Good Bye & Good Luck

[Cliff_Chambliss]

Seven months ago our old squadron folded and the members were looking for new squadron homes.  It was during this time that I realized that CAP just was not fun/rewarding any more and I decided it was time to fold my tent and go elsewhere.  Since the first of the year I have been in the Alabama Ghost Squadron, sometimes peeking into the e-services and the Alabama Wing Site just to see what was going on.  Tomorrow is my last day of membership and the card goes to the shredder.  I have already (months ago) removed/deleted as much information/skills/quals/etc for myself as I could.
  Seeing as I will no longer "have a dog in the fight" there will also no longer be a reason to return to Captalk either so the mods can feel free to delete my name from here as well.
  I have met some really outstanding folks in the CAP, both cadets and seniors and I wish them (and all those I have not met) well.  On the downside I have seen where CAP tends to run good people into the dirt until they quit.   
  Folks, I wish all you you well and blue skies. and with that said  I'm gone.

[AirAux]

Cliff, after 35 years I am also feeling unloved.  There just ain't any fun left in it.  It has gotten to the bean counting stage and has become as much drudgery as my real job.  I feel that we have lost touch with the cadets, we no longer have an ELT mission, and we train and retrain for non-existant activities.  I have worked the levels.  I have gotten the Masters.  It is not the program I joined as a Cadet in 1964 and rejoined in 1977.  As they say, don't let the door hit you in the butt on your way out, because I may be right behind you...

[capmaj]

+ 1

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Clear skies and following winds, Cliff.

My membership is up in June 2015.  I may be following you out that gate by then.

[Eclipse]

It's sad that even in CAP's backyard, long-term experienced members are finding CAP "isn't fun anymore".

[PHall]

Clear skies and following winds, Cliff.

My membership is up in June 2015.  I may be following you out that gate by then.

Wasn't just a month ago you were debating with yourself to renew or not?

So you dropped the bucks and renewed and now less then a month later you're already saying you're not going to renew.

You shouldn't have renewed...

And there's no way to get your money back either.

[NC Hokie]

Clear skies and following winds, Cliff.

My membership is up in June 2015.  I may be following you out that gate by then.

Wasn't just a month ago you were debating with yourself to renew or not?

Buyers remorse? 

On a serious note, every goodbye post I read here is another reminder to ensure that my squadron (which is all of CAP that I can control) is an engaging place for cadets and senior members to spend their time and treasure.

[Eclipse]

Did you actually voluntarily terminate or are you just walking away?

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Wasn't just a month ago you were debating with yourself to renew or not?

So you dropped the bucks and renewed and now less then a month later you're already saying you're not going to renew.

You shouldn't have renewed...

And there's no way to get your money back either.

"Debating with myself," yes.  At that time the debate resulted in a decision to renew.

I did not say I am not going to renew.  I said I may not renew next time around.  There is a fair bit of time between now and then.

It is not about the money.

[Simplex]

Always sorry to see someone with your knowledge and experience hit the door. But I fully understand your frustrations. It's not the same CAP, as you said, and the old expression CAP = Come and Pay is one of my pet peeves.

Thank you for your service both with CAP and the US Army. I noticed the 11th ACR and 2nd ACR as well as the MI Bn.
We trained with the 2ACR in Germany way back in the early 60's and the 11ACR was south of us in III or IV Corps while we were up in the highlands in II Corps.

Good bye and good luck to you also, Sir.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Good luck.

I haven't been to a meeting since mid-May. I wasn't even on CAPtalk for most of that time. Didn't find out about the new 39-1 until July 26th. When you hit a slump...you hit it hard. I'm hoping to bounce back. Maybe next Tuesday. Been saying that for 8 weeks though.

[Panache]

Godspeed.  Hope things work out.

[AlphaSigOU]

Good luck and Godspeed, Cliff.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I think a large part of what is afflicting CAP is just a sense of ennui, combined with an almost-schizoid loss of identity of what CAP is/was/should be.

The AUX ON/OFF change was a big kick in the head.  I do not care what the "reason" is/was.  A big part of our collective identity has been as the USAF Auxiliary.  We had to remove the "USAF AUX" from our aircraft and change our command shield.

Our three Congressionally-mandated missions have changed, or rather the world around us has changed, and we have not.  Some in CAP say that we are "all ES, all the time," which is simply untrue.  Others say our AE mission is obsolescent and has no relevance - again untrue.  My squadron has a go-getter AE officer and we are very deeply involved in AEX.  Cadets - It could be said with some truth that compared to ROTC, our CP has little value, especially to the USAF, whose favourite child is definitely JROTC.  However, not all schools have JROTC.  We have done an extremely poor job of recruiting young people to our cadet programme.  I knew nothing of it (or CAP, period) when I was a kid.  I would have gone for it in a big way.  And there are the senior squadrons (not all, of course, but they do exist - I know from experience) who want absolutely nothing to do with cadets and will do everything they can to wiggle out of O-rides...or, if they do them, BMW about having to do it.

When I joined CAP, I was told that the squadron is the heart of our operations.  However, if the ennui has pervaded the squadron where they just do not care any more, or worse, care about whether members are there or not, something is diseased with that "heart."  Even in my own experience with some units I have been part of, if a member does not show up without giving notice as to why, the squadron is too often content to either let them fade into the night and fog or just shunt them to the "ghost" squadron.  And if said member does show, too often it's "Oh, it's you again."  Not a good "we value our people" motivator.

And then there are - of course, you knew it would rear its ugly head! - uniforms.  The latest 39-1 demonstrates that NUC, NHQ or whatever alphabet-soup combination has responsibility for such has obviously decided "status quo is the way to go."  Like it or not, admit to it or not, we have a two-tier uniform non-system.  There is precious little anyone in CAP can do about the USAF uniforms - it is their uniform, it is our privilege to wear it, period.  However, the powers that be have elected to keep those who cannot/will not wear the AF uniform in a series of uniforms that follow the fallacious argument of "separate but equal," when they clearly are not.  A visitor to an average squadron meeting would probably have trouble recognising the members as part of the same organisation.

I have said this before, but unless there is a true top-to-bottom shakedown of this organisation - including the bitter possibility that we are not relevant as we are currently constituted - it is just going to be the same ol' [mess] and we will continue to haemorrhage members.

[AirAux]

CyBorg, your post hit a nail with me.  I hadn't thought about it, but I am older now, so much older than when I began this trek and somehow the pounds have increased.  I know it, it's all my fault and I should do something about it, but really?  I am 68 years old and with my arthritis, I doubt I will be busting out the exercise mats anytime soon.  When I get in the front leaning rest, I stay there until someone helps me up.  Anyhow, I still have a picture of me in my Air Force uniform getting my second Lieutenant bars pinned on in 77-78.  Well, I have been relegated to the second class uniform for many years, all the while thinking I would someday, somehow, slip back into my Air Force Blues.  Ain't gonna happen.  And yes, it bothers me.  Recently went to a Commanders Call and had to wear the Corporate Uniform.  Strange, the Wing Commander and several Squadron commanders and Deputy Commanders were in Air Force Blues and were definately over the weight limit.  Not a lot, but enough to look crappy.  You know, bellies over belts??  Anyhow, your post made me think, wouldn't we all be better with a Corporate uniform that matched for everybody?  We are not Air Force.  We will never be activated for the Air Force.  We have no need to ever wear the Air Force uniform.  Let the cadets wear them as a recruiting tool for the Air Force, but have all adults in the same uniform to make us, uhhhh, uniform??   Unless you have had to wear the Corportate Uniform while others are wearing the Air Force one, you do not know how it makes you feel like you don't really belong.  Since we are our own organization and have been around longer than the Air Force, why don't we try to develop pride in our selves with our own uniform.  I think part of the malaise we are now finding our organization in is that we recruit new members that see the Air Force uniform and think that as an organization we work with the Air Force.  When they realize we don't, they become disillusioned and drift away.  Anyhow, just the thoughts of an old dog, drifting away, and trying to make sense of it all.       

[catrulz]

I believe in most case CAP does an excellent job with the cadet program.  However, JROTC is funded and professionally taught by retired military officers and NCO's.  Many school districts also required teaching certifications (and always have) and the ROTC instructors are in some cases teaching other courses as well.

I was both a 4 year JROTC and CAP cadet, and I got much more from the JROTC experience (plus better rewards wwhen I enlisted after high school).  I had an excellent DCOC and I respected him just as much as I respected my JROTC instructors.  But, it was obvious which taught more, and provided better value.  You participate in ROTC 5 hours a week and CAP 2.5 hours a week.  So just in time spent, there is a huge difference between the programs.

Most of the problems with CAP stem from either healthy or dysfunctional relationships.  Most of this boils down to politics.  If there is a healthy command structure in place, then politics are minimized.  I have always found it interesting that in the military your Chain of Command at all levels, had an open door policy.  As a private I could talk to my Brigade Commander as long an I went through channels to get to that particular door.  This only seems to be the case in CAP to Group Level.  After that, if you do something wrong you are branded as trouble maker and no-one wants anything to do with you anymore.  Leadership is psycology 101.  Even when people mess up there was a motivation.  It's easier to alienate or ignore, than it is to make a phone call to figure out what actually occured and why.  Politics and dysfunctional relationships destroy what fun there is in CAP.

Case in point:

There is guy in our unit that is up for LtCol meets all the training criteria, with 14years in the program, I have seen it said that promotions in CAP recognize PD accomplishment, but I have to demonstrate why this individual is over qualified, the statement of qualification on the form was not sufficient.  Too me this is a statement that this promotion is not to recognize accomplished training, but to decide politically if he desired with the LtCol's club.  This gets old because of the extra effort, but also becuase it makes it easier for the folks above to say no (just because!).   I will go through the effort, because in my opinion, we need to take care of our folks, break our backs if neccessary to make it happen.  It sure would more productive to work on something else however.

I've stepped away twice, and I'm never sure until the day I'm due if I'm going to rejoin.  There have been alot of valid opinions above.   

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

AirAux, I share many of your concerns.  I am just shy of 50, so I do not have your wealth of experience, though I have been in-and-out of CAP a few times over the past 20 years.  I do not want to turn this into a uniform thread, but I believe uniforms to be the most visible manifestation of the schizoid nature I talked about.

Really, except for the higher echelons, and a relative few fortunate units on AF/AFRES/ANGB installations, our Air Force connection is increasingly "in-name-only."

As far as our own uniform, I would be in favour of that.  We had a nice uniform (the CSU) and it was killed for, to me, no valid reason (MSgt Harris, I know how you feel about this opinion so you need not say so again).  I would not be in favour of the current "tricked-out-IACE-uniform-with-Realtor-jacket" being made our sole "distinctive" uniform.  As I have said several times on this forum, I hate it and think it is plainly ugly.  It has no connection with aviation, military or civil.

I actually have early-onset-of-arthritis because of a car wreck I was in and vigorous exercise is out of the question for me.

I think that the main interest the Air Force retains in us is cadets...because it means potential warm bodies through the gates of Lackland.  Outside that, most of them do not even know who we are.

Catrulz, you said some good things as well.  My first CAP squadron had several dual-status CAP/JROTC cadets.  Several quit CAP to focus on JROTC.

I remember way, way back in the mists of time at Air Force BMT my MTI asked if any of us had JROTC experience.  One recruit put his hand up and said "Sir, I have similar experience in the Civil Air Patrol..."   The TI descended on him in fury and said "I SAID JROTC!  I DID NOT ASK ABOUT THE [farg]ING CIVIL AIR PATROL!"

And you are also correct about the dysfunctional politics.  It seems that no matter what is done, the GOB/GN will remain in place in one form or another.

[Panzerbjorn]

I suppose I just have one thing to contribute to this as far as uniforms go....

If I'm not allowed to look like a soldier, how can you expect me to act like a soldier?

[catrulz]

Yeah, when I went to basic they knew the PFC's and PV2's were JROTC, so they ended up being squad leaders and platoon guide (trainee platoon sergeant). 

I think most vets probably feel, hey I served my country why am I barred from wearing a military uniform.  But, the rules are made by the parent.  I have commented in another thread CAP should develop a corporate uniform that is military like.  My opinion is everyone, cadets and Seniors should wear it (Once again I vote khakis, best uniform I ever wore).  Then we would be uniform.  But honestly, is the uniform the biggest problem faced by our volunteers?  You can't even get some people to wear a uniform!

I think we are a para-military organization with a volunteer identity crisis, and that prevents good communication within the membership.  Many different types of members have a totally different take on what CAP really represents or about.  For instance, what is the chain of command.  I can tell you that what most CAP members consider the CoC is not.  The military has two chains, a chain of authority (chain of Command) and a staff chain (the support chain).  another example, in some units, members address each other by rank and last name, but many units it's first name.  And even another example, some units are great at exercising and enforcing customs and courtesies and others don't worry about it (not even with the cadets).  The differences in the way the program is administered by various individuals and groups create friction when attempting to interface with non-like minded individuals and groups.  Yes, we have regulations and manuals, and yet no two people would administer the progam alike.

One of the problems we face, is a large core of our adult membership is cadet parentage that join to support the cadet (and we do need these people, without them we would be an incredibly small organization) who have no interest in the military aspect of the program.  Working with volunteers is also no comparable to military management.  Which is why standardization and communication up and down is so important.

[Eclipse]

Which is why standardization and communication up and down is so important.

How this simple concept continues to escape CAP is beyond me, especially when you consider the relative credentials and
experience purported across the echelons of the leadership. There's simply no way for an organization as large and distributed as
CAP to be successful without standardization, clear communication, and enforcement of those standards.

CAP's track record of success is anecdotal, circumstantial, and generally based on specific personalities, it is not
institutional in nature, nor is it due to any specific strategic planning or management, and it certainly does not come close to
living up to its potential, or even the investment made by the American people.  In nearly all cases it is because
"somebody" woke up and decided to "be in CAP" for a while, and was able to get some like-minded people locally to come along for the ride.
When that person or small group has had enough, the success wither and people tend to forget they even happened, meanwhile the
checkboxers who weren't doing anything before, or during, continue their doing nothing and hardly notice the difference.

It doesn't have to be that way, but it always has since I've been in.

[catrulz]

I was in an SDF until recently, that thought morale suffered because the TAG wouldn't allow us to wear ACU's.  When I walked around during AT, I didn't see any evidence of this poor morale.  I saw motivated soldiers in obsolete but sharply worn uniforms, that acted professionally.  And the politics were minimal, communication was good.  But the entire force was like minded, there wasn't differing opinions on the mission or levels of participation.  There was pride from performing well and to a standard.  I can't swallow that uniforms (or lack of a proper uniform) are causing the current issues in this organization.  Yes it could be different, maybe better, but it works now (and yes I wear the corporate uniform not the Air Force).

When you join the military or the NG/reserves or a SDF, you know you are joining a military organization.  Everyone practices customs and courtesies, everyone uses proper forms of address, everyone wears the same uniform the same way.  The regulations are adhered too, and there is discipline.  But the mind set is incorporated into the overall structure and culture of the organization.  You are not regular Army, you are not National Guard, but you try and perform to the Army standard.

CAP's identity crisis stems from having SM's that are looking at the program from 360 different directions.  If I a SM that's in supporting my cadet son/daughter, I get assigned personnel, I'm not properly supervised, I don't bother to read the regulations.  What is going to happen, do you suppose?  Or I'm a pilot with 1000 hours on Cessna 172's, brand new in CAP though, obviously I can just climb into a CAP aircraft and start flying SAR right?

[Eclipse]

CAP's identity crisis stems from having SM's that are looking at the program from 360 different directions.  If I a SM that's in supporting my cadet son/daughter, I get assigned personnel, I'm not properly supervised, I don't bother to read the regulations.  What is going to happen, do you suppose?  Or I'm a pilot with 1000 hours on Cessna 172's, brand new in CAP though, obviously I can just climb into a CAP aircraft and start flying SAR right?

This.

Stars and eagles should be reading and heeding the above.

[ironputts]

Cyborg, I also wish you all the luck. I have a feeling you will return as many like you that have invested so much in this organization. I am 23 years with several breaks in between. I stay because of the cadets and the opportunity to work with young people. My wife says I go to CAP to experience something outside of work and family. I think she is right. It is hard at times to be in CAP but there are times I wouldnt want to be anywhere else. Keep the faith all wherever you choose to go and do. Volunteering is essential for our nation!

[Майор Хаткевич]

One thing that hits hard, maybe even harder than I expected, is "my way or no way", " us vs. Them", behind the back talk, fake respect on display, hell even "office" politics. We're all on the same team, but perhaps in spirit only. Units vs units, groups vs groups, wings vs wings. Members vs member. That WILL wear you down.

[AirAux]

Part of the problem is that we are not Military and never will be.  We once were a little brother of the Air Force.  We went to summer encampment on Air Force Bases.  We got military orientation flights.  We got to ride to Wright-Patterson on Air Force Aircraft.  We thought we belonged.  The Air Force has very little use for us anymore and it shows.  We need to get out of the military uniform and become the corporate structure they want us to be.  The Boy Scouts don't wear military uniforms, but they accomplish their mission.  I think we all need to be in one uniform no matter what it is and stand up for the identity of Civil Air Patrol and the heritage we come from.  It may be time for the military want-a-bees to depart to the SDF or something.  We are floundering and no one seems to care.   

[Eclipse]

One thing that hits hard, maybe even harder than I expected, is "my way or no way", " us vs. Them", behind the back talk, fake respect on display, hell even "office" politics. We're all on the same team, but perhaps in spirit only. Units vs units, groups vs groups, wings vs wings. Members vs member. That WILL wear you down.

This is what happens when people are allowed to self-initiate and self-actualize with a limited pool of resources and time and no
one coming into the room and telling people to "knock it off". or for that matter even being all that interested in what people
are doing, until it's so far gone it's too late to intervene.

[Eclipse]

In the context of a "mission" conversation, you can't compare CAP to the BSA, or for that matter to anything else.

CAP is unique in its charter and structure.

[catrulz]

Part of the problem is that we are not Military and never will be.  We once were a little brother of the Air Force.  We went to summer encampment on Air Force Bases.  We got military orientation flights.  We got to ride to Wright-Patterson on Air Force Aircraft.  We thought we belonged.  The Air Force has very little use for us anymore and it shows.  We need to get out of the military uniform and become the corporate structure they want us to be.  The Boy Scouts don't wear military uniforms, but they accomplish their mission.  I think we all need to be in one uniform no matter what it is and stand up for the identity of Civil Air Patrol and the heritage we come from.  It may be time for the military want-a-bees to depart to the SDF or something.  We are floundering and no one seems to care.

AirAux, I agree.  But what we do need it to be on the same page.  When one unit thinks they are about one thing and another thinks they are something else, it makes conversations between those groups difficult to say the least.  I don't think CAP should be military.  I do believe it should define itself, create a standard based on that definition, and then enforce that standard and image.

[SamFranklin]

I suggest that this thread isn't productive. Too many generalizations about conditions in particular units; local problems don't necessarily produce systemic problems. Some generalizations are mutually exclusive: my way or highway is said to be wrong but our lack of military style organization is also a supposed weakness (though it'd produce more unilateral decisions).  And those who say the "Air Force" dislikes us haven't been paying attention. They invited us to Corona for goodness sake. contrary to one person's claims, cadets do go to encampment on AFBs (depending on the wing) and get military oflights (in some locations). 

As a 30+ year person I say the good old days weren't as good as some imagine. CAP is better than ever all around.

YMMV

[AirAux]

And there in lies the rub.  As a 30+ year person, I say CAP pretty much sucks.  JMHO.

[FW]

In about two weeks, another member will take the office of National Commander and CEO of CAP.  He will be responsible for leading us for the next three years.  Will things change? Of course.  How? I have no idea, however I will do what I can to see we don't fail.  Then again, no one asked...

[Eclipse]

I suggest that this thread isn't productive. Too many generalizations about conditions in particular units; local problems don't necessarily produce systemic problems.

And I'd suggest that until CAP starts accepting and acknowledging these issues, these systemic problems will persist and get worse.

The things we're discussing in this thread are far from "local issues".

[Eclipse]

In about two weeks, another member will take the office of National Commander and CEO of CAP.  He will be responsible for leading us for the next three years.  Will things change? Of course.  How? I have no idea, however I will do what I can to see we don't fail.  Then again, no one asked...

And that's the real problem, isn't it?  No one asking, and the new governance means no need to make any promises or commitments publicly.

I know there are a couple of unattributable, double-secret, back channel initiatives which were at one point being touted as nearly "done"
and now have gone silent.  These would potentially bring some much-needed shakeup to the glass.  If those are announced in the new
CC's first speech, you'll have my attention.

Even a "day-1, week-1, month-1, year-1" strategic plan or at least high-level S.M.A.R.T. goals would be refreshing, but if it's just
"carrying on the legacy of honor and success, etc., etc., well, there you go...

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Part of the problem is that we are not Military and never will be.  We once were a little brother of the Air Force.  We went to summer encampment on Air Force Bases.  We got military orientation flights.  We got to ride to Wright-Patterson on Air Force Aircraft.  We thought we belonged.  The Air Force has very little use for us anymore and it shows. 

I have been very disconcerted (bordering on bitterness) at this unfortunate truth.  Yes, I know that those in the AF controlling the purse strings do right by us in terms of funding, and it may well be that the brass at AU/AETC/1AF praise what we do.  However, very, very little of that trickles down to the average CAP member, in my experience.  When I first joined CAP in 1993 I remember getting generally warm welcomes, "thanks for what you do," etc. from the Air Force.  That meant a lot to me.  However, as time went on, I noticed less of a warm welcome and would overhear comments about "those CAPpies think they're in the Air Force, etc."

We need to get out of the military uniform and become the corporate structure they want us to be.  The Boy Scouts don't wear military uniforms, but they accomplish their mission.  I think we all need to be in one uniform no matter what it is and stand up for the identity of Civil Air Patrol and the heritage we come from.  It may be time for the military want-a-bees to depart to the SDF or something.  We are floundering and no one seems to care.

Respectful disagreement.  Our heritage is military, going all the way back to the USAAF.  The first Air Medal was awarded to a CAP member (I think), and now we are not even eligible for the bloody thing, nor are we eligible for Air Force civilian awards...not even the civilian version of the Air Medal!

We have lost a good chunk of our military heritage through our own machinations, largely throughout the late '90s and early '00s.  CAP was restructured into a far more corporate model by our own choosing, by people who wanted to have their cake and eat it too.  Meaning: they wanted Air Force funding, but they didn't want the AF "interfering" in their "corporate" operations.  I think that had a huge deal to do with our current distance from the AF.

Now, I am not saying we are a military service.  We are not.  However, unless/until/whenever/if the Air Force decides we are no longer needed, we are still the Air Force Auxiliary (to the smouldering pits of Gre'thor with the AUX ON/OFF bullcrackie) and I am not going to act otherwise.

Eclipse has rightly said that there are questions - hard questions - that need to be asked.  One would be a straight-out enquiry to the Air Force:

"Do you need us?  Yes or No!"

Unfortunately, no-one seems to be willing to ask the question to clarify our status vis-a-vis the Air Force.  If the Air Force says "yes," then they should start employing us more.  If "no," without AF funding CAP will die anyway, and I can accept that.  Nothing temporal lasts forever.  The RAF disbanded their long-serving Royal Observer Corps after the end of the Cold War.

If we go "completely corporate," and our public funding dries up, we will not last long.

Unfortunately, not everyone has the option of joining an SDF.  SDF's vary widely on who they will accept.  There is one in my state, but I have medical conditions that preclude me from joining their ranks.

[Eclipse]

We went to summer encampment on Air Force Bases.  We got military orientation flights. 

Um...CAP still does those things all the time.

The lack of military resources has little to do with whether the USAF still needs CAP.   You can blame 20 years of BRAC for that.
In the 90's my state had at least 4 good-sized USAF bases, several major Naval facilities, and a fair number of Guard bases.

Now it has one USAF base, well away from the major population centers of the state, and one major naval facility, and one major
guard base (and all are generous to CAP).  Beyond that, it's a handful of small guard bases and a few administrative reserve centers.

That's pretty much the case in most wings.  The stone has no blood left to give, but that doesn't mean it isn't doing what it can.

[LTC Don]

Everyone is in their own little self pitying bubble. And working with precious little information to justify opinions.

We have multiple major military installations in our state.  We have active squadrons meeting on three of them, once of which is a Marine air station.  Our annual Region Cadet Leadership School has been held over at least the last three years at the only major Air Force base, Seymour Johnson (of which one of those three local units is based).  At least until recently due to a PCS, the Seymour Johnson base commander's son was a member in that local unit (who recently completed POD training during a Disaster Relief Workshop the wing held.....on base).

So, in some areas the relationship with the military is pretty good, in others, maybe not so much OR there isn't much military to have a relationship with.

Be careful how wide a swath you cast with the paintbrush.

[JeffDG]

There's simply no way for an organization as large and distributed as
CAP to be successful without standardization, clear communication, and enforcement of those standards.

I can't adequately express how much I disagree profoundly with this statement.

Many organizations much larger than CAP are successful because they encourage initiative and ingenuity, not because they standardize everything.  Large organizations need to put people in place to manage their part of the organization, and trust them to actually do so.  If you are putting people in charge of components of the organization that you don't trust to exercise judgement, and you must constrain them with excessive standards, then you're putting the wrong people in place.

Large organizations that attempt to standardize everything fail as a result of micro-management.  They strangle as a result of people not being able to actually do the things they need to do to accomplish their mission.

[arajca]

There's simply no way for an organization as large and distributed as
CAP to be successful without standardization, clear communication, and enforcement of those standards.

I can't adequately express how much I disagree profoundly with this statement.

Many organizations much larger than CAP are successful because they encourage initiative and ingenuity, not because they standardize everything.  Large organizations need to put people in place to manage their part of the organization, and trust them to actually do so.  If you are putting people in charge of components of the organization that you don't trust to exercise judgement, and you must constrain them with excessive standards, then you're putting the wrong people in place.

Large organizations that attempt to standardize everything fail as a result of micro-management.  They strangle as a result of people not being able to actually do the things they need to do to accomplish their mission.

Significant difference: Those organizations most likely have a clearly defined mission, set goals to accomplish the mission, and clear expectations for their local units. In general, CAP lacks all three of those. Once you have a clearly defined mission and goals, you can let the local units take the initiative and use their judgement to accomplish the mission.

[LTC Don]

There's nothing wrong with standardization as long as micro-managing doesn't become the defacto standard.

My brother (retired USAF firefighter) once showed me some pictures of an un-identified tragedy showing what was once an Airman shredded in about three pieces.

The former Airman tackled a repair job on a fighter that involved a component under a very high amount of pressure.  The Airman loosened the wrong components in the wrong order and thus ended his life rather abruptly.

He failed to follow standardized procedure and took shortcuts. Standardized procedures are in place for a wide variety of reasons, many of them safety based.

I also, just today, read an email from a now current member, but who resigned several years ago, in part because while at a meeting, the Group Commander decreed that all cadet activities must come across his desk and be approved before the activity could be executed.  This ruling basically instituted a rather draconian system that only served to demoralize the subordinate units. The member decided if things were going to be micromanaged that badly, then CAP was no place for him. This member has now returned and is quite active.  Of course, the Group Commander is no longer in command and other events have transpired over the years so the environment is more positive.

Micromanagement is always an issue, but is also a sign that there isn't enough training happening to make sure 'standardization' is being properly fielded to the masses. When training is well attended and instruction is high-speed, confidence (and morale) levels increase all around and life is (generally) good.

[JeffDG]

There's simply no way for an organization as large and distributed as
CAP to be successful without standardization, clear communication, and enforcement of those standards.

I can't adequately express how much I disagree profoundly with this statement.

Many organizations much larger than CAP are successful because they encourage initiative and ingenuity, not because they standardize everything.  Large organizations need to put people in place to manage their part of the organization, and trust them to actually do so.  If you are putting people in charge of components of the organization that you don't trust to exercise judgement, and you must constrain them with excessive standards, then you're putting the wrong people in place.

Large organizations that attempt to standardize everything fail as a result of micro-management.  They strangle as a result of people not being able to actually do the things they need to do to accomplish their mission.

Significant difference: Those organizations most likely have a clearly defined mission, set goals to accomplish the mission, and clear expectations for their local units. In general, CAP lacks all three of those. Once you have a clearly defined mission and goals, you can let the local units take the initiative and use their judgement to accomplish the mission.

The fact that CAP is using "standardization" as a crutch for not having clearly defined missions and objectives doesn't mean that the only way a large organization can function is with standardization.

[Tim Medeiros]

I'm just going to leave this here, since obviously some people don't know about it.

http://www.capmembers.com/file.cfm/media/blogs/documents/20142015_CAP_STRATEGIC_PLAN_C5FF6C3147C15.pdf

[Shuman 14]

I was in an SDF until recently, that thought morale suffered because the TAG wouldn't allow us to wear ACU's.  When I walked around during AT, I didn't see any evidence of this poor morale.  I saw motivated soldiers in obsolete but sharply worn uniforms, that acted professionally.  And the politics were minimal, communication was good.  But the entire force was like minded, there wasn't differing opinions on the mission or levels of participation.  There was pride from performing well and to a standard.  I can't swallow that uniforms (or lack of a proper uniform) are causing the current issues in this organization.  Yes it could be different, maybe better, but it works now (and yes I wear the corporate uniform not the Air Force).

When you join the military or the NG/reserves or a SDF, you know you are joining a military organization.  Everyone practices customs and courtesies, everyone uses proper forms of address, everyone wears the same uniform the same way.  The regulations are adhered too, and there is discipline.  But the mind set is incorporated into the overall structure and culture of the organization.  You are not regular Army, you are not National Guard, but you try and perform to the Army standard.

CAP's identity crisis stems from having SM's that are looking at the program from 360 different directions.  If I a SM that's in supporting my cadet son/daughter, I get assigned personnel, I'm not properly supervised, I don't bother to read the regulations.  What is going to happen, do you suppose?  Or I'm a pilot with 1000 hours on Cessna 172's, brand new in CAP though, obviously I can just climb into a CAP aircraft and start flying SAR right?

Yes, but everyone in in your SDF are in the SAME uniform, not skinny guys/gals in ACUs and fluffy guys/gals in BDUs.

SDFs are different from the ARNG, and if your TAG directs for the SDF to be in a different uniform... so be it. But he didn't set up a second class status WITHIN the organization itself.

See the difference.

[Shuman 14]

I'm just going to leave this here, since obviously some people don't know about it.

http://www.capmembers.com/file.cfm/media/blogs/documents/20142015_CAP_STRATEGIC_PLAN_C5FF6C3147C15.pdf

Thanks for the link, interesting read.

[Eclipse]

I'm just going to leave this here, since obviously some people don't know about it.

http://www.capmembers.com/file.cfm/media/blogs/documents/20142015_CAP_STRATEGIC_PLAN_C5FF6C3147C15.pdf

Yep - pretty much equal to the CAC Pamphlet - lots of rehtoric and management speak, few details.  This checked someone's box.

Considering it has a date of May 2014, someone should have reviewed it for accuracy.  As an example, CAP hasn't had "1500+ units"
in probably a decade, nor has it had "60,000+" members since sometime in 2004.  Someone did a lot of cutting and pasting to create this
and no one bothered to read it.  Glaring errors like that put the entire document in question.

At best this is a framework.  A "plan" requires resources, timelines, and deliverables.

[RiverAux]

I'm just going to leave this here, since obviously some people don't know about it.

http://www.capmembers.com/file.cfm/media/blogs/documents/20142015_CAP_STRATEGIC_PLAN_C5FF6C3147C15.pdf

Guess they're not into measurable goals...

[razgrizraven]

In fact myself, CAP has gotten on the nerves. I've been spied, and lied on. My commanders above me have performed so many unethical actions (Literally through the book out the window and act against policy as well as competence), and what do I have to show for it, nothing. I did all I could do with my messed situations. I will probably earn my beret, ranger tape, and 1st Lieutenant. Wright Brothers #21,138.

[JeffDG]

In fact myself, CAP has gotten on the nerves. I've been spied, and lied on. My commanders above me have performed so many unethical actions (Literally through the book out the window and act against policy as well as competence), and what do I have to show for it, nothing. I did all I could do with my messed situations. I will probably earn my beret, ranger tape, and 1st Lieutenant. Wright Brothers #21,138.

Those are some pretty serious allegations you're throwing around there.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Those are some pretty serious allegations you're throwing around there.

Not to mention potentially libellous.

Cadet, you are young.  There is a lot to learn about the world in general - not just CAP - and at almost 50 years old I realise that the older I get, the less I know.

However, one thing I know from experience, as well as 15+ years as an IT, that nothing you post in cyberspace is private.

There are ways that those in the IT field can find out who you are...believe me, it is not hard...and CAP does have IT professionals.

I am not trying to scare you.  I am telling you, old guy to young person and Captain to Cadet, to take care with what you say here on CT.