How much equipment is too much?

[jimmydeanno]

With school starting up in the next few weeks, there are numerous articles floating around regarding the weight of school backpacks and their effects on the students physical health [Google "Backpack Safety"]

It got me thinking about our ground team personnel and their packs.  Going through the training materials, I noticed that we don't have any recommendations or guidance on what an average pack weighs, or the weight we should or shouldn't exceed is (I know it depends on your build, strength, etc). 

Do you think that the weight of our GT 24/72 hour packs is significant enough to be taken into consideration as a safety concern?  I found a backpack weight calculator and it noted that for someone my weight, I shouldn't exceed 24 pounds for a pack.  My 24 hour pack weighs right around 12 pounds.

I specifically took the weight of the pack into consideration because I have pre-existing back injuries, but how often do we see cadets showing up for SAREXs loaded to the hilt with 50/60 pound packs on?

Are there any HSOs out there that have any better guidance on what we should/could look at for guidance about this subject.  Back injuries, etc while in the field only serve to hinder our own teams and require our own rescuers to be rescued.

Thoughts?

[Flying Pig]

Pack light, freeze at night.  Motto of the infantryman

[Eclipse]

Pack light, freeze at night.  Motto of the infantryman

Pack heavy, drive a Chevy - motto of CAP.

[jimmydeanno]

As a brief follow up, this article came up on the local news source today: http://www.wmur.com/backtoschool/2332881/detail.html

Simmons College professor Shelly Goodgold found that 55 percent of fifth- through eighth-grade students she surveyed carry backpacks weighing more than 15 percent of their body weight. One-third of those students said they've suffered back pain.
Girls were more likely to complain of back pain than boys, likely because their smaller frames are still required to carry the same heavy books as boys but are lesser able to compensate for the heavy load. The problems typically only grow worse in high school as more weight is added to the load.

So if we apply this to our GT packs, it sounds like a 15% of your weight standard is used as the marker of what the max load should be.

[Duke Dillio]

I tend to go with the recommendations of the fire guys.  Max weight of all gear should be 65 pounds.  Plus or minus 5 pounds is generally okay for me but that is probably the absolute max.  This might be a little much for a 13 year old cadet so I generally remove items from the list to reduce their weight.

[Flying Pig]

Yeah, but fire fighters arent humping 65 lbs for 2 days.  I dont think there is any formula you can use.  Its all about the mule carrying it.  As an Infantryman, I saw guys who were built like tanks who couldnt walk 5 miles without whining and crying and could hardly carry their own gear.  Then I had skinny guys who could carry their pack, a .50 cal barrel and someone else's pack so they could take a break.
Most of what I see CAPers carrying are what I would consider luxury items.

[Trung Si Ma]

Pretty good read on this at http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/1985/IDC.htm

[Thom]

Pretty good read on this at http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/1985/IDC.htm

Very good read.  Thanks for that link!

From that article, the most valid points here are this:

Optimum Infantry Load  =  30% of Body Weight
MAX Infantry Load  =  45% of Body Weight

If CAP is getting anywhere NEAR those numbers, we have issues.  I can tick off a list of reasons we need to scale back from those numbers, starting with: Our average members are not buff, trim, fighting Infantrymen!!

But, seriously, even our 72 Hour Gear shouldn't need to push past 30% body weight on anyone who breaks 100 pounds.  (I'll leave the issues for those 70 pound cadets for someone else to figure.)

My personal 24 Hour Gear fits in my BDU Cargo Pockets and my SAR Vest.  My load sits right at 16 pounds, and closer to 10 if you exclude the (incontrovertible) weight of water carried.  (And, yes, that is EVERYTHING on the list for a Trainee.)  I'm excluding the BDU uniform itself, ID Card, Watch, and Comb since I'd be carrying those even at Mission Base.

I did spend some money on things like my Commercial Poncho (less than half the weight of the GI...) and my Sil-Nylon Tarp (wow, light...wow, expensive...) but most of my gear is pretty run of the mill.  Stripped MREs for food, standard Medical gear, etc.  And, yes, my gear is fairly comprehensive.  e.g. My Medical Kit is WAY beyond the requirements.

So, using my 16 pounds as a starting point, using the OPs 15% body weight as a guideline, which I think is reasonable, we see that anyone weighing Over 102 Pounds would be able to carry a 16 pound load without violating the 15% rule.  Again, I'll leave the issues of 70 pound cadets for someone else to figure out.

I think the OP has a very valid point, but it isn't just the excess weight, it is the choice of Gear we are carrying.  Some folks are carrying GI Surplus because it is cheap, but they are killing themselves hauling the extra weight versus a still inexpensive (but admittedly more than the Surplus item...) commercial replacement item.  Some are just hauling everything they have in their house with them for an overnight search!!

In the RM this is where experienced NCOs would be whipping soldiers into shape, and shaming them into not carrying unnecessary frippery.  But, since we mostly lack those...

Thom Hamilton

[Duke Dillio]

Yeah, but fire fighters arent humping 65 lbs for 2 days.  I dont think there is any formula you can use.  Its all about the mule carrying it.  As an Infantryman, I saw guys who were built like tanks who couldnt walk 5 miles without whining and crying and could hardly carry their own gear.  Then I had skinny guys who could carry their pack, a .50 cal barrel and someone else's pack so they could take a break.
Most of what I see CAPers carrying are what I would consider luxury items.

I was going with the wildland firefighter standards.  I know that when I was in the Army, my average carry was quite a bit more than 65 pounds since I had a radio, extra batteries, binos, maps, pens, etc. etc.  I totally agree with the luxury items being carried.  I always tell my teams to carry only what they need but I always see excess junk during my PMI's....

[JC004]

I generally just ask:
1. Do I need this crap?
2. Can I carry this crap?
3. If not, can my minions carry it?

[lordmonar]

This opens up a particular argument I have about 72 hour gear.

First....there is no real need for any CAP ground team to hump their 72 hour gear farther then the back of the Van to where you are setting up your tent at the mission base or stageing area.

The longest anyone should be in the field is 12 hours before they are releived.  We carry 24 hour gear just in case we get stuck out in the field due to weather, van bread down or some unforseen safety issue that makes it safer to stay the night instead of heading home.

I don't carry my 72 hour gear in a pack....I have a large roll around bag for easy transport to the billeting area.  My 24 hour gear has a pack large enough to carrry extra items (tent/sleeping bag/extra cloths/food) if the weather conditions warrent more then the basic load out.  But I have no intentiion to hump my 72 hour gear more then 100 yards!

[Eclipse]

+1

We don't operate in a "march in and stay until done mode" anymore (assuming we ever did), and neither do the majority of the agencies we support.

Seriously, how many of our members can even commit to 3 days of operations, let alone survival-level camping for that long?

[JC004]

That is an important issue that should probably be addressed at the national level.

[Duke Dillio]

I think this might depend on where you are at.  I do think that we need to revise the ground team kits.  I personally think that they should be established at the wing level with national guidance.  There are places where a ground team might be out for more than 12 hours (think Alaska or Colorado) but in other places, you can run van ops.  My other opinion is that we need to get away from vans carrying GT's.  These are things that we should seriously consider.  The real obstacle is twofold though:  politics and money.  This is just my opinion, not that it means much...

[RADIOMAN015]

With school starting up in the next few weeks, there are numerous articles floating around regarding the weight of school backpacks and their effects on the students physical health [Google "Backpack Safety"]

It got me thinking about our ground team personnel and their packs.  Going through the training materials, I noticed that we don't have any recommendations or guidance on what an average pack weighs, or the weight we should or shouldn't exceed is (I know it depends on your build, strength, etc). 

Do you think that the weight of our GT 24/72 hour packs is significant enough to be taken into consideration as a safety concern?

As others have stated not sure we would ever need the 72 hour pack anyways.  Perhaps taking the 24 hour packs & leaving it in the van for "just in case" situations. 

I've never seen any safety report published yet on cadet back injuries due to pack weight.  HOWEVER, I'm going to bring this up to our Safety & ES Officers to take a look at because what you state does make sense!

Always best to stay out of the CAP safety spotlight with an injury, because surely "the 'reactive' blame game" will start

RM

[Airrace]

I only have a 24 hour pack. I have a military dufle bag that has all the overnight supplies in it. On all the long missions that I have been on my sleepping supplies have always been off loaded from the van to the sleeping area. Usually this is only a few 100 feet away, so why would you want to carry all of your sleeping supplies in one pack!

I could understand having some more cold weather gear if you lived in Alaska or some place were it gets really cold be here in California we just don't need to carry all that stuff.

[SarDragon]

The last time I checked, there are areas of California that get as low as or below freezing at night in the winter time. Even all the way down here in San Diego County.