Vanguard's "Blue Utility Coverall"

[DG]

I post this in the Aviation and Flying Activities section because I am soliciting comments from our pilots and observers.

Vanguard has a "Blue Utility Coverall" listed in their CAP Uniforms section under "Flight Suits and Utility Uniforms."

http://www.vanguardmil.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=6_440_453

It is only $44.00.

They deauthorized my light blue nomex CAP-distinctive flight suits last year.  I had two of them.  They were not cheap when I bought them. 

I would get the new navy blue nomex CAP-distinctive flight suit.  But it is $258.50!  And then they may just deauthorize that one.

Is the $44.00 "Blue Utility Coverall" authorized?  I don't see it in 39-1.

Does it look and wear like a flight suit?

Does anyone have any experience flying in this "Blue Utility Coverall"?

[cnitas]

It looks just like a flight suit, but it is not nomex. 
I have never worn one, but a squadron member wears it exclusivly and likes it.

Seems like it would be cooler than nomex, but no fire protection...if you are concerned about such things.

[Irishrenegade]

Noone in my Squadron wears the blue ones...only the sage green ones. agree with the above comment about the fire issue...I guess its your call on that one.

oh yea and I did not see it in the manual either...

[davedove]

From CAPM 39-1, Chapter 4:

d. Utility Uniform: The CAP utility uniform is an optional uniform that may be worn by both cadets
and senior members for flying activities or any time the field uniform would be worn.

Also Figure 4-5 and Table 4-6.

It is configured just like a flight suit, but is not nomex.

[DG]

From CAPM 39-1, Chapter 4:

d. Utility Uniform: The CAP utility uniform is an optional uniform that may be worn by both cadets
and senior members for flying activities or any time the field uniform would be worn.

Also Figure 4-5 and Table 4-6.

It is configured just like a flight suit, but is not nomex.

Thank you for this guidance.

Do you have to wear plastic encased rank on the shoulders?

I prefer not to.   One of several reasons I prefer not to wear the AF-style flight suit.

[SilverEagle2]

Do you have to wear plastic encased rank on the shoulders?

No. The bright on dark blue cloth is the rank to wear with these. (which is almost enough to get me to ditch my AF Green, looks nicer)

[Thom]

Do you have to wear plastic encased rank on the shoulders?

No. The bright on dark blue cloth is the rank to wear with these. (which is almost enough to get me to ditch my AF Green, looks nicer)

Actually, unless I missed an ICL (queue grumbling...) you may wear either the plastic-encased grade OR the white on blue cloth grade with the Utility Uniform.

I'm not sure why you would wear the plastic-encased, unless you happened to already own it.  The cloth does look better.

We have a few folks who wear them for flying duties, they wear much like a flightsuit, and they are no more or less fire resistant than a Polo and Slacks, or the various Aviator shirt outfits.

Thom

[SilverEagle2]

He asked if he had to. The answer is no.

[DG]

Do you have to wear plastic encased rank on the shoulders?

No. The bright on dark blue cloth is the rank to wear with these. (which is almost enough to get me to ditch my AF Green, looks nicer)

I would like to do that.

But Note 1 states otherwise.




78 CAPM 39-1 23 MARCH 2005
NOTES:
1. Grade Insignia: Senior members will wear plastic encased grade insignia centered on top of each
shoulder with bottom edge of insignia placed 1/2 inch from shoulder seam. General officers will
wear grade centered on the shoulder. Cadets do not wear grade insignia of any type.
2. Leather Name Patch: Patch will be centered on left breast above pocket. Will include name, grade,
and aeronautical rating. Cloth name patch is not authorized.
3. CAP Command Patch: A cloth CAP Command Patch will be worn on right breast directly opposite
the leather name patch.
4. Optional Breast Patch: Embroidered Emergency Services patch may be worn on the right breast
pocket or corresponding position.
5. Optional Shoulder Patch: Worn centered 1/2 inch below shoulder seam on right sleeve. Member
may choose one of the authorized patches for the right shoulder (see Chapter 6), may be wing,
region or National shoulder patch.
6. Shoulder Patch: A cloth American Flag emblem with gold border, 2" x 3 1/2", on left shoulder, 1/2
inch below the shoulder seam.
7. White t-shirts and any style plain black shoe or boot may be worn.
8. Headgear is not required but the CAP baseball cap is authorized. Any civilian outergarment may be
worn.
9. Weight and grooming standards do not apply to members wearing this uniform.
10. Military badges and devices are not authorized on this uniform.

Figure 4-5. Men's and Women's CAP Blue Util

[davedove]

From ICL dated 25 Jan 2008:

(4) Embroidered grade insignia on flight suits. Effective 15 March
2006, embroidered grade insignia, as well as the currently authorized plastic encased
insignia, is authorized on the CAP distinctive flight suits. If embroidered grade is worn,
ultramarine blue grade insignia will be worn on the ultramarine blue NOMEX flight suit
and dark blue grade insignia will be worn on the dark blue utility uniform and new
NOMEX flight suit.

[Gunner C]

The dark blue cloth grade insignia was authorized by an ICL (somewhere).  I wear it.

I wear the coveralls.  Here's a couple of things:

1.  The velcro for the name tag is too small and in the wrong place.  Take your old flight suit and measure the distance from the zipper to the edge of the leather name tag velcro, the distance from the top of the zipper to the top of the velcro, and  mark the same distances on the blue coveralls.  Sew on a new piece of velcro
2.  The shoulder seams are too far back on the shoulders.  Sew the grade insignia forward of the seam and not centered on it.
3.  Center the command patch velcro vertically on the name tag velcro and the same distance from the zipper and attach. 

I've found the coveralls pretty comfortable, but there's a couple of problems (see above) with the  way they're set up that make them look odd.  If you make the changes and put the patches where they are on the AF bag, it'll look much better.

[ßτε]

I cannot seem to find in the ICLs an authorization for embroidered grade insignia for the Utility Uniform (only for the CAP flight suit.)

[Thom]

I cannot seem to find in the ICLs an authorization for embroidered grade insignia for the Utility Uniform (only for the CAP flight suit.)

The user 'davedove' above had the proper applicable ICL quote.

Admittedly, it is buried in an entry that starts with Flightsuit, then has a further sentence that includes the Utility Uniform in the authorization of cloth grade.

Not the clearest uniform instruction, even by CAP standards.

Thom

[Strick]

I purchased one from the Hock shop a couple years ago and it was a ROTHCO brand,  Did not fit like a real flight suit and faded pretty fast.  I would recommend the proper brand that is Desinged to mil-spec minus the nomex of course.

[Slim]

I purchased one from the Hock shop a couple years ago and it was a ROTHCO brand,  Did not fit like a real flight suit and faded pretty fast.  I would recommend the proper brand that is Desinged to mil-spec minus the nomex of course.

When they were first authorized, Vanguard was selling the Rothco brand, at around $35.  They then switched to the Tru-Spec brand by Atlanco.  As mentioned, the Rothco is a thinner material, is set up a little differently, fades too quick, etc.  The Tru-Spec version is set up similar to the McPeak style flight suit (no upper leg pockets, ankle zippers to the inside instead of front) without the slim/trim cut and sewn in creases.  The material is also thicker and withstands fading better.  They also raised the price to what is currently on VGs site. 

I bought one a few years ago (after the switch to Tru-Spec), and have been very pleased with it, and it's my most frequently worn uniform.  But, it's getting a little long in the tooth, and I have an encampment job this year where a flight suit style uniform is more appropriate.  So, I decided to order a new/second one.  Checked VGs website, same price, $44.00, and the picture depicts the Tru-Spec version.  What I got when the order showed up was the cheaper Rothco model.  I emailed Beth Maul at VG about my concerns, and explained the difference between the two.  I even told her that both me and my unit commander purchased the Tru-Spec version from them at the same time.  Her response was that they've always sold the Rothco version (IOW, I must be lying and seeing things).

My biggest issue with the Rothco version is the way the main zipper is set up.  The bottom end of the zipper is about two inches higher than the one on the Tru-Spec version (and my green Nomex flight suit I can no longer wear).  So, even though they're the same size, the Rothco version doesn't open far enough for me to get my broad shoulders into it without some very uncomfortable contortions.

Semi-related, has anyone had any luck using Rit dye on Nomex?  I'd really like to get some more mileage out of that flight suit that I wore three times before the regs changed.

[SarDragon]

I've never tried to dye Nomex, but my attempt on a similar nylon garment was an epic fail.

Most synthetic fabrics are made with thread that is colored in the manufacturing process, instead of being dyed like natural materials.

[Thom]

I've never tried to dye Nomex, but my attempt on a similar nylon garment was an epic fail.

Most synthetic fabrics are made with thread that is colored in the manufacturing process, instead of being dyed like natural materials.

Ditto.  I know it can be done, but the results of dyeing a Sage flightsuit to Navy would almost certainly not be something you'd want to wear.

Here's a description of the process, and the required Acid Dye Powder:

http://www.ehow.com/how_5928046_dye-nomex.html

Good Luck!

Thom

[Stonewall]

Does anyone have any experience flying in this "Blue Utility Coverall"?

I bought one.  It looks ridiculous and was a total waste of money.  Think of the cheapest Korean made imitation flight suit sold by one of the vendors at an air show and that's what you've got.  If you have any pride in your appearance and enjoy looking your best as an ambassador of CAP, you will refrain from wearing this monstrosity.

[SarDragon]

I've never tried to dye Nomex, but my attempt on a similar nylon garment was an epic fail.

Most synthetic fabrics are made with thread that is colored in the manufacturing process, instead of being dyed like natural materials.

Ditto.  I know it can be done, but the results of dyeing a Sage flightsuit to Navy would almost certainly not be something you'd want to wear.

Here's a description of the process, and the required Acid Dye Powder:

http://www.ehow.com/how_5928046_dye-nomex.html

Good Luck!

Thom

Interesting process. Very similar to the Rit process, but with a different product. I still would discourage you from attempting it,  because when you try to do a color change, you never know what you're going to end up with. Even just blue to blue can yield a bizarre result.

Save your time, and look on eBay. I got mine there, and paid about $60. It took several tries because I had a fixed spending limit, and got out bid a few times before I was successful.

[Eclipse]

I'm not sure which one Stone bought, but I have one and wear it all the time.  Its cheap enough to order a couple and
keep in your go kit, and a lot cooler (temp) than nomex.

Mine had the same issue with the nametag so I just moved it.  Otherwise its the same cut and look of the blue flight suit.  In anything
but bright sunlight you can't tell the difference.  Its a great, quick and easy uniform.

[Stonewall]

Mine looks like something a mechanic at Jiffy Lube would wear.  But it's the same one you describe, got it from Scamguard.

[Mustang]

I would recommend the proper brand that is Desinged to mil-spec minus the nomex of course.

You mean Propper?  I haven't seen that they sell a "mil-spec minus the nomex" flightsuit, where have you seen this? Closest I've come across is is Flight Suits Ltd/Gibson & Barnes in El Cajon, CA, and they want over $100 for their non-nomex flightsuit.

Interestingly, the utility uniform Vanguard sells (and CAPMart before that) looks nothing like the one depicted in the 39-1.

On the subject of dyeing a nomex flightsuit, you might be able to go to a navy blue from a desert tan one.  I wouldn't try to go from sage green to navy blue.

[Eclipse]

On the subject of dyeing a nomex flightsuit, you might be able to go to a navy blue from a desert tan one.  I wouldn't try to go from sage green to navy blue.

There's also the risk of leaving a "you-shaped" stain on the seat of the aircraft after a long summer high-bird flight.

[Slim]

Does anyone have any experience flying in this "Blue Utility Coverall"?

I bought one.  It looks ridiculous and was a total waste of money.  Think of the cheapest Korean made imitation flight suit sold by one of the vendors at an air show and that's what you've got.  If you have any pride in your appearance and enjoy looking your best as an ambassador of CAP, you will refrain from wearing this monstrosity.

I'm guessing you got the Rothco version.  Does it have the three pockets on the upper thighs?  The Tru-Spec version doesn't have them, and it's a heavier poly-cotton twill fabric.

It's become my uniform of choice lately, and doesn't look bad at all.  Since our exclusive uniform provider has let me down again, I've found a couple of local sources for the Atlanco Tru-Spec version.  Just need to make the time for a couple of phone calls and a possible road trip.

Regarding the dye, I have an old non-serviceable flight suit that I would use as a guinea pig before trying it on the good one.  I probably won't end up going through with it in the end.  I was just hoping to get a little more use out of that $200 investment than what the Air Force and CAP gave me when they dropped the change back in 2002-3.