New External AeroEd Program

[pixelwonk]

Holy mob mentality, Batman!

If posting uninformed opinions is just how some of you roll, ...well go ahead, I guess.
But I'd urge all to read the published stories and take a note or two from the more experienced members who just might be more informed about this issue before embarrassing yourselves further.


This thread needs a Ned.

[PA Guy]

Now, think about this.  Could they make a SEPERATE area for younger cadets that would be both fun and age appropiate for them?  Could they maybe start a program for younger kids, for them only?  Either way, I stay with my first opinion- the minimum age for a composite squadron should be 12.

You have just described the Junior Cadet pilot project we have been discussing.

[Grumpy]

14

[Chappy]

I am jumping in here late in the game but have been following the junior cadet program for some time.  I work with a regular composite squadron and a cadet squadorn in a junior high school.

I do not believe that making young children "cadets" is a good thing.  A 12 year old has a tough enought problems with the materials and 'leadership' development.  Most of the younger cadet program is adult driven which makes it little different than cub scouts.  

Our goal is to develop leaders with a little aerospace education thrown in there...not the other way around.

[Grumpy]

Amen, Chappy

[PA Guy]

I am jumping in here late in the game but have been following the junior cadet program for some time.  I work with a regular composite squadron and a cadet squadorn in a junior high school.

I do not believe that making young children "cadets" is a good thing.  A 12 year old has a tough enought problems with the materials and 'leadership' development.  Most of the younger cadet program is adult driven which makes it little different than cub scouts.  

Our goal is to develop leaders with a little aerospace education thrown in there...not the other way around.

I agree.  Of all the things they could have called their new program they had to choose Junior Cadet.  The use of the word "cadet" has caused nothing but confusion and angst in the CP community.

[RiverAux]

I definetely agree that "Junior Cadet" was a bad choice. 

[Grumpy]

What's wrong with the term "Cadet"?  They're definitely not " Seniors".  Besides that what do they call those young military types going through our academies?

[RiverAux]

Oddly enough while I don't like the term cadet in this context, the program sort of proves a point that I brought up in another thread http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=1433.0 -- that no matter how we have set up our organization to handle cadets and despite the "three mission" framework that is often used, the cadet program is technically a subset of one of our 5 (4 if you accept my re-write) missions --aerospace education. 

[dogboy]

PAWG just released it prior-year Financial.  (after a lawyer got involved).  Anyone that wants a copy please call the Wing Administrator there. 

They got $550,000 from the state, another $120,000 from donations and a few grants and the Philly school system is giving into the school program (slightly).  They also receive some of the most NHQ provided funds.

With that kind of money, there had to be a serious evaluation of the program at the end of the first year. Any idea where it can be found? I searched the PA Wing web page but found nothing.

I would like to see what outcomes there were from this $700,000.

[Pylon]

If you look at it from the standpoint of an external Aerospace Education initiative wherein young kids in schools learn about aviation and aerospace from a young age, it's a great application of our AE mission.   Calling them cadets?  Yes, I agree - maybe a bit questionable, since internally we will necessarily draw connections to the Cadet Program.  But understand these are two different programs with two different goals.

[NIN]

I'm sorry to say, I disagree entirely. I am a sociologist with extensive training in human development.

Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts are not quasi-military programs. (Evidence: have you ever seen them march? If you have, you know they don't practice.)

Funny, I learned formations and dress right dress in the Webelos.  Sure, we didn't march (much, if at all), but dress right dress, open and close ranks, and how to fall in were taught so we could have our uniforms inspected each night.

Maybe our Webelo leader was a little bit of a freak. Not sure.  The more I think about it, maybe he was. 

<snip>

The CAP Cadet program until recent madness, ALWAY had 14 or 15 as a minimum age. At this age, late middle school and high school,  kids have moved beyond neighborhood groups and are forming peer groups based on choice, ability, and interest. There's:  preppies, jocks, stoners, freaks, drama queens, surfers, skateboarders, tools, nerds and others (The names for these groups vary among schools but they're always there. I read about this in the FIRST sociology book I ever read Elmtown's Youth, 1949).

14 or 15?

Since when?  Maybe in the 1950s.

I joined as a cadet in 1981.  I was 14. I could have joined at 12.  Wish I had (I would have avoided the lame Boy Scout troop I went to, then...*sigh*).  The age minimum was "12 and completed 6th grade"

I have no problem with 12 year old cadets as long as we can get them into uniforms.

I do have issues with "less than 12 year old cadets" which we had for a time when the age minimum was changed to "12 years old OR attending 6th grade"  Hell, some home-schoolers were sending in 10 year olds claiming "They're attending our 6th grade.." Gimme a break!

This is where the CAP Cadet program should be, offering an alternative, not to the Cub Scouts, but for the late middle-school and high school kids to being a just a skateboarder, just a nerd, or just a jock. Instead, the lowering of the minimum age for Cadets drives out high school students and prevents them from joining. A sensible high school kid does not wants to be in a program with 12 year olds. It's humiliating.

Not quite.  If you recruit correctly, you're bringing in 12-14 year olds on a regular basis, 15-17 year olds infrequently. 

If a cadet is a high school student, they've likely been in CAP for a time and have advanced thru the program.  The 17 year old Airman happens, but far, far less frequently than we really need to concentrate on or base the strategic direction of the program on.  If a kid comes to CAP and says "I'm 16, I just got my driver's license, a car, and a hot girlfriend.." chances are he's going to be a "first term loss."   'Cuz he needs a job... 

But the illustration of a 12 year old marching around a 17 year old, while a wonderful counterpoint, is just not that typical or even easily possible.    You're not recruiting that many 17 year olds (and if you do, please tell me you're screening them with a membership board and making sure they're under no illusions about the program), and a 12 year old is going to be an A1C/SrA.  He'll be all of 13 before he becomes a C/NCO and starts ordering folks around!   (If your unit is  tiny, yeah, you may wind up with a C/A1C c/CC.  But what 17 year old is going to join that lame outfit in the first place?)

The minimum age for Cadets was lowered simply because the Cadet program was losing numbers. What wasn't considered was that what it gains in numbers from 12 year olds, it looses from the 16, 17 and 18 year olds never join or drop out because they don't want to associate with kids that young  and because the program is standards and activities have been lowered to accommodate young children.

Like I said, the cadet program has had 12 as its minimum age (in various forms) for as long as I've been in the program.  During the 1980s, we had lots of cadets.  Maybe not as many as in the 1950s (I've always wanted to see that membership trend versus major historical events. Talk about a sociologist's wet dream!), but we had plenty of 16-20 year old cadets who had ZERO issue with us 12-15 year old cadets.  We were the airmen, they were the senior NCOs and cadet officers.  Period.

<snip>
But this is exactly what the Cadet program tries to do. A sixteen year old who joins might have a twelve year old as a drill instructor. Twelve-year olds sit in classes that bewilder them while seventeen-year olds sit in the same class and are bored. The Cadets go on a bivouac. The 12 year olds can't keep up and the 17 year olds are held back.

See above.  Your older cadets *should* be age-appropriate for cadet leadership, and your younger cadets should be in the "Follower" achievements.  My unit attempts to recruit predominately at middle schools and places where the younger teen set are, versus a high school. If you haven't hooked 'em by 14, chances are you're not, or better yet: you shouldn't.  (its hard to remind the older cadets who are now in 9th grade, high school, that they need to not recruit at their school but rather go back to their old middle school and recruit...)

Our last open house netted us 14 potential cadets and 2 potential officers. (Inprocessing is this week, lets see how much melt we have and how many we really get)  All the cadets are 12-13.  Our last open house brought us a cadet who is 16, about to turn 17.  She was under NO illusion about what she was getting into (her brother is a cadet, too).  I pinned SrA on her last week, and at the same time she asked me for a letter of recommendation for college.  Oops.  But she's out there participating like everybody else and understands that she's late in the game and may not make it to her Mitchell before she goes off to college.  I have heard or seen nothing that indicates that she's unhappy that some 15 year old C/2Lt was her flight commander, and in fact, she does well on achievement testing (could that be indicative of the subject material being beneath her? Maybe.) and has moved up smoothly in the cadet program. (she's been in about 7 months, and she's a C/SrA.. that's about right..)

YMMV, as always.  But this "junior cadet" program is not, even as some national board members have mistakenly suggested, intended to explore the military aspects of the program, but rather to serve as an "AE lead in" to CAP for youth.  I don't think its a bad idea, as long as it stays that way.

My guess is, it won't. Some well-intending but completely clueless local CAP commander someplace will try to put uniforms and formations into this thing and it will all go to hell...

[SJFedor]

I would like to know who is behind this unbelievably stupid and inappropriate program.

Col Applebaum, former PAWG/CC.

I'd love to see the curiculum and see how they're making this program work for elementary school age kids. When I was a 7 year old, I didn't even have the discipline to clean my toys up, yet they believe they're going to bring them into a quasi-military style program?

[jimmydeanno]

I think you should read the article about it and perhaps view some of the pictures from the January edition of the Volunteer.  They aren't trying to produce drill team cadets...

In the inner city of Philadelphia, where gangs are commonplace and student discipline in school is a major challenge, one school is beating the odds with the help of Civil Air Patrol.

Creighton School has partnered with the Pennsylvania Wing to pilot a kindergarten through fifth grade pre-cadet school program. The brainchild of principal Capt. Katherine McKeller-Carter, the program started three years ago with 15 cadets. It now includes students in grades 6, 7 and 8, and this year was extended to the younger students in K-5.

The program has become so popular that parents are moving into the area so their children can attend Creighton and participate, said Capt. Katherine Smith, deputy squadron commander and a teacher in the program. "We teach character, leadership and responsibility. The students love the program. We hold them to very high standards to do what they've not been challenged to do in the past," she said. A visitor to the CAP classrooms would easily notice there is something different about these Creighton students. When the principal is about to enter a classroom, the children in the younger grades are brought to attention by their student leader with a sharp "Captain on deck!" The pre-cadets stand up straight and tall in their CAP attire as they salute the principal (their "captain"). In class, K-5 students learn the four tenets of the CAP program: character, leadership, aerospace and fitness, which are fully integrated into the curriculum. They wear either a CAP pre-cadet crew shirt or a physical training sweat suit. While they do not progress in rank, as do regular cadets, they are nonetheless prepared to enter sixth grade with a strong background knowledge of CAP customs because they are mentored by their CAP counterparts at the middle school level.

With the younger students, aerospace education starts early. One group might be working on building a model of the Hubble satellite, while another works on a model airport or paper airplanes. "I'll ask them to draw me an airplane, to use their imagination," said Capt. Reginald McDonald, Pennsylvania's middle school initiative coordinator and adviser to the Pennsylvania Wing's CAP School Program. "I tell them, 'Dare to dream, because if you stop dreaming, progress stops.' " In grades 6, 7 and 8, the older students start their day with a morning inspection, and then lead the school and the local community in the raising of the flag and Pledge of Allegiance. They also take responsibility for teaching and working closely with the pre-cadets, teaching them cadences, and keeping them in line as they go to the school lunchroom and playground. "Each of the younger pre-cadets has an Air Force or Army cadence they sing," said McDonald. "I taught it to the older cadets, and they taught the kids. I've told them what they do in uniform is going to affect what that little child sees and does." The discipline and responsibility built into the program is working. CAP students are less likely to get into
fights, they are more respectful of each other and more responsible at home. "When they see their friends getting ready to get into a fight or conflict, they will stop them," he said, "and they are more willing to tell us what's going on. There is a general air about them; they take constructive criticism, and they are able to be corrected." It wasn't that way just three years ago. When the CAP program started, principal McKeller-Carter remembers the first students who participated took ribbing from their classmates. "The other kids would tease those in CAP about their uniforms," she said. Not any more. The next year, more cadets were brought into the program until it was taken into sixth, seventh and eighth grades. Then last year, the K-5 students joined in to make it a CAP Academy. "Now everyone wants to be a part of it," she said. "It's that elitism they feel. The teachers have all joined CAP as senior members and even parents have joined.

"The students have to keep their grades up and their attendance up. We keep telling them they are the only pilot program like this in the nation. Failure is not an option," she said. The "orderly, organized climate" of Creighton has caught the eye of higher-ups in the school system. Wendy Shapiro, regional superintendent for the North Region of Philadelphia schools, said the program's success has convinced officials to have CAP programs in at least two other schools. "And we are looking to move it into one of our high schools," she said. The educators are "as excited as the cadets and junior cadets," said Pennsylvania Wing Commander Col. Al Applebaum. "The K-5 pilot program will allow CAP to reach more young people and engage them in positive, patriotic programs that will provide
enrichment. Character development, leadership training and aviation: This combination cannot be beaten."

Parents like the changes they are seeing in their children who are involved. Brenda Tejire's children, ages 7 and 11, "are more responsible, they're energetic about projects, and it keeps them very interested," she said. "They get home, their homework gets done. I can't even explain it." Nubia Santiago's daughter, Gloria, is a seventh grader who was shy and insecure before becoming part of the CAP program. Now she's developing leadership skills that have helped her in many ways. "I've learned discipline. I've flown in a plane. I've had a lot of opportunities you wouldn't normally have if you weren't in CAP," said Gloria. "If you were in a regular class, it would be crazy and hectic, but now everyone's on point and it's neat and everyone is cooperating together. Everyone knows what they're supposed to do and they do it." Gloria, 12, has some older friends who are gang members, but she encourages them to leave that lifestyle. "I tell them: 'CAP will help you in the future; with gangs you will end up in jail. A CAP scholarship will get you through college. Life will be better. Gangs may seem cooler, but you're wasting your life.' " If principal McKeller-Carter had her way, her entire school of 900 students would be involved in CAP. "Our kids are learning things they've never learned before. I
wish you could see their faces when they come back from their orientation flights. That's something I could have never offered them," she said. She's also taken students camping at Fort Indiantown Gap, and most have never been camping before. On days off, instead of taking a vacation, students want to do CAP activities and physical training at the nearby naval base. "You can't pay for that kind of responsibility from a child," she said.

It doesn't seem like they're having too many problems maintaining discipline...didn't you have to stand in single file lines in elementary school?  They are teaching them simple concepts like respect, dignity, patriotism, etc using AE and other basic principles found in cadet life.

I say go for it! Great Work!

[dogboy]

PAWG just released it prior-year Financial.  (after a lawyer got involved).  Anyone that wants a copy please call the Wing Administrator there. 

They got $550,000 from the state, another $120,000 from donations and a few grants and the Philly school system is giving into the school program (slightly).  They also receive some of the most NHQ provided funds.

With that kind of money, there had to be a serious evaluation of the program at the end of the first year. Any idea where it can be found? I searched the PA Wing web page but found nothing.

I would like to see what outcomes there were from this $700,000.

I'm still waiting for someone to point me to an evaluation of this program. I would like to see if there are actually measurable outcomes from this $700,000 of our money.

[PA Guy]

PAWG just released it prior-year Financial.  (after a lawyer got involved).  Anyone that wants a copy please call the Wing Administrator there. 

They got $550,000 from the state, another $120,000 from donations and a few grants and the Philly school system is giving into the school program (slightly).  They also receive some of the most NHQ provided funds.

With that kind of money, there had to be a serious evaluation of the program at the end of the first year. Any idea where it can be found? I searched the PA Wing web page but found nothing.

I would like to see what outcomes there were from this $700,000.

I'm still waiting for someone to point me to an evaluation of this program. I would like to see if there are actually measurable outcomes from this $700,000 of our money.

Using the quoted figures it looks like the school got 550,000 from the state of PA and another 120,000 in donations for a total of 670,000.  Some additional funds came from grants so it looks like CAPs contribution would be less than 30,000.  If you called NHQ/AE they would probably tell you.  A previous post also said a financial report was available from the PAWG administrator, give them a call.   

[dogboy]

I'm still waiting for someone to point me to an evaluation of this program. I would like to see if there are actually measurable outcomes from this $700,000 of our money.

Using the quoted figures it looks like the school got 550,000 from the state of PA and another 120,000 in donations for a total of 670,000.  Some additional funds came from grants so it looks like CAPs contribution would be less than 30,000.  If you called NHQ/AE they would probably tell you.  A previous post also said a financial report was available from the PAWG administrator, give them a call.   

And where did the State of Pennsylvania get $555,000 to spend on this? That's our money too, not just the $30,000 from CAP.

If this program was such a success in Philadelphia that it's being expanded to twenty other schools, why isn't there an evaluation report of it available?

[Grumpy]

Not only that, but why aren't they making more noise about it and letting the general public and membership know about it?

[JayT]

I'm having some trouble with the image of a bunch of five year olds saluting........that doesn't seem right.

[star1151]

I'm having some trouble with the image of a bunch of five year olds saluting........that doesn't seem right.

Looks like some kind of communist reeducation program.  And yes, I'm serious.