Now that CAP is part of the total force

[Yeager]

Just coming off from reading this thread.

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=1486.msg22148#msg22148

- At what point do we start using strictly the label USAF-AUX just like the CG AUX? Being part of the total force of the Air Force should qualify CAP to be officially called USAF-AUX. The CAP ID says on it
- Access to BX and commissaries. So we are part of the total force yet it's up to the base commander to choose whether CAP gets to go on a base? Volunteers volunteering their own time and money but yet treated differently? If the Air Force truly recognized the value and contributions of CAP, CAP members should have been treated equally just like the Active, Guard and Reserve members.
- Ranks. It is obvious that CAP ranks even though it mirrors the USAF are just given as a make belief. Once again if the Air Force valued CAP as total force, it would treat its ranks as it should be treated. We will give you captain ranks but your captain rank is only valid in your organization. But Active, Guard, Reserve, your ranks are valid throughout the military chain of command and even with the Army, Navy, Marines and CG. Is this a joke? Even CG AUX have true ranks and a true ID to access bases.

Think objectively, is CAP really treated fairly compared to the CG AUX? the AF Leadership should stop giving CAP the make belief 3 year old treatment. If you know that CAP performs all these duties and is now part of the total force, stop treating CAP members like the forgotten step child when it comes to privileges.

It's a rant but I'm sure many have thought the same way. Long Live the USAF-AUX

[jeders]

Just coming off from reading this thread.

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=1486.msg22148#msg22148

- At what point do we start using strictly the label USAF-AUX just like the CG AUX?

We won't because that's not who we are.

Being part of the total force of the Air Force should qualify CAP to be officially called USAF-AUX. The CAP ID says on it

The ID also says Civil Air Patrol. CAP is who we are, USAF Aux is what we do.

- Access to BX and commissaries. So we are part of the total force yet it's up to the base commander to choose whether CAP gets to go on a base? Volunteers volunteering their own time and money but yet treated differently? If the Air Force truly recognized the value and contributions of CAP, CAP members should have been treated equally just like the Active, Guard and Reserve members.
- Ranks. It is obvious that CAP ranks even though it mirrors the USAF are just given as a make belief. Once again if the Air Force valued CAP as total force, it would treat its ranks as it should be treated. We will give you captain ranks but your captain rank is only valid in your organization. But Active, Guard, Reserve, your ranks are valid throughout the military chain of command and even with the Army, Navy, Marines and CG. Is this a joke? Even CG AUX have true ranks and a true ID to access bases.

Yes, and when are we going to sign contracts with the government to serve? When are we going to be subject to the UCMJ? When are we going to be thrown in jail for failing to perform our duties or even show up? When are we going to deploy with all the others to war zones (actually, there are probably a few people that would be in favor of that one)?

Think objectively, is CAP really treated fairly compared to the CG AUX? the AF Leadership should stop giving CAP the make belief 3 year old treatment. If you know that CAP performs all these duties and is now part of the total force, stop treating CAP members like the forgotten step child when it comes to privileges.

First off, we're not anything like the CG Aux, so that's a pointless comparison. Also, the CG aux rank doesn't get recognized throughout the military structure. CG Aux personnel aren't afforded all the benefits of the active duty guys. CG Aux doesn't exist outside of the CG; CG Aux is who they are, not just what they do.

Oh great and powerful mods, can we lock this preemptively, please.

[THRAWN]

Just coming off from reading this thread.

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=1486.msg22148#msg22148

- At what point do we start using strictly the label USAF-AUX just like the CG AUX? Being part of the total force of the Air Force should qualify CAP to be officially called USAF-AUX. The CAP ID says on it
- Access to BX and commissaries. So we are part of the total force yet it's up to the base commander to choose whether CAP gets to go on a base? Volunteers volunteering their own time and money but yet treated differently? If the Air Force truly recognized the value and contributions of CAP, CAP members should have been treated equally just like the Active, Guard and Reserve members.
- Ranks. It is obvious that CAP ranks even though it mirrors the USAF are just given as a make belief. Once again if the Air Force valued CAP as total force, it would treat its ranks as it should be treated. We will give you captain ranks but your captain rank is only valid in your organization. But Active, Guard, Reserve, your ranks are valid throughout the military chain of command and even with the Army, Navy, Marines and CG. Is this a joke? Even CG AUX have true ranks and a true ID to access bases.

Think objectively, is CAP really treated fairly compared to the CG AUX? the AF Leadership should stop giving CAP the make belief 3 year old treatment. If you know that CAP performs all these duties and is now part of the total force, stop treating CAP members like the forgotten step child when it comes to privileges.

It's a rant but I'm sure many have thought the same way. Long Live the USAF-AUX

So over hearing this bilge, but I'll play along.

1. It's used when on assigned mission, in accordance with the law. Read that and the CAP Constitution and By-Laws.
2. BX and commisary access is another thing that's controlled by law. Want to buy stuff at Class 6? Enlist. You're  not a military member. This has been beaten to death. Use the search function at the top for more detailed info.
3. CG Aux do not have ranks that mean JS outside their flotilla or division or organization as a whole. When they do CG work, they are called Auxiliarist, not "commander" or "lieutenant". Again, covered ad nauseum. Your captain rank indicated that you're a CAP captain. If you want federal recognition, I'd suggest contacting a recruiter.

CAP members get plenty of recognition from the DAF.

[winterg]

Since this is the first post by Yeager and appears to be intentionally inflammatory, I'm guessing obvious troll. With sentiments like this, I can only pray that they are not in a position to mentor cadets or newer members.

[Yeager]

Since this is the first post by Yeager and appears to be intentionally inflammatory, I'm guessing obvious troll. With sentiments like this, I can only pray that they are not in a position to mentor cadets or newer members.

If you think this is inflammatory, then you definitely can't distinguish between a true concern to trolling. So I so wish that you're not in any position to be teaching cadets leadership.

Speaking one's mind should not be considered as inflammatory. There is an element of truth known by all in what I have said. Now get off your high horses and I meant that in a respectful way.

[winterg]

Yeager. I stand by my statement. Your post displayed a serious lack of understanding of the nature of CAP and basically demanded that we get the same treatment as active, guard, and reserve Air Force. The tone and content were rather insulting to the tribute paid to us by the Air Force as if their including us was not enough for you. 

[Yeager]

I do think it's useless to bring any good points since the habitual offenders who push CAP as a forgotten step child are in full force. A debate cannot be had. Equality in treatment is what CAP deserves.

[Yeager]

Yeager. I stand by my statement. Your post displayed a serious lack of understanding of the nature of CAP and basically demanded that we get the same treatment as active, guard, and reserve Air Force. The tone and content were rather insulting to the tribute paid to us by the Air Force as if their including us was not enough for you.

If CAP stems from the AF even by using the same ranks, why then should CAP even be allowed to use rank that are exactly like the USAF but have no value anywhere else? Just call everyone either a cadet or senior member.

[winterg]

I do think it's useless to bring any good points since the habitual offenders who push CAP as a forgotten step child are in full force. A debate cannot be had. Equality in treatment is what CAP deserves.

Your points are completely invalid. We obviously are not a forgotten step child since the AF publicly acknowledged our inclusion.  And why would we ever receive equal benefits when we do not provide equal service.  What you want is the same benefits for less commitment. 

[winterg]

Yeager. I stand by my statement. Your post displayed a serious lack of understanding of the nature of CAP and basically demanded that we get the same treatment as active, guard, and reserve Air Force. The tone and content were rather insulting to the tribute paid to us by the Air Force as if their including us was not enough for you.

If CAP stems from the AF even by using the same ranks, why then should CAP even be allowed to use rank that are exactly like the USAF but have no value anywhere else? Just call everyone either a cadet or senior member.

So if you can't have it your way, just take it all away.  Haha. Good day Yeager. I hope you get the answers you are looking for.

[THRAWN]

Can you read? See my responses to your semiliterate initial post and do your homework. All of your "concerns" have been addressed before. Take some time to educate your self before you ramble on about the lack of "inclusion". Remember, "It's better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than open it and remove all doubt."

And are you in MA or MS? Can't decide?

[Yeager]

Yeager. I stand by my statement. Your post displayed a serious lack of understanding of the nature of CAP and basically demanded that we get the same treatment as active, guard, and reserve Air Force. The tone and content were rather insulting to the tribute paid to us by the Air Force as if their including us was not enough for you.

If CAP stems from the AF even by using the same ranks, why then should CAP even be allowed to use rank that are exactly like the USAF but have no value anywhere else? Just call everyone either a cadet or senior member.

So if you can't have it your way, just take it all away.  Haha. Good day Yeager. I hope you get the answers you are looking for.

like I said. The habitual offenders have spoken.

[Yeager]

Can you read? See my responses to your semiliterate initial post and do your homework. All of your "concerns" have been addressed before. Take some time to educate your self before you ramble on about the lack of "inclusion". Remember, "It's better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than open it and remove all doubt."

And are you in MA or MS? Can't decide?

I so think that you should take your own advice on this one. You just proved it. It's MS. I already have a fan club who is following me. Nice.

[SarDragon]

Yeager, I call your attention to the following posts for your reading pleasure:

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=13.0

and

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=4499.0

[TheSkyHornet]

Welcome to CAPTalk...

[abdsp51]

According to Urban Dictionary you are a troll.

troll

One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument

Troll posts in guise of rant demanding items not entitled
Troll gets called out on post
Troll responds with schoolyard antics

Troll's post is overall invalidated and Troll can't accept the fact it is.   

If Troll wants DOD priveleges troll can marry into DOD or raise his/her right hand, swear the oath of enlistment and obtain the appropriate credentials.

Until then Troll needs to go hide and reedumacate him/herself on the entirety of Total Force Concept and how it applies to the org.

[insertcallsignhere]

It just so happens that individuals who find it necessary to complain about CAP member access to installations have no business frequenting one themselves.

[jeders]

I reiterate...

Oh great and powerful mods, can we lock this preemptively, please.

[Nuke52]

I reiterate...

Oh great and powerful mods, can we lock this preemptively, please.

Not a big fan of free speech, eh?

The best way to deal with TROLLS is to ignore them.  If you don't feed the TROLL s/he will find some other forum to bother...

[jeders]

I reiterate...

Oh great and powerful mods, can we lock this preemptively, please.

Not a big fan of free speech, eh?

The best way to deal with TROLLS is to ignore them.  If you don't feed the TROLL s/he will find some other forum to bother...

I'm a big fan of free speech, but that's not the point. The point is that no good can come from this thread.

[JeffDG]

Also, let's remember, that CAP is part of the "Total Force" when they are operating on an Air Force Assigned Mission.  Same applies to the title "Airman"

The AF/Corporate distinction remains alive and well.

[Capt Thompson]

^^^^This

If you are on an extended mission for CAP, and Mission Base happens to be on a Military Facility, and you are billeting there, there are provisions to use the BX, commissary etc. When you're not on an Air Force Assigned Mission, you're not an Airman any more than you were before. As has been said before, if you want more access than you have, become a civilian employee of the DOD or enlist.

[TheSkyHornet]

Also, let's remember, that CAP is part of the "Total Force" when they are operating on an Air Force Assigned Mission.  Same applies to the title "Airman"

The AF/Corporate distinction remains alive and well.

So much more getting a bazooka issued, eh 

[Capt Thompson]

I had my eye on a nice A-10

[AlphaSigOU]

How much is that B-52 on the tarmac?

[THRAWN]

Hehe...once upon a time, there was a retired USAF GO who gave a speech at a wing conference. He gave a detailed plan about how he really would love to see a bunch of the smaller C-12s and similar types of platforms turned over to CAP. I guess now that we're part of the total force, we just get them, right?

[abdsp51]

^^^^This

If you are on an extended mission for CAP, and Mission Base happens to be on a Military Facility, and you are billeting there, there are provisions to use the BX, commissary etc. When you're not on an Air Force Assigned Mission, you're not an Airman any more than you were before. As has been said before, if you want more access than you have, become a civilian employee of the DOD or enlist.

Negative.  The only thing allowed for use upon approval is MWR and BX.  The commissary is not allowed for use at all.  And the commissary is it's own separate entity and now that they scan cards CAP will not be able to make purchases unless the member also has an approved DOD card.

[RRLE]

- At what point do we start using strictly the label USAF-AUX just like the CG AUX? Being part of the total force of the Air Force should qualify CAP to be officially called USAF-AUX. The CAP ID says on it

- Ranks. Even CG AUX have true ranks and a true ID to access bases.

First point - label. Never. Civil Air Patrol is the name of the organization and it is set in the US Code. It would take a literal act of Congress to change it.

Second point - Aux Rank. The Auxiliary does not have rank. The Auxiliary Manual is very clear about that. The Auxiliary has offices and titles of offices. Nor are most Auxie officers addressed by their office title. Only District Commodores and above (fairly high up the food chain) may be addressed with their title in front of their name. Auxie titles do not mimic Real Military titles. The highest title, Commodore, hasn't been used by the US military since circa WWII and maybe the Korean War. Other titles that have a partial military appearance, ie Captain, Commander, also have a qualifier in front of them, District Captain, Division and/or Flotilla Commander.

And a point that really bugs some Auxies, all Auxies regardless of office and insignia, are required by the Auxiliary Manual to salute all USCG officers. So the National Commodore (NACO) of the Aux, a three star, would salute the newest minted Ensign if they met. Enlisted personnel are not required t salute Auxie officers, also some do - some out of confusion.

[Nuke52]

I reiterate...

Oh great and powerful mods, can we lock this preemptively, please.

Not a big fan of free speech, eh?

The best way to deal with TROLLS is to ignore them.  If you don't feed the TROLL s/he will find some other forum to bother...

I'm a big fan of free speech, but that's not the point. The point is that no good can come from this thread.

I get it, but there's no reason to squelch people's freedom of expression--especially preemptively--if they're not violating any rules.  If some Johnny Appleseed wants to start yet another thread about how us now being Airmen and part of the Total Force^® means we should all be granted commissary access, DV suites at the 'Q, oh yeah, and don't forget:  ABUs!, let him. 

Who cares?  Ignore it.  Read a different thread.  Change the channel.  Go watch TV or read a book.  Ignoring trolls is the only way to make them go away.

YMMV.

[Nuke52]

How much is that B-52 on the tarmac?

Nahhh, you don't want one of those--they're oooooooollllllllllddddd.

[Nuke52]

The highest title, Commodore, hasn't been used by the US military since circa WWII and maybe the Korean War.

Umm, you sure about that, Chief?

(Although not necessarily a definitive source of information about anything, the internet can be your friend...) http://search.navy.mil/search?query=commodore&btnG=%C2%A0&utf8=%E2%9C%93&affiliate=navy_all

[SarDragon]

I get it, but there's no reason to squelch people's freedom of expression--especially preemptively--if they're not violating any rules.  If some Johnny Appleseed wants to start yet another thread about how us now being Airmen and part of the Total Force® means we should all be granted commissary access, DV suites at the 'Q, oh yeah, and don't forget:  ABUs!, let him. 

Who cares?  Ignore it.  Read a different thread.  Change the channel.  Go watch TV or read a book.  Ignoring trolls is the only way to make them go away.

YMMV.

This is essentially a private playground, where entry is a privilege, not a right. As such, the owner(s) may regulate who can play, and how they play. There's a Membership Code of Conduct that specifies the rules, and what happens when they are not followed. Trolling, for a variety of reasons, is discouraged. Like you said, "The best way to deal with TROLLS is to ignore them." But, shutting them off early is an even better way of dealing with them.

[abdsp51]

Plus freedom of speech is not entirely free or what people believe it is. 

[My Friends Call Me Spike]

I chose to join CAP just about the time the announcement came out about the Total Force.  I'm not sure that I understand what that means yet... but that doesn't matter.

I joined to serve my country using the abilities and skills I have cultivated through the years which happen to be skills that might be useful in a national emergency situation.  Somebody has to be prepared.  That looks to me like the CAP.

Rank is nice, being reimbursed quickly and fairly would be nice... lots of things would be nice, but those aren't the reasons why I love my country or want to be part of CAP.

I am here to be a better American, promote liberty, fight tyranny and serve my fellow Americans.

[abdsp51]

I am here to be a better American, promote liberty, fight tyranny and serve my fellow Americans.

And potential red flag here...

[PHall]

I am here to be a better American, promote liberty, fight tyranny and serve my fellow Americans.

And potential red flag here...

Yeah, check out his e-mail address....

[abdsp51]

I am here to be a better American, promote liberty, fight tyranny and serve my fellow Americans.

And potential red flag here...

Yeah, check out his e-mail address....

Maybe he/she flies for the CAF? And I mean the folks who restore the old WW II aircraft.  But that last line is standard anti gov, sovereign citizen doctrine. 

[Spam]

I chose to join CAP just about the time the announcement came out about the Total Force.  I'm not sure that I understand what that means yet... but that doesn't matter.

I joined to serve my country using the abilities and skills I have cultivated through the years which happen to be skills that might be useful in a national emergency situation.  Somebody has to be prepared.  That looks to me like the CAP.

Rank is nice, being reimbursed quickly and fairly would be nice... lots of things would be nice, but those aren't the reasons why I love my country or want to be part of CAP.

I am here to be a better American, promote liberty, fight tyranny and serve my fellow Americans.

Spike,

Welcome to CAP, in the spirit of our forerunners who fought the tyranny and aggression of foreign dictators and emperors, through flying border and coastal patrols.

I'm prepared to assume the best, on your part, until proven otherwise. Good on you, brother from Arkansas.

Very Respectfully,
Spam

[Spam]

I am here to be a better American, promote liberty, fight tyranny and serve my fellow Americans.

And potential red flag here...

Yeah, check out his e-mail address....

Nothing he has said is in any way divisive or defamatory in any way. I'm surprised and disappointed, frankly, that you'd take a cheap shot at him based on his email address, which you'd have to go active to look up.  Simply honoring Confederate ancestors or predecessors is grounds for insult?Your posts normally are so friendly and helpful, I can't see why you'd jump this way.

Way too quick to judge, gents, on far too little evidence.

V/R,
Spam

[abdsp51]

Sir,

There are alot of key words in the last line of his post that scream anti-gov and sovereign citizen as those words are used consistently in their doctrine and philosophies. 

Sorry, but I'd rather say something that looks like a red flag and have it be nothing than vice versa.  The poster may very well have honest intentions by what they posted, but still it's a red flag. 

[PHall]

Sir,

There are alot of key words in the last line of his post that scream anti-gov and sovereign citizen as those words are used consistently in their doctrine and philosophies. 

Sorry, but I'd rather say something that looks like a red flag and have it be nothing than vice versa.  The poster may very well have honest intentions by what they posted, but still it's a red flag.

Spam, I'm thinking pretty much the same thing.  And I would be very happy to be proven wrong.

[Spam]

OK, so you are following the "see something, say something" guidance. I get that and respect that position.  Yet, I am not so ready to rush to essentially publicly accuse someone of traitorous beliefs based on the simple use of words that seem "red flags" to you, coupled with some aspersions against a Southern heritage, in a first post here.

I need to point out to the both of y'all that the so called Sovereign Citizens are, with few exceptions, NOT JOINERS, being loosely organized anarchistic anti government types. Insofar as they have a common belief set stretching back to the Posse Comitatus movement in the '70s, it certainly does not include joining any organizations which require fingerprinting, background checks, and membership in a federally chartered nonprofit, nor occasional entry on to DoD installations and working closely with LE. Their one common enemy is the U.S. government and its agencies.

Since you want to cite "red flags", here's a commonly cited guide provided to law enforcement, which has a list of common terms peculiar to the movement: http://www.sog.unc.edu/sites/www.sog.unc.edu/files/Sov%20citizens%20quick%20guide%20Nov%2013.pdf. The use of terms such as "be a better American, promote liberty, fight tyranny and serve my fellow Americans" would seem to indict millions of patriotic Americans from Ben Franklin and the founding fathers, through Roosevelt (first presidential use of "fellow Americans") up through modern leaders and good Americans of all political parties and beliefs.

Plus freedom of speech is not entirely free or what people believe it is. 

Well, I see. Glad you gents are on duty here as the gate keepers and auditors. Again, you're jumping to judge on Post Number One from Spike. Lay off the guy already, and try giving the benefit of the doubt to new members, ok? I'd respectfully suggest you have a word of apology with Spike - quickly, to be polite? - and if he eventually turns out to go all Ruby Ridge on us, THEN, weapons free.

Holy cow, guys, "innocent until proven guilty"?


V/R,
Spam

[abdsp51]

Sir,

I am well aware of said indicators.  He used terms that are used by said personnel and organizations to promote their cause. 

SCOTUS has already ruled that there are limits on freedom of speech and those limits are constitutional. 

Sorry I see red flags based of it and have expressed what I see.  You do not have to agree with it or approve of it.

I see what I see and I am not changing my stance, nor apologising for raising the flag.  Sorry but it smells funny and is an indicator.  And those same gdoups twist what the founding fathers and true true patriots have stood for to twist and promote their agendas. 

[Spam]

OK, your call. Not that I'm trying to "squelch" your freedom of expression. I think you get my point too.

Sigh...

V/R,
Spam

[abdsp51]

It's not a 1st Amendment deal.  It's raising awareness of something that's sketch...

Could I be wrong?  You bet, but I'm gonna say something than sit quiet.

[Spam]

Well, yeah, I think it really is, actually, in terms of whether your assertions are libel versus your 1st Amendment free speech to assert a fact-based claim about seditious beliefs (based on one or two sentences). To just let this go without comment, in a site by and for CAP volunteers, could lower us to the lowest denominator of the web with schoolyard behavior and I think we're better than that.


You two have amply raised your points. Is there some action that you expect out of the rest of the world at this point by starting down this road of saying something?  Do you expect a guy to be banned for using "sketchy" phrases to your dissatisfaction? Care to share where these "sketchy" comments should logically lead from a ban from CT to NHQ/DP investigation? Referral to local law enforcement? Knocks on his door by a badge some night? Wiretap warrant? Come on, now...


Abdsp51, as you've said several times before on here, "the burden of proof is on you", which I've agreed with when you've challenged some claim or other that wasn't supported by CAP regs or via some other empirical means.  You've always been one of the guys on here who goes and looks stuff up - which I respect, as I respect you as an NCO, and former LE, if I remember correctly. So, here I see you making a claim with no substantiation to where the specific phrases used are defined as quote, "standard anti gov, sovereign citizen doctrine", and I want to hear more than just targeted claims.


Since true statements by definition can't be defamatory, you need to either establish with proof that he's one of the sovereign cit types, or at least make a positive case matching his statements to an objective standard.  Where then is this "standard" you speak of, if you want to be the gate keeper of patriotism and sedition?  I found one (cited in LE journals) which even lists common phrases, yet they're not in it. Where is yours?


V/R,
Spam


"Membership Code of Conduct
« on: February 09, 2005, 03:12:05 AM » 
Code of Conduct
•Members will not engage in libel, slander, name-calling, or personal attacks.  Members will not post any hateful material about any person, unit, or organization.  There is a line between leadership examples and scenarios, or having constructive discussions about problems without naming names, and attacking others outright.  Personal threats are also strictly prohibited".

[abdsp51]

Well, yeah, I think it really is, actually, in terms of whether your assertions are libel versus your 1st Amendment free speech to assert a fact-based claim about seditious beliefs (based on one or two sentences). To just let this go without comment, in a site by and for CAP volunteers, could lower us to the lowest denominator of the web with schoolyard behavior and I think we're better than that.


You two have amply raised your points. Is there some action that you expect out of the rest of the world at this point by starting down this road of saying something?  Do you expect a guy to be banned for using "sketchy" phrases to your dissatisfaction? Care to share where these "sketchy" comments should logically lead from a ban from CT to NHQ/DP investigation? Referral to local law enforcement? Knocks on his door by a badge some night? Wiretap warrant? Come on, now...


Abdsp51, as you've said several times before on here, "the burden of proof is on you", which I've agreed with when you've challenged some claim or other that wasn't supported by CAP regs or via some other empirical means.  You've always been one of the guys on here who goes and looks stuff up - which I respect, as I respect you as an NCO, and former LE, if I remember correctly. So, here I see you making a claim with no substantiation to where the specific phrases used are defined as quote, "standard anti gov, sovereign citizen doctrine", and I want to hear more than just targeted claims.


Since true statements by definition can't be defamatory, you need to either establish with proof that he's one of the sovereign cit types, or at least make a positive case matching his statements to an objective standard.  Where then is this "standard" you speak of, if you want to be the gate keeper of patriotism and sedition?  I found one (cited in LE journals) which even lists common phrases, yet they're not in it. Where is yours?


V/R,
Spam


"Membership Code of Conduct
« on: February 09, 2005, 03:12:05 AM » 
Code of Conduct
•Members will not engage in libel, slander, name-calling, or personal attacks.  Members will not post any hateful material about any person, unit, or organization.  There is a line between leadership examples and scenarios, or having constructive discussions about problems without naming names, and attacking others outright.  Personal threats are also strictly prohibited".

Spam,

1) We can go round and round on this one all day and night with neither giving ground. 

2) I am here to be a better American, promote liberty, fight tyranny and serve my fellow Americans. these are typical of most anti-govt organizations and sovereign citizens. 

    Promote liberty is usually used to force their own interpretation of what the Constitution says and there is no other interpretation.
   
    Fight tyranny in other words your laws and codes are unconstitutional and therefore do not apply to me or my family or friends and your attempts at enforcing them are harassing them and unjust and you are violating their common law rights.

3) Yes the burden of proof is always going to be on the one making a claim or allegation (neither of which I have done).  Yes I will look things up how else would I be able to know what I am talking about and have a leg to stand on?  Yes I am former LE and I have dealt with these types for 6 of the 12 years I was and when this first started becoming an issue comments such as the ones posted where briefed to keep an ear open for.

4) I have not in any shape or form claimed, presented as fact, or alleged that Spike whomever he/she is a member of an anti govt or a sovereign citizen type.  What I have said that line specifically those things are red flags to be based on my experience and training that are indicators that he or she may be.  I can tell had I heard him/her make that same comment in the course of any type of LE action it would be documented in my notebook, report narrative, and patrolman's statement. And 9 times out of 10 when I have a hunch I am right. 

Do I expect the mods to ban him/her from the forum no, do I expect the FBI, NSA, DHS or the local pd or so go knocking on his/her door based off of it no.  Do I feel NHQ needs to reexamine him/her no I don't. I do believe in saying something when something does not look or smell right and that's what I did. PHall concurred but we are two members here with the same opinion.  The email address like I have said maybe he/she flies for the restoration Confederate Air Force or maybe he/she flies and has some personal roots to folks who served in the Confederacy, does not bother me one bit and not the basis for my statement.

Plus it is not unheard of for these type of people to join the military or pd to receive training, intel and other items and take home with them to use against the govt.  Gangs have been practicing 4th gen urban warfare for a long time and there are members of anti govt groups serving in the military.

Could Spike be that honest to God, loves America apple pie baseball and a genuine patriot based upon upbringing and values?  You bet and if he/she is then I made a mistake and a bad call based off of my experience and training.  But if he/she isn't then I did my job in bringing the behavior to attention of the folks here and possibly the org.

I am not looking to be a gatekeeper or auditor for patriotism here I'm not clean cut enough for that. 

[whatevah]

Let's cut the losses... Lock.