Steve Fosset's Widow to be billed for search...

[Nomex Maximus]

Story here... http://www.fox5vegas.com/news/16098195/detail.html

[JayT]

.............WOW.

[Tubacap]

This was a mission that was partially state funded correct?

[Hawk200]

I hope the Air Force decides to write off our part. We don't need any of the negative publicity relating to this.

From the sounds of it, that state has some money issues. Almost a billion shortfall? Someones not keeping real good track of their greenbacks.

[tribalelder]

I was surprised the search went on as long as it did.  

Cynically (after 14 years in federal service and two years on federally funded NIH grants), I note that the end of the search corresponded with the end of the federal fiscal year.  My assumption was that the CAP part of the search sucked up every CAP training dollar that hadn't yet been spent for the fiscal year then closing.  

If the search had started in October, would it have gone more than a week ?

[jimmydeanno]

My state charges people for their rescue if it is something caused by their own stupidity or lack of planning - ie: taking a group of cub scouts hiking in the white mountains just before dark to scale a 4,500 ft peak in the rain during April without any equipment.

IIRC, it started from some lady calling 911 to save her pet parrot that she brough hiking because it flew into a tree...

[Tubacap]

^ We had a Boy Scout search that was fairly similar to the one you describe last year.

[RiverAux]

Run away CAP, run away!!!

Do I recall correctly that the NG was actually using C-130s for this search at one point?  No wonder they spent so much money.

However, I do wonder what provisions there are in state law allowing someone to be billed for something like this outside of a hoax situation. 

[capchiro]

It would appear that the widow is a multimillionaire and this may be what is justifying the state doing what it is doing.  I doubt if the Air Force or CAP will be billing anybody for anything.  There may have been an unusual request from someone with money to continue the search when it would ahve been cancelled earlier.  If so, it amy ahve been with the promise or at least idea that there would be re-imbursement eventually.  I wouldn't worry about CAP losing any reputation over such.  That is why we volunteer, so people don't have to be able to afford us when they need us.  Sempre Vigilans

[RiverAux]

Well, having us mentioned in this particular story-line sure isn't going to help us any.  We don't want people to get any idea of us being a paid-for type of service like private air ambulance companies. 

[DNall]

The AF bills people for hoax/stupidity missions as well. I don't recall it ever being done, but it's certainly allowed if they want to.

It's not uncommon when a govt official or some prominent figure goes missing for someone to talk to a congressman about it, him talk to AF & the search go on longer than we may otherwise have taken it. You know if a congressman went missing we'd be searching for a month regardless of our POD. That's unfortunate, but welcome to democracy.

Well, having us mentioned in this particular story-line sure isn't going to help us any.  We don't want people to get any idea of us being a paid-for type of service like private air ambulance companies. 

That's true... this is kinda in the like of what I've been trying to say on the PA element of IO & vice versa in that other thread. In this case, I hope NHQ will verify from AF that the fed govt is not charging, at least for our part, and make that clarification vocally to the media outlets.

[RiverAux]

Definetely.

Of course this was so far from a typical missing airplane search that the state might just learn a lesson and have to suck up the costs. 

[RiverAux]

And by that I meant that CAP did pretty much the same thing it would have done for any missing pilot, but the state decided to jump in the game with all their assets.  They should learn that you have to pay to play. 

[Eagle400]

The AF bills people for hoax/stupidity missions as well. I don't recall it ever being done, but it's certainly allowed if they want to.

Then what makes anyone believe that the Air Force won't do the same to CAP as well? 

They don't value CAP enough to give the organization credit for all the man hours devoted to the Hurricane Katrina disaster relief, so what would stop them from NOT writing CAP off?

[DNall]

The AF bills people for hoax/stupidity missions as well. I don't recall it ever being done, but it's certainly allowed if they want to.

Then what makes anyone believe that the Air Force won't do the same to CAP as well? 

They don't value CAP enough to give the organization credit for all the man hours devoted to the Hurricane Katrina disaster relief, so what would stop them from NOT writing CAP off?

What? AF pays for CAP missions. It has the ability to bill targets if the mission is a hoax or they were extremely negligent in creating the situation. The only time I've even heard rumor of this happening was for multiple negligent non-distress activations on a single ELT/owner. There's not a circumstance under which they could put the cost on CAP. It's their mission order. We're just doing the work.

And as far as Katrina... We like to hype our contribution, but it really was not a big deal. And, the AF history of the response talks about how people in the actual Air Force made significant contributions. It doesn't talk about every person or every unit, and there is no reason for CAP has to be mentioned there. Get over it.

[RiverAux]

We flew about 20% of all AF-related sorties during Katrina.  I think that at least rates a mention....but we already have a thread on that.

[Johnny Yuma]

This isn't really new, just the cost involved is making it an issue.

A Colorado county sent a Topeka man a $5,000 bill for pulling him out of the mountains a couple years ago. He was hiking with friends, went down a mismarked trail and sprained an ankle. He was "lost" about 16 hours before he was found in good shape, short the ankle.

It raised some eyebrows as the searchers involved were unpaid volunteers and seems the county's kinda selective who they send bills to.

He and his health insurance settled for $1600 or something.

UPDATE : Found the link http://www.denverpost.com/headlines/ci_6922417

[Gunner C]

The mission of the govt is to serve the people, not the other way around.  I think it's an abomination to charge the victims for rescue services.  Seems to me that the state is going to try to use the Fossett family to make up for their own lack of fiscal responsibility.

The length of a search is directly proportional to the social standing of the family.  Reference the Kennedy family - they had the freaking Navy searching for John-John.  Try to get that sort of assets if your plane goes down. 

The length & cost of the search isn't the fault of the survivors.  Stuff happens and we all band together to help.  That banding together is called the government.

GC

[wingnut]

The Coast Guard will send you a bill to tow you back to port, why not us for false ELTs, or just being stupid. I predict they will not get a dime from Mrs. Fossett. I mean we never found him?? Or is he Missing??

[rjacobs]

This isn't really new, just the cost involved is making it an issue.

A Colorado county sent a Topeka man a $5,000 bill for pulling him out of the mountains a couple years ago. He was hiking with friends, went down a mismarked trail and sprained an ankle. He was "lost" about 16 hours before he was found in good shape, short the ankle.

It raised some eyebrows as the searchers involved were unpaid volunteers and seems the county's kinda selective who they send bills to.

He and his health insurance settled for $1600 or something.

UPDATE : Found the link http://www.denverpost.com/headlines/ci_6922417

Despite what the city of Golden did in the linked story, the Colorado Search and Rescue Board has quite a bit of information on their site (under Current Issues at http://www.coloradosarboard.org/) about why billing for searches is bad.

[Tubacap]

I'd like to restate my question about which "hat" CAP was wearing that day.  I know that somtimes PEMA pays for missions that PAWG does through appropriated monies directly to the wing.  Some missions are flown on the USAF dime, and some from other agencies.

Some expanded incidents have various sections that are flown from the state until the NOC makes it a federal mission and it is flown under either corporate or USAF funds.

If this was a state mission, then some of the kickbacks should come back to the wing.  Not saying this is a good thing, just saying it is out there.

So, does anyone know the mission symbol that these sorties were flown under?

[RiverAux]

I have never heard of a missing aircraft mission being flown under anything but an AFAM. 

Now, I wonder just how fair it is to bill somebody for a service that they didn't specifically ask for.  The guy with the sprained ankle probably didn't call and ask for help, so how is it fair to bill him for a decision made by somebody in the government to come looking for him? 

[sardak]

The guy with the broken ankle wasn't lost but did call for help after he hiked as far as he could on the ankle. One issue was that the Golden Fire Dept. responded outside of its district and therefore it had to charge him. The rationale was that the residents of the district shouldn't foot the bill for an out of district call. There was a second FD that responded, also out of district, and they charged the hiker $2400 in addition to the $5900 Golden billed him. After the negative publicity, the other FD withdrew its bill entirely, Golden didn't. The hiker settled by paying Golden $502.  Neither FD was responsible for performing the SAR mission, which by state law is the responsibility of the sheriff. The sheriff's no-bill SAR team had to stand by and watch. That's the real issue.

As for the feds charging for SAR, this is from the National SAR Plan, which of course is only policy, not regulatory: "Participants agree that unless required for by law, civil SAR services provided to persons in danger or distress will be without subsequent cost-recovery from the person(s) assisted."  The Coast Guard can and has billed for SAR, but only in cases of hoaxes as far as I can find. There may have been cases involving gross negligence, but I'm not aware of them.

I suspect on the Fossett search the state is being opportunistic. It was involved in a search for a person who some believe staged his own disappearance, and whose personal wealth combined with that of his friends, who also helped with the search, is in the billions of dollars. The state, like Golden with its residents, wants to look like it is showing fiduciary responsibility to its citizens.

Mike

[Flying Pig]

From the tone of the article, I almost got the feel that they were "asking" her to pay it back.  Kind of like, "Hey, ummmm..we shelled out a ton for your hubby.  Do you think you could help us out by paying it back?"

[lordmonar]

Being a Nevada Resident........it's all well and good to say "let the government suffer for it's lack of fiscal responsbility"....and "how dare they charge for rescue services"

EMT services and emergency rooms charge for treating you....no one is up in arms about that.

I know when I was in a Volunteer Fire Department way back in the 80's....we billed the victums if we responded to their fire....even if all that was left was a foundation.

The life flight choppers are not free.

Sure it's a dig to charge the widow...but let's face it....sometimes you have got to say....sorry you can't get a free pass.

Recouping these losses may save several people's jobs......like school teachers and rural doctors....which the state is thinking about scaling back!

[jimmydeanno]

EMT services and emergency rooms charge for treating you....no one is up in arms about that.

Actually people are...one of the "issues" in the upcoming election concerns universal healthcare...go socialism...

[Flying Pig]

The County I am with does not charge people for SAR, although, even a fairly small search can costs 10's of thousands of dollars.  I am not opposed to charging people.  Especially with times like they are, the resources aren't cheap, not are they free.   Although, the average person would never be able to pay the bill. 
One issue we have is that some seasons, we have so many SAR's it exceeds our budget or you can have a large involved search that nobody could have anticipated that may last for quite a while. One concept that has been done is that if you are a county resident, you pay county taxes, therefore you get it free.  If you aren't, your resident county gets the bill.  And in some cases, the state will reimburse our expenses for a SAR. Im not sure of the criteria for the reimbursements but it has been done.  We even had one where a kid stayed lost on purpose and even hid from the SAR Team until he was done playing.  He didn't get a bill, so I don't know what the criteria is.

[Johnny Yuma]

I know when I was in a Volunteer Fire Department way back in the 80's....we billed the victums if we responded to their fire....even if all that was left was a foundation.

Talk about low form. Around here that's one of the reasons we pay property taxes!

Did the police department charge to respond to robberies and murders, too? Was it by the hour, or by event?

[Short Field]

Dumb idea!!!  The Governor of Nevada is going through a divorce right now.  Must be affecting his brain.  And his campaign pledge to not raise taxes as the state hits a major shortfall in its budget.

There are cases where it is appropriate for SAR to charge for their services.  This is not one of them.  The local police started charging for using their rescue helicopter to pull people off of a local mountain top.  The peak was not that high but had a killer view.  Most of the slopes look like an easy climb but are not meant for nontechnical climbing.    So people went up for the view and had to get a chopper ride to get off.  It was becoming a very routine occurrence.  After charging a few stuckees, people quit attempting the climbs.

[arajca]

I know when I was in a Volunteer Fire Department way back in the 80's....we billed the victums if we responded to their fire....even if all that was left was a foundation.

Talk about low form. Around here that's one of the reasons we pay property taxes!

Did the police department charge to respond to robberies and murders, too? Was it by the hour, or by event?

Not all volunteer fire departments are funded by taxes. I have talked to fire fighters from vfd's that use the following funding systems:
Tax district
Subscription service
Pay-per-call
Donations
Barter
Sales
Fund-raising activities
Cominations of any or all of the above.

To those who pay taxes that support their fire department, the idea of paying for a fire response may seem reprehensible, but in some rural areas, it's a fact of life. Fire insurance or homeowners insurance usually covers the cost.

As for charging for SAR, I have seen it done in very limited circumstances. Colorado is fortunate to have a fund that SAR teams can apply to for reimbursement for some costs. The fund is filled by an endorsement on hunting and fishing licenses and by a hiker's license. The endorsement and hiker's license are entirely optional.

[CASH172]

Do any insurance gurus know if renters insurance covers for a SAR response. 

[isuhawkeye]

some parts of the county still have subscription based services.  If you didnt pay this year the FD doesn't respond

[mikeylikey]

some parts of the county still have subscription based services.  If you didn't pay this year the FD doesn't respond

Really?  I thought that went away in the 1950's.

Do any insurance gurus know if renters insurance covers for a SAR response. 

Most likely NO.  It covers your rental property and what is placed inside that property.  If you happen to go missing, you are no longer inside your rental property, thus your insurance does not cover you.   

[mikeylikey]

I wasn't going to comment on this thread, (didn't want to sound like a jerk), but this lady has millions.  She has 100's of millions.  I think she can afford the cost. 

Anyway, this guy didn't file a flight plan right?  He was a huge risk taker, right?  Then he and his family should pay. 

[JayT]

I wasn't going to comment on this thread, (didn't want to sound like a jerk), but this lady has millions.  She has 100's of millions.  I think she can afford the cost. 

Anyway, this guy didn't file a flight plan right?  He was a huge risk taker, right?  Then he and his family should pay. 

We don't get to pick and choice the people we're assigned to find.

I don't care if we were sent to go chase after Bill Gates. Search and Rescue/Recovery is our job.

If I disappeared without a flight plan, I wouldn't want my parents/signgificant other getting the bill.

[mikeylikey]

I have no compassion for people that have millions of dollars and are asked to pay out such a small amount.  As far as a middle class person receiving a bill.....I don't think that is right.

If you are rich, then you get to pay.  Plain and simple.

Federal Assets were used to try to Find ONE (1) person, because of who he was.  The widow should pay for those assets.  IF this was me or you, do you really think C-130's and all the other junk that flew would be used for us?  Most likely no, and that is why she gets to pay.   

[Gunner C]

I have no compassion for people that have millions of dollars and are asked to pay out such a small amount.  As far as a middle class person receiving a bill.....I don't think that is right.

If you are rich, then you get to pay.  Plain and simple.

Federal Assets were used to try to Find ONE (1) person, because of who he was.  The widow should pay for those assets.  IF this was me or you, do you really think C-130's and all the other junk that flew would be used for us?  Most likely no, and that is why she gets to pay.   

Give me the dollar amount at which they have to write a check.

[isuhawkeye]

please provide a definition of 'rich' that could cover the entire country.

[mikeylikey]

please provide a definition of 'rich' that could cover the entire country.

A person that makes over $200,000 a year. 

[Gunner C]

please provide a definition of 'rich' that could cover the entire country.

A person that makes over $200,000 a year. 

So someone who makes $199,999 a year gets free volunteer searchers and the citizen who makes $200,001 pays the bill if something happens?  Doesn't it matter that both of them will have payed a great deal in local, state, and federal taxes for services just like this?

With all due respect: I disagree.  Each citizen and resident of this country deserves the same consideration.  As a Civil Air Patrol officer, I search for anyone with the same vigor, no matter what their station in life.

GC

[Flying Pig]

Before we know it, you will have to provide the last 3 copies of your pay stub, proof of employment a credit report and your bank account statements prior to any search being launched.

The fact that they are "rich" should hardly be a criteria.  He earned his money.  You either charge everyone you look for, or you don't charge anyone at all.  Now, is it terrible to try an recoup from someone by asking?  I dont think so. Go for it and see what happens.  But I would like to see where that money goes when its paid back.   But as someone said earlier, I doubt any budget shortfalls were caused by looking for Fossett. 

As far as $200k per year, Im sure mikey has no foundation for that number.  Move to CA, and Ill guarantee making $200k per year hardly qualifies you as being rich. 

[jimmydeanno]

I think you guys are missing the point.  The point is that the level of effort for this search asset and time wise was far greater than the typical person gets.  So simply because someone is rich/famous they get a better search effort than the 80 year old alzheimer's patient that wandered into the woods and gets his search called off in 3 days because his chances of survival were slim anyway.

If you want to argue about worth, stop looking at what each person is worth and start looking at they varying values of each person's life that we put on by varying the effort we put in looking for them. Why do we have varying degrees of effort based upon who the person is.

[mikeylikey]

Before we know it, you will have to provide the last 3 copies of your pay stub, proof of employment a credit report and your bank account statements prior to any search being launched.

The fact that they are "rich" should hardly be a criteria.  He earned his money.  You either charge everyone you look for, or you don't charge anyone at all.  Now, is it terrible to try an recoup from someone by asking?  I dont think so. Go for it and see what happens.  But I would like to see where that money goes when its paid back.   But as someone said earlier, I doubt any budget shortfalls were caused by looking for Fossett. 

As far as $200k per year, Im sure mikey has no foundation for that number.  Move to CA, and Ill guarantee making $200k per year hardly qualifies you as being rich. 

But the man in question got searched for by resources that would normally not be used on an ordinary citizen.  And if you read my original reply, I said the wife is a millionaire, so charging her does not effect her as much financially as it would an ordinary tax paying citizen.  

My reply of $200,000 was in response to what I believe constitutes being rich in this country.  Not what I believe should be the cutoff for paying for rescue services.  You see making $200,000 is not the norm.  I would love to see the same resources and amount of people used to search for some missing girl from the ghetto as was used to search for this daredevil.  

If she can afford to pay up the $, then by all means she should.  I think I still have to pay for an ambulance to come pick me up if I am having a heart attack.  Why is this situation any different??

[0]

I can see both points being argued here.  My philosophy his family should not pay for the basic level of search.  That's what emergency service personel do.  However because there were some extra measures taken because of who the missing person was I don't see a problem with asking to help defray the cost of the extra effort.  

[mikeylikey]

I think you guys are missing the point.  The point is that the level of effort for this search asset and time wise was far greater than the typical person gets.  So simply because someone is rich/famous they get a better search effort than the 80 year old Alzheimer's patient that wandered into the woods and gets his search called off in 3 days because his chances of survival were slim anyway.

You beat me to that point!  I can not agree more.  This countries populace is transfixed on celebrity and those that are "famous".  It is really becoming sickening.  It is all apparent too in other areas like politics.  Hollywood believes that because they are all millionaires, they can tell the rest of the country what to think, and who to vote for.  

I think this search in question was conducted for too long, and at enormous expense that would not have been seen if it were anyone else.  It does set a precedence though.  The next person to go missing in that area of the country should get the exact same resources, money and time spent on their search.  If not, it is one hell of a basis for a huge lawsuit against the state and its agencies.  

Next time a elderly person goes missing from an old age home, I hope to see hundreds of thousands of dollars spent on his or her search.  

[mikeylikey]

As far as $200k per year, I'm sure mikey has no foundation for that number.  Move to CA, and Ill guarantee making $200k per year hardly qualifies you as being rich. 

California is soo much different than the rest of this country, it is almost like its own separate country.  I was just stating $200,000 as what I believe sets apart middle class and the wealthy.  I also think that is what the FED basis some tax junk on too. 

[Flying Pig]

If I could move out of CA....Id be gone in a second.  My county borders the area where Fossett went missing.  I have been on a few SARs in that area through work and after about 5 days, and one helicopter searching, we called it.

Inyo and Mono counties are very low income.  Not poor, just very VERY rural.  Those agencies definitely do not have the financial resources to do much when it comes to SARs. I am sure they were more than happy to step aside and let CAP do its thing.   My Dept and CHP usually assist them. 
But, you guys are right in the fact that nobody has ever been searched for like that, for that long.

[CASH172]

Do any insurance gurus know if renters insurance covers for a SAR response. 

Most likely NO.  It covers your rental property and what is placed inside that property.  If you happen to go missing, you are no longer inside your rental property, thus your insurance does not cover you.   

I meant if someone rented an aircraft which ended up being searched for.  Also, does anyone think an umbrella policy would cover SAR.

[JayT]

please provide a definition of 'rich' that could cover the entire country.

A person that makes over $200,000 a year. 

So someone who makes $199,999 a year gets free volunteer searchers and the citizen who makes $200,001 pays the bill if something happens?  Doesn't it matter that both of them will have payed a great deal in local, state, and federal taxes for services just like this?

With all due respect: I disagree.  Each citizen and resident of this country deserves the same consideration.  As a Civil Air Patrol officer, I search for anyone with the same vigor, no matter what their station in life.

GC

Hooah!