Just sent my transcript to NHQ for SOS approval

[Mitchell 1969]

On a somewhat related note:

CAP Officer Course has been evaluated by ACE and recommended for college credit. This is a serious no-joke benefit, worth, conceivably, from $200 to $1500 or better depending on school and applicability to one's major. From the ACE site:

<<Credit Recommendation: In the lower-division baccalaureate/associate degree category, 2 semester hours in communication skills and 1 in leadership. In the upper-division baccalaureate degree category, 2 semester hours in military history (10/07)(10/07).>>

Now, the bad news. ACE evaluates and recommends based on what they see at the time. So, this recommendation only applies to people who took Course 13 from  January 2002, when they evaluated it, to the present.

Also, the CAP IG Course has an ACE credit evaluation, for courses taken June 2012 to the present:

<<Credit Recommendation: In the upper-division baccalaureate degree category, 3 semester hours in organizational leadership (10/12)(10/12).>>

(Several other CAP courses were listed, particularly ES and Public Affairs, either with no credit, or with expired dates, not applicable to new enrollees, but possibly available to people who completed the courses earlier).

[Edited to add url for ACE military search page. Easiest way to find CAP courses was to just search on "patrol." Searching on "Squadron" or "Command" got a lot of irrelevant results. Be careful of the start and end dates, make sure they match yours].

http://www2.acenet.edu/militaryguide/CourseSearch.cfm

[RiverAux]

Even though I'm in a situation where I could easily take a week off for RSC (without using any of my paid leave) I have refused to do it.  The primary reason is that the course is only given at one site (and that site never changes) and would require two days of driving each way  (or expensive flying and rental car) for me to get to.  I just don't like CAP that much to want to do that.

And realistically, I'm doing pretty minimal CAP work at the moment and if our Wing/Region has upped their scrutiny of field grade promotions as has been represented here as being the case in some locations, there is a decent chance that I wouldn't get promoted anyway.  Not sore about that and it probably would be the right call anyway. 

That being said, if they would ever move the RSC around to where it would be within a reasonable distance, I probably would go. 

[kwe1009]

Not all of us are kollij gradyooits, and yet we're punished, in a way, from being able to substitute a week of courses with a distance learning opportunity.

It's another place CAP is trying to emulate the military model, but ultimately defeats the very purpose set forth.

To be fair, in this case, the issue is legitimately out of CAP's hands, though one could certainly speculate as to how hard NHQ "pressed"
when the changes were made.

I'd be willing to bet a significant portion of the issue was members in the military taking PME they would not otherwise be
qualified for, which resulted (based on anecdotal comments here), in weird transcripts, especially for NCOs, so rather then
address on a per-member basis, they just closed the door for all.

And by "significant", I mean "somebody noticed a couple", since overall the number of members who do SOS is relatively small.

I think the issue with SOS is a concern by Air University over accreditation.  If they allow people without degrees to attend this class it may have a negative impact on it.  This is pure speculation on my part but does make sense.  I am also an Air Force SNCO and my completion of SOS does not appear anywhere in my records other than an EPR (annual evaluation) that has a line about me completing it.  So as far as the Air Force is concerned, I never took it.  That kind of stinks too.

As for other options for people to get over the RSC/NSC hump, I completely agree that something needs to be done.  In this age of technology it would not be too difficult to do the class remotely, via video conference perhaps spread out over a few weeks.  I know that you lose some of the interaction that you get in a face-to-face environment but the people who won't/can't go to RSC in person aren't getting the interaction anyway and they aren't getting the training.

How could accreditation be an issue for SOS?

Institutions can give whatever university credit they want for SOS (or no credit). But SOS has been evaluated for credit by ACE (American Council on Education). The current (since 2004) version of the course is recommended for 6 upper division undergraduate units, i.e. toward a bachelors degree.

So - not only does there appear to be no accreditation issue, but SOS could actually help somebody in their quest for a bachelors degree. Why NOT let non-degreed CAP people take it? Unless...we somehow ended up bouncing into a gatekeeper along the way. "Air Force officers taking SOS already have bachelor degrees. Therefore, CAP officers "need" bachelor degrees to take SOS." (Does anybody really know why this limitation was imposed?)

If common-sense doesn't work, how about an alternative non-resident course? Let CAP people take the NCO course (I'm pretty sure they don't require a degree for that).

Or...simply copy either the NCO course or SOS. Label the copy "CAP Advanced Officer Course" and open it to anyone who has completed AFIDL 13 (or ECI 7C or whatever the latest permutation might be), or to anyone eligible for RSC.

As I stated, this was "pure speculation on my part."  Schools are free to give however many credits they choose for SOS or any other military course but most generally follow ACE suggestion or a lower amount of credits.  If ACE doesn't have a suggested credit number then schools generally don't accept the course at all.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I thought SOS was 3 graduate level hours?

[Mitchell 1969]

I thought SOS was 3 graduate level hours?

Well, I've provided the cite from and url for the ACE recommendation that shows it as 5 6 undergrad. Feel free to post your cite for what you thought it was, I guess.


[Edited to correct typo, 5 units should be 6]

[THRAWN]

This is the latest info listed on the ACE site. The evalperiod expired in March, so there may be newer info available from AU.

AF-2203-0056 v3
Title:   SQUADRON OFFICER SCHOOL DISTRIBUTED LEARNING
(Squadron Officer Distributed Learning)
Course Number:   28.
Location:   Air University, Maxwell AFB, AL.
Length:   Maximum, 78 weeks.
Exhibit Dates:   11/04–3/16.

Learning Outcomes: Upon completion of the course, the student will demonstrate understanding of the historical importance of the profession of arms; interpersonal and communication skills useful for directing military units of increasing complexity and size; mastery of key leadership concepts, including team building, situational leadership, leadership styles, and an awareness of when various styles are appropriate; and proficiency in communication theory and skill, including briefing, researching, writing, and listening skills.

Instruction: Nonresident students complete their work and their assignments through online delivery. This school is the first of three major schools for Air Force officers as they pursue their professional military careers. The school stresses military organization, leadership, management, and communication. Approaches to subject mastery include readings and computer simulations. Emphasis is placed on knowledge acquisition and the development of operational skills in four major areas: officership, force employment, leadership, and communication skills.

Credit Recommendation: In the upper-division baccalaureate degree category, 3 semester hours in managerial communications and 3 in national security studies and military strategy (3/06)(3/06).

[Майор Хаткевич]

I thought SOS was 3 graduate level hours?

Well, I've provided the cite from and url for the ACE recommendation that shows it as 5 undergrad. Feel free to post your cite for what you thought it was, I guess.

It doesn't really matter to me, not planning on going for a Masters or higher at any point, but it was for specific schools, and I'm not sure if it applies to DL:

   
• 
        

Some colleges and universities recognize Squadron Officer School graduates with graduate-level transfer credits. Some of these programs include:


American Military University and American Public University allow three semester hours of transfer credits to SOS graduates to be applied for a graduate degree.[5]
Central Michigan University allows for three semester hours of transfer credit to be applied by SOS graduates to a graduate degree.[6]
University of Oklahoma allows for three semester hours of transfer credit to be applied by SOS in-residence graduates to a graduate degree.[7]

[Mitchell 1969]

I thought SOS was 3 graduate level hours?

Well, I've provided the cite from and url for the ACE recommendation that shows it as 5 undergrad. Feel free to post your cite for what you thought it was, I guess.

It doesn't really matter to me, not planning on going for a Masters or higher at any point, but it was for specific schools, and I'm not sure if it applies to DL:

   
• 
        

Some colleges and universities recognize Squadron Officer School graduates with graduate-level transfer credits. Some of these programs include:


American Military University and American Public University allow three semester hours of transfer credits to SOS graduates to be applied for a graduate degree.[5]
Central Michigan University allows for three semester hours of transfer credit to be applied by SOS graduates to a graduate degree.[6]
University of Oklahoma allows for three semester hours of transfer credit to be applied by SOS in-residence graduates to a graduate degree.[7]

Ah, I see the problem now. Sort of apples and oranges.

ACE site provides THEIR evaluation and credit recommendation, which is widely (but not universally) accepted. It's 6 undergrad units.

Meanwhile, individual schools are free to grant their own evaluations, which can be for graduate or undergrad credit - whatever they want, how much they want.

One problem with graduate credit is that many schools limit how much you can bring in.

I'd be curious to see credit recommendations for RCLS, or for earning Mitchell, Spaatz etc., completing IACE, obtaining Observer rating, logistics master level, etc.  But, credit evaluations aren't easy and aren't cheap.

[Майор Хаткевич]

My main goal is to accomplish Lvl4. Any credit at this point towards a Bachelors is a waste for me, and anything above that isn't in the works, at least now.

That said, a 2-3 weekend, RSC would be great, as it would allow people who can't take a whole week off to work the program. It would probably need to be held within certain geographical areas much smaller than region, due to travel issues, but that's the only way to work it.

The other option, as mentioned, is doing most of the work load as individual self study, with a 2-3 day "in face" part after the fact.

[Eclipse]

So under the "one more click" policy, you've completed Level III and are eligible for Major, correct?

Which then puts you into the new program which would require Level V for Lt Col, including NSC?
So SOS will be the PME for RSC or NSC?

I didn't think you could PME out of NSC.

[Майор Хаткевич]

So under the "one more click" policy, you've completed Level III and are eligible for Major, correct?

Which then puts you into the new program which would require Level V for Lt Col, including NSC?
So SOS will be the PME for RSC or NSC?

I didn't think you could PME out of NSC.

Yes, I'm submitting my paperwork for Major tomorrow.

d. Level IV, Command and Staff. This level concentrates on members desiring to become leaders in CAP. Every wing and region commander, and those members being groomed to replace them, should complete Level IV. CAP requires members to complete Region Staff College (RSC) at this level. Members unable to attend a region staff college may complete the USAF Squadron Officer School (SOS) by correspondence or any of the Professional Military Education (PME) equivalents in Attachment 2. Chapter 6 gives the specific details of the Level IV program.


e. Level V, Executive. Those performing duty as commanders or staff officers train at this level. This level concentrates on advanced leadership and management subjects. To complete this level, members attend the National Staff College (NSC). Members unable to attend the college may elect to complete the USAF Air Command and Staff College (ACSC) by correspondence or any of the PME equivalents in Attachment 2. Chapter 7 gives the specific details of the Level V program

[THRAWN]

My main goal is to accomplish Lvl4. Any credit at this point towards a Bachelors is a waste for me, and anything above that isn't in the works, at least now.

That said, a 2-3 weekend, RSC would be great, as it would allow people who can't take a whole week off to work the program. It would probably need to be held within certain geographical areas much smaller than region, due to travel issues, but that's the only way to work it.

The other option, as mentioned, is doing most of the work load as individual self study, with a 2-3 day "in face" part after the fact.

The problem with the abbreviated face time is that it is still face time. Still need travel dollars, still need billeting, still need the required number and types of uniforms. There should be a rotation like the National SAR School does. Every year the RSC is in a different wing, every year the NSC is in a different region.

[Eclipse]

So under the "one more click" policy, you've completed Level III and are eligible for Major, correct?

Which then puts you into the new program which would require Level V for Lt Col, including NSC?
So SOS will be the PME for RSC or NSC?

I didn't think you could PME out of NSC.

Yes, I'm submitting my paperwork for Major tomorrow.

((*snipped*))

Got it - was just reviewing the 24's again - they really didn't change except for the TIG and now LV being required for Lt Col.

[THRAWN]

So under the "one more click" policy, you've completed Level III and are eligible for Major, correct?

Which then puts you into the new program which would require Level V for Lt Col, including NSC?
So SOS will be the PME for RSC or NSC?

I didn't think you could PME out of NSC.

Sure can. There is a long chart showing PME-PD equivalents.

EDIT: Was typing this as Capt H was replying...

[MHC5096]

Not all of us are kollij gradyooits, and yet we're punished, in a way, from being able to substitute a week of courses with a distance learning opportunity.

It's another place CAP is trying to emulate the military model, but ultimately defeats the very purpose set forth.

To be fair, in this case, the issue is legitimately out of CAP's hands, though one could certainly speculate as to how hard NHQ "pressed"
when the changes were made.

I'd be willing to bet a significant portion of the issue was members in the military taking PME they would not otherwise be
qualified for, which resulted (based on anecdotal comments here), in weird transcripts, especially for NCOs, so rather then
address on a per-member basis, they just closed the door for all.

And by "significant", I mean "somebody noticed a couple", since overall the number of members who do SOS is relatively small.

Guilty here! I was one of those members who had completed SOS, ACSC and AWC before attending the Senior NCO Academy. It made for some interesting conversations. Being in an AWC study group with 5 Air National Guard O-5s as an E-6 was also interesting.