promoted. Anything can be spun as hazing, really. And the worst part, you're 99.9% probably being hypocritical. Please stop being a serious sanford and start having some fun. I don't want to see someone as decent acting as you waste your life being too serious over small things. Unless the prank is degrading...
Hell we played jokes on each other all the time in my old AFSC and it was taken as fun. Hazing can occur in any aspect however most of the laws and guidelines put in place are to protect minors, students, etc from hazing. Can it occur on the SM side maybe I have yet to see it but a prank as long as it's tasteful should not be considered hazing by any means.
We were told that hazing was so rampant in the Army, and we had to stop doing anything considered. In the spectrum of hazing. We were even told that we couldn't drive other's CIbs and wings into people's chests... But that didn't stop us.
Quote from: abdsp51 on May 28, 2012, 02:41:58 AM
Hell we played jokes on each other all the time in my old AFSC and it was taken as fun.
Police 5, need you to head over to the base clinic and ask for new fallopian tube's for the BAC tester... >:D
Quote from: NCRblues on May 28, 2012, 04:38:34 AM
Quote from: abdsp51 on May 28, 2012, 02:41:58 AM
Hell we played jokes on each other all the time in my old AFSC and it was taken as fun.
Police 5, need you to head over to the base clinic and ask for new fallopian tube's for the BAC tester... >:D
Classic especially if the clinic was in on it.. >:D lol.
I remember new airmen in the USAF being sent to base supply for 110 ft of flight-line or a new sky hook.
Bringing donuts sounds like a good idea! Or pizza. Or..........
Or how about accounting for aircraft keys or the audio seismic test...
Another case where SPPT is needed in CAP. What, you never heard of SPPT? It's Senior Protection Program Trainings, same as CPPT only more advanced.
I was part of this same discussion on a SDF board recently. To try to make this short - the defenders of hazing, pranks and bullying (which it all is in disguise) try to pass it off as good clean fun. At least some of your victims (yes I used the word) will not perceive it as such and PERCEPTION IS REALITY.
At best you can hope for is that they just get ticked off. At worse, you may have triggered a revenge seeker. They will get even. You cannot control how they get even. And their rationale is YOU STARTED IT.
So unless you are willing to take the consequences don't even think about hazing, pranking or bullying anyone because you never know who your are going to be dealing with.
Quote from: BillB on May 28, 2012, 10:37:18 AM
Another case where SPPT is needed in CAP. What, you never heard of SPPT? It's Senior Protection Program Trainings, same as CPPT only more advanced.
To save us from ourselves...
I remember things like exhaust sample from the HWMMV, you have to get the keys to the LZ, we need a new can of rotor wash, and my favorite was,,, you have to remember the old Prk-e-7 radio... I don't... But it was still funny sending a private to a SFC asking for pr*ck E-7 batteries. The irritating thing though, I loved sending new guys out for chem light batteries... Supply would then send them over to Bravo co and they would send them to Charlie, and so on and so on. And if the supply guys were really good, they could have the poor guy make two to three trips around the brigade before they got it. But after Iraq, in early 2007, I sent one after some chem light batteries, and he came back with AAAs, and I looked at him like WTF??? And he showed me a new chem light thingy that actually ran on batteries. I was irritated.
My absolute all time favorite "hazing" memory was when I was new in the Army. E-3 out of basic, and really big on ES as a cadet, I knew about map work. So they told me to go to supply and get a box of grid squares. So I asked for a map, and cut it into each grid square. I handed the Corporal a box of a map cut into tiny grid squares. No one else thought I was funny but me and the 1SG. Awesome time, I was smoked for the next three hours. But well worth it, because it was the first thing I was sent for, and they wouldn't be able to send me for anything else stupid.
SPPT? Hmm...Discussing the ways seniors prank each other might almost make RST(required staff torture) interesting, Almost.
The difference between pranking or hazing is how the target reacts to it. So before and during the joke, you don't know whether you're playing a practical joke or you're hazing them.
Seniors are (or are supposed to be) mature enough that we do not need regulations to tell us how to behave. Playing a joke on a new person is inconsistent with the core value of Respect. As you cannot know in advance how a new person will react to it, Respect requires that you withhold from pranking someone.
Quote from: bflynn on May 28, 2012, 04:23:54 PM
The difference between pranking or hazing is how the target reacts to it. So before and during the joke, you don't know whether you're playing a practical joke or you're hazing them.
Seniors are (or are supposed to be) mature enough that we do not need regulations to tell us how to behave. Playing a joke on a new person is inconsistent with the core value of Respect. As you cannot know in advance how a new person will react to it, Respect requires that you withhold from pranking someone.
Security Forces Going Away (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7dwx5UeKt0#ws)
They all must be hazing this poor gent. With the logic you've stated, giving a new guy any extra work (which I've seen is very common in all organizations). If the person really doesn't want to be played with, than they should state it. Then there is a respect problem. But when you have a good warning that is going to happen, it is your responsibility to set things straight.
Quote from: bflynn on May 28, 2012, 04:23:54 PM
The difference between pranking or hazing is how the target reacts to it. So before and during the joke, you don't know whether you're playing a practical joke or you're hazing them.
Seniors are (or are supposed to be) mature enough that we do not need regulations to tell us how to behave. Playing a joke on a new person is inconsistent with the core value of Respect. As you cannot know in advance how a new person will react to it, Respect requires that you withhold from pranking someone.
So I guess you NEVER played a joke on anyone?
Does blood pinning count as a prank?
Major Lord
Quote from: Major Lord on May 28, 2012, 05:38:54 PM
Does blood pinning count as a prank?
Major Lord[/quoted]
IMO no.
Quote from: abdsp51 on May 28, 2012, 05:42:11 PM
Quote from: Major Lord on May 28, 2012, 05:38:54 PM
Does blood pinning count as a prank?
Major Lord[/quoted]
IMO no.
That is what my post earlier was referring to. The Army considers it hazing, so we were told to stop... But that didn't stop us. It happened to those before us, and it happened to us, and I'm sure it's still happening to them today. I have scars (ha... My phone corrected scars to SARS no I don't have SARS) from my blood pinnings, and no, I didn't mind it, it was another group of people accepting me into their group. It was an honor.
Quote from: Major Lord on May 28, 2012, 05:38:54 PM
Does blood pinning count as a prank?
Major Lord
When I was promoted I was promoted to Cpl in the Marines, I was in my B's....tan shirt and blue trousers. I had my Cpl stripes tagged by a fist in formation by a Captain, and my blood stripe (red stripe down the side of a Marines blue trousers) tagged by a dead leg from the 1st Sgt and a punch in the gut by my Plt Sgt. Grunt life is a little >:D. That was prob 15 yrs ago now. Didnt bother me in the slightest. But I would imagine the culture is alive and well after the lights go out ;D
Just remember, there is a Cadet Protection Program, there isn't a Senior Protection Program.
This comes under the heading of "No joke is too cruel if it's funny enough." But remember, pay backs are a b****.
Quote from: abdsp51 on May 28, 2012, 05:09:37 PMSo I guess you NEVER played a joke on anyone?
Of course I have. One went wrong. Later I realized was disrespectful of me to do it.
Quote from: PHall on May 28, 2012, 08:39:36 PM
This comes under the heading of "No joke is too cruel if it's funny enough." But remember, pay backs are a b****.
I'd say that it comes under the heading of No joke is respectful if it's cruel enough...
Quote from: Littleguy on May 28, 2012, 04:45:29 PMThey all must be hazing this poor gent.
Yes, I would qualify that as hazing.
Senior enlisted of each of the five branches agree that hazing is incompatible with the military. -
http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2012/03/military-hazing-not-tolerated-enlisted-leaders-say-032212/ (http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2012/03/military-hazing-not-tolerated-enlisted-leaders-say-032212/)
If that isn't enough for you, Secretary of Defense Panneta has stated that hazing will not be tolerated in the military branches. I'd presume that includes the civilian auxillaries. This includes all personnel.
Quote from: Littleguy on May 28, 2012, 04:45:29 PMWith the logic you've stated, giving a new guy any extra work (which I've seen is very common in all organizations). If the person really doesn't want to be played with, than they should state it. Then there is a respect problem. But when you have a good warning that is going to happen, it is your responsibility to set things straight.
this is a common mistake - preventing hazing is not the responsibility of the victim.
As far as giving extra work - no, that is not hazing unless it is meant to be degrading, insulting, dehumanizing or to cause injury.
CAP is about 20-30 years behind on this. The services started working on this 20 years ago.
Quote from: bflynn on May 28, 2012, 09:41:00 PMCAP is about 20-30 years behind on this. The services started working on this 20 years ago.
Those with experience in these matters know that CAP is actually ahead of the situation and in line with the DOD policy on hazing.
To more directly answer the question of the original poster, I have never heard of any pranking or initiation rites for new senior members. I suppose its possible that your squadron has its share of former military or greek-system fraternities that have such a tradition, but I have never heard about anything like this anywhere in CAP. On the other hand, they will now have you worrying for 8 months, so maybe that IS the prank!
Major Lord
And keep an eye out for the black van.
And the Air Force Times should not be used as an official source for policy either. The AF especially the DoD has had a zero tolerance policy for as long as I can remember. CAP has had an anti hazing policy since I was a cadet and that was back in the mid 90s. Does it still happen sure it does, but actions taken after the fact are the determining factor.
The youtube clip shown can be a good example of hazing, but again how many would consider the tacking of stripes hazing as well? Or Better yet how about fini flights that occur service wide, can that not be considered hazing as well? In the clip I see an old way in the defender field of saying bye to a fellow co worker for whatever reason.
There is hazing and then there is good natured ribbing and having fun.
Quote from: abdsp51 on May 29, 2012, 12:29:59 AM
The youtube clip shown can be a good example of hazing, but again how many would consider the tacking of stripes hazing as well? Or Better yet how about fini flights that occur service wide, can that not be considered hazing as well? In the clip I see an old way in the defender field of saying bye to a fellow co worker for whatever reason.
That video is actually pretty calm. I would have been very VERY offended if I was not given a proper send off. I detest the traditions VS. hazing debate.
Quote from: bflynn on May 28, 2012, 09:41:00 PM
Quote from: Littleguy on May 28, 2012, 04:45:29 PMThey all must be hazing this poor gent.
Yes, I would qualify that as hazing.
Senior enlisted of each of the five branches agree that hazing is incompatible with the military. -
http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2012/03/military-hazing-not-tolerated-enlisted-leaders-say-032212/ (http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2012/03/military-hazing-not-tolerated-enlisted-leaders-say-032212/)
If that isn't enough for you, Secretary of Defense Panneta has stated that hazing will not be tolerated in the military branches. I'd presume that includes the civilian auxillaries. This includes all personnel.
Quote from: Littleguy on May 28, 2012, 04:45:29 PMWith the logic you've stated, giving a new guy any extra work (which I've seen is very common in all organizations). If the person really doesn't want to be played with, than they should state it. Then there is a respect problem. But when you have a good warning that is going to happen, it is your responsibility to set things straight.
this is a common mistake - preventing hazing is not the responsibility of the victim.
As far as giving extra work - no, that is not hazing unless it is meant to be degrading, insulting, dehumanizing or to cause injury.
CAP is about 20-30 years behind on this. The services started working on this 20 years ago.
When someone is forwarned of any danger, isn't it up to them to make a move? Unlike other clubs, we are subjected to a higher standard and to respect someones decision to not want to be initiated the traditional way. We can get reported and get in some SERIOUS trouble if they report us. That cloud is enough to stop a traditional initiation that could be close to hazing.
The man in the video, along with all participants, willingly accepted it. It is a right of passage for them. It makes someone feel like part of the family...oddly.
Quote from: Flying Pig on May 28, 2012, 07:14:06 PM
Quote from: Major Lord on May 28, 2012, 05:38:54 PM
Does blood pinning count as a prank?
Major Lord
When I was promoted I was promoted to Cpl in the Marines, I was in my B's....tan shirt and blue trousers. I had my Cpl stripes tagged by a fist in formation by a Captain, and my blood stripe (red stripe down the side of a Marines blue trousers) tagged by a dead leg from the 1st Sgt and a punch in the gut by my Plt Sgt. Grunt life is a little >:D. That was prob 15 yrs ago now. Didnt bother me in the slightest. But I would imagine the culture is alive and well after the lights go out ;D
15 years ago was soft. Now 35 years ago was hard core Corps >:D
Semper Fi
Quote from: abdsp51 on May 29, 2012, 12:29:59 AM
There is hazing and then there is good natured ribbing and having fun.
It is all in fun until you put somebody's eye out. Or when the victim commits suicide.
The best way to determined if it is hazing or not is; Would you tell your mother what you did? Case closed ...
Quote from: Private Investigator on May 29, 2012, 02:09:47 AM
The best way to determined if it is hazing or not is; Would you tell your mother what you did? Case closed ...
Or your boss, or his boss ... you get the idea.
Maybe the 'fun' stops when they guy you bullied lets all the air out of all your tires in an underground parking garage. As someone else wrote - Payback is a ....
And in case it didn't make it to your local news show, here is where your fun and games ends up, whether the victim consented or not.
Florida A&M Band Hazing Death: Robert Champion agreed to initiation ritual, bandmates say (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57440138-504083/florida-a-m-band-hazing-death-robert-champion-agreed-to-initiation-ritual-band-mates-say/)
And don't try to comfort yourself that it was an isolated incident and it could never could happen in your group (whatever your group is). The Marching Band has a tradition of hazing that goes back decades and the death wasn't the first serious injury.
Crossing the line for camaraderie (http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/page/FAMU-hazing/culture-hazing-florida-university-band-members-continued-years)
Quote from: Littleguy on May 29, 2012, 01:41:43 AM
When someone is forwarned of any danger, isn't it up to them to make a move? Unlike other clubs, we are subjected to a higher standard and to respect someones decision to not want to be initiated the traditional way. We can get reported and get in some SERIOUS trouble if they report us. That cloud is enough to stop a traditional initiation that could be close to hazing.
The man in the video, along with all participants, willingly accepted it. It is a right rite of passage for them. It makes someone feel like part of the family...oddly.
FTFY.
Quote from: SarDragon on May 29, 2012, 06:19:13 AM
Quote from: Littleguy on May 29, 2012, 01:41:43 AM
When someone is forwarned of any danger, isn't it up to them to make a move? Unlike other clubs, we are subjected to a higher standard and to respect someones decision to not want to be initiated the traditional way. We can get reported and get in some SERIOUS trouble if they report us. That cloud is enough to stop a traditional initiation that could be close to hazing.
It does not matter if the "victim" is forwarned and is agreeable to the incident. a few years back, we had a cadet earn his Mitchell. He knew he was going to get a cream pie down his pants. His parents knew it and brought a camera to the meeting. Prior to the event, the cadet changed out of his blues and in to a flight suit. He got the pie down the front of him and everybody laughed, including mom and dad. The only problem was that we had a visitor from another squadron who reported it. A cadet protection violation was filed and the squadron commander got suspended.
The ruling was that even if the individual being "hazed" is a willing participant, hazing is hazing. :(
In my 18 years in CAP, I must admit that I never even heard of this sort of crap, so I am a bit disturbed to see that there are people who claim to be adults who seem to have regressed to the "child" stage. It is fun only for those perpetrating the nonsense.
I choose not to participate in this kind of thing and the squadron/cc (Who was an Annapolis graduate by the way) is no longer a member of CAP. Our squadron doesn't participate in this stuff either. My only intent was to point out that a "willing victim" is no defense.
I think we all agree that hazing and hazing type rituals have no place in CAP. We are only stating that it happens, and it it not always unwelcome. I would have been rather upset if I didn't get a ritualistic send off from the Infantry. It is a ritualistic world, and it is rather expected. I would also have been upset if there was no ritual sort of thing when I was pinned with my CIB. But that is a different world, and CAP is not ritualistic, or anything of the sort. Not to mention the hundreds of different types of people that are in CAP. It doesn't belong HERE.
When I got my COP back in 1963, I got the old toss in the pool trick. Thank goodness I was wearing my khakis and not my blues.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on May 29, 2012, 03:56:18 PM
I think we all agree that hazing and hazing type rituals have no place in CAP. We are only stating that it happens, and it it not always unwelcome. I would have been rather upset if I didn't get a ritualistic send off from the Infantry. It is a ritualistic world, and it is rather expected. I would also have been upset if there was no ritual sort of thing when I was pinned with my CIB. But that is a different world, and CAP is not ritualistic, or anything of the sort. Not to mention the hundreds of different types of people that are in CAP. It doesn't belong HERE.
So you would like to do away with Encampment? >:D
Major Lord
What? Are cadets supposed to be hazed at encampment?
I never said anything about encampments that I know of.
Hazing rituals are taping someone to a tree throwing them off a ship or thing of the sort, like my 21st birthday in Iraq, I was taped to the barrel of an Abrams, and pink bellied. But encampment is a required training even for any cadet who wants their Mitchell. It is not a hazing ritual.
Quote from: Major Lord on May 29, 2012, 04:06:37 PM
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on May 29, 2012, 03:56:18 PM
I think we all agree that hazing and hazing type rituals have no place in CAP. We are only stating that it happens, and it it not always unwelcome. I would have been rather upset if I didn't get a ritualistic send off from the Infantry. It is a ritualistic world, and it is rather expected. I would also have been upset if there was no ritual sort of thing when I was pinned with my CIB. But that is a different world, and CAP is not ritualistic, or anything of the sort. Not to mention the hundreds of different types of people that are in CAP. It doesn't belong HERE.
So you would like to do away with Encampment? >:D
Say W H A T. ???
Major Lord
Quote from: Littleguy on May 29, 2012, 01:41:43 AM
When someone is forwarned of any danger, isn't it up to them to make a move? Unlike other clubs, we are subjected to a higher standard and to respect someones decision to not want to be initiated the traditional way. We can get reported and get in some SERIOUS trouble if they report us. That cloud is enough to stop a traditional initiation that could be close to hazing.
The man in the video, along with all participants, willingly accepted it. It is a right of passage for them. It makes someone feel like part of the family...oddly.
No, it isn't.
You cannot willingly accept hazing.
Quote from: Grumpy on May 29, 2012, 03:55:43 PM
I choose not to participate in this kind of thing and the squadron/cc (Who was an Annapolis graduate by the way) is no longer a member of CAP. Our squadron doesn't participate in this stuff either. My only intent was to point out that a "willing victim" is no defense.
I'm really surprised to hear the topic even brought up too. And more than a little dismayed to find that so many apparently accept it or don't recognize it when they see it.
At least CAP apparently isn't 20 years behind...just still some who don't get it...
Your right, some don't get it. It is as perceived by the hazed. If they perceive it as hazing, it is hazing. If they don't, then it is still gray as to whether it is hazing. If it is taken well, and meant in a good manner, then, I wouldn't think it as hazing. If it is accepted though, yet not meant in a good manner it is still hazing.
But regardless, it should not be done in CAP, nor in most of the world.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on May 29, 2012, 05:57:47 PMIf it is taken well, and meant in a good manner, then, I wouldn't think it as hazing.
That is the part that is maddening - whether it is taken in a good manner or not, it is still considered hazing.
Then lets abolish all humor practical jokes and some age old traditions that have been around for ages.
If someone is going to be offended if they are played a practical joke on or go through a rite or passage process, than I can only imagine what else offends them. Some units have traditions. Some don't. If a tradition offends someone that much than I don't see why they could not either find a unit or simply tell the people who are about to do it to stop. If they do not listen, than it is hazing. All of you crazy politcal correctness advocates that want there to be no humor or semi uncomfortable experiences, please do not force yourselves onto longstanding traditions. If the person is getting harmed, stop it. If the person is clearly not wanting to go through with it, don't make them. Simple as that.
Some people might feel pressured or might be too afraid to speak up for themselves to tell people to stop. Whenever someone is brand new to a group, there is the potential for that. Especially when kids are involved.
Quote from: CAP4117 on May 29, 2012, 07:10:12 PM
Some people might feel pressured or might be too afraid to speak up for themselves to tell people to stop. Whenever someone is brand new to a group, there is the potential for that. Especially when kids are involved.
There should not be any traditions that could physically or mentally harm a normal cadet.
Thinking on it maybe alot of our courses in the DoD should be watered down and everything should be administrative for awards and jobs.
Practical jokes O.K! Something where there is a potential for harm is not even close to being acceptable.
Quote from: MSG Mac on May 29, 2012, 07:43:06 PM
Practical jokes O.K! Something where there is a potential for harm is not even close to being acceptable.
A tradition I've heard of, the duct tape to a roller chair and spun around for a minute is a tradition I've heard of. They allow the chair to stop, take off the duct tape, and say welcome to the organization/unit/whatever.
I keep hearing people defending hazing. Perhaps CAP isn't so far along as is suggested...
Hazing is any activity that is cruel, abusive, humiliating, oppressive, demeaning, or harmful.
It is forbidden with cadets by regulation. It is not not forbidden with seniors, but should not be done in any form by just plain good sense.
Various peole have suggested using your parents as an judging proxy. Here's a better one: Ask yourself - would you do this if General Schwartz (AF/CC) was present? Then why would you assume it's ok when he's not present?
This is something I've been through quite a bit of training on. Perhaps too much since it seem to have sunk in to a much deeper level.
Quote from: bflynn on May 29, 2012, 08:34:52 PM
I keep hearing people defending hazing. Perhaps CAP isn't so far along as is suggested...
Hazing is any activity that is cruel, abusive, humiliating, oppressive, demeaning, or harmful.
It is forbidden with cadets by regulation. It is not not forbidden with seniors, but should not be done in any form by just plain good sense.
Various peole have suggested using your parents as an judging proxy. Here's a better one: Ask yourself - would you do this if General Schwartz (AF/CC) was present? Then why would you assume it's ok when he's not present?
This is something I've been through quite a bit of training on. Perhaps too much since it seem to have sunk in to a much deeper level.
Do you see a difference between pranks and hazing? If so, what is that critical line between the two?
Quote from: RogueLeader on May 29, 2012, 08:42:54 PM
Do you see a difference between pranks and hazing? If so, what is that critical line between the two?
No. The 'difference' is claimed to exist by adults acting as children to justify their humilating others.
But if you want a definition:
Pranking is when your victim lets the air out of all your tires in retaliation and to see if you can take what you dish out.
Hazing is when your victim reaches for a weapon.
(http://www.brofist.org/hsr/src/12937294427.jpg)
Then lets ban hell week for BUD/s and every other special forces course, fini flights, tacking of stripes, the grog bowl at dining in's, spur rides for the Army to award the stetson and spurs, and lets go ahead and ban yelling in bmt, bct and boot camps.
No upper classmen are to with new academy cadets in any aspect accept as tutors under direct supervision of academy personel and lets get rid of BEAST for the AF and the Crucible for the Corp.
Oh and I make a motion to suggest that a bill be passed outlawing any sort of humor in the workplace or learning place.
Let's not forget EIB, and the five required jumps for airborne school, the entire turning blue ceremony for Infantry, the West Point Green Book, required haircuts, workplace dress codes, 16th and 18th, especially 21st birthdays, drill, and anything else that can have to do with traditions and rituals, so all of the Masons guild completely. Oh and military promotions and change of command.
C'mon, traditions are traditions, hazing is hazing, and pranks are pranks. Again, hazing and pranks have no place in CAP, WE ALL AGREE. But traditions are just that, traditions, if they include a rite of passage, then it is up to the individual to go through them. BUT NOT IN CAP!
Oh yeah and lets just home schol our kids to and gave no formal training for people.
Quote from: bflynn on May 29, 2012, 08:34:52 PM
Hazing is any activity that is cruel, abusive, humiliating, oppressive, demeaning, or harmful.
So, I have a question(s) for you then...
What do you tell a new airman at basic encampment when he does not want to make his bed BMT style because he believes it is demeaning and oppressive and humiliating?
What about the cadets assigned to KP for breakfast? I'm sure they think its all those things to wake up a before all the rest of the cadets to make food for them.
If hazing is any activity that the person THINKS its hazing...than we are in some serious trouble...
Quote from: Eclipse on May 28, 2012, 02:09:45 AM
That's twice that the term "hazing" was used.
We all know that term does not apply to Seniors, right?
I don't really care what you call it, if it happened, I'd slap it down.
Quote from: Flying Pig on May 28, 2012, 07:14:06 PM
Quote from: Major Lord on May 28, 2012, 05:38:54 PM
Does blood pinning count as a prank?
Major Lord
When I was promoted I was promoted to Cpl in the Marines, I was in my B's....tan shirt and blue trousers. I had my Cpl stripes tagged by a fist in formation by a Captain, and my blood stripe (red stripe down the side of a Marines blue trousers) tagged by a dead leg from the 1st Sgt and a punch in the gut by my Plt Sgt. Grunt life is a little >:D. That was prob 15 yrs ago now. Didnt bother me in the slightest. But I would imagine the culture is alive and well after the lights go out ;D
Yup I remember all that....I also remember having my lead sled pinned on, twice, once at Benning when I earned it, and again when I got back to my unit at Lejeune. Between the time I earned my lead sled and my gold wings, there was that well publicized incident involving the Marines from 2nd Air Delivery Plt pinning their gold wings on and it came out we weren't to do it anymore. Yeah that was ignored, sort of. Held privately with no dang cameras around. I would not have felt right wearing them if I hadn't been pinned.
Quote from: stillamarine on May 30, 2012, 12:42:55 AM
Quote from: Flying Pig on May 28, 2012, 07:14:06 PM
Quote from: Major Lord on May 28, 2012, 05:38:54 PM
Does blood pinning count as a prank?
Major Lord
When I was promoted I was promoted to Cpl in the Marines, I was in my B's....tan shirt and blue trousers. I had my Cpl stripes tagged by a fist in formation by a Captain, and my blood stripe (red stripe down the side of a Marines blue trousers) tagged by a dead leg from the 1st Sgt and a punch in the gut by my Plt Sgt. Grunt life is a little >:D. That was prob 15 yrs ago now. Didnt bother me in the slightest. But I would imagine the culture is alive and well after the lights go out ;D
Yup I remember all that....I also remember having my lead sled pinned on, twice, once a Benning when I earned it, and again when I got back to my unit at Lejeune. Between the time I earned my lead sled and my gold wings, there was that well publicized incident involving the Marines from 2nd Air Delivery Plt pinning their gold wings on and it came out we weren't to do it anymore. Yeah that was ignored, sort of. Held privately with no dang cameras around. I would not have felt right wearing them if I hadn't been pinned.
HEAR HEAR!!!
The original post questions whether or not there are any such traditions in CAP, and I think the answer is clearly NO. Blood pinnings, The King Neptune ceremony, etc., don't exist in CAP because we are not a band of brothers, just a bunch of people, all with their own agenda, and not fighting for any real common cause. We don't need these things here, because we are not asking the guy next to us to live, die and kill with us. In a way, I am glad that CAP has not even informally adopted these things, because it would cheapen the real deal. This is not a condemnation of CAP, just a reflection of what we really are. Collectively, we are a lot more "Alan Alda" than "John Wayne", and I think many of us sense of slow poisoning by estrogen, emasculating the once -proud aerial bombers of Sperm Whales and U-Boats. You see the death throes of the Sheep-Dogs ( For those of you who have no idea what this means, Google, Wolves, sheep, and sheepdogs) in CAP in such things as wanting to actually wear the USAF Uniform and ( god help us) French Hats and to have real missions, not just grabassercizes.
If on the other hand, your SQ actually does have some tradition, I would love to hear about it! I can hardly wait in fact! Short-sheeting? Ink on the Binoculars? Super glue on the toilet seat? My guess is that the senior prank is a Sasquatch or a Loch Ness Monster: Talked about but never actually observed by any credible source.
Major Lord
Since I've never heard of pranking the new guy, I thought this thread was about a new member named "Prank" ha.
Certainly not done at the unit's I've been too.
I guess the closest thing to "pranking" the new guy is making him the squadron commander ha.
Quote from: spacecommand on May 30, 2012, 02:32:04 AM
I guess the closest thing to "pranking" the new guy is making him the squadron commander ha.
Suddenly all those other tales don't sound so bad now, do they?
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on May 30, 2012, 01:00:27 AM
Quote from: stillamarine on May 30, 2012, 12:42:55 AM
Between the time I earned my lead sled and my gold wings, there was that well publicized incident involving the Marines from 2nd Air Delivery Plt pinning their gold wings on and it came out we weren't to do it anymore. Yeah that was ignored, sort of. Held privately with no dang cameras around. I would not have felt right wearing them if I hadn't been pinned.
HEAR HEAR!!!
This is great!!!! In an organization with cadets that are supposed to be learning the correct way to do things, we have a member bragging how when they were RM they IGNORED a legitimate order from their military superiors. And another member cheering him on.
Real nice example for the kids. And you wonder why you have trouble with some of the cadets. Why should your cadets listen to you or their own superiors when you feel free to brag about ignorning legitimate and highly publicized orders of your superiors?
Quote from: RRLE on May 30, 2012, 11:11:08 AM
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on May 30, 2012, 01:00:27 AM
Quote from: stillamarine on May 30, 2012, 12:42:55 AM
Between the time I earned my lead sled and my gold wings, there was that well publicized incident involving the Marines from 2nd Air Delivery Plt pinning their gold wings on and it came out we weren't to do it anymore. Yeah that was ignored, sort of. Held privately with no dang cameras around. I would not have felt right wearing them if I hadn't been pinned.
HEAR HEAR!!!
This is great!!!! In an organization with cadets that are supposed to be learning the correct way to do things, we have a member bragging how when they were RM they IGNORED a legitimate order from their military superiors. And another member cheering him on.
Real nice example for the kids. And you wonder why you have trouble with some of the cadets. Why should your cadets listen to you or their own superiors when you feel free to brag about ignorning legitimate and highly publicized orders of your superiors?
I don't know your background but you never ignored an order? Never ignored a rule? You never speed? Forget to wear your seatbelt?
Please. As an LEO I'm full aware that just about everyone breaks the law at some time to some extent. Doesn't make them a bad person.
To us we believed it was stupid. No one was getting permanently hurt. These were our brothers joining a long line of tradition. We bled beside each other that day from two little pins in our chests and bled together in foreign lands.
Quote from: NCRblues on May 30, 2012, 12:24:40 AM
Quote from: bflynn on May 29, 2012, 08:34:52 PM
Hazing is any activity that is cruel, abusive, humiliating, oppressive, demeaning, or harmful.
So, I have a question(s) for you then...
What do you tell a new airman at basic encampment when he does not want to make his bed BMT style because he believes it is demeaning and oppressive and humiliating?
What about the cadets assigned to KP for breakfast? I'm sure they think its all those things to wake up a before all the rest of the cadets to make food for them.
If hazing is any activity that the person THINKS its hazing...than we are in some serious trouble...
Hazing is not defined by the target, it is defined by the activity. Getting up early for PT or for KP is not cruel, abusive, humiliating, oppressive or harmful...although I know my son disagrees that it isn't cruel. Quite a few days, I agree with him.
So what do you do when the airman complains about it? You give them feedback on it immediately and make sure they have ownership of the issue. If they continue with the wrong behavior and it becomes a systemic issue, you continue to give them feedback about how it has become a systemic issue, including the possibility that it impacts future promotion events. If it still continues, you note it for inclusion in future actions. Are they ready to move up if they complain about serving others through KP? How can they expect to be a leader when they don't even understand why things like being able to make a bunk properly are necessary. Of course, if they don't understand, I'd call it a failure of leadership for not teaching, but the end result is the same - they are not prepared to lead.
Is it not clear? You cannot control others. All you can do is tell what the rules are, inform them when they excel or do not comply and note systemic actions on their part as a pattern of behavior that influences future decisions. This works for both positive and negative actions - and you should concentrate on the positive ones. Look for people to praise and praise them publicly. Then promote them. Those who care about recognition (and who doesn't like to be recognized) will react.
Quote from: bflynn on May 30, 2012, 02:07:48 PM
Quote from: NCRblues on May 30, 2012, 12:24:40 AM
Quote from: bflynn on May 29, 2012, 08:34:52 PM
Hazing is any activity that is cruel, abusive, humiliating, oppressive, demeaning, or harmful.
So, I have a question(s) for you then...
What do you tell a new airman at basic encampment when he does not want to make his bed BMT style because he believes it is demeaning and oppressive and humiliating?
What about the cadets assigned to KP for breakfast? I'm sure they think its all those things to wake up a before all the rest of the cadets to make food for them.
If hazing is any activity that the person THINKS its hazing...than we are in some serious trouble...
Hazing is not defined by the target, it is defined by the activity. Getting up early for PT or for KP is not cruel, abusive, humiliating, oppressive or harmful...although I know my son disagrees that it isn't cruel. Quite a few days, I agree with him.
So what do you do when the airman complains about it? You give them feedback on it immediately and make sure they have ownership of the issue. If they continue with the wrong behavior and it becomes a systemic issue, you continue to give them feedback about how it has become a systemic issue, including the possibility that it impacts future promotion events. If it still continues, you note it for inclusion in future actions. Are they ready to move up if they complain about serving others through KP? How can they expect to be a leader when they don't even understand why things like being able to make a bunk properly are necessary. Of course, if they don't understand, I'd call it a failure of leadership for not teaching, but the end result is the same - they are not prepared to lead.
Is it not clear? You cannot control others. All you can do is tell what the rules are, inform them when they excel or do not comply and note systemic actions on their part as a pattern of behavior that influences future decisions. This works for both positive and negative actions - and you should concentrate on the positive ones. Look for people to praise and praise them publicly. Then promote them. Those who care about recognition (and who doesn't like to be recognized) will react.
Spoken like a corporatist
Quote from: abdsp51 on May 30, 2012, 02:28:45 PM
Spoken like a corporatist
Odd since I learned that from an Army officer...
This is not a civilian vs military thing. It's a human interaction thing.
Promote those deserving not based on capability of being praised.
Stillamarine,
Its wolves, sheep, and sheepdogs man! No explanation will convert a sheep to a sheepdog, and to the sheep, the sheepdog looks an awful lot like the wolf, and the sheep is afraid. I find this both saddening and Joyful: none of us will ever to have place our lives in the hands of the sheep, and they can graze contentedly in the grassy meadows protected by the mantle of freedom built by the sheepdogs......
Major Lord
Quote from: abdsp51 on May 30, 2012, 02:57:50 PM
Promote those deserving not based on capability of being praised.
I think you missed that the one who is deserving, the one you praise and the one you promote is the same person.
In any case, you do not promote those who play pranks on others or those who haze others. Unless you want that to be the culture that you have. You have the culture that you reward.
I'll join others and echo that in my relatively short time here, I have not seen hazing or practical jokes going on, so I presume what I suggest is already done.
Quote from: bflynn on May 30, 2012, 05:28:10 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on May 30, 2012, 02:57:50 PM
Promote those deserving not based on capability of being praised.
I think you missed that the one who is deserving, the one you praise and the one you promote is the same person.
In any case, you do not promote those who play pranks on others or those who haze others. Unless you want that to be the culture that you have. You have the culture that you reward.
I'll join others and echo that in my relatively short time here, I have not seen hazing or practical jokes going on, so I presume what I suggest is already done.
Got it straight forward dictatorship enviroment with no humor allowed. And you promote based off the whole person not just those you praise. I have a chief who has a sense of humoe but is straight forward so you going to say he's not a chief and just an e9
Quote from: bflynn on May 30, 2012, 02:07:48 PM
Quote from: NCRblues on May 30, 2012, 12:24:40 AM
Quote from: bflynn on May 29, 2012, 08:34:52 PM
Hazing is any activity that is cruel, abusive, humiliating, oppressive, demeaning, or harmful.
So, I have a question(s) for you then...
What do you tell a new airman at basic encampment when he does not want to make his bed BMT style because he believes it is demeaning and oppressive and humiliating?
What about the cadets assigned to KP for breakfast? I'm sure they think its all those things to wake up a before all the rest of the cadets to make food for them.
If hazing is any activity that the person THINKS its hazing...than we are in some serious trouble...
Hazing is not defined by the target, it is defined by the activity. Getting up early for PT or for KP is not cruel, abusive, humiliating, oppressive or harmful...although I know my son disagrees that it isn't cruel. Quite a few days, I agree with him.
So what do you do when the airman complains about it? You give them feedback on it immediately and make sure they have ownership of the issue. If they continue with the wrong behavior and it becomes a systemic issue, you continue to give them feedback about how it has become a systemic issue, including the possibility that it impacts future promotion events. If it still continues, you note it for inclusion in future actions. Are they ready to move up if they complain about serving others through KP? How can they expect to be a leader when they don't even understand why things like being able to make a bunk properly are necessary. Of course, if they don't understand, I'd call it a failure of leadership for not teaching, but the end result is the same - they are not prepared to lead.
Is it not clear? You cannot control others. All you can do is tell what the rules are, inform them when they excel or do not comply and note systemic actions on their part as a pattern of behavior that influences future decisions. This works for both positive and negative actions - and you should concentrate on the positive ones. Look for people to praise and praise them publicly. Then promote them. Those who care about recognition (and who doesn't like to be recognized) will react.
You are kidding me right? You want me to give 'feedback' to the cadet who does not want to follow lawful orders? Please, that cadet is either doing the things I order him to do or he is going home. I can control others; it's called the chain of command. You don't like it than you are free to leave, but while the cadets are at my activity they follow my rules and CAP regulations.
Quote from: NCRblues on May 30, 2012, 06:10:50 PM
You are kidding me right? You want me to give 'feedback' to the cadet who does not want to follow lawful orders? Please, that cadet is either doing the things I order him to do or he is going home. I can control others; it's called the chain of command. You don't like it than you are free to leave, but while the cadets are at my activity they follow my rules and CAP regulations.
Kidding? No, I'm not kidding, you cannot control them, you cannot force them to do anything. You can order them and they voluntarily choose to follow the order or select consequences for not following it. That's not a philisophical discussion point, the idea that you control anyone else is an illusion. The sooner you accept the reality, the better leader you will become.
If you fail to properly motivate members or you spend their energy on things that demotivate them or you create conditions that demotivate them, they do not follow you and you've failed as a leader.
Of course, we weren't originally talking about cadets, which changes the equation a little.
I guess you missed the part in the cadet oath that says "obey my officers"
Quote from: abdsp51 on May 30, 2012, 10:22:43 PM
I guess you missed the part in the cadet oath that says "obey my officers"
Why should they? We have a current or former member of the RM bragging how he and his cohorts willingly and knowingly violated the order of their lawful superiors about hazing - because they think they know better.
He tried the lame excuse that 'everyone does it', ie break the law at some point. The RM has a code of honor. They have a higher standard then other people - yet they and a lot of you see no problem with them violating those orders because they 'know' better then their superiors. How do you think that sits with cadets? A civilain volunteer cadet is supposed to obey his civilian volunteer cadet and senior member officers but a member of the RM is applauded by some for publicly stating he and his unit violated ther orders. Strange organization - very strange.
Intra-unit humor is an important part of building unit cohesion and morale. A unit that does not allow a measure of good natured humor and some minor pranking but conforms to rampant political correctness in the name of some slanted version of professionalism is a soul dead place to work let alone volunteer your time. Might as well start a squadron with the members of the local ACLU. In any unit with good morale and unit cohesion, you will find a certain measure of good natured ribbing and good humor for all.
The key here is good natured, but also measured, and situation appropriate. Taking these in reverse order, you do not want to be pulling a stunt worthy of "Animal House" while taking a base tour, during a eval, or heaven forbid, on an actual mission. There is a time and a place but these and certain other situations are not it. Leaders must also know when to step in a put a stop to or tone down some of the more ambitious pranks. This is what I mean by measured. There is a big difference between having somebody run over to the FBO to get a can of prop wash and shoving their head in a toilet and flushing it( the old swirlie). if you can't tell the difference, you don't need to be here anyway. Leaders must also be ready to put in check that one guy that never seems to know when to shut it off. You all know the type.
Finally, there is the nature of the pranking. When it becomes personal or malicious, it is time for leaders to bring it to a screeching halt. You don''t make fun of somebody's religion, sex, race, sexuality, handicaps, etc. You don't do something to someone because "they did it to me when I was....". That seems to be the excuse I hear a lot when we try to tell cadets not to do something because it drifts in to the area of hazing at encampment.
Every year I work with a great bunch of people, cadet and senior, at the summer encampment. If front of the cadets we are correct and professional. Behind closed doors we have a lot of fun ribbing each other, playing the minor prank, making the odd joke. It's a bonding experience for us. You would be hard pressed to find another group that shows that much camaraderie from year to year. It is the main reason I go back to encampment year after year to work along with seeing 4 foot high cadet basics grow into outstanding young leaders and human beings. I suppose that's what it boils down to; the Lord(not the Major either) gave us a sense of humor so we could enjoy life. Go forth, prank nicely, and enjoy life.
RM must mean either Real Marines or Real Military so I am going to say it means Real Military. The military has a code of honor yes, has traditions yes, some of said traditions can/are viewed as hazing. A lot of said traditions are considered a right of passage for people involved. Going by the definition of hazing many agencies and organizations would be in trouble for it. Examples;
Fini Flights spraying someone with water from either a fire extinguisher or the fir dept upon completion of a aircrew members final flight. This can be considered hazing due to the time of year, time of day etc by the definition of hazing itself. Yet is common place AF wide.
Yelling during BMT, BCT and Boot Camp can be considered hazing as it can cause an individual to feel embarrassed, especially if they are constantly being yelled at.
Hell week for BUD/s, Ranger School, PJ/CCT training, SERE etc can be hazing as they use sleep deprivation, physical exertion, muscle failure, etc as part of their curriculum.
Any comedy show that involves audience participation especially if it uses "adult" humor can be considered hazing.
Not all orders are followed to the letter in the military and there are some that are so far out there it takes a lot of folks to make heads or tails of it, and some flat out put people at risk.
And ol'fido +1.
Quote from: RRLE on May 30, 2012, 11:55:00 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on May 30, 2012, 10:22:43 PM
I guess you missed the part in the cadet oath that says "obey my officers"
Why should they? We have a current or former member of the RM bragging how he and his cohorts willingly and knowingly violated the order of their lawful superiors about hazing - because they think they know better.
He tried the lame excuse that 'everyone does it', ie break the law at some point. The RM has a code of honor. They have a higher standard then other people - yet they and a lot of you see no problem with them violating those orders because they 'know' better then their superiors. How do you think that sits with cadets? A civilain volunteer cadet is supposed to obey his civilian volunteer cadet and senior member officers but a member of the RM is applauded by some for publicly stating he and his unit violated ther orders. Strange organization - very strange.
First off, you make it sounds like disobeying orders is a great thing. Most of the time, from my knowledge through hours of studying military history, not following orders cause bad things. If it was alright, or applaudable, for people to blatantly not follow orders, than I bet a lot of people would head home from Afghanistan. The rare instances where not following orders gets things done and is considered good are mostly in the direct line of fire of an enemy or orders that are done to save a few lives.
Secondly, RM is not an abbreviation you want to use...