Georgia Wing Banking

[ADCAPer]

Now that the wing is "tracking" the money (i.e. in control of it), what is to PREVENT them from diverting the money X Sqdn raised for their initiatives to support other wing "priorities" (as determined by the wing)

A centralized accounting system makes sense... one that guarantees visibility of all funds. A system that removes sqdn control of their checkbook does not, and is a big cause for concern.

I absolutely agree.  I keep hearing that none of this matters, because CAP as a corporation actually owns everything, including the cash, that is acquired by the local squadrons. I don't have a problem with that. I also don't think this program will have any affect the people who make an infrequent or one time donation, but I believe that this program will effectively end any recurring financial support that a squadron may be receiving.

I personally wouldn't care what anyone told me verbally, if I was going to donate money (especially if it was a large sum of money) to support a local organization, and then found out that someone outside that local community was going to control how it was being used, my money would immediately go somewhere else.

CAP is a national organization, but it's lifeblood is in the local communities.

[Eclipse]

Nothing prevents by reg, nor does anythng prevent the Wing CC TODAY from ordering you to turn over all funds.

[Eclipse]

In CO, the plan is to divide it proportionally, based on how much money each unit has in the account. How everyone else does/will do it is a good question.

Also, every unit has web access to their account to get statements whenever they want.

I'd be curious to know how this work in practice, since the "account" is supposed to a sub-account in quicken, not a physical bank account.

[ADCAPer]

Nothing prevents by reg, nor does anythng prevent the Wing CC TODAY from ordering you to turn over all funds.

Thats why I'm hoping this gets worked out before to long.  At this point, I'm sorry, but I would have to respectfully disagree with you.

If I was ordered to turn over my squadron funds I would have to see the written guidance that would require it. (This sort of ties back to my last post, if you have someone contributing to you on a recurring basis who discovers that you have surrendered control of those funds, I don't believe you can count on any further donations. If you can at least prove that you didn't have a choice (such as through a legal regulation) then you might possibly have some other options left open for the future.)

Anyway, from what I can tell, there is no legal guidance out there at this time, if there was then you can bet that by now it would be on the front page of the national site.

Also, CAPR 173-1 (which appears to have been implemented in conflict with the procedures in CAPR 5-1) does not require anyone to participate in the WBP. And in my opinion, verbal orders and e-mail are not an acceptable way to direct someone to violate this many regulations when dealing with money. If I'm going to be placed in this position, then someone in authority is going to put their name on paper.

Finally, the Cap Constitution states that all funds "... shall be administered and accounted for as prescribed in the Bylaws and regulations." I can find no exceptions which call for publishing an incomplete regulation to allow for a transition, or for allowing a Wing Commander to order the surrender of funds by dismissing the regulations which are required under the Constitution.

I look at it like this. What would you think If your employer came to you and said that they were no longer going to give you your paycheck. You just needed to submit your request to them anytime you wanted to purchase something and they would cut you a check on the next check day. Oh yeah, we'll take care of your utility payments, car payment, house payment, etc., just make sure that you track everything and let us know if something is late or doesn't get paid, because we're doing this for all our employees. Would you go for it?

[Eclipse]

All funds and property of any unit are corporate funds, redeployable, etc., at any time by Wing, Region or NHQ.  This would include money, radios, and property.

I will agree, however, that this is falling into the "regs vs. orders vs. were all one happy family" area, well beyond my paygrade.

It would be interesting to see would would happen if a unit said "no" - understanding that the Unit's CC, and the charter itself could be yanked at the Wing CC's whim.

[TankerT]

Another wrinkle - INTEREST.

Why does Wing get to keep my interest?  Many units, including mine, have large sums of money in CDs - we've been told no one will be forced to close a CD early, but once they mature, the money goes to Wing.

How, on earth, would you ever figure out how to divide the interest?  And don't say "equally" among units - I cycle about $20k a year, while some don't even have an FM.

Wing gets to keep the interest?  I don't know about that for sure.  (Actually, my wing is giving each unit it's fair share.)

The program doesn't require you to close your CDs early.  (At least I'm pretty sure of that... but not 100%... I'll go check... but...If your wing is requiring that... I'd question it.)  Our wing required that our Wing CC and our Wing FO be added to the signature cards for existing CDs.  At the end of their life, they will be turned over to Wing... to manage like they do the rest of our funds.  But, the money isn't Wing's money.  It still belongs to the unit.  (I think they get to be reinvested into additional CDs too.)

How do we determine who gets what interest?

Math my friend.  Math

Basically (the way we are doing it) is doing some math to determine what percentage of the whole account you are.  (I. E.... if the account total is $100,000 and your sub-account is $10,000 your share of the interest would be 10% of whatever is paid out.)

Does that make sense?  (It made sense in my head while we were typing it.)

[TankerT]

Also, CAPR 173-1 (which appears to have been implemented in conflict with the procedures in CAPR 5-1) does not require anyone to participate in the WBP. And in my opinion, verbal orders and e-mail are not an acceptable way to direct someone to violate this many regulations when dealing with money. If I'm going to be placed in this position, then someone in authority is going to put their name on paper.

Actually, it is on paper.  Being on a Wing Finance Committee, I have seen it.  There was a letter signed by the National Commander providing Region CCs orders to implement this and select one Wing to start... etc...

Many Wings that were selected were concerned that the directive had been e-mail only.  As such, a signed letter was issued some time ago.  (It was dated sometime in October actually... if I recall correctly...)

[JohnKachenmeister]

Colorado has implemented it already. So far, it seems to be working well. The wing administrator writes the checks and the authorized signers come in twice a week to sign. The average turn around is about a week, including mailing time. The wing administrator is not one of the signers.

OK, If I understand it correctly:

1.  Unit identifies an expense that must be funded.

2.  Unit submits a voucher with 2 authorized signatures to wing?

3.  Wing writes check, but doesn't sign it.

4.  Wing sends check to unit for signing, and distribution?

[ADCAPer]

It would be interesting to see would would happen if a unit said "no" - understanding that the Unit's CC, and the charter itself could be yanked at the Wing CC's whim.

Well, I hadn't thought about it actually getting to the point of running people off, but it should prove to be interesting if it happens.

From what I see, according to CAPR 20-3, a Wing Commander is authorized to deactivate units for good cause, but he has to state the reason for cause on the deactivation form. I assume the reason for deactivating would have to be for the members failing to follow the verbal order of the Commander. I'm not sure how far the charter issue would go, the PR nightmare that would surely follow something like this would make it a hollow victory for everyone. I'd like to think at this point that there are at least a few people at the national level with the good sense not to let this issue get to this point.

I guess this would mean that the Group CC or Wing CC would have to start suspending members.  CAPR 35-3 lists a variety of reasons that a member can be terminated for, I guess the most logical reason would be for failure to obey rules regulations, and orders of higher authorities. This would also be a wonderful PR move. What are people, members and the public alike, going to think when someone is suspended, and the reason cited is for disobeying an order, even though the order can't be legal since it violates the existing regulations and the CAP Constitution?

Since there's nothing that requires a unit to participate in the WBP, other than the order of the Wing CC of course, this should really open up a hornets nest. CAP would, in effect, be terminating a member for doing exactly what they are supposed to, which is to follow the regulations.

Actually, it is on paper.  Being on a Wing Finance Committee, I have seen it.  There was a letter signed by the National Commander providing Region CCs orders to implement this and select one Wing to start... etc...

Then why can't (or won't) anyone produce it and put a stop to all the questions and rumors? Better yet, 173-1 was being rewritten at that same time, why didn;t someone at national include a simple one liner, like "All CAP squadrons will participate in the Wing Banker Program." That would have been simple, direct, straight to the point, and would have settled everything all at once.

OK, If I understand it correctly:

1.  Unit identifies an expense that must be funded.

2.  Unit submits a voucher with 2 authorized signatures to wing?

3.  Wing writes check, but doesn't sign it.

4.  Wing sends check to unit for signing, and distribution?

This is not the example I have heard of, or seen posted by anyone here. As I understand it the WBP requires you to surrender control of your funds. You submit a check request to the Wing, who then hopefully cuts your check. But the local squadrons do not retain check writing authority.

[TankerT]

Colorado has implemented it already. So far, it seems to be working well. The wing administrator writes the checks and the authorized signers come in twice a week to sign. The average turn around is about a week, including mailing time. The wing administrator is not one of the signers.

OK, If I understand it correctly:

1.  Unit identifies an expense that must be funded.

2.  Unit submits a voucher with 2 authorized signatures to wing?

3.  Wing writes check, but doesn't sign it.

4.  Wing sends check to unit for signing, and distribution?

I can't say how it works in Colorado, but your understanding isn't how it is done in my wing.

1- Correct

2- Possibly no.  (This is more dependant on how your voucher system is set up.)  If it is under a certain amount, it can be submitted by any member that has already been designated by the Finance Committee as an authorized submitter.  No more than 1 signature is required.  However, if the dollar amount is over $250 (per regs) it must be accompanied by a Finance Committee authorization.  (This would be required locally anyway before cutting a check over that amount already, so it's not something new.)  If your voucher system requires two signatures, then you could be correct.

3- No.  Wing cuts the check.  Then some Wing Staff member(s) (or other authorized member(s)) sign it.  (The Wing Administrator can't sign checks, as it is prohibited by regs.)

4- No.  The Wing mails the check to wherever you asked.

[TankerT]

Then why can't (or won't) anyone produce it and put a stop to all the questions and rumors? Better yet, 173-1 was being rewritten at that same time, why didn;t someone at national include a simple one liner, like "All CAP squadrons will participate in the Wing Banker Program." That would have been simple, direct, straight to the point, and would have settled everything all at once.

I haven't had that problem. Have you asked your Wing CC for a copy? (Through channels of course.)  Complaining on the Internet is one thing.  Making a formal request (in a polite and professional manner) is another.

I actually have a copy right in front of me.  It is dated 21 September 2006.  It was a memo addressed to all Region and Wing CCs. 

I am fairly critical of making sure things toe the line as far as regs go.  Reading this, I can say that it does satisfy my needs as far as meeting the required approval process.  It also mentions that the program is approved by the NEC and NB, and that regulations would be updated over time.

[Eclipse]

Another wrinkle - INTEREST.

Why does Wing get to keep my interest?  Many units, including mine, have large sums of money in CDs - we've been told no one will be forced to close a CD early, but once they mature, the money goes to Wing.

How, on earth, would you ever figure out how to divide the interest?  And don't say "equally" among units - I cycle about $20k a year, while some don't even have an FM.

Wing gets to keep the interest?  I don't know about that for sure.  (Actually, my wing is giving each unit it's fair share.)

The program doesn't require you to close your CDs early.  (At least I'm pretty sure of that... but not 100%... I'll go check... but...If your wing is requiring that... I'd question it.)  Our wing required that our Wing CC and our Wing FO be added to the signature cards for existing CDs.  At the end of their life, they will be turned over to Wing... to manage like they do the rest of our funds.  But, the money isn't Wing's money.  It still belongs to the unit.  (I think they get to be reinvested into additional CDs too.)

How do we determine who gets what interest?

Math my friend.  Math

Basically (the way we are doing it) is doing some math to determine what percentage of the whole account you are.  (I. E.... if the account total is $100,000 and your sub-account is $10,000 your share of the interest would be 10% of whatever is paid out.)

Does that make sense?  (It made sense in my head while we were typing it.)

It makes sense on paper from a simple interest standpoint, but not when you get into the compexities about how interest is calculated.

Depending on the date they decide to make the calc, my account may have $500, or it may have $10,000, at least until things change - depends on whether a major event is over yet.

The week before we're flush, the week after, broke. 

Let's just agree its add complexity, but considering that people quit the program or stamp their feet about much smaller issues, can we also agree its a big PITA?

[Eclipse]

Also, I think we touched on this earlier, but if you are going to solicit donations, especially large ones, and then cut off your own nose by in any way insinuating someone else has control of the money, you deserve to be
broke.

Simply tell donors the money will be used for the good of the squadron, with the consent of the appointed local finance committee - the rest is administrivia that willjust cause you issues.

I know this is a knee-jerk reaction by some people who will "get back at wing for "stealing" my money, etc..." but in the end its self-defeating.

As would trying to spend yourself into bankruptcy before the transfer.

We're adults, wrok the program, with whatever local nuances occur, and
deal with speed bumps >IF< they happen.

[TankerT]

It makes sense on paper from a simple interest standpoint, but not when you get into the compexities about how interest is calculated.

Depending on the date they decide to make the calc, my account may have $500, or it may have $10,000, at least until things change - depends on whether a major event is over yet.

The week before we're flush, the week after, broke. 

Let's just agree its add complexity, but considering that people quit the program or stamp their feet about much smaller issues, can we also agree its a big PITA?

We have several high speed financial folks that figured out exactly how to do it that was considered a good accounting way to do it.  (Not my cup of tea.  I may have a Master's in Business, but Accounting was my weak subject... but... in the end... it does break down to the overall number that the interest is calculated on... and what you have/had in your account.)

It does add complexity, but I think that it adds it up at Wing.  I think the biggest PITA for units is learning the system once it is in place.  After that, it's less work and hassles at the lower units.  (I seriously believe that.  And, trust me... nobody would have believed that I would be saying that four months ago.)

I'm probably not convincing many people.  I heard lots of great things about it in VA before we got it, and I was a naysayer.  Now, I'm pretty happy with the program, and it's still getting bugs worked out.  I guess the way to put it is I'm a convert.

[TankerT]

We're adults, wrok the program, with whatever local nuances occur, and
deal with speed bumps >IF< they happen.

Actually, some of the "what if" questions about the program and possible speed bumps coming from some units were about as feasible as Katie Holmes dating me next week.  Possible?  Probably.  Going to happen?  I seriously doubt it.

Yes, like everything, it has it's issues.  But, try it.  You might like it. 

[ELTHunter]

Yes, only 1 bank account but a certain amount of it will belong to each squadron.  Its really no big deal to track things that way. 

So who gets the interest earned from a squadron's balance....let me guess....the Wing?

[TankerT]

So who gets the interest earned from a squadron's balance....let me guess....the Wing?

As indicated above... my wing is spreading the interest to each unit.

My wing is being very careful with this.  To ensure complete separation of Wing funds from Unit funds, no Wing funds may be kept in the Squadron Account.  In fact, our Wing Account is not even  at the same bank as the subordinate unit account.

[ELTHunter]

We have several high speed financial folks that figured out exactly how to do it that was considered a good accounting way to do it. 

As a business manager at my company, it's been my experience that whenever lawyers or accountants get involved, nothing is made easier for the ones who are conducting operations.

[TankerT]

As a business manager at my company, it's been my experience that whenever lawyers or accountants get involved, nothing is made easier for the ones who are conducting operations.

Unless... you want them to be using the program.  Then, it becomes pretty simple. 

Key people in designing our Wing's implementation are actually from Squadrons that will use the system.  As such, it was designed with ease of use for the unit in mind.  (And, I think they did a great job.)

[ADCAPer]

Also, I think we touched on this earlier, but if you are going to solicit donations, especially large ones, and then cut off your own nose by in any way insinuating someone else has control of the money, you deserve to be
broke.

Simply tell donors the money will be used for the good of the squadron, with the consent of the appointed local finance committee - the rest is administrivia that willjust cause you issues.

Well, I guess that's an option, and in some cases it could possibly be justified, say if you're washing cars or selling donuts, and you advertise it as supporting the CAP.

However, If you approach an individual, a company, a government entity, etc., and request money from them, ethically you would have no option but to:

1) advise them that CAP as a corporation actually owns everything and that ultimately these funds will be the property of the corporation (I believe thats straight from a regulation) and...

2) that even though you are soliciting the money locally, to support either your local squadron or local personnel, that the money will actually be transferred to the Wing Banker, and...

3) that locally you will not be able to physically control, account for the disbursement of, or absoloutly guarantee that you will be able to obligate the funds, because you will have to request them from the Wing Banker, and...

4) they need to be advised that there is the possibility that those funds could, even if it's inadvertantly, be used for something that is not affiliated with the support of either your local squadron or personnel.

I don't believe that there's any need to insinuate anything. Under the WBP the squadrons will not control their funds, they will simply have the ability to request them.

If someone is going to donate funds to you, you have an obligation to enure that they understand how they could be used. Unless there is a National Regulation that spells out what is legitimate, the Wings are going to be free to revise their "Guides" at any point to say whatever they need them to, and unlike a regulation, there won't be a need for any of those pesky reviewing procedures.