Orientation Flights Curry Requirement

Started by Okayish Aviator, September 14, 2016, 12:30:46 AM

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Okayish Aviator

Hello all,

I had a quick question I wanted to ask,

Is there a precedent, or ability for a squadron commander or above to waive the requirement for cadets to have their Curry achievement prior to participating in O-flights? Currently, we have a squadron that has several new cadets who are hard chargers but have not completed it, and with us coming up on end of FY, We'd like to get as many in the air as we can.

Right now, I have 6, but if I were able to include those who are always at the meetings but haven't gotten their Curry, we'd have closer to 15.

What can you tell me? Can we waive it under certain circumstances?
Always give 100%, unless you're giving blood.


ßτε

There is no requirement for cadets to earn the Curry before an orientation flight. We are encouraged to fly them as soon as possible after they join.

Eclipse

+1 Curry is not connected to Orides.

They can fly as soon as there is a CAPID in the system with a temporary printed ID card.

"That Others May Zoom"

PHall

Quote from: DocJekyll on September 14, 2016, 12:30:46 AM
Hello all,

I had a quick question I wanted to ask,

Is there a precedent, or ability for a squadron commander or above to waive the requirement for cadets to have their Curry achievement prior to participating in O-flights? Currently, we have a squadron that has several new cadets who are hard chargers but have not completed it, and with us coming up on end of FY, We'd like to get as many in the air as we can.

Right now, I have 6, but if I were able to include those who are always at the meetings but haven't gotten their Curry, we'd have closer to 15.

What can you tell me? Can we waive it under certain circumstances?

Please provide a reg cite saying you have to have your Curry before you can fly. We'll wait.
(hint, there isn't one)

Briank


Panzerbjorn

Major
Command Pilot
Ground Branch Director
Eagle Scout

Eclipse

Quote from: Panzerbjorn on September 18, 2016, 07:04:27 PM
Which aircrew qualification requires you to have at least your Curry?

All of them - GES requires Curry.

Honestly, I seriously doubt anyone would connect that with o-rides.

"That Others May Zoom"

Panzerbjorn

Yeah, I figured that one out after I posted.
Major
Command Pilot
Ground Branch Director
Eagle Scout

TheSkyHornet

Bear in mind that some units may have a Curry as an SOP to encourage new cadets to actually do the training and not just join because they want airplane rides.

DakRadz

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on September 20, 2016, 06:14:21 PM
Bear in mind that some units may have a Curry as an SOP to encourage new cadets to actually do the training and not just join because they want airplane rides.
Are there that many units who have so many available O flights that they can't get cadets through the Curry beforehand? Must be nice!

Eclipse

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on September 20, 2016, 06:14:21 PM
Bear in mind that some units may have a Curry as an SOP to encourage new cadets to actually do the training and not just join because they want airplane rides.

I can't imagine any higher HQ would ever approve that.

"That Others May Zoom"

BHartman007

Quote from: Eclipse on September 20, 2016, 06:50:20 PM
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on September 20, 2016, 06:14:21 PM
Bear in mind that some units may have a Curry as an SOP to encourage new cadets to actually do the training and not just join because they want airplane rides.

I can't imagine any higher HQ would ever approve that.

I doubt a higher HQ would ever know about it.

Wing Assistant Director of Administration
Squadron Deputy Commander for Cadets

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: BHartman007 on September 25, 2016, 05:13:08 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on September 20, 2016, 06:50:20 PM
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on September 20, 2016, 06:14:21 PM
Bear in mind that some units may have a Curry as an SOP to encourage new cadets to actually do the training and not just join because they want airplane rides.

I can't imagine any higher HQ would ever approve that.

I doubt a higher HQ would ever know about it.

If they are doing their job, they should.

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: Майор Хаткевич on September 25, 2016, 06:59:43 AM
Quote from: BHartman007 on September 25, 2016, 05:13:08 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on September 20, 2016, 06:50:20 PM
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on September 20, 2016, 06:14:21 PM
Bear in mind that some units may have a Curry as an SOP to encourage new cadets to actually do the training and not just join because they want airplane rides.

I can't imagine any higher HQ would ever approve that.

I doubt a higher HQ would ever know about it.

If they are doing their job, they should.

It's not a prohibited practice. It's within a Commander's authority to make that an SOP.

In saying that, "should they" is a different game.

Quote from: DakRadz on September 20, 2016, 06:16:40 PM

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on September 20, 2016, 06:14:21 PM
Bear in mind that some units may have a Curry as an SOP to encourage new cadets to actually do the training and not just join because they want airplane rides.
Are there that many units who have so many available O flights that they can't get cadets through the Curry beforehand? Must be nice!

It's nearly impossible for us to get O-Flights scheduled in on a monthly basis. The local aircraft are either deployed elsewhere or are in maintenance, or we're told that we need to wait for approved funding. It's a common practice for units with aircraft to put their own cadets in for O-Flights even though another unit has already cast the email requesting accommodations. Is it right? Doesn't matter. That's the reality of it. Unfortunately, there's a lot of politics in CAP, even in something as minuscule as getting cadets into a plane ride they're entitled to as a paying member.

DakRadz

My point being, you can make it known there is a ranking system (consistent with attempting to meet the guidelines for first flight, getting 17 yo cadets up before age out, etc.), but if it's that difficult to get O flights, why aren't the CP staff helping timely promotions occur?

As I recall, you're the CDC, and I am not actually making a personal attack. But if someone joins just for O flights, specifically telling that cadet they have to put effort into the program is one thing, versus telling every cadet they cannot flight until they hit Curry, and then  that group misses one of the quarterly flight opportunities for an arbitrary rule.

Maybe we are talking at cross purposes, or there is more to the reasoning. Hopefully I was more clear this time.

Eclipse

#15
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on September 29, 2016, 12:17:51 AM
It's not a prohibited practice. It's within a Commander's authority to make that an SOP.

No, it actually isn't.  At a minimum, it would require a supplement to 52-16, which would require NHQ approval.

CAPR 52-16, Page 14:
http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/R052_016_2011_02_BFAB729553AB1.pdf
"4-5. Cadet Flying. Surveys show that the desire to fly is the most common reason youth join CAP. Units
are responsible for coordinating their flying needs with the wing. Wings are responsible for developing
plans to maximize flying opportunities for cadets in every unit within the wing. Working with their units,
the wing will provide each cadet with a flight in CAP or military aircraft within 90 days of joining, as
budgets and mission tempo allow.
Furthermore, wings will strive to provide each cadet with at least one
flight per year, if funds are available. See 8-8 and CAPP 52-7, Cadet Orientation Flight Syllabus, for
details. Regions and wings are authorized to issue a supplement to this paragraph."

A unit level SOP OI mandating Curry before o-rides would routinely preclude the above and violate 52-16.

Further...

Per CAPR 5-1, Page 4:
https://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/R005_004_F7084C4E1AA0E.pdf
"(1) Commanders are encouraged to keep the number of publications issued by their headquarters to the absolute minimum needed for mission accomplishment and must promptly rescind those publications that are no longer needed or have been superseded. When the parent publication of a supplement or OI is revised/reissued, commanders must ensure the supplement or OI is revised and re-approved, if required, or rescinded within 6 months of the new parent publication's issue. However, higher headquarters policy documents shall supersede all lower headquarters publications during this 6 month period. Publications will not conflict with higher headquarters directives. Commanders must also ensure that when publishing supplements, operating instructions and pamphlets that the contents only pertain to those personnel within his/her command. In addition, a copy of each publication must be forwarded to the next higher level of command for review immediately upon publication."

Same issue, a Curry mandate violates the above in regards to 52-16. Note also that OIs require next-echelon review.

Such an SOP would also conflict with the admittedly "should-laden" / non-regulatory CAPP 52-7:
https://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/P052_007_9F576CAE3B358.pdf
CAPP 52-7, Page 2
"Squadron Commanders should try to provide each new cadet with an orientation flight within 60
days of joining CAP. Squadron commanders should also strive to provide each cadet with at least 1,
but preferably 2, flights per year by conducting orientation flight days once per quarter."


"3. ELIGIBILITY REQUIREMENTS
Orientation flights are available only to current CAP cadets under 18 years of age. Senior members
are not authorized to participate in flights being conducted as Air Force-assigned missions
unless they are serving as the pilot in command or escorting a cadet who requires special
assistance"


There are also a host of other reasons this would never pass muster, not the least of which:

QCUA includes O-rides as a factor, artificially limiting rides potentially costs those points.

"New Cadet Orientation Flights within 180 days of joining" is a Commander's Dashboard metric of a successful CP,
artificially limiting O-rides impacts that number as well.

But the main reason it's "not a unit CC's prerogative" is because flying is considered a key-factor for cadet retention,
any unit CC artificially limiting cadets from flying based on a Curry requirement is working against the stated goals
of the CP and CAP as an organizaiton.

"That Others May Zoom"

Briank

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on September 29, 2016, 12:17:51 AM
It's nearly impossible for us to get O-Flights scheduled in on a monthly basis. The local aircraft are either deployed elsewhere or are in maintenance, or we're told that we need to wait for approved funding. It's a common practice for units with aircraft to put their own cadets in for O-Flights even though another unit has already cast the email requesting accommodations. Is it right? Doesn't matter. That's the reality of it. Unfortunately, there's a lot of politics in CAP, even in something as minuscule as getting cadets into a plane ride they're entitled to as a paying member.

Seems to me like there's just a shortage of available airplanes.  I'm a pilot that joined as a Senior Member right about a year ago (just renewed).  So far I've only managed to get into a CAP airplane once and that was a back seat ride for my first Mission Scanner training flight (at my first SAREX).  At my second SAREX I was unable to get my second Mission Scanner flight in due to lack of airplanes.  I've been unable to get my flight review/form 5 prep (nevermind the actual form 5 itself) done, because, guess what, lack of accessible airplanes in my area...  Doesn't surprise me at all that O-Flights aren't getting done if pilots can't even get airplanes for training!