Non-Doctor & Non-Nurse Medical Personnel

[PHall]

I know that CAP doesn't do a lot of   any agumentation mission for the USAF but this is a mission that could make use of CAP HSO's.

The USCGAux HSO's do this mission regularly for the USCG.

I think its something CAP could/should explore with the USAF.

FTFY

If you care to check the regs you'll see that there's not even a provision for CAP members to augment the USAF at all.

[lordmonar]

I know that CAP doesn't do a lot of   any agumentation mission for the USAF but this is a mission that could make use of CAP HSO's.

The USCGAux HSO's do this mission regularly for the USCG.

I think its something CAP could/should explore with the USAF.

FTFY

If you care to check the regs you'll see that there's not even a provision for CAP members to augment the USAF at all.

Depends on what you mean my augment.

I also point out that Chaplains are specifically allowed to augment USAF chaplains.

[PHall]

I know that CAP doesn't do a lot of   any agumentation mission for the USAF but this is a mission that could make use of CAP HSO's.

The USCGAux HSO's do this mission regularly for the USCG.

I think its something CAP could/should explore with the USAF.

FTFY

If you care to check the regs you'll see that there's not even a provision for CAP members to augment the USAF at all.

Depends on what you mean my augment.

I also point out that Chaplains are specifically allowed to augment USAF chaplains.

They're the only ones and IIRC that was originated by the Air Force Chaplains.

[LTC Don]

I know that CAP doesn't do a lot of   any agumentation mission for the USAF but this is a mission that could make use of CAP HSO's.

The USCGAux HSO's do this mission regularly for the USCG.

I think its something CAP could/should explore with the USAF.

FTFY

If you care to check the regs you'll see that there's not even a provision for CAP members to augment the USAF at all.

Perhaps not in the regs, but within Federal Law, there is certainly the foundation ---

10 US Code 9442

"(b) Use by Air Force.—
(1) The Secretary of the Air Force may use the services of the Civil Air Patrol to fulfill the noncombat programs and missions of the Department of the Air Force."

And then within 36 US Code, 40302 --

"(5) To assist the Department of the Air Force in fulfilling its noncombat programs and missions."

The statements are ambiguous on purpose to allow CAP and the USAF to define what can be performed legally. It's just a matter of the parties sitting down at the table and developing the framework to make "it" work. This means we need RNs and MDs on national staff to drive these types of initiatives, not pilots who mean well but don't know the lingo or the walk.

On a more local and realistic front, there is plenty of opportunity for all members, but especially CAP medical staff to develop relationships with their state and local health departments to be integrated into plans such as Mass Prophylaxis, or Point of Dispensing, the medical version of Point of Distribution.

To say there isn't anything for CAP medical staff to do is absurd.

[Eclipse]

To say there isn't anything for CAP medical staff to do is absurd correct.

Fixed that for you. This is a situation that NHQ and its lawyers have crafted over the course
of decades, likely in either direct response to, or in anticipation of, issues caused by the members.
I bet we all have at least one story.

That's not likely to change considering it doesn't need to.  CAP does not have the number of medical
personnel to have anything but an anecdotal impact in that regard, and again, in crisis, those
professionals can respond more quickly and nimby on their own. Why would CAP bother to get in the way?

On a more local and realistic front, there is plenty of opportunity for all members, but especially CAP medical staff to develop relationships with their state and local health departments to be integrated into plans such as Mass Prophylaxis, or Point of Dispensing, the medical version of Point of Distribution.

Already being done, does not require medical training, and within the confines of existing regulations, CAP
HSOs would not be allowed to provide medical services during a mission anyway.  Also, fact of the matter is that many
agencies that run PODs need assistance, but they have no interest in engaging people as CAP members when they
can simply engage volunteers directly, which is by far their preference.

Few response plans that would include a POD for medical reasons would tolerate CAP's response inertia.
3/4 of the affected population would already be eating brains by the time a mission number was issued.

Seriously, in an organization where regulations like 900-2 are ignored, do you think NHQ would want to get
involved in the minefield of medical qualification and certification? 

[Storm Chaser]

This means we need RNs and MDs on national staff to drive these types of initiatives, not pilots who mean well but don't know the lingo or the walk.

While I don't disagree with some of your post, health professionals are represented in the National staff through the Chief of CAP Health Service, who reports to the National Commander. Furthermore, the vast majority of Air Force leadership are pilots, so your comment about "pilots who mean well but don't know the lingo or the walk" is not accurate.

[SARDOC]

You could get rid of the EMT badge today and not hurt my feelings.

I'm a Paramedic, and I second this sentiment.  The CAP should only represent CAP achievements. 

[SARDOC]

Excuse the ignorance in this subject, but would a CNA have enough knowledge to qualify as a paramedic, or is that different training altogether? If supertiger is a CNA looking for bling, could he possibly qualify as a medic and be part of a ground team?

CNA doesn't come anywhere close to Paramedic level skills. 

[ProdigalJim]

Yup. Right on both posts.

[AirAux]

Could one use medical personnel if/when transporting organs or medical supplies/equipment during disasters or mercy missions?

[Al Sayre]

Not sure why you'd need them.  Generally, the transport container is a sealed box or cooler, you just load it on the plane and go.  There was some discussion at the Command Council Meeting about CAP participating in Angel Flights etc. I can see where it might be nice to have someone on board with medical knowledge for those.

[ProdigalJim]

I can see where it might be nice to have someone on board with medical knowledge for those.

...with medical knowledge, PLUS regulations defining the scope of practice and a legal framework covering the provider. I'm a paramedic; when I deliver medical care, I'm following protocols defined and approved by my fire department's medical director and I am, in legal terms, acting on his behalf and riding along on his license. If I treat patients in any other context (other than Good Samaritan) I'm violating the law and practicing medicine without a license.

I'm sure as heck not going to do that in CAP under the present system.

[AirAux]

The question is, if pilots/flight crew can wear flightsuits, can medical personnel wear scrubs?  If so, which color and embroidered, plastic, sewn on, or metal bling?  Do we wear OR hats, jungle caps, or Flight caps?  IIRC in the Army, we wore whites with Flight caps (or overseas caps or ---- caps).  I think we are onto something here.  I go for blue scrubs and not woodland..  White shoes with crepe soles or potato loafers??   

[Eclipse]

The question is, if pilots/flight crew can wear flightsuits, can medical personnel wear scrubs?  If so, which color and embroidered, plastic, sewn on, or metal bling?  Do we wear OR hats, jungle caps, or Flight caps?  IIRC in the Army, we wore whites with Flight caps (or overseas caps or ---- caps).  I think we are onto something here.  I go for blue scrubs and not woodland..  White shoes with crepe soles or potato loafers??

Boehner's Colorful Commentary on Tax Cuts

[LSThiker]

The question is, if pilots/flight crew can wear flightsuits, can medical personnel wear scrubs?  If so, which color and embroidered, plastic, sewn on, or metal bling?  Do we wear OR hats, jungle caps, or Flight caps?  IIRC in the Army, we wore whites with Flight caps (or overseas caps or ---- caps).  I think we are onto something here.  I go for blue scrubs and not woodland..  White shoes with crepe soles or potato loafers??

And I already own a few pairs from my last deployment

[sarmed1]

Bob-How is anyone in CAP not doing the same thing.  If no one here volunteered to fly/ground pound/run mission base or do comms there would be plenty of awesome jobs out there for everyone (let alone the world of fire and ems, yes there are plenty of places that there are only volunteers)  So I am not very convinced that anyone in CAP volunteering their medical skills and abilities to support the AF would be any weirder than it is now.  Nor do I think that the average AF reserve or NG medical service member would have much butt hurt about CAP folks coming in and doing the job.  Funny thing about the reserve system, there is this thing called points only; if they dont have the money to pay you, they put you on that status, just as obligated to show up and play (dont worry it will count when you retire and boost your pay then).  So if the choice would be get AF guys to come in for free or CAP come in for free, I as an AF guy would rather stay home and go to my real job than come in and take a paycheck hit and let CAP come volunteer.

Ranks and uniforms.  I have stood shoulder to shoulder with RN's and Doc's that are 04-06 doing pretty much grunt work; in the medical field and especially in the reserve system it is not too different than CAP in the rank to work disparity (in garrison maybe more "normal", but in the "deployed/tasked" concept its more CAP-esque)  So having a CAP LTC who is an RN giving shots or filling out a questionaire wouldnt be that abnormal to the average military person.  For the types of "roles" that CAP personnel would/could be called upon to support, blues would be appropriate, it would not likely be "field" conditions.   Sine they see slacks and polos on the services folks, greys and a polo would also not be out of place. (for those that dont military style uniform it)  They only "confusion" would be "non degree" oriented medical folks as officers. (ie EMT types) or flight officers.  No I dont have a really good solution for that.  Maybe down the road in this type of scenario, if you want to be a primary HSO type as a non RN or higher (or other commissionable specialty), you have to choose to be a CAP NCO, (once that path is open to non prior service members)

UCMJ-The military (especially as I have seen) uses plenty of civilain employees and contractors in the medical fields state side.  NO they are also not subject to UCMJ, but they still have to follow the rules, and follow the "orders" of the military personnel above them (in regards to the work place rules, higher rated GS employees also oversee and direct military members)

As far a "outside" the current rules.  Yes but (as we have seen) the simple stroke of a pen (or 2) can change the CAP rule book pretty easily.   An interm change letter allowing CAP medical personnel to provide medical support to CAP and military personnel only under auspice of a USAF authorized mission number is pretty much all that would take to satisfy the letter of the reg.

Yes there would have to be "someone" that fills in the details, ie what kind of medical personnel, RN's , doc, PA's, EMT's etc etc, and how they are credentialed and tracked to keep the USAF happy, who gives that approval authority for internal or external support, where equipment comes from etc, etc.  There are likely many other "issues" that would need to be addressed, but at least generally it would solve the what to do with CAP medical personnel and the "uselessness" of their skill sets in regard to the things CAP does internally or externally for the USAF or other federal agencies.

mk

[Eclipse]

We're pretty much in agreement here - the point about uniforms and grade was that the
last time NHQ tried to make augmentation work (i.e. VSAF), there were so many rules and
policies that the situation was all but unworkable, and rather then just allow members to show up
in their normal uniforms, even the normal golf shirt, they created an entire new uniform
to insure no one might accidentally show courtesies to someone in CAP.

The primary point is that it's wholly unnecessary - there's just no reason for these medical professionals
to encumber themselves with CAP limitations, or have to wait for CAP to change its mind on the idea.

If there's a legit need for medical volunteers, go volunteer.  And if there was a legit need for any
CAP augmentation, 1AF would already be asking. We're all one team, remember?

As far a "outside" the current rules.  Yes but (as we have seen) the simple stroke of a pen (or 2) can change the CAP rule book pretty easily.   An interm change letter allowing CAP medical personnel to provide medical support to CAP and military personnel only under auspice of a USAF authorized mission number is pretty much all that would take to satisfy the letter of the reg.

While this is technically correct, we both know that pen is milled out of a piece of a neutron star.

And has been mentioned here, the protocols and internal procedures required by many of the members to even consider
exercising their skills are non-trivial as well, though it probably wouldn't surprise anyone if NHQ cranked up a graviton
beam and stroked the neutron pen, only to wait 2-5 years writing the protocols and processes.

[PA Guy]

Bob-How is anyone in CAP not doing the same thing.  If no one here volunteered to fly/ground pound/run mission base or do comms there would be plenty of awesome jobs out there for everyone (let alone the world of fire and ems, yes there are plenty of places that there are only volunteers)  So I am not very convinced that anyone in CAP volunteering their medical skills and abilities to support the AF would be any weirder than it is now.  Nor do I think that the average AF reserve or NG medical service member would have much butt hurt about CAP folks coming in and doing the job.  Funny thing about the reserve system, there is this thing called points only; if they dont have the money to pay you, they put you on that status, just as obligated to show up and play (dont worry it will count when you retire and boost your pay then).  So if the choice would be get AF guys to come in for free or CAP come in for free, I as an AF guy would rather stay home and go to my real job than come in and take a paycheck hit and let CAP come volunteer.

Ranks and uniforms.  I have stood shoulder to shoulder with RN's and Doc's that are 04-06 doing pretty much grunt work; in the medical field and especially in the reserve system it is not too different than CAP in the rank to work disparity (in garrison maybe more "normal", but in the "deployed/tasked" concept its more CAP-esque)  So having a CAP LTC who is an RN giving shots or filling out a questionaire wouldnt be that abnormal to the average military person.  For the types of "roles" that CAP personnel would/could be called upon to support, blues would be appropriate, it would not likely be "field" conditions.   Sine they see slacks and polos on the services folks, greys and a polo would also not be out of place. (for those that dont military style uniform it)  They only "confusion" would be "non degree" oriented medical folks as officers. (ie EMT types) or flight officers.  No I dont have a really good solution for that.  Maybe down the road in this type of scenario, if you want to be a primary HSO type as a non RN or higher (or other commissionable specialty), you have to choose to be a CAP NCO, (once that path is open to non prior service members)

UCMJ-The military (especially as I have seen) uses plenty of civilain employees and contractors in the medical fields state side.  NO they are also not subject to UCMJ, but they still have to follow the rules, and follow the "orders" of the military personnel above them (in regards to the work place rules, higher rated GS employees also oversee and direct military members)

As far a "outside" the current rules.  Yes but (as we have seen) the simple stroke of a pen (or 2) can change the CAP rule book pretty easily.   An interm change letter allowing CAP medical personnel to provide medical support to CAP and military personnel only under auspice of a USAF authorized mission number is pretty much all that would take to satisfy the letter of the reg.

Yes there would have to be "someone" that fills in the details, ie what kind of medical personnel, RN's , doc, PA's, EMT's etc etc, and how they are credentialed and tracked to keep the USAF happy, who gives that approval authority for internal or external support, where equipment comes from etc, etc.  There are likely many other "issues" that would need to be addressed, but at least generally it would solve the what to do with CAP medical personnel and the "uselessness" of their skill sets in regard to the things CAP does internally or externally for the USAF or other federal agencies.

mk

:clap:  :clap:  :clap:  :clap:

Having augmented for the CG Aux. the CG did handstands when I came in because it meant they could see more patients that day or the CG PA could catch up on flight time, paperwork or take a day off. My credentialing and clinic privileges were taken care of by the CG not the AUX. It was a win win all around.

Would I be willing to do the same for CAP and AF? Frankly, I don't know, I joined CAP for other reasons. Most of the objections raised here could be overcome fairly easily and others are just groundless. It is all about the will of the AF and at this time they would rather hire me as a civilian contractor than have me augment for free.

[sarmed1]

We're pretty much in agreement here - the point about uniforms and grade was that the
last time NHQ tried to make augmentation work (i.e. VSAF), there were so many rules and
policies that the situation was all but unworkable, and rather then just allow members to show up
in their normal uniforms, even the normal golf shirt, they created an entire new uniform
to insure no one might accidentally show courtesies to someone in CAP.

I never understood that one entirely either.  Even somewhat buying into the whole "worry" about Capt Bag-o-Donuts, who thinks he still is ok in his BDU's while trolling for salutes..... why they couldnt just go with greys an a polo I dont understand; they needed a whole new & different uniform?!

....though it probably wouldn't surprise anyone if NHQ cranked up a graviton
beam and stroked the neutron pen, only to wait 2-5 years writing the protocols and processes...

the list of things on this list from the past is long and distinguished... ABU's, 39-1, NCO program; come to mind....

The speed of such pen is directly proportional to who is asking for it.  Stars and $$ move the pen a little more than wishing and wanting I think.

Honestly the "augment" portion of the equation was where the "benefit" to the AF would be for taking on the mantle of responsibility/liability to make the medical thing work for CAP yet keep the corporate lawyers happy.  CAP HSO's have  a way that they can do the medical things that CAP supposedly "recruits" them for (and in many cases really want to do), CAP can say; look what we can offer (yet not have to be worried about being "sued" if something bad happens) the AF has a ready pool of cleared/vetted/credentialed extra "free" help when they need it.

Reality for the AF side.  Its not like they are going to call for a "deployment" of a whole "hospital" of CAP people.  But I have seen (at least on the reserve side) needs for some specific specialties that they may otherwise have to pay for.  That may be able to come in for a drill weekend here or there to help with "overload".  Dental (I know there are likely not that many dentists wandering around CAP) is one that comes up fairly often.  Mental health is another (docs or other MH professionals).  During large scale out processing or in-processing deployments (especially if the medical unit is one of those coming/going) some one working those mobility lines; just a few off the top of my head.  Who knows maybe its one of those things that if it was known to be available it might actually get used.

mk

[Private Investigator]

Could one use medical personnel if/when transporting organs or medical supplies/equipment during disasters or mercy missions?

Why? It is only cargo.