Civilians in the civil air patrol.

[jgdeleon31]

When I was active duty we also pt'd every single day under rain, cold weather, even in iraq in 2003 in the middle of a 120deg temps, and now that I'm in the Army Reserve I'm in a unit that does a pt test every months and to pass you have to score 80% minimum on each event.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Sergeant Garcia:

Stand down for a moment, please.

First - we are ALL civilians in the CAP, uniformed civilians, with the exception of the CAP-USAF personnel and ANG/AFRES personnel assigned to "oversee" us.

Second - A senior member of any rank should NOT be yelling at cadets, or anyone yelling at anyone for that matter.  I have never tried to play Drill Sergeant in CAP and if someone were to do it to me, I would politely say, "Sir/Ma'am, when you can speak to me in a civilised manner, I will be happy to address your concerns."

Third - Eclipse is 100% right.  This is a PEOPLE issue.  Believe me, I've seen some bad actors in the actual military too...but they can be dealt with through the UCMJ.  Our disciplinary procedures are much different.

My father was in the United States Army - two years active, two years National Guard.  I have the utmost respect for the Army.  I served alongside a former Army Drill Sergeant and respected him greatly.  However, he knew - as you should - that the tactics of a Drill Sergeant, Drill Instructor, Military Training Instructor, Company Commander or Recruit Commander are not suitable for CAP.  What you can do in Basic Training can easily cross the line into hazing in CAP.

Also, I doubt a "400 pound guy" could pass an FAA flight physical, much less be a pilot in CAP.

There are those who do pretend they're in the military in CAP - and you will find them as well in the CGAUX, NSCC, etc.  Those are the ones who joined for the wrong reasons.  Usually the bad actors either adjust or find they don't go very far.

Weight is an issue in the CAP - just as it is in all of American society in general.  As a society, we are way too obese.  Some of it is due to bad diet/exercise, but some of it also has to do with hormones, thyroid issues, medication side-effects, etc.  And some of us are just getting older.  I know at 45 I'm not the slender beanpole I was at 25.

BTW, my unit CC is a retired Marine.

I echo what others have said...if you feel the need to be confrontational whenever someone "opens their mouth," you should not be surprised you are having issues in CAP.

Maybe this organisation is not right for you.  Maybe it is.  Only you can come to that conclusion.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I understand where you are coming from Garcia. Having been active as a cadet, then going into the Army and now a SM. When I was in the Army I went to a couple of meetings at the local squadron and watched the active duty Army soldiers that had been cadets interacting with the cadets. I talked with them about how they shouldn't be yelling at the cadets the way they were, and I did it with respect. It got me into some trouble being that one of them was an NCO in my battalion. I couldn't get through to them and decided not to join at that time and that I didn't want to be associated with them.

There is only one time to yell, and that is if someone is doing something dangerous and won't listen or if someone is in danger. Other than that no one should be yelling.

There are certain things that can come and cross over into CAP from the military and if you have that knowledge, share it, don't horde it so that you can be hot [mess]. I can understand that that is how you are, you share your knowledge with those that will listen, and for that I am grateful.

You know what they say, stay in your lane and watch your targets.

[jgdeleon31]

Well CyBorg, first of all yes a big man can pass a first class physical to be a pilot, go look at the regionals now days, we have a bunch of obese pilot, my point when it comes to that is that if you don't meet the height and weight, don't wear the uniform, and actually that's in the regs. 

Second at the squadron I sure don't bring my Drill mentality into play, I do know I'm dealing with kids, and around most of this civilians who act the part they don't need to be acting well I ignore them until they approach me with an attitude and then I try to handle it the best I can, now in front of cadets, trust me I will bite my tongue and handle it different.

Now is CAP not for me? well lets say joined back in 1994 as a cadet and I enjoy being in it. This is the first time I have express myself like this and I feel I should of done it a long time ago.  Everyone should follow the regs and there should be no exception to height and weight when it comes to uniform.

We do have a SM that yells at cadets, the one I was referring and he's statements last night were not appropriate, my cc was there and parents and no one complaint, good for him then. 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Sergeant Garcia:

I know what is in the regs at least as well as you do.  I have a Master rating in Administration, which goes all the way back to when I first joined CAP (1993) as an SMWOG in the hated berry boards era.  That included many hours of having The Big Blue Binder of Regulations and Manuals discombubulated on my living room floor with endless attachments and addenda inserted making sure that the regs were up-to-date, when you had to get them from National, not just go online and get them.  I have seen all the permutations of CAPR 39-1 ever since then...and I would be very surprised if there is ever a definitive 39-1 compiled.

The height/weight guidelines prescribed for CAP are in some ways even more restrictive than for the Air Force itself, because they do not take into account the issue of body mass/body fat.  I personally knew several ANG SNCO's who would not have been able to wear the AF uniform in CAP, because they fell outside the numbers.  There are guys who pump iron and have arms bigger around than my legs with probably .0000000000001% BMI and cannot wear the CAP AF uniform, because they fall outside the H/W numbers.

CAP tried to do a compromise uniform with the CSU, and it was very well received, but for reasons best known to them, because they won't divulge it to us, they dropped the blade on it.

You say that you "ignore" most of the "civilians" until they approach you "with an attitude" and then you try to "handle it the best you can."  I am just hypothesising here, but is there a chance that you are approaching them "with an attitude?"

I am not trying to antagonise you, Sergeant, but I am trying to ascertain how much of the problem is these "civilians" and how much may be you.

[Flying Pig]

One of the biggest issues I had was coming off deployment and 4 years active duty as an infantryman and joining the Reserves and being surrounded by people who had never been on active duty! Wheeeeeeew!

These issues will continue as long as we continue to recruit from the human race.  Anyone have an ideas?

[lordmonar]

I don't see it as a problem.

If you see it...correct it.

If that does not work contact your chain of command.

If that does not work contact the IG.

If after all that....it still does not work.....maybe you should ask "is it me?"

It is not a us vs them.....ex military vs never been military.  It is about individuals who don't know or wont follow the rules for what ever reason.

When I see it...I correct it and/or report it.

[flyboy53]

What is the deal with some of them!? geez, I've done my share in the military in the infantry and now as a drill sergeant and trust me when I say I'm a nice guy and relax but by the book, but seriously? Do some people out there need to act like if they are greater than God? I have noticed that most guys that have the almighty attitude have never served in the military. I had a freaking SM come to me with an attitude today and all I could do was laugh at him lol  I really thought it was funny as hell, but man, in my unit we got some SM that think they know it all and are uniform nazis ( and don't even know 39-1 )  and freaking scream at the cadets like if they were at parris island lol

You know the other day I had this LT Col tell me I couldn't wear my CIB ( Combat Infantry Badge ) , well thank God I always look everything on the regs before I do it lol and keep copies lol This person started going off and bla bla bla, you all should off seen her face when I pulled 39-1 lol then she goes " that must be new" lol then she wanted to pull rank on me and got even more pissed off when I told her that we both got the same pay grade lol 

Anyways even today this Rambo SM started going off on cadets and he goes, " I have never served in the military but got family members that have and KILLED PEOPLE, so I know what is like" oh my god I wanted to walk in there and slap him lol

Honestly no offense to some of you civilians that are helping with the program, I do know a lot that are great people, with great knowledge of many things but for all of you that wear the uniform and have an attitude of " Chuck Norris " in reality you are disrespecting the uniform and the program and other members, bite your tongue and leave all that yahoo chuck norris delta forces seal team six attitude for the house.  And people please!!! if you're going to wear the AF Style uniform! GET IN FREAKING SHAPE!!!! and that goes for pilots! I hate getting on a C172 with a 400 pound guy!! If you want to pretend that you're military then guess what! WE DO PT EVERY DAY IN THE MILITARY!! GET ON IT!

Now you all need to check fire and get with the program.

There I got it of my system now, now I feel better lol 

OK, frankly, I want to say, you are the one who needs the attitude adjustment or get with the program. With the ribbon counter you have going (according to your signature box), you should know by now that it is your duty to lead and/or follow, or get out of the way and let someone else more concerned with mentoring others have a crack at modifying the behaviors/appearances/leadership skills of the senior members around you.

My point to you is venting....and venting is healthy...but it is you who has the responsiblity to be the example to the cadets who look up to you and the other senior members you serve with. Citing a regulation is a good thing; setting an example and mentoring the senior member is better. Afterall, you should know by now, as an Army junior NCO, that your leadership skills must have a positive reinforcing impact on those around you in order to achieve the missions/tasks/assignment/orders given to you.

One more thing. Perhaps you should take some leadership lessons from Chuck Norris instead of slamming him. He was after all in Air Force Security Forces, serving in Korea (you had to be there and it was probably before you were born), and the example he sets even today still shows excellence in all he does. Try to match it...and by the way, I'm former Air Force Security Forces, too.

[JoeTomasone]

Competent professionalism works both ways. Your comments about the "civilians" hint towards an attitude on your part as well.

If you constantly have to "pull the regs" whenever someone opens their mouth, just why are you getting into these confrontations?

Sometimes they come to you.   

I wear my specialty badge on the right side of my service coat above the nameplate (as authorized in 39-1).   I've been questioned on it -- a lot -- by higher ranking officers (including one Lt. Col who should have known better..)   When I show them 39-1, I get the same argument - "It must be new".   When I point out that 39-1 was last revised in 2006, I am met with utter silence.

I have observed one SM acting like DI Gungho with Cadets, and I pulled that unit's CC aside (I was on Group Staff at the time) and we had a discussion about where the line was and the relative position of that SM's actions.    He had been aware of it ("Him being him" explanation), but apparently lacked the backbone to bring it up lest (gasp!) the SM decide to quit.   He said he would talk to him...   Hopefully he did.

We have all sorts in CAP - uber-military types, no military bearings whatsoever types, and everything in between.   Sadly, extremes on either end are allowed to flourish and set that unit's "standard" and no one is typically held accountable.     

If we want to fix this across the board, then Unit CC's need to learn to not be afraid to lose a member who doesn't want to get with the program (either coming up to standards or "down" to them).   Incoming members will learn what is "normal" from those already in the unit; if the unit is not setting the proper example, the Unit CC should address and not worry about the number of members on paper.    Eventually, the unit's members will come around to the "new norm".

And (since it seems to be a point of contention), IWNITM (I was never in the military), but have worked alongside them professionally for years, including 13 months in the sandbox.   It probably would be a good idea for CAP and USAF to have some more interaction so that CAP members with no military experience get an idea of how things "really" work, and USAF could get a better understanding at the local level of what CAP does and its capabilities.    I think both would ultimately benefit - but it would take a while.

[RADIOMAN015]

Competent professionalism works both ways. Your comments about the "civilians" hint towards an attitude on your part as well.

If you constantly have to "pull the regs" whenever someone opens their mouth, just why are you getting into these confrontations?

And (since it seems to be a point of contention), IWNITM (I was never in the military), but have worked alongside them professionally for years, including 13 months in the sandbox.   It probably would be a good idea for CAP and USAF to have some more interaction so that CAP members with no military experience get an idea of how things "really" work, and USAF could get a better understanding at the local level of what CAP does and its capabilities.    I think both would ultimately benefit - but it would take a while.

I don't see why any CAP member needs to take the time to have any interactions with AF personnel to see how things "really work"  --  Who cares

The AF knows what our missions are and where units are on military installations the commander & his staff are aware of CAP.   Most Base Readiness Officers have now gone through the On Scene Commanders Course and are familiar with CAP capabilities and how to request support.
RM
   

[Persona non grata]

This is why when on AFB we should wear red colored flight caps and orange reflective vests that say CIVIL Air Patrol.

[cap235629]

One of the biggest issues I had was coming off deployment and 4 years active duty as an infantryman and joining the Reserves and being surrounded by people who had never been on active duty! Wheeeeeeew!

These issues will continue as long as we continue to recruit from the human race.  Anyone have an ideas?

I think the answer lies in creating a cybernetic life form. We can use them for menial labor and to fight our wars for us. We can call them "Cylons" has a nice ring to it.

All of this has happened before.

So say we all.

[davidsinn]

One of the biggest issues I had was coming off deployment and 4 years active duty as an infantryman and joining the Reserves and being surrounded by people who had never been on active duty! Wheeeeeeew!

These issues will continue as long as we continue to recruit from the human race.  Anyone have an ideas?

I think the answer lies in creating a cybernetic life form. We can use them for menial labor and to fight our wars for us. We can call them "Cylons" has a nice ring to it.

All of this has happened before.

So say we all.

We'll have to add some programming to them to protect human life. The required programming could probably be boiled down to three logical tests. We'll call them laws...

[SARDOC]

We'll have to add some programming to them to protect human life. The required programming could probably be boiled down to three logical tests. We'll call them laws...

Or Prime Directives...if you will

[davidsinn]

We'll have to add some programming to them to protect human life. The required programming could probably be boiled down to three logical tests. We'll call them laws...

Or Prime Directives...if you will

Naw. I like my three laws. "Three Laws Safe" could be the tagline to the ads...

[JoeTomasone]

I don't see why any CAP member needs to take the time to have any interactions with AF personnel to see how things "really work"  --  Who cares

I wouldn't expect you to.

The AF knows what our missions are and where units are on military installations the commander & his staff are aware of CAP.   Most Base Readiness Officers have now gone through the On Scene Commanders Course and are familiar with CAP capabilities and how to request support.

Not in my experience.   The local base near me knows us well; we support an airshow every year, and a squadron meets on base (in their own building).   However, I have met lots of folks there who had no idea what CAP was - even amongst those tasked to work with us.     I'm not surprised when the SP at the gate has to confer with a supervisor to confirm the funny looking "USAF Auxiliary" ID card -- because he had no idea that USAF had an auxiliary.   

Don't get me wrong - it's bound to be that way; it's not like we actively and in a coordinated fashion market ourselves to USAF at any of the lower echelons.    But even on bases that have a CAP presence, the knowledge quotient amongst the AD folks remains quite low, again, in my experience.   

[RVT]

We'll have to add some programming to them to protect human life. The required programming could probably be boiled down to three logical tests. We'll call them laws...

Or Prime Directives...if you will

BY YOUR COMMAND

[Eclipse]

The AF knows what our missions are and where units are on military installations the commander & his staff are aware of CAP.   Most Base Readiness Officers have now gone through the On Scene Commanders Course and are familiar with CAP capabilities and how to request support.

You literally have no idea what you are talking about.

In most cases CAP presence on a military base predates and outlives the base commander, who's tenure is usually 3-4 years.  We are (hopefully) a full tenant, but in some cases our presence is through the direct benevolence of a single person and the base commander may have no direct knowledge of anything but our basic authorization to be there.

Whether or not the base commander is aware we even have "capabilities", let alone how to request them, or the inclination to do so,
is usually a product of the unit commander and the State Director, and in all cases it is a relationship that has to be husbanded in the highest order, especially when random people wander on base from outside and mess around with relationships that have taken years to build.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

But even on bases that have a CAP presence, the knowledge quotient amongst the AD folks remains quite low, again, in my experience.

And much of that can be laid directly at the feet of the United States Air Force.

They do not educate Airmen about us.  It would take absolutely nothing away from BMT, except for maybe deletion of a marathon dorm cleaning/underwear folding activity, to educate these new E-1's about their Auxiliary.  They have to learn about the Guard and Reserve, so there is no excuse for not learning about us.

I have increasingly found that there are really only a few segments of the Air Force who do know about us:

• Former cadets
• AF personnel with a CAP cadet in the family
• Older SNCO's, especially ANG/AFRES
• Officers O-4 and up
• Those with dual AF/CAP membership
• Those directly involved with supporting CAP; i.e., CAPRAP

Others tend to lump us into the following categories:

• Who the hell are they?
• Why is that old geezer wearing a uniform with funny-looking grey insignia?  That's the oldest Lieutenant I've ever seen.
• Oh, crap...they're the wannabe "officers" who try and give us a hard time for not saluting them.
• Why is that little red-white-blue Cessna allowed to land here?

A lot of those impressions are based on rumour and hearsay passed around via stories like the recent CAP Major who wrongly chewed out an Airman for not saluting her, and the entire CAP gets tarred and feathered with it.

The thread about that topic on Military Times' website included a comment from an Airman who said "my TI said that if you meet CAP personnel, ignore them."  That is inexcusable and quite unprofessional from an MTI.

But I don't solely blame the Air Force...after all, there are segments of our membership who would like us to be just a flying ES group with no uniforms and no affiliation to the AF.

I wonder if a poster like this would be laughed out the door nowadays...

[SarDragon]

Tick-tock. Tick-tock. Tick-tock.