Flight Suit Wear

[Ned]

A little off topic, but you CAN sign away some of your rights even in an employment situation.  For instance, you can agree to binding arbitration instead of a traditional lawsuit to settle disputes under an employment contract.

But, there are a number of rights that we won't let you sign away some important rights in an employment setting for "public policy reasons."  Rights like worker's comp, discharge because of race, etc.


In a non-employment situation (e.g. a volunteer with a non-profit like CAP), you can sign away even more rights.  Like the right to sue for simple negligence.  IF the agreement is a genuine arms-length "I get something and you get something" kind of thing.  Just see the releases on the various CAP activity application forms.


Now back to your topic . . .


Ned Lee
Former CAP Legal Officer

[Carl C]

Why do rated members get a flight suit to wear when not flying and and everyone else is in BDU's?  So basically, your better than everyone else if your a pilot, and you have a need to differentiate yourself from those around you?  (not you personally.)  What is an AE activity?  Would that be an Aerospace lesson to cadets?  So, the cadets are all in Blues or BDU's and you roll in wearing your bag.  Doesn't make sense.

As far as flight suits go, EVERYONE should be allowed to wear them.  Especially when I have seen hundreds of them sitting in DRMO's. 

"Rated" members get to wear flightsuits because they are rated...just like other aircrew, civil and military.
Why?  Because we are better.   Not in the personal sense but because we have spent the bucks (pilots) and did the work to achieve the rating.   Simple as that.   Want to wear the flightsuit?   Earn it.   Otherwise, BDU for you.
Which is exactly why some want to restrict us from wearing it...

[Carl C]

Looks like I got to this one a little late...

Is not wearing a flight suit in any CAP aircraft a safety hazard from any perspective?

NO.

[Carl C]

Ok....so if we limit the Bag to flight crew members, simple fix.  We start training everyone to be a crew member.  Break out the books, start studying, and participate in training activities.  PROBLEM SOLVED!  Everyone is now a rated crew member. 

If we did that, and everyone walked around in flight suits, I think some would be pissed as hell that their distinctive "trademarked" badge of "BETTERNESS" was now a common uniform.     That is the impression I get from reading some replies above. 

Wearing a flight suit is letting the world know "I am more than an ordinary CAP member, I am a pilot and better than everyone else".   

Am I wrong?  Maybe, but I know some look at it that way.   

Geezzz!  The only one harping on "betterness" is you.   Get over it already.

[Carl C]

Some might say the same about BDUs since (for seniors) they are almost exclusively worn by ground team members. 

Gonna have to explain that one to me. Most of the members in my unit wear BDUs, and only a few are GT qualified. Most of the members in my wing are in the same status. What does being GT qualified have to do with wearing BDU's?

No need to wear a "field" uniform if one is not "field" qualified. 

[Carl C]

In my wing I've only once or twice seen a senior member wearing BDUs or BBDUs who was not involved in the ground team program just as I've never seen someone in a flightsuit who wasn't an aircrew member.

That's not normal......

There's more to CAP then ES you know.

But the rest of it is just something for the kids to do until they get old enough for ES...   

[CASH172]

Carl C, you don't have to repost and criticize every single thing.  Your opinions are appreciated, but can you please limit the amount of posts. 

[mikeylikey]

"Rated" members get to wear flightsuits because they are rated...just like other aircrew, civil and military.
Why?  Because we are better.   Not in the personal sense but because we have spent the bucks (pilots) and did the work to achieve the rating.   Simple as that.   Want to wear the flightsuit?   Earn it.   Otherwise, BDU for you.
Which is exactly why some want to restrict us from wearing it...

Yikes.  There are "non-rated" aircrew members in both the military and civilian world that wear a flightsuit.  I do believe the AF has MANY non-rated guys and girls wearing flightsuits everday.  

Not to burst anyones ego bubble, but learning to fly is not that difficult.  At least I didn't think so.  One thing to consider, some people just do NOT have extra cash to drop on learning to fly.  Even today, the Community College's offering flight training programs are getting to be rather expensive.  

So in your world, if a person wants to wear the flight suit, they must PAY for the right.  OK.  I am wondering if you paid for your school, or did (perhaps, should I say) Mom and Dad??  

[afgeo4]

If someone is flying a CAP aircraft to get from point A to point B (and paying for it him/herself) what do you suggest they wear?

What do people wear when they're flying as passengers (CAP members)?

What do people wear when they're scanner trainees?

I understand that flightsuits exist for safety, not style, so then why restrict it for anyone or anything?

Just say "for flight activity only" and be done with it.

[afgeo4]

How often are we actually sued?

I would think we would hear about a large lawsuit against CAP. It seems that we do so much to prevent being sued, why not just sign away the right to sue for anything except for negligence on CAP's part. Make it a serve at your own risk deal.

Wait... how often are we sued or how often is it that we find out about us being sued? The two might yield different numbers.

Also, don't forget how many cases might be settled out of court.

[Eclipse]

If someone is flying a CAP aircraft to get from point A to point B (and paying for it him/herself) what do you suggest they wear?

A CAP uniform. 

What do people wear when they're flying as passengers (CAP members)?

A CAP uniform.

What do people wear when they're scanner trainees?

A CAP uniform.

I understand that flightsuits exist for safety, not style, so then why restrict it for anyone or anything?

Just say "for flight activity only" and be done with it.

That's basically what it says today.

[Carl C]

Carl C, you don't have to repost and criticize every single thing.  Your opinions are appreciated, but can you please limit the amount of posts. 

You have 116 to my 13, cadet....   Hardly reposting and criticizing "every single thing."

[stillamarine]

Carl C, you don't have to repost and criticize every single thing.  Your opinions are appreciated, but can you please limit the amount of posts. 

You have 116 to my 13, cadet....   Hardly reposting and criticizing "every single thing."

That cadet has also been a member for about 5 months longer than you and is active in many threads.

[Carl C]

"Rated" members get to wear flightsuits because they are rated...just like other aircrew, civil and military.
Why?  Because we are better.   Not in the personal sense but because we have spent the bucks (pilots) and did the work to achieve the rating.   Simple as that.   Want to wear the flightsuit?   Earn it.   Otherwise, BDU for you.
Which is exactly why some want to restrict us from wearing it...

Yikes.  There are "non-rated" aircrew members in both the military and civilian world that wear a flightsuit.  I do believe the AF has MANY non-rated guys and girls wearing flightsuits everday.  

Not to burst anyones ego bubble, but learning to fly is not that difficult.  At least I didn't think so.  One thing to consider, some people just do NOT have extra cash to drop on learning to fly.  Even today, the Community College's offering flight training programs are getting to be rather expensive.  

So in your world, if a person wants to wear the flight suit, they must PAY for the right.  OK.  I am wondering if you paid for your school, or did (perhaps, should I say) Mom and Dad??  

Absolutely correct.   Non-rated folks do indeed wear flightsuits.   They earn the right by learning an aviation related skill and being assigned to a flying organization.

No one said learning to fly was difficult but it does take a certain degree of motivation, dedication and effort.    You don't get a certificate just for showing up.  Besides, one doesn't need to be a pilot to be aircrew.   It doesn't take a lot of money to be a scanner or observer, now does it.

Correct again.  In my world one must pay for certain priviledge.   Doesn't need to be money...   One can pay in effort,  motivation and achievement.   If you want to wear a flightsuit...make the effort to be aircrew.   There are several non-certificated aircrew in my squadron.

By the way, I have paid my way for the last 40some years...including flight training and should I decide to invest in a flight suit, I'll pay for that as well.   A blue one.

[CASH172]

...Hardly reposting and criticizing "every single thing."

When I said "every single thing," I meant about how you used 5 posts to comment.  You are more than encouraged to comment and sometimes criticize opinions, at least by me.

[pixelwonk]

Enough.

[afgeo4]

"Rated" members get to wear flightsuits because they are rated...just like other aircrew, civil and military.
Why?  Because we are better.   Not in the personal sense but because we have spent the bucks (pilots) and did the work to achieve the rating.   Simple as that.   Want to wear the flightsuit?   Earn it.   Otherwise, BDU for you.
Which is exactly why some want to restrict us from wearing it...

Yikes.  There are "non-rated" aircrew members in both the military and civilian world that wear a flightsuit.  I do believe the AF has MANY non-rated guys and girls wearing flightsuits everday. 

Not to burst anyones ego bubble, but learning to fly is not that difficult.  At least I didn't think so.  One thing to consider, some people just do NOT have extra cash to drop on learning to fly.  Even today, the Community College's offering flight training programs are getting to be rather expensive. 

So in your world, if a person wants to wear the flight suit, they must PAY for the right.  OK.  I am wondering if you paid for your school, or did (perhaps, should I say) Mom and Dad?? 

Absolutely correct.   Non-rated folks do indeed wear flightsuits.   They earn the right by learning an aviation related skill and being assigned to a flying organization.

No one said learning to fly was difficult but it does take a certain degree of motivation, dedication and effort.    You don't get a certificate just for showing up.  Besides, one doesn't need to be a pilot to be aircrew.   It doesn't take a lot of money to be a scanner or observer, now does it.

Correct again.  In my world one must pay for certain priviledge.   Doesn't need to be money...   One can pay in effort,  motivation and achievement.   If you want to wear a flightsuit...make the effort to be aircrew.   There are several non-certificated aircrew in my squadron.

By the way, I have paid my way for the last 40some years...including flight training and should I decide to invest in a flight suit, I'll pay for that as well.   A blue one.

Carl, a flightsuit isn't a reward, it is a safety device and a uniform. Those who work so hard to become pilots get rewarded with the opportunity to control aircraft while in flight. In CAP they also get to wear wings devices.

[Carl C]

"Rated" members get to wear flightsuits because they are rated...just like other aircrew, civil and military.
Why?  Because we are better.   Not in the personal sense but because we have spent the bucks (pilots) and did the work to achieve the rating.   Simple as that.   Want to wear the flightsuit?   Earn it.   Otherwise, BDU for you.
Which is exactly why some want to restrict us from wearing it...

Yikes.  There are "non-rated" aircrew members in both the military and civilian world that wear a flightsuit.  I do believe the AF has MANY non-rated guys and girls wearing flightsuits everday. 

Not to burst anyones ego bubble, but learning to fly is not that difficult.  At least I didn't think so.  One thing to consider, some people just do NOT have extra cash to drop on learning to fly.  Even today, the Community College's offering flight training programs are getting to be rather expensive. 

So in your world, if a person wants to wear the flight suit, they must PAY for the right.  OK.  I am wondering if you paid for your school, or did (perhaps, should I say) Mom and Dad?? 

Absolutely correct.   Non-rated folks do indeed wear flightsuits.   They earn the right by learning an aviation related skill and being assigned to a flying organization.

No one said learning to fly was difficult but it does take a certain degree of motivation, dedication and effort.    You don't get a certificate just for showing up.  Besides, one doesn't need to be a pilot to be aircrew.   It doesn't take a lot of money to be a scanner or observer, now does it.

Correct again.  In my world one must pay for certain priviledge.   Doesn't need to be money...   One can pay in effort,  motivation and achievement.   If you want to wear a flightsuit...make the effort to be aircrew.   There are several non-certificated aircrew in my squadron.

By the way, I have paid my way for the last 40some years...including flight training and should I decide to invest in a flight suit, I'll pay for that as well.   A blue one.

Carl, a flightsuit isn't a reward, it is a safety device and a uniform. Those who work so hard to become pilots get rewarded with the opportunity to control aircraft while in flight. In CAP they also get to wear wings devices.

If you followed the string you would understand my response was in regard to one who takes issue with aircrew wearing flightsuits.   He seems to believe it is an undue status symbol and certain aircrew consider themselves "better" than the rank and file.   The poster even suggests flightsuits for eveyone. 
As far as I am concerned CAP can do away with flightsuits, BDU et al and all other special dress.   Plain old coveralls would work fine for all field activities.   "Golf" shirts and grey pants suffice for everything else.   CAP and I do not consider flightsuits to be a significant safety item or else they would be required...they are not.   What's left?
Flightsuits and BDU type uniforms are a draw.   They attract members.   They are, in fact, a reward of sorts.
In my opinion, field uniforms should be reserved for field qualified members.  BDU for ground teams and flightsuits for aircrew.   They should be authorized for all activities except formal or dress occasions.  I also don't care to argue the point.   
As for flightsuits, they are purpose built for a close cockpit working environment.   That is the only real advantage over BDUs - which are also purpose built.   Not all aircrew wear wings or are pilots and get the "reward" of controlling an aircraft.  Besides, most of us (pilots) do the majority of our flying outside of CAP.
Question:   In most organizations having both ground and flight operations, what do the respective teams or crews wear?   Question:   In most organizations primarily organized around flight activities, what do non-flying employees wear?   What do flying employees wear?   As a rule, aircrew wear flightsuits if they wear a uniform at all.   Everyone else wears something else.   Why is that?

[SarDragon]

If you followed the string you would understand my response was in regard to one who takes issue with aircrew wearing flightsuits.   He seems to believe it is an undue status symbol and certain aircrew consider themselves "better" than the rank and file.   The poster even suggests flightsuits for eveyone. 
As far as I am concerned CAP can do away with flightsuits, BDU et al and all other special dress.   Plain old coveralls would work fine for all field activities.   "Golf" shirts and grey pants suffice for everything else.   CAP and I do not consider flightsuits to be a significant safety item or else they would be required...they are not.   What's left?
Flightsuits and BDU type uniforms are a draw.   They attract members.   They are, in fact, a reward of sorts.
In my opinion, field uniforms should be reserved for field qualified members.  BDU for ground teams and flightsuits for aircrew.    They should be authorized for all activities except formal or dress occasions.  I also don't care to argue the point.   
As for flightsuits, they are purpose built for a close cockpit working environment.   That is the only real advantage over BDUs - which are also purpose built.   Not all aircrew wear wings or are pilots and get the "reward" of controlling an aircraft.  Besides, most of us (pilots) do the majority of our flying outside of CAP.
Question:   In most organizations having both ground and flight operations, what do the respective teams or crews wear?   Question:   In most organizations primarily organized around flight activities, what do non-flying employees wear?   What do flying employees wear?   As a rule, aircrew wear flightsuits if they wear a uniform at all.   Everyone else wears something else.   Why is that?

To address the first highlighted area - what would you have the cadets wear when doing "dirty" activities?

To address the second - Nomex flight suits are expensive, and are not suited for many of the "dirty" activities that "everyone else" does. It is not a sturdy piece of clothing, is uncomfortable as often as not, and lacks the functionality that other clothing has (like BDUs).

[BuckeyeDEJ]

...a flightsuit isn't a reward, it is a safety device and a uniform. Those who work so hard to become pilots get rewarded with the opportunity to control aircraft while in flight. In CAP they also get to wear wings devices.

So THAT's why they call it Civil AIR Patrol. Here I was beginning to think, after reading all this (at least as much as I could before I thought it was inane), that this was the Civil Ground Patrol or maybe the Civil Chair Patrol, judging by the amount of hand-wringing going on around here.

But seriously... seems to me it's more like this...
Groundpounders = BDU
Aircrews = Flight suits

Here in Florida, there's a kibash on wearing flight suits unless you're actually tethered to an airplane. Rumor is that it's thanks to a couple of yahoos wearing flight suits to impress chicks or something like that -- WHICH IS AGAINST REGULATION ANYWAY.

The flight suit is a great PR machine for us, as long as it's used correctly and worn correctly. Unfortunately, thanks to misuse, the privilege was revoked, so it's either the BDU (like pilots wear that) or the dorky golf shirts, which make us look like a really tight-knit flying club.

The flight suit is a special duty uniform that augments the wardrobe we all should have, which includes both blues and the BDU. If you fly (and I do), you wear the flight suit.

Enough of this "two Civil Air Patrols" garbage -- aviators have their own fraternity, but they're no different (and they don't see themselves differently) than those who think they're on the outside looking in and believe the insiders think they're "better than you." We all joined CAP, and stay in CAP, for the same reasons and for the same missions, and if you didn't, you're a one-dimensional member to begin with, so get with it.