Should every cadet that joins be routed to an ENCAMPMENT?

[Private Investigator]

It really depends on the Cadet. 12 or 16 Basic or C/CMSgt.

If a Cadet joined last month  he should not be going to encampment this month. On the other hand a Cadet should not wait until he is a C/CMSgt to go either. I have seen that happen before.

[Ned]

I've commanded a region encampment or two in my time.  The issues are exactly as others have noted - finding DoD facilities with support for 2-300 transients is not an insignificant task.  But just as important as finding a facility is finding a facility that will not bump you a month out because a higher priority unit wants the facility.  (Happened to me multiple times.)

But there are significant travel costs associated with encampments outside your wing.  It is hard enough to get Mom and Dad to drive an hour or two with a minivan full of cadets, but their ability to drive 3-4 (or more!) hours one way is likely a severly limiting factor.  And again, pity the large regions where a regional encampment could easily be a thousand miles away, and often not particularly close to a major airport.

And let me add a final consideration - as a region DCP I felt it was important for wings to have a viable encampment program if for no other reason than "having an encampment" is an extremely perishable skillset in the CP.  If a wing goes without an encampment for a year or two, we lose a lot of the critical senior member expertise.  In smaller wings the depth of the senior member encampment bench is pretty shallow, and with normal turnover could easily hit the point of no return in just a couple of years.

Like schools, the best encampments are local.  I agree with many here that there is probably a minimum size for an effective encampment (50-75 or so), but logistics and transportation are so very much easier within a wing.

And as to the original question, I believe that we can do a better job of creating an "encampment expectation"in CP -- the expectation that every cadet (and CP officer) will go to encampment early in their careers and make the cadets eager to apply for staff in the out years.  But I also agree that the point of encampment is to support the local units where 90 - 95% of our magic occurs on Tuesday nights and the local weekend activities.

Ned Lee
Encampment Enthusiast

[Major Carrales]

I wish encampments we not so far away for most.  Texas, for example, is a huge Wing.  9 or 10 hour drives for an encampment...it "ain't no Rhode Island."  I have always wondered how the Wing would handle a CAP RESURGENCE, where there were ten of thousands of cadets (possible if even cities of 10,000 persons suddenly got squadrons...pipe dreaming at it's best!) How would the two encampments (summer and winter) deal with 500 plus cadets each go'round.  Yikes.

I would like Texas Groups, with Wing and Region Support, to hold GROUP LEVEL encampments where one or two groups could mitigate the travel and logistical issues.

[Eclipse]

I would like Texas Groups, with Wing and Region Support, to hold GROUP LEVEL encampments where one or two groups could mitigate the travel and logistical issues.

I don't see any reason why they can't, assuming available facilities, demographics that support the activity, and available staff, but saying it's possible doesn't materialize
any of those resources.

Sparky, I know your area has serious issues of time, space, and money, so wings like Texas probably need to be treated "special", and its disappointing to think
that no one from your Region of Wing is considering these issues - driving distance is something that we consider every year when turning down applicants, so the
inverse should be true as well.  With that said, in my wing 5-6 hours is not unusual, and more happens fairly regularly.

Were I TXWG DCP, I'd be looking at where people live and come from for the existing activities, and with the Wing CC's input, looking for a cutoff of reasonable driving
distance.  5-6 is probably the top of the chart I'd use.  If there were enough cadets outside that distance, and ramping a new activity didn't impact the viability
of successful programs, I'd be looking to start more encampments.  But again, having that demo information doesn't materialize resources, and as Ned mentioned, a decent encampment staff
can take years to grow organically.

[NCRblues]

I would like Texas Groups, with Wing and Region Support, to hold GROUP LEVEL encampments where one or two groups could mitigate the travel and logistical issues.

I would follow the chain and ask the Wing DCP if this has been thought over. Maybe even volunteer to be the OIC that will assist groups in getting these things off the ground. 

[Jaison009]

We had the same issues in Alaska; however, it some places you could not get to without a boat or flying in (Kenai, Juneau (state capital), etc). This kept most of our encampments on Ft. Wainwright (Fairbanks), Eilson AFB (North Pole), Elmendorf(Anchorage), Ft. Richardson (Anchorage), or Kulis AGB (AK ANG outside Anchorage). From Fairbanks to Anchorage or vice versa is a 6 hour drive one way with only one main road connecting the interior and MatSu Valley. From Nome to either location is ungodly and no straight shot. From one of the islands it is a flight/boat in and out. As large as the state is there are only 19 squadrons. We averaged about 200 plus per encampment.

I wish encampments we not so far away for most.  Texas, for example, is a huge Wing.  9 or 10 hour drives for an encampment...it "ain't no Rhode Island."  I have always wondered how the Wing would handle a CAP RESURGENCE, where there were ten of thousands of cadets (possible if even cities of 10,000 persons suddenly got squadrons...pipe dreaming at it's best!) How would the two encampments (summer and winter) deal with 500 plus cadets each go'round.  Yikes.

I would like Texas Groups, with Wing and Region Support, to hold GROUP LEVEL encampments where one or two groups could mitigate the travel and logistical issues.

[PHall]

I wish encampments we not so far away for most.  Texas, for example, is a huge Wing.  9 or 10 hour drives for an encampment...it "ain't no Rhode Island."  I have always wondered how the Wing would handle a CAP RESURGENCE, where there were ten of thousands of cadets (possible if even cities of 10,000 persons suddenly got squadrons...pipe dreaming at it's best!) How would the two encampments (summer and winter) deal with 500 plus cadets each go'round.  Yikes.

I would like Texas Groups, with Wing and Region Support, to hold GROUP LEVEL encampments where one or two groups could mitigate the travel and logistical issues.

You don't it any worse then many of the other western states.  In CAWG an 8 hour drive to Encampment is not unusual, yet we seem to have no problems filling all the beds we have available. As a matter of fact, that's our biggest problem, not enough beds available.

[lordmonar]

On aspect of this conversation that has not been looked at is......what should the "encampment" be in the first place.

I am not talking about th 52-16 requirements per say.....but why should a cadet go to encampment?  Why should a cadet go back to encampment?

Often encampments are based aroud what I call the "basic training summer camp" model.....this is not a judgement call just a statement.

But once completed....why go back?  Some wings have an advanced flight...or second year program.....but most don't.    So the "normal" progression would be....12 year joins CAP, goes to Encampment as a basic, then maybe competes for an NCSA and then finally has the rank to apply for staff.

I would suggest that we reformat "encampment" to be more like a BSA summer camp.  (yes I know people hate that but bear with me).

Back in the 80's-90's (when I was on BSA summer camp staff), they had a program called Scout to First Class....basiclly aimed at the first time scouts and was desigend to give them all their skills and trianing they needed to complete all their badges up to First Class (Scout ranks go....Scout, Tenderfoot, 2d Class, 1st Class, Star, Life, Eagle for you not Scouters).  The rest of the summer camp was based around Eagle Required Merit Badges and outdoor Meritbadges and Experinces.  The scouts would sign up for classes like Registration Day at a University.  Picking what classes they wanted to take, when their free period was, and where they neeed to be....base on their own wants and needs, and of course availabity.

So.....image if you will....a Regional/National CAP encampment.

A centeralised facility that opens with Staff Development in Late May/Early June.  The first week of encampment starts 2nd full week of june...and runs 10 or so weeks until August....then a week of tear down and pack up.

The attendees arrive on Sunday inprocess, sign up for classes, and settle in......training begins at 0600 Monday.
For anyone under the rank of SSgt they go into the "Writght Brothers Program" aimed at getting them all the skills they need to earn the WB.
Everyone else....it is pick what you want to do.  Weapons Training, ES stuff, Flight School, Leadership, Effective Writing, Effective Speaking, Communications, First Aid, Wilderness survival, model rocketry, RC aircraft flying, Repeling, even swimming and life saving/life quarding classes.

What this does...is that it changes the cadet encampment model.

12 year old joins CAP....goest to Encampment first Summer, then again at 13 and 14......at this point they have pretty much had a chance to do everything so they now look at going back as staff or looking to the really cool stuff at the NCSAs.

If you figure a facility that could handle 200 or so attendees.......you encourage UNITS to come as a UNIT and not as individuals as we do now.  Units would bid in the winter on when they wanted to go to encampment.   Since units are going together it helps simplify transportations.  Smaller units could team up and share the costs of getting to and from encampment.

This would not prevent wings from doing their own encampents......But just looking at the numbers....we have around 25K cadets.    Allowing PRWG, AKWG, HIWG and OS units to do their own thing......with a goal of getting every cadet to encampment every year....with a stated capacity of 200 attendees and a 10 week season....we would need 13 "regional" encampment facilities across the country to support this.

Locateing them based on membership population centers....would put most of them on the east coast/central areas with CAWG/TXWG/FLWG probably haveing one each.

With regional training facilites we can use them year round for other training activities like RCLS, and senior member PD, ES academies, etc.
With regional training faclities we reduce the cost of encampment by reducing duplication of effort and reducing the overhead costs.

With regional training facilities running all summer long we help eliminate the "I can't go that week my sister is getting merried/the famly renion/my dog is getting neutered that week" problem of getting to encampment.  While we encourage units going together singletons can always make arragements to join other units going when it is more convienent.

Yes.....regionalised encaments is a long way off pipe dream and brings a lot of problems with them.....travel costs, 12 week staff commitment, purchasing and maintaining faclities.   

But their it could be done.

[Garibaldi]

I've always asked myself why don't we have a sort of basic training for new cadets? Logistically, it would be a nightmare IMO, but the benefits really outweigh the consequences. If we held a basic encampment, held off new cadets from actively being a part of CAP until they complete the one or two week camp, and returned these cadet airmen to their home units as well-disciplined, functional cadets, what would be the ultimate benefit or harm?

Seeing as how the cadet program is more closely modeled on the military paradigm than the senior program, having a one or two week basic training camp, run by cadet NCOs and officers with minimal oversight by seniors (kind of like now, come to think of it), would instill in the new cadets the proper mindset of how things should be run across the board, as far as a wing was concerned. That way, the regular encampment could focus more on the future NCOs and officers than re-training new cadets from Po-Dunk Composite who learned D&C from Gomer Pyle.

Funding, as always, would be an issue. My idea would also include giving the new cadet a basic blues uniform to wear at graduation. The cadet would be responsible for the insignia and nameplates and such. But the week would focus on how to wear the uniform properly, proper D&C, customs and courtesies, proper hair cuts, all the things that you really can't learn in a 2 hour meeting a week (cadets forget a ton of stuff in a week).

Anyway, in a perfect world this would work, I believe. Cadet academies aside, this would focus on the root of the newbie issue and develop a new crop of airmen who would then be able to learn the ropes of being an NCO at their home unit.

Ooohhh...an NCO academy....

[lordmonar]

I've always asked myself why don't we have a sort of basic training for new cadets? Logistically, it would be a nightmare IMO, but the benefits really outweigh the consequences. If we held a basic encampment, held off new cadets from actively being a part of CAP until they complete the one or two week camp, and returned these cadet airmen to their home units as well-disciplined, functional cadets, what would be the ultimate benefit or harm?

Seeing as how the cadet program is more closely modeled on the military paradigm than the senior program, having a one or two week basic training camp, run by cadet NCOs and officers with minimal oversight by seniors (kind of like now, come to think of it), would instill in the new cadets the proper mindset of how things should be run across the board, as far as a wing was concerned. That way, the regular encampment could focus more on the future NCOs and officers than re-training new cadets from Po-Dunk Composite who learned D&C from Gomer Pyle.

Funding, as always, would be an issue. My idea would also include giving the new cadet a basic blues uniform to wear at graduation. The cadet would be responsible for the insignia and nameplates and such. But the week would focus on how to wear the uniform properly, proper D&C, customs and courtesies, proper hair cuts, all the things that you really can't learn in a 2 hour meeting a week (cadets forget a ton of stuff in a week).

Anyway, in a perfect world this would work, I believe. Cadet academies aside, this would focus on the root of the newbie issue and develop a new crop of airmen who would then be able to learn the ropes of being an NCO at their home unit.

Ooohhh...an NCO academy....

If we allowed new cadets to join at 11 and finished with the 6th grade...then we could do a basic training......recruit in the end of May and get them to encampment that summer.........ties right in with my encampment as summer camp idea.

[SarDragon]

Why should a cadet go to encampment?  Why should a cadet go back to encampment?

The short answer to both Qs is leadership opportunities above and beyond those available at the squadron level.

The first year folks get to participate and interact in a larger flight than they likely have at their home unit. They learn teamwork on a larger scale.They expand their world view of CAP.

Returnees get to be in higher level leadership positions that may also not be available locally, such as flight commander of a full size flight, squadron commander, and even encampment cadet commander.

It's all about building on prior years.

[ol'fido]

That's how we do it:

1st Year- Basic Encampment
2nd Year-Advanced Training Squadron
3rd Year-Flight Staff
4th Year- Squadron Staff
5th Year-Exec Staff
6th Year-Once you hit the exec staff level, we usually have a progression from c/XO to c/DCC to c/CC. So from there may be 7-8 years of progression. Not everyone will finish this. There are only so many staff positions. But we purposely structured it so that a person who comes back to encampment every year has a good chance of advancing to the Cadet Commander slot. The cadets understand this and agree with it. We have had cadets who refused to take a staff position because it was someone else's turn for it until that person had confirmed to them that they wouldn't be able to attend. If someone of senior cadet rank comes in to the encampment without having gone through that process, they are plugged into a staff position only if there is no one else available. So there won't be any c/LtCols bumping c/1stLts out of their job.

I would say no to the idea on dropping the age to 11 or out of 6th grade. I like a hard age for membership and 12 is young enough. While there are exceptions to every rule, I have had to much experience at encampments with 13 or 14 year old c/LtCols who didn't have the maturity or experience to go with their rank or position.

[lordmonar]

I have had to much experience at encampments with 13 or 14 year old c/LtCols who didn't have the maturity or experience to go with their rank or position.

I got to call BS on that.....but I guess that is for another thread. 

[Jaison009]

I attended my first encampment just a few months after joining and was really glad I did. Within the year after that, we had an NCO leadership academy/encampment WIWAC in KY wing at Ft. Knox. It started on a Fri night and ended sunday afternoon. It was my second "encampment". I learned a lot there and continued learning.

I've always asked myself why don't we have a sort of basic training for new cadets? Logistically, it would be a nightmare IMO, but the benefits really outweigh the consequences. If we held a basic encampment, held off new cadets from actively being a part of CAP until they complete the one or two week camp, and returned these cadet airmen to their home units as well-disciplined, functional cadets, what would be the ultimate benefit or harm?

Seeing as how the cadet program is more closely modeled on the military paradigm than the senior program, having a one or two week basic training camp, run by cadet NCOs and officers with minimal oversight by seniors (kind of like now, come to think of it), would instill in the new cadets the proper mindset of how things should be run across the board, as far as a wing was concerned. That way, the regular encampment could focus more on the future NCOs and officers than re-training new cadets from Po-Dunk Composite who learned D&C from Gomer Pyle.

Funding, as always, would be an issue. My idea would also include giving the new cadet a basic blues uniform to wear at graduation. The cadet would be responsible for the insignia and nameplates and such. But the week would focus on how to wear the uniform properly, proper D&C, customs and courtesies, proper hair cuts, all the things that you really can't learn in a 2 hour meeting a week (cadets forget a ton of stuff in a week).

Anyway, in a perfect world this would work, I believe. Cadet academies aside, this would focus on the root of the newbie issue and develop a new crop of airmen who would then be able to learn the ropes of being an NCO at their home unit.

Ooohhh...an NCO academy....

[cap235629]

Sparky I admit that I have "skimmed" the replies to this question.  I do however believe that a cadet does not get a thorough cadet experience unless the cadet attends an encampment on an actual military installation and can actually interact with the "RM".  I was not a CAP cadet but was a cadet in Marine Corps JROTC and count my 2 spring breaks at MCRD Parris Island and NAB Little Creek as defining moments of my youth.  Encampment SHOULD be an experience that will breed stories 25 years later or we just aren't doing it right......

[Major Carrales]

I wish encampments we not so far away for most.  Texas, for example, is a huge Wing.  9 or 10 hour drives for an encampment...it "ain't no Rhode Island."  I have always wondered how the Wing would handle a CAP RESURGENCE, where there were ten of thousands of cadets (possible if even cities of 10,000 persons suddenly got squadrons...pipe dreaming at it's best!) How would the two encampments (summer and winter) deal with 500 plus cadets each go'round.  Yikes.

I would like Texas Groups, with Wing and Region Support, to hold GROUP LEVEL encampments where one or two groups could mitigate the travel and logistical issues.

You don't it any worse then many of the other western states.  In CAWG an 8 hour drive to Encampment is not unusual, yet we seem to have no problems filling all the beds we have available. As a matter of fact, that's our biggest problem, not enough beds available.

If the idea is that "everyone goes" then it should be easier to go.  How many more people would go if there were more options?  That is the slippery-slope.

[Major Carrales]

Sparky I admit that I have "skimmed" the replies to this question.  I do however believe that a cadet does not get a thorough cadet experience unless the cadet attends an encampment on an actual military installation and can actually interact with the "RM".  I was not a CAP cadet but was a cadet in Marine Corps JROTC and count my 2 spring breaks at MCRD Parris Island and NAB Little Creek as defining moments of my youth.  Encampment SHOULD be an experience that will breed stories 25 years later or we just aren't doing it right......

How many encampments these days actually occur at Military Facilities?  I know we, in Texas, try to use State Facilities and the Alert Academy.  However, with base closures and security, I think those days are numbered.

I agree with the crux of your point, however, I don't see it working to a return to the Military Reservation encampment.

[jimmydeanno]

Sparky I admit that I have "skimmed" the replies to this question.  I do however believe that a cadet does not get a thorough cadet experience unless the cadet attends an encampment on an actual military installation and can actually interact with the "RM".  I was not a CAP cadet but was a cadet in Marine Corps JROTC and count my 2 spring breaks at MCRD Parris Island and NAB Little Creek as defining moments of my youth.  Encampment SHOULD be an experience that will breed stories 25 years later or we just aren't doing it right......

How many encampments these days actually occur at Military Facilities?  I know we, in Texas, try to use State Facilities and the Alert Academy.  However, with base closures and security, I think those days are numbered.

I agree with the crux of your point, however, I don't see it working to a return to the Military Reservation encampment.

Quite a few. Your neighbor to the East does, for example.  Every wing I've ever been a member of does, whether it's an active duty base, guard base, or reserve center, they are on some sort of military facility.  Some wings hold them at Military Academies.

However, it seems like you're going down the "not every cadet can afford it, so if it's expected we should make it free" road.  I don't know of any summer camp of similar length that operates for as cheaply as a CAP encampment.  I went to a YMCA camp when I was 10 (20 years ago) that was $600/wk.  I see the same camp now charges $1,200 for the same time period.  Meanwhile, our CAP encampment is under $100, less than the "deposit" of similar (as similar as you can get) events.

[Major Carrales]

Sparky I admit that I have "skimmed" the replies to this question.  I do however believe that a cadet does not get a thorough cadet experience unless the cadet attends an encampment on an actual military installation and can actually interact with the "RM".  I was not a CAP cadet but was a cadet in Marine Corps JROTC and count my 2 spring breaks at MCRD Parris Island and NAB Little Creek as defining moments of my youth.  Encampment SHOULD be an experience that will breed stories 25 years later or we just aren't doing it right......

How many encampments these days actually occur at Military Facilities?  I know we, in Texas, try to use State Facilities and the Alert Academy.  However, with base closures and security, I think those days are numbered.

I agree with the crux of your point, however, I don't see it working to a return to the Military Reservation encampment.

Quite a few. Your neighbor to the East does, for example.  Every wing I've ever been a member of does, whether it's an active duty base, guard base, or reserve center, they are on some sort of military facility.  Some wings hold them at Military Academies.

However, it seems like you're going down the "not every cadet can afford it, so if it's expected we should make it free" road.  I don't know of any summer camp of similar length that operates for as cheaply as a CAP encampment.  I went to a YMCA camp when I was 10 (20 years ago) that was $600/wk.  I see the same camp now charges $1,200 for the same time period.  Meanwhile, our CAP encampment is under $100, less than the "deposit" of similar (as similar as you can get) events.

No, not free...but more accessible.  I am hoping to send some cadets to that "Eastern" state you mentioned...although I would call someone from there an EASTERNER or YANKEE. 

[Garibaldi]

I have had to much experience at encampments with 13 or 14 year old c/LtCols who didn't have the maturity or experience to go with their rank or position.

I got to call BS on that.....but I guess that is for another thread. 

Not even going to go there. I can't vouch for the actual number of 13/14 year old C/LTCs but I have had experience with a 14 yr old C/COL that would turn anyone's hair gray. Her and her mother both.