Corporate uniforms and customs and courtesies

Started by citizensoldier, September 22, 2008, 01:49:54 AM

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lordmonar

First,

I don't know how many of you have any recent military experince....but we don't really salute that much.

No really. 

We of course salute when we pass officers on the street and during retreat....but we don't "report" when we stick our head in the CC's office.  If a bunch of us are outside for some function...we use the "sporting event" rule.

Working in the field we just don't do it.  (show me in any regulation that you don't saluet "in the field  ;D).

Second,

151 is older than the current CPU.  They still have not worked the bugs out of the CPU in 39-1 let alone any of the other regs/manuals/pamphlets.

Bottom line.....we in CAP do a pretty good job with C&C on the whole.  Usually it is someone who wants to turn CAP into basic training or "full metal jacket" who makes makes the most noise about C&C..

As for the technical answer....I think as I can't back this up in regs....is the intention of CPU and to an extent the aviator shirt uniforms was for them to act as if they were in USAF style....hence the "military style" working in 151 instead of "USAF uniforms".

Either way....I'm not going to get bent out of shape if some CAP 2d Lt or SM fails to snap to and render a crisp one....I got better things to do.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

ol'fido

Gen. Patton insisted that in his command that everyone salute everyone. If two privates passed each other on the street, they were supposed to saluteeach other not wave. Patton didn't think that it was unthinkable for an officer to salute an enlisted man first. The reason he thought this way was that he wanted to instill a sense of pride and  unit cohesion in his men as well as a mutual respect for all members of their unit. To do this a wave wouldn't cut it. If I see my wing king, who is also a good friend of mine, out on the street and we are both in civvies, I will render the salute out of respect. This is what I was taught in the RM. Whether a person is wearing a uniform or not, he is still a COL, BG, MG, etc. If you don't know who a person is that is different.
Lt. Col. Randy L. Mitchell
Historian, Group 1, IL-006

majdomke

I'll add my question/comment here... from my recollection about C&C in the AF as well as CAP as a cadet 25 yrs ago, you saluted the rank or position. IE... if I'm a 1LT and my assistant is also a 1LT, she would salute me out of respect for me, being a commander and in a command position over her. This just makes sense and follows proper courtesies. Sometimes a commander is also a lower ranking officer than those under his/her command, they should still follow C&C and render a salute because that person is their commander. Am I right here or sinking off the deep end? ???

MIKE

Normal C&C is based off what's on your uniform.  Positional C&C applies in drill and ceremonies.
Mike Johnston

Eclipse

Quote from: Lt Domke on December 10, 2008, 08:47:11 PM
I'll add my question/comment here... from my recollection about C&C in the AF as well as CAP as a cadet 25 yrs ago, you saluted the rank or position. IE... if I'm a 1LT and my assistant is also a 1LT, she would salute me out of respect for me, being a commander and in a command position over her. This just makes sense and follows proper courtesies. Sometimes a commander is also a lower ranking officer than those under his/her command, they should still follow C&C and render a salute because that person is their commander. Am I right here or sinking off the deep end? ???

The shoulder always wins, even when the person of higher grade is your subordinate, except in cases where the subordinate is reporting to the lower grade. (A good Commander should be able to seperate the courtesy of a grade-based salute from who in the room is in charge, and you'd be surprised how far that little bit of "honey / respect" will get you with your "bees", especially if they are expecting less...)

I take Lord's comments above as truth.  Day-to-day, there's not a lot of need for saluting, if that's not your world, fine, but there are many of us who are active in the encampment program (where you'll wear out your arm returning salutes) and / or have offices on active bases - in some cases we are the face of CAP to another service, and in many case, the face of the Air Force, too.  We're just trying to get it right to avoid anyone looking foolish, or belaboring the situation beyond the 2-second acknowledgment its supposed to be.

"That Others May Zoom"

MIKE

Quote from: Eclipse on December 10, 2008, 09:22:21 PMThe shoulder always wins, even when the person of higher grade is your subordinate, except in cases where the subordinate is reporting to the lower grade.

Quote from: CAPP 151(3) You do not salute when indoors unless you are
formally reporting to an officer senior in rank to you.
Mike Johnston

BuckeyeDEJ

Quote from: MIKE on December 10, 2008, 09:30:09 PM
Quote from: CAPP 151(3) You do not salute when indoors unless you are
formally reporting to an officer senior in rank to you.

Of course, you never initiate a salute to someone junior to you, but that goes in any situation....


CAP since 1984: Lt Col; former C/Lt Col; MO, MRO, MS, IO; former sq CC/CD/PA; group, wing, region PA, natl cmte mbr, nat'l staff member.
REAL LIFE: Working journalist in SPG, DTW (News), SRQ, PIT (Trib), 2D1, WVI, W22; editor, desk chief, designer, photog, columnist, reporter, graphics guy, visual editor, but not all at once. Now a communications manager for an international multisport venue.

JoeTomasone

Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on December 11, 2008, 02:04:44 AM

Of course, you never initiate a salute to someone junior to you, but that goes in any situation....


Quote from: CAPP 151
Saluting. It is a courtesy exchanged between members of
the Civil Air Patrol when in military-style uniform as both a
greeting and a symbol of mutual respect. As such, it is never
inappropriate to salute another individual.



BuckeyeDEJ

Quote from: JoeTomasone on December 11, 2008, 03:29:43 AM
Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on December 11, 2008, 02:04:44 AM
Of course, you never initiate a salute to someone junior to you, but that goes in any situation....
Quote from: CAPP 151
Saluting. It is a courtesy exchanged between members of the Civil Air Patrol when in military-style uniform as both a greeting and a symbol of mutual respect. As such, it is never inappropriate to salute another individual.
I'm going to be blunt: CAPP 151 is a vague waste of paper. Every senior member should get a copy of the same drill and ceremonies manual cadets get. That book? Air Force Manual 36-2203.

If you're a senior member, you lead by example. AFM 36-2203 is what cadets get, with a different cover on it. Seniors should get a copy, too -- and live by it, unless they want to spend their CAP career wearing a golf shirt. If you wear the Air Force uniform, you should absolutely know when to salute, how to stand at attention and how to keep your hands out of your pockets. (The latter thing is actually in the Air Force dress and appearance manual. Really. It's not some military urban legend.)

Seniors who understand D&C and customs and courtesies are the best teachers for cadets and set the best example for CAP, which after all is a paramilitary organization.

Quote from: AFMAN 36-2203
3.6. Exchange of Salutes. The salute is a courteous exchange of greetings, with the junior member always saluting first. When returning or rendering an individual salute, the head and eyes are turned toward the Colors or person saluted. When in ranks, the position of attention is maintained unless otherwise directed. Members of the Armed Forces in uniform exchange salutes under the following conditions:

3.6.1. Outdoors, salutes are exchanged upon recognition between officers and warrant officers and between officers or warrant officers and cadets or enlisted members of the Armed Forces. Saluting outdoors means salutes are exchanged when the persons involved are outside of a building. For example, if a person is on a porch, a covered sidewalk, a bus stop, a covered or open entryway, or a reviewing stand, the salute will be exchanged with a person on the sidewalk outside of the structure or with a person approaching or in the same structure. This applies both on and off military installations. The junior member should initiate the salute in time to allow the senior officer to return it. To prescribe an exact distance for all circumstances is not practical, but good judgment indicates when salutes should be
exchanged. A superior carrying articles in both hands need not return the salute, but he or she should nod in return or verbally acknowledge the salute. If the junior member is carrying articles in both hands, verbal greetings should be exchanged. Also, use these procedures when greeting an officer of a friendly foreign nation.

3.6.2. Indoors, except for formal reporting, salutes are not rendered.

3.6.3. In formation, members do not salute or return a salute unless given the command to do so. Normally the person in charge salutes and acknowledges salutes for the whole formation.

3.6.4. In groups, but not in formation, when a senior officer approaches, the first individual noticing the officer calls the group to attention. All members face the officer and salute. If the officer addresses an individual or the group, all remain at attention (unless otherwise ordered) until the end of the conversation, at which time they salute the officer.

3.6.5. In public gatherings, such as sporting events, meetings, or when a salute would be inappropriate or impractical, salutes between individuals need not be rendered.

3.6.6. Exchange of salutes between military pedestrians (including gate sentries) and officers in moving military vehicles is not mandatory. However, when officer passengers are readily identifiable (for example, officers in appropriately marked vehicles), the salute must be rendered.

3.6.7. Civilians may be saluted by persons in uniform. The President of the United States, as Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces, is always accorded the honor of a salute. Also, if the exchange of salutes is otherwise appropriate, it is customary for military members in civilian clothes to exchange salutes upon recognition.

3.6.8. Prisoners whose sentences include punitive discharges do not render the salute. All other prisoners, regardless of custody or grade, render the prescribed salute except when under armed guard.

3.6.9. In a work detail, individual workers do not salute. The person in charge salutes for the entire detail.

3.6.10. Any airman, NCO, or officer recognizing a need to salute or a need to return one may do so anywhere at any time.


CAP since 1984: Lt Col; former C/Lt Col; MO, MRO, MS, IO; former sq CC/CD/PA; group, wing, region PA, natl cmte mbr, nat'l staff member.
REAL LIFE: Working journalist in SPG, DTW (News), SRQ, PIT (Trib), 2D1, WVI, W22; editor, desk chief, designer, photog, columnist, reporter, graphics guy, visual editor, but not all at once. Now a communications manager for an international multisport venue.

JoeTomasone

Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on December 11, 2008, 05:31:15 AM
I'm going to be blunt: CAPP 151 is a vague waste of paper. Every senior member should get a copy of the same drill and ceremonies manual cadets get. That book? Air Force Manual 36-2203.

I'd be all for that -- but that's not what we have to work with at this date.  Unfortunately, even when it's badly written, horribly out of date, or otherwise distasteful, our regs/manuals/pamphlets dictate our conduct even when they conflict with USAF.   USAF has slightly different uniform regs than CAP does; but this does not mean that we can ignore 39-1 and just "Go Air Force" when it suits us.

With all due respect, if you feel that strongly about it (and that's a good thing), send it up the chain of command.  My suggestions for changes have all died somewhere enroute.


Rob Sherlin

  Jeez! I didn't even see this one!...A whole other thread on saluting?...How many of these are there?

  My POV stands the same as before. I see someone in uniform that displays officers rank, I will salute out of respect, courtesy, and honor, and will do so until someone points out something that "bans" me from doing so.

  I too, think it's more out of respect for the person and their rank....Not the uniform. I've been at airshows in regular clothes and took my nephew up to a pilot and said, "Captain, this is my nephew and he wanted to meet you and ask you about the Thunderbirds". When I did so, I saluted him without even thinking...The funny thing is...He saluted me back.

  It shows respect, and it's not going to kill you to lift your arm and snap your hand to your brow.

  If you are a CAP officer, and you meet at a military base, you approach the guard post at the entrance where a seargant is posted. Upon approaching him, he notices your rank, and salutes you......What would you do?
       Ignore the salute?
       Tell him he doesn't have to salute you?
       Accept the respect and salute him back?
To fly freely above the earth is the ultimate dream for me in life.....For I do not wish to wait till I pass to earn my wings.

Rob Sherlin SM, NER-NY-116

citizensoldier

Boy, I start a thread, get some answers and walk away for a bit and come back. 
Mt. Hood Composite Squadron 1987-1989
SSG Stillwater Composite Squadron 2008-2009
SSGBroken Arrow Composite Squadron FEB 2009-Present
SGT OKARNG 08 APR 1988-23 JUN 2009

tarheel gumby

Back when I was a mere PVT - 2, I had a Platoon Leader that sumed it up rather nicely for me. Salute when you recognize someone of a higher grade than yourself, weather in or out of uniform. I have never had anybody get uptight over being saluted.
Joseph Myers Maj. CAP
Squadron Historian MER NC 019
Historian MER NC 001
Historian MER 001

davedove

I'm always amazed about all the fuss that's made over a simple salute.  What its it?  Are there folks out there who don't think they should have to salute anyone?  Do the think initiating a salute makes them inferior?  Maybe they shouldn't be a part of an organization with military trappings.

I'll agree that the regs and pamphlets need to be udated and clarified, but really, what's the big deal?
David W. Dove, Maj, CAP
Deputy Commander for Seniors
Personnel/PD/Asst. Testing Officer
Ground Team Leader
Frederick Composite Squadron
MER-MD-003

citizensoldier

Quote from: davedove on December 11, 2008, 03:03:04 PM
I'm always amazed about all the fuss that's made over a simple salute.  What its it?  Are there folks out there who don't think they should have to salute anyone?  Do the think initiating a salute makes them inferior?  Maybe they shouldn't be a part of an organization with military trappings.

I'll agree that the regs and pamphlets need to be udated and clarified, but really, what's the big deal?

I hear ya.  I am Army Guard.  I just want to know when I have to.  I believe firmly in salute when in doubt but I want the to know the facts.
Mt. Hood Composite Squadron 1987-1989
SSG Stillwater Composite Squadron 2008-2009
SSGBroken Arrow Composite Squadron FEB 2009-Present
SGT OKARNG 08 APR 1988-23 JUN 2009

SarDragon

Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on December 11, 2008, 02:04:44 AM
Quote from: MIKE on December 10, 2008, 09:30:09 PM
Quote from: CAPP 151(3) You do not salute when indoors unless you are
formally reporting to an officer senior in rank to you.

Of course, you never initiate a salute to someone junior to you, but that goes in any situation....

Why not? I salute my 1Lt commander all the time. My Major DOR predates her joined date. No biggie. Goes with the territory of being a commander.

YMMV.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

BuckeyeDEJ

Quote from: JoeTomasone on December 11, 2008, 06:16:19 AM
Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on December 11, 2008, 05:31:15 AM
I'm going to be blunt: CAPP 151 is a vague waste of paper. Every senior member should get a copy of the same drill and ceremonies manual cadets get. That book? Air Force Manual 36-2203.

I'd be all for that -- but that's not what we have to work with at this date.  Unfortunately, even when it's badly written, horribly out of date, or otherwise distasteful, our regs/manuals/pamphlets dictate our conduct even when they conflict with USAF.   USAF has slightly different uniform regs than CAP does; but this does not mean that we can ignore 39-1 and just "Go Air Force" when it suits us.

With all due respect, if you feel that strongly about it (and that's a good thing), send it up the chain of command.  My suggestions for changes have all died somewhere enroute.

Man, it's already there -- cadets are trained in it!


CAP since 1984: Lt Col; former C/Lt Col; MO, MRO, MS, IO; former sq CC/CD/PA; group, wing, region PA, natl cmte mbr, nat'l staff member.
REAL LIFE: Working journalist in SPG, DTW (News), SRQ, PIT (Trib), 2D1, WVI, W22; editor, desk chief, designer, photog, columnist, reporter, graphics guy, visual editor, but not all at once. Now a communications manager for an international multisport venue.

Gunner C

Quote from: davedove on December 11, 2008, 03:03:04 PM
I'm always amazed about all the fuss that's made over a simple salute.  What its it?  Are there folks out there who don't think they should have to salute anyone?  Do the think initiating a salute makes them inferior?  Maybe they shouldn't be a part of an organization with military trappings.

I'll agree that the regs and pamphlets need to be udated and clarified, but really, what's the big deal?

I agree.  Being afforded the privilege of rendering/receiving salutes is something that should bind us together in this brotherhood/sisterhood that we call CAP.  Without the uniforms, customs, and courtesies, it's just another club.  We need to think of it as something cool.

Gunner

ZigZag911

I wear gray & whites; if someone salutes me (I'm a lt col) I will return it, since I was taught (as a cadet) first and foremost it is a GREETING (and also  a sign of respect for the officer's position & grade)!

It would seem rude to explain to someone why their courtesy is misplaced because of my clothing!

And if I see anyone wearing stars or eagles and we're in a place where one would normally salute, you'd better believe I'll "whip it out".

In fact, I have done so with CAP generals, colonels, and RM colonels, and nobody ever says "don't" (see first sentence).

BuckeyeDEJ

Quote from: SarDragon on December 12, 2008, 12:19:11 AM
Why not? I salute my 1Lt commander all the time. My Major DOR predates her joined date. No biggie. Goes with the territory of being a commander.

The salute is initiated by someone of junior rank and grade, and returned by the senior. The senior drops the salute first. Position is not a factor -- if it was, wouldn't the commanders of USCENTCOM or USSOCOM, both four-star generals, salute the bird-colonel commander of the 6 ARW, who's the base commander at MacDill?

I have three light colonels in my unit, and because of their grade, I salute them, even though I'm their squadron commander. (Well, two of them, but they're also retired O-5s and B-52 drivers, so they came by their leaves the hard way. Why not the third? She only wears a golf shirt.)

With all due respect, if you choose to salute a first lieutenant, that's your prerogative, but while the intent may be to give respect to someone whose neck is majorly stuck out for CAP, it trivializes the relationship rank and grade have in a paramilitary organization. If that contention doesn't hold water, this one will: It sends a message contrary to what cadets are taught, and what the real military does, which is what I said in my first couple of sentences. We should lead by example, not by 'do as I say, not as I do.'


CAP since 1984: Lt Col; former C/Lt Col; MO, MRO, MS, IO; former sq CC/CD/PA; group, wing, region PA, natl cmte mbr, nat'l staff member.
REAL LIFE: Working journalist in SPG, DTW (News), SRQ, PIT (Trib), 2D1, WVI, W22; editor, desk chief, designer, photog, columnist, reporter, graphics guy, visual editor, but not all at once. Now a communications manager for an international multisport venue.