Has CAP service ever been a factor in a political campaign?

[RiverAux]

As the very, very, very long presidential campaign has gone on I've often wondered whether or not candidates for elective office at any level have included their current or prior CAP service as part of their official biographies or campaign literature and whether or not it helped or hurt their campaign.

Well, my news alert caught this blog http://www.crosscut.com/blog/mossback/17550/When+Burner+was+Palin/ that discusses a 2006 Congressional candiate that included a photo of herself as a CAP cadet in her campaign literature and apparently was critisized by her opponents for making it seem like she was a veteran of some sort.  The candidate, Darcy Burner, is apparently a former Spaatz cadet and was national cadet of the year in 1989. 

While those aren't accomplishments to sneeze at, I'm not sure I would include such youth accomplishments in my campaign literature, though its not uncommon to hear of candidates being former Eagle Scouts. 

I was intrigued to see an interview (linked from the blog) done with Burner at the time in which she was quoted as saying:

I had some incredible opportunities as a Cadet that went far beyond what I (or anyone) would get at that age.

I was the executive officer of the Nebraska wing, which, as far as I know is an unprecedented thing, to have a Cadet fill a wing staff command position.

The only place I have heard of "Executive Officer" being used in association with CAP is at some wing cadet encampments.  I suppose having a cadet fill that position isn't totally outside the realm of possibility, though would definetely be unusual.  I can only assume that she didn't mean Wing Vice Commander.   

[DC]

As the very, very, very long presidential campaign has gone on I've often wondered whether or not candidates for elective office at any level have included their current or prior CAP service as part of their official biographies or campaign literature and whether or not it helped or hurt their campaign.

Well, my news alert caught this blog http://www.crosscut.com/blog/mossback/17550/When+Burner+was+Palin/ that discusses a 2006 Congressional candiate that included a photo of herself as a CAP cadet in her campaign literature and apparently was critisized by her opponents for making it seem like she was a veteran of some sort.  The candidate, Darcy Burner, is apparently a former Spaatz cadet and was national cadet of the year in 1989. 

While those aren't accomplishments to sneeze at, I'm not sure I would include such youth accomplishments in my campaign literature, though its not uncommon to hear of candidates being former Eagle Scouts. 

I was intrigued to see an interview (linked from the blog) done with Burner at the time in which she was quoted as saying:

I had some incredible opportunities as a Cadet that went far beyond what I (or anyone) would get at that age.

I was the executive officer of the Nebraska wing, which, as far as I know is an unprecedented thing, to have a Cadet fill a wing staff command position.

The only place I have heard of "Executive Officer" being used in association with CAP is at some wing cadet encampments.  I suppose having a cadet fill that position isn't totally outside the realm of possibility, though would definetely be unusual.  I can only assume that she didn't mean Wing Vice Commander.   

It would depend on what the bio was for. If I were running for an office, probably not. Everyone knows what an Eagle Scout is, and what it entails, whereas very few people have any idea what a Spaatz Cadet is. To put that there would necessitate and additional explaination...

Executive officer is a squadron level cadet position, an assistant to the Cadet Commander that manages the support staff. It is also often used at Encampments to do the same thing. I have never heard of it being used on Wing level, but I don't see why it could not be used....

[Major Carrales]

You know, I am proud of my service in CAP.  I don't mind who knows, but I would mind if it was being made to be "veteran" service. 

I do not like nor will condone CAP service being represented as something it is not.  As I am fond of saying, "be more proud of what you are than ashamed of what you are not."

I would, however, like to see more people regarding CAP SERVICE highly for what it is, not what it is not.

[Capt Rivera]

people know what eagle scouts are because people talk about being one. If we want people to know what a Spaatz cadet is, we need to talk about it... By this I mean in public, on resumes, whatever else. Let people ask, when you explain what it means to be a Spaatz cadet thats when people will respect what you did and want the same for the kids around them.

Many people don't know what it means to be a eagle scout besides that its the highest award in the boy scouts....  This was not always known... Learn from them and others and market what we are....

We also need to learn how to pronounce Spaatz, I've heard at least 2 versions said equally as often....

[RiverAux]

, but I would mind if it was being made to be "veteran" service. 

Does putting a photo of someone in their CAP uniform in their literature or on their campaign web page go to far? 

[Capt Rivera]

, but I would mind if it was being made to be "veteran" service. 

Does putting a photo of someone in their CAP uniform in their literature or on their campaign web page go to far? 

no. not as long as it says Civil Air Patrol on it.... no different then a former boyscout doing the same.... As a CAP member you are doing a service to your country... even as a cadet.... so it is pertinent... As long as it is clear that its a CAP pic and not USAF etc... no problem with me... in fact, I'm proud of the use....

[dogboy]

Here's a Darcey Burner Bio Spot from You Tube

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4241327417063143793&ei=Sp7ISPrMDpzYqAOHsLWtAg&q=Darcy+Burner+&vt=lf&hl=en

I do not know whether this "Bio Spot" was authorized by her, or even by her opposition as a "dirty trick".

However, it does imply that Burner is an Air Force Veteran. Some unidentified persons appear in a Vietnam- era Air Force or CAP uniform and the words "Air Force Veteran" appear on the screen. Subsequently there are at least two photos of Burner wearing her CAP blue uniform but there's no wording on the screen to indicate this is CAP and not the Air Force.

A sophisticated viewer would notice that she quite a rack of ribbons for one so young and therefore she must be a cadet of some type but most viewers would not pick up on this.

[DC]

Here's a Darcey Burner Bio Spot from You Tube

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4241327417063143793&ei=Sp7ISPrMDpzYqAOHsLWtAg&q=Darcy+Burner+&vt=lf&hl=en

I do not know whether this "Bio Spot" was authorized by her, or even by her opposition as a "dirty trick".

However, it does imply that Burner is an Air Force Veteran. Some unidentified persons appear in a Vietnam- era Air Force or CAP uniform and the words "Air Force Veteran" appear on the screen. Subsequently there are at least two photos of Burner wearing her CAP blue uniform but there's no wording on the screen to indicate this is CAP and not the Air Force.

A sophisticated viewer would notice that she quite a rack of ribbons for one so young and therefore she must be a cadet of some type but most viewers would not pick up on this.

The words 'Air Force Veteran' appear on the screen, but the narration clearly says that she is the daughter of an Air Force Veteran. And I would presume it is an authorized video, since she speaks at the end, and does the typical "I'm Politician X, and I approved this message" at the end.

[DNall]

yeah a guy here did a few years back, got his pants beat off. he didn't claim to be in the military.  didn't mention CAP, just a pic on his webpage in flight suit. Was no longer a member at this point. It's a little jacked up, but talking about service to country and community is fine, just so they aren't in CAP anymore.

Same deal applies to pics in military uniform. It's a little shady, but passable if they're not still in service. I don't know about guard/reserve, I'm not always real comfortable with it.

I got no problem with someone claiming CAP service as part of their record. No more than military service. The issue is the military can't be seen to be endorsing any particular party, candidate, position, etc. That's a big deal.

[Smithsonia]

A fellow in my squadron -- Hank Eng -- is running for congress as a Democrat for the Colorado 6th District. He mentions his affiliation with CAP in his campaign literature. We are quite proud of Hank. Hank is proud of the CAP. We like Hank. Go Hank GO! SEE HERE: http://www.hankeng.com/

[Capt Rivera]

i have no problem with that video.... She did not say CAP or the RM supported her...

The picture of veterans were probably family members, she stated she was the daughter of a veteran....  She also said she was married to one and showed her family...

The picture of her dad I assume, did not have her in it, and the caption said veterans which was accurate...

She was obviously a young kid when she is shown receiving an award in a mil style uniform.... this was also at the time she was talking about her younger years. (schools etc)

I have no idea who she is or what she represents... but I have NO problem with her ad at all.... I don't believe it was looking to mislead anyone... The "other side" always looks to find something actually or that could be spun to look wrong... They gave their opinion of the add which of course might sway people if the hear that opinion before watching the add.... keep an open mind when you watch it and you shouldn't have issues with it... but of course... YMMV

by the way "the other side" is any side that is not the side currently being spoken of..... no agenda here....

[Flying Pig]

I could only see it being a problem if something you did as a kid was listed in your areas of major accomplishments.  If I am looking for a political candidate, one that puts a lot of weight on youth activities that had occurred 20+ years earlier may give the impression that you havnt done much since.

From the articles it seems more like the media seized on it and blew it out of proportion in this case.  Other than that, I cant think of a time when CAP has ever been a campaign issue where I am.  In the grand scheme of things, I would certainly hope there are other things to talk about.

[Auxpilot]

Somewhat related to this topic - it appears that we have a chance of seeing a lot of pilots in the White House soon, which can only be a help to CAP.

John McCain is a pilot (as we all know), his wife Cindy is a pilot.

I have heard, but have been unable to verify that Sarah Palin is a pilot. Might be rumor based on her husband owning a plane.

Her husband, Todd Palin is a pilot and owns a Super Cub.

Can't hurt our cause..............

[Flying Pig]

I could only see it being a problem if something you did as a kid was listed in your areas of major accomplishments.  If I am looking for a political candidate, one that puts a lot of weight on youth activities that had occurred 20+ years earlier may give the impression that you havnt done much since.

From the articles it seems more like the media seized on it and blew it out of proportion in this case.  Other than that, I cant think of a time when CAP has ever been a campaign issue where I am.  In the grand scheme of things, I would certainly hope there are other things to talk about.

The only thing I thought was a little on the poor thinking side was when it showed her in uniform and talked about her dad being in the military, the words "military veteran" flashed briefly on the screen.  Eeeeeeeh....Big deal, No. But I think someone new what they were trying to do

[Capt Rivera]

1 secound in the video... it showed "Air Force Veteran"  and the first thing said was the daughter of a af veteran..... blabla... darcy learned early [implying she was young when she learned] at this point... we are @ 7 nsecounds and it shows her in CAP uniform.... 

the AF pic was the 1st pic... during the 1st second of the video
the CAP pic was the 4th pic....

the 2 pics in between showed her as a baby and her as a young child with her family.....  again the 4 th pic shows her in CAP uniform as a preteen/teen.

immedialty befor showing the CAP pic it says:

"darcy learned early that...

while showing her CAP pic... it says "in america with hard work, anything is possible....

during the next CAP pic it says:

grew up in military towns and attended public schools [again something that depicts the age she was at the time of the pic]

it goes on to continue the timeline showing school awards, more family stuff, college graduation, work @ MS, family today.... etc...

again.... unless you WANT it to show something, how is this trying to trick anyone?

[alamrcn]

We are quite proud of Hank. Hank is proud of the CAP. We like Hank. Go Hank GO!

Ohhhh, I almost fell out of my chair - THAT was funny!

I vote for a person and not a party platform, so membership in the same organization as myself would be a very big influence. And if I were in a position to vote for someone in CAP, that would definitely be a hard swing their way. Potentionally, but not certainly, I could know what kind of person they are just from that aspect alone.

If I ran for local office - which I've fantasied about - I would definitely point out my CURRENT membership, but not any of my accomplishments. If any one had any questions about CAP, I'd be happy to answer them... and then hand them a recruiting brosure!

[Flying Pig]

1 secound in the video... it showed "Air Force Veteran"  and the first thing said was the daughter of a af veteran..... blabla... darcy learned early [implying she was young when she learned] at this point... we are @ 7 nsecounds and it shows her in CAP uniform.... 

the AF pic was the 1st pic... during the 1st second of the video
the CAP pic was the 4th pic....

the 2 pics in between showed her as a baby and her as a young child with her family.....  again the 4 th pic shows her in CAP uniform as a preteen/teen.

immedialty befor showing the CAP pic it says:

"darcy learned early that...

while showing her CAP pic... it says "in america with hard work, anything is possible....

during the next CAP pic it says:

grew up in military towns and attended public schools [again something that depicts the age she was at the time of the pic]

it goes on to continue the timeline showing school awards, more family stuff, college graduation, work @ MS, family today.... etc...

again.... unless you WANT it to show something, how is this trying to trick anyone?

Give me a break.  She is obviously going for the veteran crowd.  Since when does a political candidate run an ad showing them receiving awards as a kid.   She is using the words "veteran" and innocently showing herself in an "Air Force"uniform accepting awards.  Please.  It looks to me that her whole foundation for running is that she was the daughter of a vet, married to a vet, and was a CAP Cadet.  She is not campaigning to CAP, she is campaigning to people who only see her in a military uniform.  Please tell me she has more to offer her community than being a member of the Spaatz Club.

[Capt Rivera]

i take it as saying... here is my military related background... based on this... vets and those who will be, and parents of current and soon to be mil members.... etc, find comfort in my appreciation & understanding of what you "do", have done and will do...  I've grown up with family members gone, i am married to someone who is concerned with vet benefits and I grew up being instilled with the things that make you proud to be a vet....

FlyingPig are you saying our cadets get nothing from our relationship with the AF/mil in general?

[Flying Pig]

What Im saying is that if your a politician running for office, and the majority of your campaign add is pictures of you in a youth organization and talking about your dad and your husband.....you need to do a serious reassessment.

[SilverEagle2]

I look at it this way.

As an Eagle Scout and an Eaker recipient, I put both on my Resume along with my other personal achievements in life. It demonstrates a pattern of consistant reliability, dependability, and responsibility. It shows that I was a contributor to society from my youth and not a reformed bully.

I think that any noteworthy achievement and service should be used in listing experience and qualifications in important offices. I would like to know that my candidate has always been one striving to make a difference from the beginning and not just in the last bit of their life.

I may have to explain the Eaker more than the Eagle, but both are just as important.

I am also an Air Force Brat. Does that mean I understand Veteran affairs better than non brats? I'd like to think so. I helped teach a few USAFA cadets in my youth and have actively lived in an around the Air Force most of my life.

If used in the proper context, it should be allowed. If part of a larger FISH story, then no.

My 2 Cents.

[alamrcn]

What Im saying is that if your a politician running for office, and the majority of your campaign add is pictures of you in a youth organization and talking about your dad and your husband.....you need to do a serious reassessment.

It looked to be a Patriotic theme ad, of which her CAP affiliation fit in well. If she was a farmer's daughter, grew up on a farm, married a farmer... Then created a political ad to appeal to the farming communittee, would you have the same opinion?

This was much better than the standard shots of Johnny Fencesitter speaking to a group of senior citizens (medicare and prescriptions), some old guys with VFW hats (vets, military), and a couple minority kids (education, welfare). Although, there was some of that in the last half of the commercial.

The three VERY QUICK photos were something different, and they would catch my attention as a patriot even if I wasn't in CAP - or even knew what it was.

[DNall]

I look at it this way.

As an Eagle Scout and an Eaker recipient, I put both on my Resume along with my other personal achievements in life. It demonstrates a pattern of consistant reliability, dependability, and responsibility. It shows that I was a contributor to society from my youth and not a reformed bully.

Entirely appropriate on a resume!! I don't think anyone questions that. I have all kinds of CAP related stuff on my military resume. It helped me get my flight slot. That's absolutely related and legit.

Intentionally giving a false impression you're a real mil veteran when you're not is not cool. Citing cadet experience or eagle scout/etc from decades ago is more meaningless than bad form. Continued active involvement is a valid thing to mention. I doubt very much that many candidates do as much on a volunteer basis to serve their country/community as many CAP members. That's certainly worth noting, and is a valid campaign issue. It shouldn't be a cornerstone of your candidacy though.

[SilverEagle2]

So you are saying that as a current Senior Member as well as current Scoutmaster is more legit because it shows continued involvement.

So her credability is better if she continued after Spaatz and was a current participating SM?

I could buy into that.

Like I said, if part of a bigger FISH story, then I do not feel it is appropriate.

[Flying Pig]

CAP is fine on a resume.  It is on my resume, but its doesn't say anything about being a cadet.  I have a part where it mentions my flying and ES related training because it directly relates and I continue to be involved.  At this point in my life, nobody is concerned about what youth activities I was involved in 15 years ago.  If its all you have, then put it on, or if its relevant to your position your going for.  But when I look at a 30 something candidate/applicant for anything whether it be politics or a job, and I see youth activities you participated in many years earlier listed, Im going to really start scrutinizing your record.  Since its standard practice to NOT have your resume go beyond 2 pages, Its going to be looked at as padding you resume with fluff.  This woman we are discussing seems to be lagit.  And she went on to be a Microsoft Exec so Im sure CAP Cadet life in reality is either way down on her list if it is even mentioned on her professional resume.

Again, it needs to be time appropriate.  If your 20 years old, and left CAP at 18, then yes, it applies.  If your applying for National Commander, it applies.  But the farther behind you it gets, the less relevant your youth activities become.  A mid 30's political candidate/applicant, Id like to see a little more substance. Maybe its only here in CA.  But lately we seem to have A LOT of younger local politicians running on the coat tails of their parents/spouses accomplishments and its being noticed by the media out here.   Probably because they went on to college after High School and then spent the next 10 years as a paid staffer in Dad's office, now they want daddy's seat when he retires.

[DNall]

Again, my real concern with CAP members doing this is they don't understand the written and unwritten rules about the military doing this, nor are they subject to the negative societal pressures from the military community (other than lost votes) when they do it wrong. And with the uniform it's an issue.

It really is a very big constitutional issue for us that we not give the impression of the military - or by extension, anyone in the military - endorsing any candidate/position/party at any time for any reason.

As far as resumes... I think it's always appropriate to mention CAP for a couple key reasons. One is you want to cite some community/volunteer involvement just in general. But the other is you're probably going to have some times when you'd like to take off work for CAP related missions/activities/etc. It's good to be up front about that in the employment process. If the employer knows what they're getting into with it, a lot of times they'll be much more supportive down the road. Plus, if that whole conversation comes up it probably helps you get the job in most cases too.

[D2SK]

Don't ya'll have jobs, or lives or something even a little more important to do?

Sheesh.

[Flying Pig]

I am happy to announce that yesterday I started 10 days of vacation.  So NO!  I dont have anything better to do.

[DNall]

I just signed papers to sell my house & waiting for the less than cheap labor to finish cutting back the trees as a freakin hurricane progresses toward rolling directly over my new place. I was thinking I'd save some energy for the next couple weeks of work 

[Cecil DP]

I recall meeting Darcy a few times. Once when she received the Cadet of the Year Award and later when she took her SLS in Massachusetts while she attended Harvard. She impressed me both times and if I lived in Seattle I would vote for her.

[Major Carrales]

Some of you folks are too much...

Today we operated a COMM center at CAP Station Corpus Christi in support of Hurricane IKE, we worked with other agencies and we had a cadet on the radio for a while and relaying info to those organizations.

That cadet did outstandingly well and was praised.  He represented CAP, and the value of the Cadet Program, very well.  If you folks can't see the potential of a well trained CADET that meets a higher standard or can't see that the CADET PROGRAM is meaningful enough to play a major role in the lives of the CADETS; then I think some of you have a low opinion of the CADETS.

After what I saw today...a cadet (under supervision, of course) making a difference; I think I am going to take any "put downs" of the CADET PROGRAM and treatment of CADETS as "second class in every way and just snot nosed kids" as an insult.

If this candidate was a shining example of what CAP can do for a person's development, why not place that on a resume? 

[NEBoom]

<snip> 

I was intrigued to see an interview (linked from the blog) done with Burner at the time in which she was quoted as saying:

I had some incredible opportunities as a Cadet that went far beyond what I (or anyone) would get at that age.

I was the executive officer of the Nebraska wing, which, as far as I know is an unprecedented thing, to have a Cadet fill a wing staff command position.

The only place I have heard of "Executive Officer" being used in association with CAP is at some wing cadet encampments.  I suppose having a cadet fill that position isn't totally outside the realm of possibility, though would definetely be unusual.  I can only assume that she didn't mean Wing Vice Commander.   

I can shed some light on this aspect of the discussion.  I was around the wing back in those days, and I remember Darcy well.  She did, in fact, serve as the "Wing Executive Officer" under (then) Colonel Rich Anderson who was the NEWG Commander at the time.  She was not the Vice Commander.

As to the video, the picture of the Air Force veteran toward the beginning is her father Ralph.  He is still an active member in CAP.

[Johnny Yuma]

OMFG, Darcy Gibbons.  Spaatz cadet outta NEWG. Been a long time since that name's been mentioned around NCR. She ran around with another blonde female cadet officer in NEWG practically everywhere I saw her/them.

I knew her from KSWG 88 encampment, IAWG Winter Rangers, a couple NCR activities. I thought then she was brilliant intellectually, but nuttier than a squirrel in a Planter's warehouse . From the looks of her campaign website nothing's changed.

That's right, she was NEWG XO for awhile.


 

[NEBoom]

Edit -- The rest of the gang here probably doesn't want to read about NEWG/NCR Old Home Week.  Taking it to PM.  Sorry for the diversion.

[DNall]

Some of you folks are too much...

Today we operated a COMM center at CAP Station Corpus Christi in support of Hurricane IKE, we worked with other agencies and we had a cadet on the radio for a while and relaying info to those organizations.

That cadet did outstandingly well and was praised.  He represented CAP, and the value of the Cadet Program, very well.  If you folks can't see the potential of a well trained CADET that meets a higher standard or can't see that the CADET PROGRAM is meaningful enough to play a major role in the lives of the CADETS; then I think some of you have a low opinion of the CADETS.

After what I saw today...a cadet (under supervision, of course) making a difference; I think I am going to take any "put downs" of the CADET PROGRAM and treatment of CADETS as "second class in every way and just snot nosed kids" as an insult.

If this candidate was a shining example of what CAP can do for a person's development, why not place that on a resume? 

I think you'll find everyone here has a very positive view of cadets & the program. However, that experience from 20 years ago is not germane as a qualification for public office as an adult. It has nothing to do with the cadet program being good or bad. Just like being a cop doesn't mean much 20 years after you quit doing it. Or being in the military in other than a time of war for that matter. A long military career &/or combat service is meaningful for a lifetime & does bear on qualification for office, as does long-term & continued service in CAP, though obviously less so.

[notaNCO forever]

 As a cadet officer you can get good leadership experience and it teaches integrity, something most politicians need more of.

[Major Carrales]

I think you'll find everyone here has a very positive view of cadets & the program. However, that experience from 20 years ago is not germane as a qualification for public office as an adult.

On the contrary, how one spends the developmental years is very germane to their service in public office.   Having obtained the SPAATZ Award is nothing to sneeze at.  It means that, even as a youth, the individual was, instead of playing videogames and taging building, was dedicated to a culture of community service.

Also, that they developed in an envrionment where they took an oath to "advance their education and training rapidly to prepare themselves to be of service to their Community, State and Nation."  Having completed the program to its end means that they accomplished that goal.  Placing a photo of them as a cadet in uniform on a slide show says much, much more than you people give it credit for.

Just like being a cop doesn't mean much 20 years after you quit doing it. Or being in the military in other than a time of war for that matter. A long military career &/or combat service is meaningful for a lifetime & does bear on qualification for office, as does long-term & continued service in CAP, though obviously less so.

That series of statmensts is so full of disingenuous twists and turns its left me dizzy.  Having been a policeman, placing ones life on the line to serve and protect, is a profound experience.  It most definately shapes ones life.  Ask any police officer here of their worth.

Your comments on peace time military service are somewhat insulting.  Simply put, dismissing service to make a point in such a cavelier manner is demeaning.  Putting down peacetime service, CAP service or Fire/Police Service is a mistake.    

[notaNCO forever]

I don't think it would be a good idea to put a picture of yourself in a C.A.P. uniform when you are running for a political position because your opponent will try and twist it into something its not. I would however say something about it and the leadership skills you can gain if you go through the hole program.

[Major Carrales]

I don't think it would be a good idea to put a picture of yourself in a C.A.P. uniform when you are running for a political position because your opponent will try and twist it into something its not. I would however say something about it and the leadership skills you can gain if you go through the hole program.

That is when you take the opportunity to educate the people in your constituency on what CAP is and what is its not.  There is no need to 'hide" CAP service because of the "identity crisis" some of us on this forum prepetuate. 

I think the time has come to really make a name, the proper name, for CAP.  That was the crux of the PAO academy I went to in Atlanta, Georgia.  However, instead of taking that message to the masses, people here instead chose to ridicule the new tag line and were far to caught up in the last major scandal to thing rationally.  However, that has past...maybe now you are all free to promote CAP for what it is?

Be more proud of what you are than ashamed of what you are not!!!

[RiverAux]

Could you Nebraska types please explain what the Nebraska Wing Executive Officer was if it wasn't the Vice Commander? 

[DNall]

Joe, I don't care what someone did in their youth. If we can dismiss college drug use by presidential candidates, and we should, then why does something like eagle scout or spaatz award really matter. It's nice, but it doesn't make them more capable than someone else. It doesn't say anything about their character NOW.

You can take it for what it's worth with the long ago police or non-war mil service. Again, it's nice, but it was a job you had one time back in the day. It may well shape a bit of who you are, but it's who you are, not how you got there, that makes the difference. Actually taking fire, maybe bleeding/killing/losing friends in the defense of your country is a whole different level. That's a sacrifice that remains relevant. It doesn't matter the degree to which it shaped you into what you are, it matters that you made a greater sacrifice than most people will ever do.

[Major Carrales]

Joe, I don't care what someone did in their youth. If we can dismiss college drug use by presidential candidates, and we should, then why does something like eagle scout or Spaatz award really matter. It's nice, but it doesn't make them more capable than someone else. It doesn't say anything about their character NOW.

You can take it for what it's worth with the long ago police or non-war mil service. Again, it's nice, but it was a job you had one time back in the day. It may well shape a bit of who you are, but it's who you are, not how you got there, that makes the difference. Actually taking fire, maybe bleeding/killing/losing friends in the defense of your country is a whole different level. That's a sacrifice that remains relevant. It doesn't matter the degree to which it shaped you into what you are, it matters that you made a greater sacrifice than most people will ever do.

You miss the point.  A person is not simply "who they are," or "who they appear to be;" they are the sum total of all their experience.  The measure of a person takes into account all their experience.

A person who was a drug user as a youth might change, it might have been a one time thing or maybe they were on one life and made an epiphany to change.  All that is entered into who they are.

Why is it key to show that Bill Clinton came from a poor home, or Obama from a single parent home or John McCain's service and torture in Vietnam?  Why do we look at the upbrining of Abraham Lincoln or the life of George Washington (who was a second son to Augustine Washington)?  Because it builds character.

CAP Service, be it as a Cadet or CAP Officer is not a shameful thing.  It does not have to be hidden or hidden by omission.  If she is proud of her service as a CAP Cadet, she should place it amoung her accomplishments.

Do not dismiss those elements that made a person who they are, doing that makes what they appear to be artificial and almost manaquin like.   We all exist in our past, present and future at once...that median worth is who we are.  You best be learning that if you are to be a judge of men under your command.

[Cecil DP]

Could you Nebraska types please explain what the Nebraska Wing Executive Officer was if it wasn't the Vice Commander? 

In the AF the executive officer is the commanders assistant and basically an office manager. He is there to make sure that the office is run smoothly. It is not the second in command, as it would be in the other services.

[notaNCO forever]

  What you do as a youth does matter latter on in life. One thing that can be a huge influence is C.A.P.'s core values and moral leadership classes. If a cadet grew up in a home were no one taught them any values were else could they learn them from? You don't think C.A.P.'s core values would make a difference? Perhaps another cadet that was homeschooled and had no were else to practice public speaking. You don't think that could make a difference? When people are young that is the point in life that they start to decide what they think is right and wrong. I'm not saying people can't change what they think latter on in life, but on a whole people don't change.

[DNall]

Look, I agree that being a CAP cadet, and excelling in that program as a kid is meaningful to that person, to making them a better person. However, I could just as easily show you a spaatz cadet or eagle scout that ended up smoking pounds of dope in college, or selling it, or defrauding their company. It'd really be ashame to see that, but it can and does happen. I can't translate those childhood experiences into some kind of guarantee about a person's character. I doesn't mean they are NOW a good person with strong ethics. I mean, look at our past CAP/CC & you can't even cite current service even at high levels as any kind of guarantee.

I'm not in any way ashamed of the cadet program of CAP in any way. I really don't have a problem with refs to CAP being in someone's profile - no more than saying they were once an eagle scout or they'd been a cop 20 years ago, or once served in the military for a couple years in peace time. It's just not important in the what have you done for me lately category, nor is it determinative of who you really are NOW.

Like I said, I don't mind the citation, but there is the potential (as cited previously) of having it turned around on you by the media/opponents. And, my primary concern is that military/constitutional issue that CAP isn't tracking on. DoD recently came out with a guide on how to do this/limits/etc. I think it would be a good idea for CAP to adopt that & make it avail to members.

[Major Carrales]

Dennis, I think you are I are about done on this issue.  I'll let you have the final word.

You seem to see CAP Service, especially as a Cadet, as "baby games."  Yes, I know you rcently became an officer in the Service, however, just because your horizons have been raised don't mean you have to see everything in CAP as "wrong," "broken" or "less than honorable."  I say that as a speculation to which I expect I am not fully in understanding.  However, you are more likely to make a post against something in CAP than praising it or trying to push CAP into something it has never been.

Look, I agree that being a CAP cadet, and excelling in that program as a kid is meaningful to that person, to making them a better person. However, I could just as easily show you a spaatz cadet or eagle scout that ended up smoking pounds of dope in college, or selling it, or defrauding their company. It'd really be ashame to see that, but it can and does happen. I can't translate those childhood experiences into some kind of guarantee about a person's character. I doesn't mean they are NOW a good person with strong ethics. I mean, look at our past CAP/CC & you can't even cite current service even at high levels as any kind of guarantee.

There is no "guarantee" of anything related to this.  Success in the CAP program is not a "fix all," it is a predisposition.  Things you do now do not guarantee you are a good person. She is proud of her service in the CADET PROGRAM, I say let here go with it.  In any case I don't think the image portayed is "Look, I was a CAP CADET and this makes me a MESSIAH, WORSHIP ME!!!"  I think it was more of "Look, I've got a long history of community service from a young age."

Until we are ready to accept that we preform gallantly in CAP, we will never come to realize our worth.  And if we can't realize that, how do we expect anyone else to?

I'm not in any way ashamed of the cadet program of CAP in any way. I really don't have a problem with refs to CAP being in someone's profile - no more than saying they were once an eagle scout or they'd been a cop 20 years ago, or once served in the military for a couple years in peace time. It's just not important in the what have you done for me lately category, nor is it determinative of who you really are NOW.

20 years ago I took violin lessons with my late Grandfather, I've been a musician since then.  20 years ago I made the descision I was going to take school seriously, so much so I would later become a teacher.  20 years ago was 1988!

"What have you done for me lately?"  Strange, I thought we were in the "service before self" category.  Experience is experience, it is the foundation of your knowledge and skills.  If you can't understand that, if none of us can...he might as well shut down the program since, Dennis, you maintain it "doesn't really matter anyway. "  See how that reads.

Like I said, I don't mind the citation, but there is the potential (as cited previously) of having it turned around on you by the media/opponents. And, my primary concern is that military/constitutional issue that CAP isn't tracking on. DoD recently came out with a guide on how to do this/limits/etc. I think it would be a good idea for CAP to adopt that & make it avail to members.

Rubish... while CAP should not be a "political party" and candiates should not appear in uniform, citing CAP on your resume is not a black mark nor is it verboten from mention.

Dennis, I am likely not going to reply to your next repsonse.  I think we are at an end with this.  I do hope you will make it good, well thought out and that it is dropped between us.  Other can carry on or hammer my points, but I can't see the positive in your position on this matter.

[NEBoom]

Could you Nebraska types please explain what the Nebraska Wing Executive Officer was if it wasn't the Vice Commander? 

That was a long time ago, and I was not directly involved, so my knowledge is limited.  Check your PM.

[DNall]

You seem to see CAP Service, especially as a Cadet, as "baby games."  Yes, I know you rcently became an officer in the Service, however, just because your horizons have been raised don't mean you have to see everything in CAP as "wrong," "broken" or "less than honorable."  I say that as a speculation to which I expect I am not fully in understanding.  However, you are more likely to make a post against something in CAP than praising it or trying to push CAP into something it has never been.

That is completely wrong. CAP cadet service is outstanding, but 20 years later it's no different than having been a boy scout or something similar. It's just not a big deal in the grand scheme of things.

As for CAP. I'm here & been a member a real long time. That should speak for itself in my regard for this organization and its potential. Just about everything I say on this site is related to areas where CAP is not fully reaching its potential and talking about things we can do to accomplish that, not sitting back on our laurels making excuses. I'm always positive. You want negative disparaging remarks, go to news of the force.

There is no "guarantee" of anything related to this...

Yeah? I can say if someone spent 7yrs in a POW camp getting tortured & stayed back when offered release to keep faith with his comrades... That's a guarantee of character and tenacity under pressure comparable to anything one would face in public office. Getting promoted thru a cadet program or eagle scout or anything of the sort is not such an amazing accomplishment that few people in the world are capable of if they contributed their full life and effort to it. It doesn't involve insane risk to life for service above self. It doesn't take it to the mat as the saying goes. So, it is not in any way a bad thing, but neither is it relevant. If this girl or someone else wants to cite it, whatever, I don't care, but it doesn't mean much if anything in the big picture, and it comes with some issues that I think are dangerous for CAP, the military, and the candidate, and I don't like that.

Until we are ready to accept that we preform gallantly in CAP, we will never come to realize our worth.  And if we can't realize that, how do we expect anyone else to?

Gallantry, really? lots of people face death in day-to-day CAP service do they? A few accidents & few dangerous situations from time to time, but way I remember it they wouldn't let us respond to Katrina for weeks, and then it wasn't rescuing people from immanent death. Honorable, certainly, but gallant, that's a stretch.

I'm not in any way ashamed of the cadet program of CAP in any way. I really don't have a problem with refs to CAP being in someone's profile - no more than saying they were once an eagle scout or they'd been a cop 20 years ago, or once served in the military for a couple years in peace time. It's just not important in the what have you done for me lately category, nor is it determinative of who you really are NOW.

20 years ago I took violin lessons with my late Grandfather, I've been a musician since then.  20 years ago I made the descision I was going to take school seriously, so much so I would later become a teacher.  20 years ago was 1988!

"What have you done for me lately?"  Strange, I thought we were in the "service before self" category.  Experience is experience, it is the foundation of your knowledge and skills.  If you can't understand that, if none of us can...he might as well shut down the program since, Dennis, you maintain it "doesn't really matter anyway. "  See how that reads.

So being a musician NOW is meaningful to who you are, not how you became a musician, your motivations, etc. That's a feel good feature. Same deal with school. It matters that you got a degree and became a teacher, not that you did well in school as a kid. It's the results, not the path to reaching them, that bears more on your current qualifications.

Like I said, I don't mind the citation, but there is the potential (as cited previously) of having it turned around on you by the media/opponents. And, my primary concern is that military/constitutional issue that CAP isn't tracking on. DoD recently came out with a guide on how to do this/limits/etc. I think it would be a good idea for CAP to adopt that & make it avail to members.

Rubish... while CAP should not be a "political party" and candiates should not appear in uniform, citing CAP on your resume is not a black mark nor is it verboten from mention.

I do believe I said I cite CAP in my resume!!! I do believe I said several times it's okay for a candidate to cite. I said it is NOT okay for people to take it too far. We have an issue in the military of being very understated about our military service so as not to give the impression of military support. If the public became aware that 90% of the military supported one candidate or one position or the other, that would be catastrophic for the country. Most CAP members don't understand where the limits are in that respect, and it's concerning if they want to start putting CAP out there in politics.

[Flying Pig]

Could someone please highlight where anyone said CAP Cadet service was "shamefull"?

[Johnny Yuma]

Bottom Line:

A CAP cadet has been given a lifelong set of values. What you do with them is up to you. Some CAP cadets are never going to even get their Mitchell and go far. Others will get their Spaatz and do life in a Texas penitentiary.

About our subject at hand: IMHO Some folks are going to see a picture from her past in a uniform and hear her talk about service and military/veteran issues. Many folks not knowing any better are going to assume she's a veteran because of Darcy's lack of specifics. I suspect that's part of her campaign strategy, incredibly underhanded and misleading.

Never mind that for now. I'm from KS, she's running in WA. However, looking at some of the folks endorsing her is scary: Nancy Pelosi's done a video spot for her and even Michael Moore (from Roger and Me, Bowling for Columbine and other "documentaries") endorses her in his guide to the 2008 elections, which can be found at your local Barnes and Noble. Based on that and what I gleaned from her Website ("Darcy" Magazine??? You gotta be kidding me!) I couldn't vote for her.