Civilians in the civil air patrol.

[jgdeleon31]

What is the deal with some of them!? geez, I've done my share in the military in the infantry and now as a drill sergeant and trust me when I say I'm a nice guy and relax but by the book, but seriously? Do some people out there need to act like if they are greater than God? I have noticed that most guys that have the almighty attitude have never served in the military. I had a freaking SM come to me with an attitude today and all I could do was laugh at him lol  I really thought it was funny as hell, but man, in my unit we got some SM that think they know it all and are uniform nazis ( and don't even know 39-1 )  and freaking scream at the cadets like if they were at parris island lol

You know the other day I had this LT Col tell me I couldn't wear my CIB ( Combat Infantry Badge ) , well thank God I always look everything on the regs before I do it lol and keep copies lol This person started going off and bla bla bla, you all should off seen her face when I pulled 39-1 lol then she goes " that must be new" lol then she wanted to pull rank on me and got even more pissed off when I told her that we both got the same pay grade lol 

Anyways even today this Rambo SM started going off on cadets and he goes, " I have never served in the military but got family members that have and KILLED PEOPLE, so I know what is like" oh my god I wanted to walk in there and slap him lol

Honestly no offense to some of you civilians that are helping with the program, I do know a lot that are great people, with great knowledge of many things but for all of you that wear the uniform and have an attitude of " Chuck Norris " in reality you are disrespecting the uniform and the program and other members, bite your tongue and leave all that yahoo chuck norris delta forces seal team six attitude for the house.  And people please!!! if you're going to wear the AF Style uniform! GET IN FREAKING SHAPE!!!! and that goes for pilots! I hate getting on a C172 with a 400 pound guy!! If you want to pretend that you're military then guess what! WE DO PT EVERY DAY IN THE MILITARY!! GET ON IT!

Now you all need to check fire and get with the program.

There I got it of my system now, now I feel better lol 

[mclarke]

Um, where to start.
1. We are the civilian axillary.
2. Chuck Norris served in the Air Force (just thought I would point that out)
3. I can not agree more with you. I was an 11B, however, even when I use my experience in CAP to relate, I am not arrogant. I simply share my knowledge and move on. Sometimes it relates, other times no. My question is, why is a SM "yelling" at a cadet or anyone to begin with? We are not allowed to yell at anyone. Just a thought (maybe someone should be notified?)

[jgdeleon31]

Yeah we are the civilian aux, but we follow military bearings, but some SM think that being in the CAP gives them the rights to be [Attempted Filter Subversion]. excuse my french, and my favorite statement is " in the military people do it things like this" bla bla bla whatever.

And I do agree as a SM we should not be yelling at cadets or no one at all. We are more  mentors and instructors than anything else.

Oh forgot to mention lol  One of the SM in my unit filed a formal complaint against me today because I've been flying O-rides in the last week 1/2 to other squadrons and not ours, and supposedly that is against regulations!  Saying that before I fly anyone from another squadrons  that I needed to notified my squadron and fly our cadets first lol  and bla bla bla.

I thought Chuck Norris was a Navy Seal..... I mean they killed Bin Laden...

[mclarke]

Yeah we are the civilian aux, but we follow military bearings, but some SM think that being in the CAP gives them the rights to be D!cks. excuse my french, and my favorite statement is " in the military people do it things like this" bla bla bla whatever.

And I do agree as a SM we should not be yelling at cadets or no one at all. We are more  mentors and instructors than anything else.

Oh forgot to mention lol  One of the SM in my unit filed a formal complaint against me today because I've been flying O-rides in the last week 1/2 to other squadrons and not ours, and supposedly that is against regulations!  Saying that before I fly anyone from another squadrons  that I needed to notified my squadron and fly our cadets first lol  and bla bla bla.


I thought Chuck Norris was a Navy Seal..... I mean they killed Bin Laden...

SeAL 6? Naw, but I did read a book about team6 from the guy who formed the team way back. They put him in prison for his "tactics" that were at the time considered unorthodox (Um, hello, there called "special forces").

No, he was Air Force. If I remember correctly, he learned and started Tang Soo Do (Tae Kwon Do) in Korea actually, which is how he got started in the martial arts.

[jgdeleon31]

I honestly had no Idea he really served in the military.   That's pretty cool .

[MIKE]

I thought Chuck Norris was a Navy Seal..... I mean they killed Bin Laden...

He was Air Force Security Forces... Got his start in Martial Arts while stationed in Korea.

Jesse Ventura was a SEAL. (UDT technically, IIRC.)

[mclarke]

I thought Chuck Norris was a Navy Seal..... I mean they killed Bin Laden...

He was Air Force Security Forces... Got his start in Martial Arts while stationed in Korea.

Jesse Ventura was a SEAL. (UDT technically, IIRC.)

I hear Mr. Rogers was a SeAL as well.

[Woodsy]

I thought Chuck Norris was a Navy Seal..... I mean they killed Bin Laden...

He was Air Force Security Forces... Got his start in Martial Arts while stationed in Korea.

Jesse Ventura was a SEAL. (UDT technically, IIRC.)

I hear Mr. Rogers was a SeAL as well.

That's been around a while, but it's just an urban myth...  He never served in the military. 

[Eclipse]

This isn't a "CAP issue", it is a "people issue" - go to a CERT team, ARC, the CGAux, ARES, RACES, Sea Cadets, Boy Scouts, local condo board, etc., and
you will find people who joined for the wrong reasons, don't understand the respective organization at a fundamental level, and make life difficult for
their fellow members as if that was one of the missions.

Speaking to your particular case, anything unusual that shows up on a CAP uniform is bound to raise eyebrows, and despite the realities of the world today, the CIB is still unusual enough as to be questioned by unit members who don't have much contact with the military.  There are also plenty of badges, devices, and other accoutrement which are not authorized, and plenty of people who wear them anyway (both innocently and on purpose).
One would like to think these things would be handled professionally and discreetly, but of that brings us back to the above.

Bear in mind that the average CAP member is non-military, non-LEA/FD, etc., who has little contact with the military and has gained most of his "knowledge" from hearsay and movies.  The NCO relationship, especially, is lost on the average member, just as it is lost on 99% of John Q. Public.
Further, though there has been an overt effort to raise the bar on professional development and promotions, there are still plenty of people in CAP
wearing clusters who got them through simply sitting in the right rooms with the right people, and really have no idea how to comport themselves
as either officers or even managers of process or people.

The best thing you can do is bide your time, be polite, professional, and arm yourself with the regs.  Nothing hacks off a blow hard more than being
told to go "salute yourself" in a calm, professional tone, with irrefutable verbiage to back up the salutation.  And bear in mind that even the PITA's
are volunteers, just like you, there on their own dime, trying to do the best they can with uneven training and inconsistent regulations.

[jgdeleon31]

Oh yeah, every time someone opens their mouth, I pull the regs on them.  Yeah some people are sure are on a mission, and then again some other civilians SM are great, is just a hand full that give others a bad name.  I really tried to avoid them but sometimes you just can't help it lol .

[EMT-83]

Competent professionalism works both ways. Your comments about the "civilians" hint towards an attitude on your part as well.

If you constantly have to "pull the regs" whenever someone opens their mouth, just why are you getting into these confrontations?

[DogCollar]

Sgt., thank you for your service.  Especially thanks for your work as a DI.  My son graduated BT at Ft. Sill at the end of November, and I now have an informed respect for the DI job!

Many people in every place in society, (civilian, military, business, family, school, church...etc...) confuse authority with power.  Power involves lording over people because you can.  Power is the indiscriminate use of authority.  I like to point out that authority and authentic come from the same etymological root.  People respect authority that is authentic...and authenticity comes mainly (not solely) from experience.

I do hope that you will continue to have patience with us civilians who have not served in our nations military.  It is my hope that your authenticity will be recognized and respected by your CAP peers.  Once again, thanks for all you do. 

[Major Lord]

While driving cadets back from Encampment a number of years ago in San Luis Obispo, one cadet told me that their Senior Member Tac had told them that Mr. Rogers was a Marine Sniper with 93 confirmed kills ( Sorry Carlos, for  they know not what they say) and had to wear sweaters to hide his tattoos. I had to pull over on the shoulder to keep from crashing because I was laughing so hard. If I would have had a glass of milk I would have spit it though my nose. Sweet mother of Buddha!

Major Lord

[RiverAux]

Wow, should we also start the thread on prior-service folks who think they are actually still in the military also?

For every single example you gave we could come up with counter examples of prior-service folks doing the exact same thing.

[Eclipse]

Wow, should we also start the thread on prior-service folks who think they are actually still in the military also?

For every single example you gave we could come up with counter examples of prior-service folks doing the exact same thing.

Sadly true.  There are a lot of ex members who felt their military experience gave them the right to push people around, or imparted some "extra" abilities, when in fact CAP's loose interpretation of a paramilitary environment can actually make it harder for those with military experience.

[RiverAux]

With 30K+ senior members in service now and with hundreds of thousands having served over the course of the CAP careers of many of those here, there are prime examples of just about every type of senior member doing something idiotic or against regulations.  Such folks come from every type of background imaginable. 

[James Shaw]

This isn't a "CAP issue", it is a "people issue" - go to a CERT team, ARC, the CGAux, ARES, RACES, Sea Cadets, Boy Scouts, local condo board, etc., and
you will find people who joined for the wrong reasons, don't understand the respective organization at a fundamental level, and make life difficult for
their fellow members as if that was one of the missions.

Speaking to your particular case, anything unusual that shows up on a CAP uniform is bound to raise eyebrows, and despite the realities of the world today, the CIB is still unusual enough as to be questioned by unit members who don't have much contact with the military.  There are also plenty of badges, devices, and other accoutrement which are not authorized, and plenty of people who wear them anyway (both innocently and on purpose).
One would like to think these things would be handled professionally and discreetly, but of that brings us back to the above.

Bear in mind that the average CAP member is non-military, non-LEA/FD, etc., who has little contact with the military and has gained most of his "knowledge" from hearsay and movies.  The NCO relationship, especially, is lost on the average member, just as it is lost on 99% of John Q. Public.
Further, though there has been an overt effort to raise the bar on professional development and promotions, there are still plenty of people in CAP
wearing clusters who got them through simply sitting in the right rooms with the right people, and really have no idea how to comport themselves
as either officers or even managers of process or people.

The best thing you can do is bide your time, be polite, professional, and arm yourself with the regs.  Nothing hacks off a blow hard more than being
told to go "salute yourself" in a calm, professional tone, with irrefutable verbiage to back up the salutation.  And bear in mind that even the PITA's
are volunteers, just like you, there on their own dime, trying to do the best they can with uneven training and inconsistent regulations.

+1 -  I agree with Eclipse, Its a people issue.

I would also like to add that how you choose to deal with the person has just as much impact on the overall program. It you approach or respond to them as a DI than you are going to get a negative response. Instead of pulling out the regs everytime you have an occurance "make them" look it up if they question the validity. That way it will have a greater impact on them having to have searched for it. You stand firm on the regs and make them prove themselves wrong.

If you see a SM yelling at the cadets as you have described then it needs to be stopped immediately. Politely walk over there and ask to speak with the instructor alone and talk to them. Sometimes people are just blind to their own behaviors and do not realize what they are doing or how they are treating others.

Several years ago I had an instructor working for me at my DOJO. I had parents and kids coming to me when she wasnt their and complain about how she talked to the kids. She was calling them names such as idiot, lazy and the like. I talked to her about the concerns and she said she didnt do that. I tried to give her the benefit of the doubt and told her to be mindful that these are kids and students. I received more complaints a few days later. This time I setup a camera in my office and recorded her bahavior while I was gone. When I returned I called her into the office and showed her the video and pointed out her behavior. She never did it again.

My point...she proved herself wrong.

BTW - Civil Air Patrol was started by Civilians, NHQ is primarily staffed by Civilians, we are a Civilian Auxiliary, and most importantly Volunteers.

[jimmydeanno]

WE DO PT EVERY DAY IN THE MILITARY!!

Uh, say what?

[Flying Pig]

Yup.  Probably depends on your job.  As an infantryman in the Marines I PT'd pretty much every morning that we werent in the field.  If it was a black flag day, we PT'd in the evening before we secured. Mon-Fri without fail.  The entire Company.  Maybe not as a company, but each Plt PT'd.  Slightly different way of life when your a grunt and your ENTIRE unit lives in the barracks TOGETHER and everyone of them are single.
I can only think of a few times where it was cancelled for weather.  I remember many times at Camp Lejeune running in the rain, freezing cold singing cadences about the Chosin Resevoir.  In Korea in the mud and the pouring down rain, we still had to go hit the pull up bars in the make-shift PT area.

[jgdeleon31]

I agree with some of you were we got some prior services who  think they're playing a part in an action movie! But thank God we don't have any like that in my unit, actually in my squadron the more lay back personnel are the prior services guys, and still by the book, and yeah this is a civilian organization started by civilians but guess what, we wear the uniform and follow military bearings, and when we wear that uniform not only we're representing the CAP or USAF, we're representing our flag, country, and Americans,  and most people in the civilian world don't even know what CAP is, so we're also representing the US Military, and trust me when I say that there is always someone looking out there for our mistakes.  Be proud.

I agree with you Eclipse, anything abnormal in a uniform raises and eyebrow, but there is always a single sheet of paper that can fix that, a 214.  Plus there is also 39-1 that says what can and can't be wear. 

I'm a very relax person, but when I see a 50 year old acting like he's the [mess] and yelling at the cadets and obese and wearing the AF style uniform and you can see his gut hanging, that's a big no no for me.  Anyways I was just ranting and I feel good now, but also what I'm trying to say to civilians an prior guys, don't act like drill instructors with the cadets, that's not our job, teach them discipline but know were to draw the line.  Also enforce the height and weight regulation on uniforms,  I'm sure no one here wants anybody in their squadron looking like larry the cable guy in uniform.