Poll-Chaplains in CAP

[Major Lord]

Just to get the pulse of the group, without violating anyone's civil rights, I thought I would see where we stand on a group on the utility or value of Chaplains in this highly unscientific poll.

Major Lord

[BillB]

Chaplains are a valuable part of the CAP mission. The problem comes with the few Chaplains that put their religion before the mission. There was a MLO at an encampment that had a three hour moral leadership class (Reg only calls for one hour) and held Vespers every night. Rather than moral leadership these activities tended to be very religious. Cadets went to the nightly vespers, not for moral leadership, but to get out of cleaning the barracks.

[RiverAux]

I voted "No, they just get in the way", though I don't really feel they do, but it was as close to a generic "no" as was offerred.   

[EMT-83]

Just what do you mean by "violate Church and State"?

[Major Lord]

Sorry, they only give you 5 questions in a poll. I would like to ask questions like : Have you ever felt the need to confer with a Chaplain for a moral/spiritual, or ethical issue?" But a poll like that would take more than 5 questions to generate meaningful data.

46.6 % in favor of Chaplains
20 % Not in Favor of Chaplains
5% Indifferent

Not surprising results. Maybe Atheists should have their own Chaplain if the Courts have designated it as a Religion? Personally, I would like a Christian Objectivist Libertarian, one who feels the need to offer sacrifices to the beer god. I think the Atheists and Wiccans will get theirs first though.......

(Its funny that the pro-chaplain percentage is roughly on par with the percentage of people who actually pay Income tax......Coincidence?)

Major Lord

[Major Carrales]

Really?  Is there a need to "fan" the flames of this discussions which really has more to do with the debate over religion and anything beneficial to CAP?

If, for some reason, this continues, I just may support the posting of a thread asking if the past and current Presidential Administrations have been "good" for CAP.  Or, to better make my point, are democrats and republicans better or worse at supporting CAP.

Sorry, Religion and Politics have no place on CAPTALK.

[Major Lord]

Just what do you mean by "violate Church and State"?

Those people who feel that CAP as a pseudo-Govt agency is prohibited from supporting any religious activity in any form.

Major Lord

[EMT-83]

Cite, please.

[Pumbaa]

Seems to be a bit of Christophobia here....

I'm wondering why there are 2 chapels on the base I am on.  Guess the military should not have built them, you know separation and all.

Oh yeah, the Navy Chaplain friend of mine... perhaps we should have him walk the plank?  You know separation and all.

Should not have allowed the Chaplain on our base for this either!

Navy Honor Guard prepare an American flag during a memorial service at Norfolk Naval Station for Lt. Miroslav Steven Zilberman. The Navy pilot's Hawkeye crashed into the North Arabian Sea last week while returning from a sortie over Afghanistan.
http://hamptonroads.com/2010/04/downed-navy-pilot-honored-norfolk-sacrifice#rfq

[NCRblues]

The separation of church and state, that does not exist in the Constitution, but in the federalist papers that have no legal bearing on the Law of the land? 

[raivo]

The separation of church and state, that does not exist in the Constitution, but in the federalist papers that have no legal bearing on the Law of the land? 

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..."

Which is the question, in a convoluted way - whether CAP (and the military, since that's where CAP derives the tradition from) violates that in some way with the existence of a chaplaincy.

[Major Lord]

Cite, please.

This is not my opinion. I believe that argument to be specious and ill-informed, but since the gist of it has been expressed as the opinion of some members, I included it in the poll. For  what specifically are you asking  a citation?

Major Lord

[NCRblues]

Ravio,

This provision in the Constitution has been ruled on several times by the supreme court. They have stated (IE allowing Alabama to re post the 10 commandments in court house's) that it only limits congress from forcing the American people to follow one religion, or from the government from stating we are a one religion nation. This does not limit federal agency's from having a chaplain corp or offering religious services as long as it is equal to all party's involved in said agency's.

[raivo]

Ravio,

NRCblues,

[Major Carrales]

The separation of church and state, that does not exist in the Constitution, but in the federalist papers that have no legal bearing on the Law of the land? 

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..."

Which is the question, in a convoluted way - whether CAP (and the military, since that's where CAP derives the tradition from) violates that in some way with the existence of a chaplaincy.

Suddenly everyone's a Constitutional Scholar...

The idea of a "State Religion" as seen in the above "an establishment of religion" is making reference to a "State Church," much like the Church of England was starting with Henry VIII.  After this, there was an extremely bloody time in British History where people had to belong to the "King's Church."  This meant paying taxes and limited free exercise of religion.  So, you had to be a member of the CHURCH of ENGLAND...you could not be JEWISH or ROMAN CATHOLIC and participate in government nor escape persecutions.

One group, the PURITANS, (you know, the people who immigrated to the Americas in the 1600s) had an especially hard time of it.  They actually over threw the Monarchy and replaced it with Cromwell's Republic.  Once the Monarchy was restored...they move to America in "The Great Migration" and Formed Massachusetts Bay.

When the New Republic was build it was suggested that we refrain from what history has taught and refrain from "STATE RELIGION."  The idea of Separation of Church and State is not from the Constitution nor its Amendments...but rather from a letter by Thmoas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist Church entitled... "On the Separation of Church and State."

http://www.juntosociety.com/i_documents/tjchurchstate.html

If you read it you will find that Jefferson's response is thus ...

On January 1, 1802, in response to the letter from the Danbury Baptist Association, Thomas Jefferson wrote:

Gentlemen:

The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which are so good to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist Association, give me the highest satisfaction. My duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, and in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God; that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship; that the legislative powers of the government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should `make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore man to all of his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessings of the common Father and Creator of man, and tender you and your religious association, assurances of my high respect and esteem.

Thomas Jefferson

It says what I have been stating in my posts, that is not the place of government to restrict religion.  The Government is not supposed to be restricting religious worship, nor creating a National Church.


Simply put the phrase...

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..."

is followed by...

"...or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"

Having a chaplaincy is not an "establishment" of religion, it is an expression of "the free exercise thereof."

[NCRblues]

 :clap:
Very nice Major Carrales!! wish i had your eloquence with words good sir.

[raivo]

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, just pointing out the basis for the argument.

(I voted "indifferent" - the chaplain program doesn't affect me, so I really don't care one way or the other.)

[RiverAux]

While at the gym I did come up with one legitimate reason for there to be Chaplains in CAP -- to provide chaplain support to the Air Force when needed.  As I said in the other thread, there is a legit need to provide Chaplains for those in the military and if volunteer CAP chaplains can fill that gap I'm all for that as I am for just about all potential AF augmentation programs. 

So, I'm going to change my vote, to "Yes, they do no harm", but given the relative rareness of them providing military support, I can't say that they are invaluable. 

That being said, I still maintain that there is absolutely no organic need for chaplains to provide any services to CAP members.  Would I disestablish the Chaplain corps if I had that power?  Probably not.  I don't think we need it, but it isn't a big enough negative to be worth the fight to get rid of it.  If we didn't have it and someone proposed it, would I support it?  Probably not, but thats not the situation we're in. 

[FARRIER]

Here is another view:

With some people a Chaplain is a person of trust. They are able to approach them on subjects they may feel uncomfortable otherwise approaching others.

[raivo]

Here is another view:

With some people a Chaplain is a person of trust. They are able to approach them on subjects they may feel uncomfortable otherwise approaching others.

That's a valid point - someone who is not religious doesn't have a pastor/rabbi/imam to talk about "things" with.

[Major Lord]

Sparky,

Remember though that the Puritans ( they were not called that until about 1580) did not come to America to establish religious freedom, rather, to be free to practice their own unique hybrid of Calvinism. They were not so hot on religious toleration, and banned all other religions. In fact, a Puritan could be put to death if he missed three Sabbath services. Witches and Catholics were especially unwelcome.

Major Lord

[EMT-83]

Thanks for the thoughtful responses on the subject of separation of church and state. It's a phrase that always seems to make my blood boil when I hear it mentioned. People have taken the simple concept of the prohibition of a state religion to such extremes that local high schools are no longer allowed to rent church auditoriums for graduation ceremonies, due to threatened lawsuits over the violation separation of church and state. Educated folks, who really should know better, love to spout off on the subject.

On the original topic, I think that Chaplains are important to CAP. The few that I have met do not push their religious views onto the members. We are fortunate to have a Chaplain in our squadron who is a highly experienced youth minister. He conducts Character Development classes that are thought-provoking non-religious lessons that cadets and senior members both enjoy. He assists with case studies for CPPT, where members actively participate in lively discussions. As others mentioned, he also serves as a resource for members in need of counseling, who have no one else to turn to.

[Major Carrales]

Sparky,

Remember though that the Puritans ( they were not called that until about 1580) did not come to America to establish religious freedom, rather, to be free to practice their own unique hybrid of Calvinism. They were not so hot on religious toleration, and banned all other religions. In fact, a Puritan could be put to death if he missed three Sabbath services. Witches and Catholics were especially unwelcome.

Major Lord

Yes, the Puritians were an prime example for there not being an established Religion.  Massachusetts Bay, Salem Village especially, was not an experiment in tolerance.  Their established church in that colony is exactally why we need the 1st Amendment.  More evidence as to why the Founders put these limitations on Government.

Pennsylvania and Maryland are much better example of tolerance for their times.

Many people on these threads seem to want to be taking a side.  RELIGION vs ATHIEST agenda...I find that to be nonsense.  As a Constitutionalist I think both are right to hold their beliefs.  The First Amendment, however, is not a tool to limit religious worship nor to silence opinions against it.  There has been so much "spin" on the matter that I am affraid we, as a society, have made metaphorical "butter" out of it.

Again, to put it in simple terms...

Pray if you want to which ever God, or gods you want...or not.  Do not deny the Faithful to do so, and do not deny the non-believer the right to believe that.  The one belief need not make an enemy of the other.

[Short Field]

I could care less about Chaplains providing religious services to members.  HOWEVER, I really need a Chaplain to be there to help tend to the family of people we are searching for during an ES mission.  I also find them invaluable in taking care of the morale and welfare of members conducting the mission. 

[Chappie]

Taken from material presented at Unit Commanders' Courses taught WIWAWHC (When I was a Wing Chaplain):

Legally and morally, the unit commander has responsibility for the religious program within the CAP unit. This responsibility is grounded in the First Amendment of the US Constitution and elaborated in US law establishing the federal chaplain service. The chaplain functions as the commander's staff officer and expert in. religious and moral areas.

The chaplain always works for the commander.  At all levels of CAP, the Chaplain is assigned by the Commander.  The Wing Chaplain does not assign Chaplains or CDIs to the squadron.  As with all staff members, Chaplains and CDIs serve at the will of the Commander.

Chaplains assist commanders by providing advice and assistance on matters having to do with morals, morale, and religion.  Planning events may need to include religious observances or dietary regulations.  Chaplains may be consulted by the Commander when incidents occur that may need counseling or confrontation by the Commander.  Chaplains might see things happening in the squadron that others might not be picking up on.

Areas in which a Chaplain can assist the Commander:

     -- Advising the Commander

Chaplains have years of experience working with the unique challenges and problems that a volunteer organization produces.
And in most cases, the chaplain has not only survived but prospered in that environment.

"The Chaplain can be an insightful resource for the commander in the issues that effect many aspects of CAP life.  The recruiting, training, and motivating of volunteers is the lifeblood of pastoral and non-pastoral ministry as it is true for CAP.  The commander who has the aid of a chaplain has access to a wealth of experience and training needed to make a volunteer organization run smoothly." 

Ch (LtC) James Hughes –  Secretary, Chaplain Service Advisory Council (2001-2004) 
(CAP News, May 2002 "Commanders Carry Burden, But Chaplains  Can Help")

The chaplain brings an understanding of the dynamics of a volunteer organization:
-- motivating volunteers
-- keeping the mission out in front
-- need of tradition, ritual, ceremony
-- leadership development

  -- Confidant to the Commander

     Chaplains know how to keep confidences.  Can empathize with the commander in dealing with the burden and responsibility
     of leading because of the experience of leading a congregation.

  -- Conflict Management

     Chaplains can assist the Commander by dealing with/defusing individuals or situations in the squadron that could be disruptive to the life and well being of the squadron.

  -- Communication consultant

"Through spoken word, members are trained, motivated, corrected and integrated into the program.  The chaplain can be helpful to the commander concerning how to say things that help, include, and inspire.  Through written word, the activities of CAP are promoted, recorded, and described.  The chaplain's background is focused on articulating in a persuasive way ." 

Ch (LtC) James Hughes –  Secretary, Chaplain Service Advisory Council (2001-2004) 
(CAP News, May 2002 "Commanders Carry Burden, But Chaplains  Can Help")

Chaplain Hughes took off the cross for a couple years to serve as the GAWG CC.

[Chappie]

I could care less about Chaplains providing religious services to members.  HOWEVER, I really need a Chaplain to be there to help tend to the family of people we are searching for during an ES mission.  I also find them invaluable in taking care of the morale and welfare of members conducting the mission.

While we are useful in ES missions....we are useful in the life of an unit as well.  In my years of service as a CAP Chaplain, I have made countless number of hospital calls to members (and their families) who were being treated for emergencies or surgeries...have conducted the funerals and weddings for members....consoled cadet and senior members who suffered the loss of a family or squadron member.... counseled with members who were going through school/work/family issues ... advised commanders or activity directors regarding religious observances of certain faith groups (can talk off-line about a couple of events where the main course on a meal was pork....and some of the members were not able to partake --- sometimes an event needs to be postponed because it is being conducted over a religious observance).   I've listened to and advised/encouraged commanders whose squadrons were going through some rough times.   Ever sit down and hear the hurt in a pilot's voice when he/she is told they can't fly anymore because of health issues -- especially when that is all they have known in CAP?  Chaplains do a lot more than just offer an opening prayer at a CAP meeting 

[PA Guy]

As an encampment commander I have found chaplains to be invaluable in couseling overwrought cadets and seniors.  They have also been valuable in talking to cadets in a non-staff manner and getting a good feel for what is going on with the basics. A good chaplain can be worth their wt. in gold at encampment.

[Chappie]

As an encampment commander I have found chaplains to be invaluable in couseling overwrought cadets and seniors.  They have also been valuable in talking to cadets in a non-staff manner and getting a good feel for what is going on with the basics. A good chaplain can be worth their wt. in gold at encampment.

Thanks for that input.  Sorry to overlook that aspect of the CAP Chaplaincy -- having been to 11 encampments    When we are fortunate to have more than one chaplain on site, the group is affectionately called "The God Squad" by cadets and staff alike.

[RADIOMAN015]

I voted indifferent on this.  Basically I respect them as members & as ministers/priests, etc., BUT I don't think our missions/objectives would fail if we didn't have them on our squadron staff.  Perhaps they could be utilized very effectively under the ES CISM program.

Also for the record I do attend church just about every week, and try to practice my religion outside my church via respect for all and when possible "quiet" good deeds.
RM   

[Chappie]

BUT I don't think our missions/objectives would fail if we didn't have them on our squadron staff.

Without the people in our organization, the mission/objectives could not be completed.  IMHO, the chaplains are there to assist the Commander in taking care of the people so the mission can be completed. While a person can be trained to do a particular task --- their performance could be hampered by something that is bothering them.  A chaplain can be a useful resource to make sure that person is prepared emotionally to take on the task.  We speak of attention to detail....distractions can lead to disaster.  If there is someone who is dealing with some crisis (and I am not speaking of the type of crisis that CISM addresses) at home, work, or school, a chaplain is there to provide counsel, advise, and even a word of wisdom to the person or the commander, like..."Do you think it would be best for you to sit this mission/task out at this time?"  I know that I have worked with people in the past who had a very full plate....and CAP has a way of loading more on....that I knew could not handle one more "helping".  They were feeling "guilty" because they didn't want to let anyone down, etc.  if they didn't move full steam ahead.  They instinctively knew they weren't able to take it on...but it was helpful to have an outside source affirm it.   They did not need CISM for that...but a voice of a "friend"...their chaplain.

[Parsifal]

Even though I'm an atheist, I have a favorable view towards chaplains in the military and CAP (one of my drinking buddies in the Army was the post chaplain!). They perform a valuable role, as others have stated in this and the thread about prayers at meetings. Of course, proselytizing (religious or political) has no place in CAP.

[High Speed Low Drag]

Agreed that Chaplain Program is good and that Constitution is about freedom of religion / not freedom from religion!  Good post Maj. Carrales.

[Major Carrales]

Agreed!  Good post Maj. Carrales.

Thank you, my friend, but I am done here too.  People seem to want to fan the fires of this fruitless debate.  The poll numbers here will do nothing to post the prevailing attitudes and will, thus only feed the intolerance of both sides.

I will not publically reply to this thread.

[Pumbaa]

Agreed Sparky I'm done too.

How the so called moderators let this one keep on is unknown to me.  they lock threads for less... Nice agenda boys.

[raivo]

The other thread was going tolerably well until the last page or so.

Well, c'est la vie.

[DogCollar]

OK.  I am getting more than a little irritated by this.  What other well-established position in CAP would you dare to start a poll concerning whether or not that position is really needed?

Well, why doesn't someone start a poll about mission pilots?  Couldn't CAP train the local flying club to fly grids?

What about Inspector General?  Couldn't/shouldn't CAP have an outside law firm on retainer to handle legal issues?

Heck, what about Group, Wing and Region Commanders?  They just push paper along anyway.

Now, I am not seriously thinking that any of the above positions are unimportant.  I would not want to see any of them eliminated.  But somehow, it seems like it is okay to whip up on the Chaplain Corps?  Frankly, I am offended by the poll.

[RiverAux]

OK.  I am getting more than a little irritated by this.  What other well-established position in CAP would you dare to start a poll concerning whether or not that position is really needed?

Based on prior threads there is some support for the idea of eliminating Adminstrative Officers, at least at the squadron level, as being no longer necessary. 

[DogCollar]

OK.  I am getting more than a little irritated by this.  What other well-established position in CAP would you dare to start a poll concerning whether or not that position is really needed?

Based on prior threads there is some support for the idea of eliminating Administrative Officers, at least at the squadron level, as being no longer necessary.

Hmmmm...I doubt seriously that there has been a whole lot of Administrative Officers referred to as "bigots," by anyone in a thread, nor do I think anyone has wondered about AO's existence being an offense to the Constitution!

Someone will accuse me of over reacting.  Someone else will point to my position as evidence that the Chaplain Corps should be disbanded.  Why?  Why must everything even remotely related to Chaplaincy on this board become an exercise to besmirch the the reputations of ALL Chaplains?  It happens over and over again, and I, for one, am tired of it.

[raivo]

Not all chaplains are Southern Baptist preachers intent on recruiting impressionable young cadets; likewise, not everyone who questions the necessity of the chaplain program is a religion-hating Satan worshipper.

I'm all for discussion as long as it centers around polite discussion of the facts, and not trading of wild generalizations (from either side.)

I would like to think that, what with the majority of us being adults, we would be capable of holding a civil discussion while remaining respectful of each other's personal beliefs, as well as not taking disagreement to be a personal attack, but perhaps I'm being naive.

[Eclipse]

Not all chaplains are Southern Baptist preachers intent on recruiting impressionable young cadets; likewise, not everyone who questions the necessity of the chaplain program is a religion-hating Satan worshipper.

Yep.

Either chaplains are a mission-critical resource that serve as an asset, or they are a distracting throw-back to a different time in CAP's history when we were better staffed and had more time to spend on non-core issues.

The discussion, however, should not be seen as some sort of threat in and of itself, and if people make insensitive or insulting comments they certainly aren't speaking for CAP, Inc., nor even this "board" as a whole - address them directly.  A few people who
feel strongly enough about something to burn the calories necessary to type do not a movement make.

[Major Lord]

OK.  I am getting more than a little irritated by this.  What other well-established position in CAP would you dare to start a poll concerning whether or not that position is really needed?

Well, why doesn't someone start a poll about mission pilots?  Couldn't CAP train the local flying club to fly grids?

What about Inspector General?  Couldn't/shouldn't CAP have an outside law firm on retainer to handle legal issues?

Heck, what about Group, Wing and Region Commanders?  They just push paper along anyway.

Now, I am not seriously thinking that any of the above positions are unimportant.  I would not want to see any of them eliminated.  But somehow, it seems like it is okay to whip up on the Chaplain Corps?  Frankly, I am offended by the poll.

Bill,

My purpose in starting the poll was not intended as a referendum on whether we should euthanize the Chaplain Corp! I noticed what appeared to be a very strong anti-Christian sentiment on this board, and since the Chaplain discussion arose in another thread, I wanted to see if I could get a better picture of how the members at large ( in this highly opinionated board) thought of the Chaplaincy. The Poll shows overwhelming support, but also reflects a lot of hard feelings, especially it would appear from atheists, and to a lesser degree from members who have (allegedly) seen Chaplains overstep. The poll just asks for opinions, not input on regulatory construction. There is nothing as adults we cannot discuss, and I think the Chaplain program should listen to these types of expressions, instead of just expressing indignation that we would dare even question the value and limitations of the Chaplain Corp ( some of my best friends are Chaplains)

I would not be offended if someone asked if we need Ground Teams anymore. There are sound arguments for leaving SAR to others. A poll taking the temperature of the members would probably result in overwhelming support for keeping Ground Teams, but we would be imprudent to ignore any valid concerns arising from the anti-Ground Team members, even if they seem silly, bigoted, or specious, since it reflects on our ability to communicate the importance of our jobs.

Major Lord

[lordmonar]

I would reassess the "mission critical" designation.

I can't do a mission with out an airplane....but I don't need a Mission Chaplain to complete the mission.

[Chappie]

I would reassess the "mission critical" designation.

I can't do a mission with out an airplane....but I don't need a Mission Chaplain to complete the mission.

"Mission critical" does depend on the context.   For a cadet struggling at an encampment, their "mission" is to complete the week -- they know they need that event to be eligible for the Mitchell award.   For a commander or an activity director, his or her mission is to "herd the cats" -- that is to guide the members to the desired objectives.  They may not need an airplane to accomplish that task, but in my 14 years as a CAP Chaplain I have yet to be told by one commander (Squadron-Group-Wing-Region-Encampment/SLS-CLC-RSC-NSC Director) that my services were neither needed or appreciated.   Maybe we should change the title from "Chaplain" to "Commander's Assistant Cat Herder" -- that might be a little less offensive to some on this board

[Tater]

Just to throw in a little real-life operational experience related to chaplains - I was standing next to a chaplain when he made the first phone calls to families to notify them that there was a good chance their loved ones, an aircrew that was killed during a search, were not coming home.  That was one tough moment handled by one tough chaplain and done with a firm gentleness that was inspiring.

And speaking of inspiring, our chaplain served us well for 29 years.  He is gone now, and missed terribly.  The guy was always there and willing to do anything to help out.  Chappie put it well as to the duties of a chaplain and provided perhaps a more descriptive attribution.  I would put it differently as the role relates to the rank and file.  In my experience "friend" is a good name.  He is the one guy whose job it is to be your friend.  I reckon a good example of a good chaplain can be gleaned from his legacy.  Lt Col Tim Spiller was our chaplain.  He spoke at our last Dining Out, was honored with a fini flight on his retirement, and when he passed away 4 months later, the blue suits that turned out for his service at Riverside National Cemetery said it all.  A fly over of T-34's that included a CAP member, a Marine Corp Honor Guard that included a CAP member and former Wing CC's on down in attendance.  This link goes to a tribute (previously posted on CAPTalk) that a member did for Tim when he retired.

   http://sq5.cawg.cap.gov/TimTribute.html

So if the response of those he served is any indication of the "value" of the man and the role, I guess this answers that.

[davidsinn]

I'm not voting because my answer isn't there. I think the Chaplains are invaluable for us because they take care of our people but that we can accomplish the mission without them although not as effectively in some circumstances.

In the other thread I was arguing against religion in CAP. I'm sure some got the idea that I'm atheist. I'm not. I was married by a Chaplain in service dress. I'm Christian but I feel religion should not directly be in this organization such as opening prayers for normal meetings and what not. However I welcome the Chaplains because their regs allow them to support our people without stepping on other peoples beliefs. We've all heard horror stories about that one Chaplain that did that one thing and ran off somebody. That's the exception, not the rule and is frowned upon by the other Chaplains. I don't want the Chaplains proselytizing but I have no problem with them quietly counseling someone that needs or wants it or offering a prayer off to the side before a mission, and that's the way 99.5% of them act.

[DogCollar]

I am calmer now after hours of prayer and doing other stuff.  Perhaps I overreacted a little yesterday. 

Major Lord, I do realize that your purpose for starting the poll was to take the pulse, and that you meant no harm.  It's just that whenever the subject of Chaplaincy arises the discussion becomes passionately subjective on both sides.  I feel like I have tried to present the Chaplain Corps realistically to the members reading the posts.  I have acknowledged that there are chaplains in CAP who operate against regulations governing the Chaplain Corps Code of Ethics and that it is the commanders responsibility to intervene in those cases.  But, the are a very small minority of Chaplains!  Alas, the behavior of a tiny minority has been so powerfully offensive to some that all Chaplains get painted with the same broad stroke.  I guess that is what pushes my buttons more than anything.

My concern regarding the poll is that it offers ammunition to persons with specific agendas on both sides of the "divide," and reality becomes obscured by those who criticize Chaplains for being TO involved in CAP matters, and those who criticize Chaplains for not being religious enough.  Somewhere in the middle is a very powerful reality.  That being that Chaplains are offering, first and foremost, a ministry of time and presence to those who are vulnerable or in some distress or crisis. 

[davidsinn]

That being that Chaplains are offering, first and foremost, a ministry of time and presence to those who are vulnerable or in some distress or crisis.

You guys are volunteers too. That needs remembering by all.

[Chappie]

That being that Chaplains are offering, first and foremost, a ministry of time and presence to those who are vulnerable or in some distress or crisis.

You guys are volunteers too. That needs remembering by all.

Ahh...so that explains the years of missing checks that never arrived from Montgomery, Alabama