Cadet AEex Questions

[Krapenhoeffer]

So, my squadron's AEO suggested an idea to me (the ITO), and I'm tempted to run with it.

The idea started with having a few computers hooked up during a weekend for a Combat Flight Simulator LAN not-party cadet activity.

And then I turned to my poor, underused server... And came up with an idea. A wing wide Combat Flight Simulator cadet tournament.

I told the AEO my idea, and he sort of had an evil grin show up on his face.

I have a bizarre hobby of throwing stress tests on all of my poor computers, so I know the server is up to the task.

Thoughts, suggestions, emotional outbursts?

[Cobra1597]

I like it, especially if you can use it to do some actual instruction with or without the cadets noticing as much.

• Intentionally have them using historical models, like F4U Corsairs, F4F Wildcats, P-40 Warhawks, F-86 Sabres, F-101 Voodoo Fighters, etc.
• Stack them against foreign models, like FW 190s, Bf 109s, MiG 19s, etc.
• Put them in specific historical scenarios, like having them re-enact Operation Bolo

[Ozzy]

Hey, what Wing? I'd love to get a person or two to come =]

[coudano]

http://www.vfws.org

[High Speed Low Drag]

I wish I had known about it - I would have publicized it to my cadets.

[coudano]

I wish I had known about it - I would have publicized it to my cadets.

it was plastered here and at cadetstuff
and emailed to all ncsa applicants

Heads  up for June 2011!!!

[Krapenhoeffer]

I have never heard about VFWS, and I went to something considered a NCSA (although it isn't listed anymore as a NCSA) this summer. Will look into it.

@Ozzy, I'll PM you. I'm very paranoid about revealing where exactly I live publicly.

[HGjunkie]

Looked like some of the participants were wearing flight suits. ??

[coudano]

Looked like some of the participants were wearing flight suits. ??

all of them, infact.

[HGjunkie]

Looked like some of the participants were wearing flight suits. ??

all of them, infact.

Did they get to keep them?

[coudano]

Looked like some of the participants were wearing flight suits. ??

all of them, infact.

Did they get to keep them?

uh,
those who brought their own, took them home
those who borrowed mine gave them back at the end

[Bluelakes 13]

Wait -

the application says "Posess a full set of BDU's and Blues" but the cadets wore flight suits?  If I were a commander signing the CAPF31, I'd have a few poignant conversations with my cadets...

[tsrup]

Wait -

the application says "Posess a full set of BDU's and Blues" but the cadets wore flight suits?  If I were a commander signing the CAPF31, I'd have a few poignant conversations with my cadets...

Why? 

[Eclipse]

This idea has potential, but you'd have to sell me on how the CFS ties into AE beyond the fact that it involves airplanes.

A more appropriate situation would be using Flight Simulator with one of the many ATC add-ons and hold an Osh Kosh-like fly-in, including all the air control, marshaling and related tasks needed.

You could also do aerial missions like photo runs and ELT searches, etc.

[coudano]

Wait -

the application says "Posess a full set of BDU's and Blues" but the cadets wore flight suits?  If I were a commander signing the CAPF31, I'd have a few poignant conversations with my cadets...

They don't ONLY wear flight suits... nor do they wear the flight suit 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.  sheesh.  The cadet is not required to go buy a flight suit, and I do not recommend that they do so.  I have a pile that I loan from.

This idea has potential, but you'd have to sell me on how the CFS ties into AE beyond the fact that it involves airplanes.

A more appropriate situation would be using Flight Simulator with one of the many ATC add-ons and hold an Osh Kosh-like fly-in, including all the air control, marshaling and related tasks needed.

You could also do aerial missions like photo runs and ELT searches, etc.

Yah but that would kind of suck...
Those things kind of suck in real life, let alone in a video game.

VFWS isn't just about flying the simulated f-16 combat system (which *is* fun), nor even really just about aerospace education (though we dump more aerospace on a cadet in 5 days than most/all of them have had cumulatively up to that point in their life).  it's about resource management (prioritization and multitasking), shortening/speeding decision cycle, and situational/spatial awareness.  Those things make sharper people going forward into *any* endeavor, not necessarily military aviation.  not necessarily aviation at all.

[Eclipse]

Those things kind of suck in real life, let alone in a video game.

VFWS isn't just about flying the simulated f-16 combat system (which *is* fun), nor even really just about aerospace education (though we dump more aerospace on a cadet in 5 days than most/all of them have had cumulatively up to that point in their life).  it's about resource management (prioritization and multitasking), shortening/speeding decision cycle, and situational/spatial awareness.  Those things make sharper people going forward into *any* endeavor, not necessarily military aviation.  not necessarily aviation at all.

Yeah, that's the same thing I told my mom about video games when I was 12.

As to the tasks of general aviation "sucking" - you're pretty much making my point on this.  There are people in this world who live and breath those GA tasks like air and water.  Holding an altitude, heading and a place in the pattern takes a lot more effort than randomly locking on the enemy with no concern for anyone but your wingman, and the learning curve is a lot higher, which is why they actually would have value to our AE curriculum.

[Bluelakes 13]

Don't get me wrong, those that know me know that I am all for fun cadet activities!

If flight suits were approved, then the website/application should have listed it as an approved uniform.  Case closed.

Wearing my former-commander hat and from what I can tell, it was not approved, yet cadets were given flightsuits at the activity.  And they were photographed.  Having been the recipient of querries from activity commanders when my cadets had uniform infractions, the pendulum swings both ways!   

The lesson here was, update the website!

[jb512]

I think it's awesome.  You can play Microsoft Flight Simulator all day long, or get instruction from GA pilots (which is important too) but it's not often that the cadets would get the opportunity to learn something more advanced and specialized like that.  Especially since they're getting instruction from what looks like guys who do/did it for a living.

Those who think they're just sitting around playing video games all day long are mistaken I'm sure.

"That's right Ice.... man.  I am dangerous."

[Krapenhoeffer]

@Eclipse: This isn't the only AE activity that we do back in my squadron. But long ago, when my nameplate was blue, and my service coat had four pockets and buttons, I was the Cadet AE Officer, and I did a survey on the biggest criticisms of the AE program. What I learned was that there were two definitions of fun (according to cadets): "Senior Member (and myself) Fun" and "Cadet Fun" what I learned was that our entire AE program was "Senior Member Fun." So I, and the AEO made it a point to have "Cadet Fun" at least quarterly. We've done this as lectures on "The Influence of Aerospace on Popular Culture" which was a movie marathon one weekend, and a trip to a theme park (in civvies, mind you) a few hours away as "A Practical Exercise on the Effects of the Centripetal Force"

I do plenty of "Senior Member Fun," and we have cadets who pretty much ace their AE exams. I don't see the harm in making AE "fun." If I influence a cadet into going into Aerospace, then I did my job.

[coudano]

Those things kind of suck in real life, let alone in a video game.

VFWS isn't just about flying the simulated f-16 combat system (which *is* fun), nor even really just about aerospace education (though we dump more aerospace on a cadet in 5 days than most/all of them have had cumulatively up to that point in their life).  it's about resource management (prioritization and multitasking), shortening/speeding decision cycle, and situational/spatial awareness.  Those things make sharper people going forward into *any* endeavor, not necessarily military aviation.  not necessarily aviation at all.

Yeah, that's the same thing I told my mom about video games when I was 12.

And you were right, too.  Not to mention hand-eye coordination.  Though that's a different discussion.

At VFWS, it's not a passive process, they are *intentionally* inundated (overloaded, even), and taught specific tools which they then employ and practice nonstop for a week (long enough to -notice- an improvement and hopefully put a foothold on some habitual behavior)

As to the tasks of general aviation "sucking" - you're pretty much making my point on this.  There are people in this world who live and breath those GA tasks like air and water.  Holding an altitude, heading and a place in the pattern takes a lot more effort than randomly locking on the enemy with no concern for anyone but your wingman, and the learning curve is a lot higher, which is why they actually would have value to our AE curriculum.

Yah I like to fly too.  Real airplanes as well as sim.  And yah I have sat for hours in ms flight sim too practicing navigation, particularly.  But honestly I don't think I can "sell" a week of that to a group of cadets.  In real airplanes, maybe (not maybe, DEFINITELY).  But in MS flightsim...   i don't think so.  Infact i'll go ahead and say I know so.

Believe me when I tell you that "randomly locking on the enemy with no concern for anyone but your wingman" is *NOT* what we are doing at VFWS.  I mean of course we do *some* of that...  That's just good clean fun...  but it's not the thrust of the curriculum.  Needful however to say that simply locking on to something with the radar with "realistic" avionics set up, takes a few hours of class and not a little bit of practice...  particularly if you start specifying radar mode, target distance and altitude, and trying to IFF on a -very- compressed timeframe.

And you might be surprised how much time we do, infact, spend on holding altitude, heading, and place in (formation) --and doing things like following ATC or AWACS vectors, we do.  And no, just because the F16 is fly by wire, it does not necessarily make those things easy.  Easier maybe, but not easy.

The point is that most people see a bunch of cadets wearing green cover-alls, and playing a video game.  And it doesn't even look that hard (or necessarily interesting) when you aren't the one at the stick...  That is only the visible tip of the iceberg.  There's a mountain underneath the surface.  This is a 'simulation' not a 'video game'.


And yes we do use "really btdt" instructors as much as possible.
Which makes a difference.

And other guest speakers.
And facilities tours.
But now i'm giving away secrets, so i'll shut up

Anyway, anybody who has doubts, come in 2011, and see for yourself.
You'll walk away looking at the world differently than when you came in, I promise.

[Eclipse]

Cadets don't join CAP to do the same things they can do at home - they join CAP to be involved in unique opportunities only CAP and related resources can offer.

They can watch movies and go to amusement parks on their own time.  CAP contact hours should be relate-able to CAP.

Aceing AE exams is a challenge, but its not exactly rocket science (oh, well I guess it actually is, anyway)...

CAP is supposed to be about making the "hard stuff", "fun", not just being goofy with activity names so you can go on Batman the ride.

[jb512]

Cadets don't join CAP to do the same things they can do at home - they join CAP to be involved in unique opportunities only CAP and related resources can offer.

They can watch movies and go to amusement parks on their own time.  CAP contact hours should be relate-able to CAP.

Aceing AE exams is a challenge, but its not exactly rocket science (oh, well I guess it actually is, anyway)...

CAP is supposed to be about making the "hard stuff", "fun", not just being goofy with activity names so you can go on Batman the ride.

Well I'm glad you're not the supreme boss of cadet activities then.  These cadets are receiving instruction from fighter pilots on how they do what they do and then applying that in a simulation with other students and against aggressors who are themselves real fighter pilots.  I don't see how that is anything but Aerospace Education.

Again, the GA instruction is very important but taking it to that next level is what these guys look like they're trying to do.

You're right, any kid can sit at home and play video games but if you can't see what this program is about then you're missing the picture.  Just reading their website should be enough to explain that they're teaching something that is just as real-world as flying a Cessna.

[Eclipse]

You're right, any kid can sit at home and play video games but if you can't see what this program is about then you're missing the picture.  Just reading their website should be enough to explain that they're teaching something that is just as real-world as flying a Cessna.

I'm not talking about VFWS, I'm talking about Krapenhoffer's wing-level idea.

None of my comments have been directed at, or about VFWS.

[tsrup]

Why not take the wing level idea, and remove the combat element from it?  We are not a combat organization.  I could see using it to reenact historic battles but other than that, the idea of a tournament seems outside our AE arena. 

Instead this would be an awesome opportunity to apply all of the things they've learned in their earlier modules of aerospace or to help reinforce the things they are currently learning. 

Recently we had all the cadets in the squadron go to our University's computer lab (where Microsoft Flight Sim was installed on every computer, and they were coupled with yoke and rudder pedals)  and we had all of them linked together.  They had a blast, and they learned something too.  MFS also has a neat ATC feature that you can incorporate into it all. 

If they want to play combat simulators, fine but like VFWS, they need to have strong learning objectives that fall within our AE curriculum.
We're not doing our cadets any favors by doing "fun" just for the fun of it.

[flyboy53]

So, my squadron's AEO suggested an idea to me (the ITO), and I'm tempted to run with it.

The idea started with having a few computers hooked up during a weekend for a Combat Flight Simulator LAN not-party cadet activity.

And then I turned to my poor, underused server... And came up with an idea. A wing wide Combat Flight Simulator cadet tournament.

I told the AEO my idea, and he sort of had an evil grin show up on his face.

I have a bizarre hobby of throwing stress tests on all of my poor computers, so I know the server is up to the task.

Thoughts, suggestions, emotional outbursts?

Evil grin because most AEOs are terminal kids.

You have an excellent activity idea. You are doing something that I have agressively promoted in my own wing. Now do this wing ETAA a favor and make it meaninful, not just a shoot-them-up video game cadet fest fun night.

I suggest using FSX or 10 in the future because it has a network capability and might be a little more AE-interesting and meaningful. There's even a CAP search and rescue mission originating from Idaho as part of that program. (Not to mention the popular add-on). FX9 would allow cadets to see what it was like to fly the Spirt of St. Louis or the Wright Model A.

Using PC-based flight simulators is already gained a lot of popularity in the NYW. It is even the basis of a research project that I did that is now at NHQ.

Think about it, an AE activity simulating flight and not burning up gas. Want some other ideas? Check out what the Air Cadet League of Canada does. Those cadets wear flight suits and they earn wings after completing required training.

As far as the flight suits go, relax guys. If it helps build the mood, serves as an incentive and gives an aviation frame of reference...all the power to you. Therefore, if the cadets are wearing flight suits, I only ask that the insignia be correct and the appropriate commander has blessed it.

[Krapenhoeffer]

...Except that the "CAP" Mission that comes with FSX Deluxe is very, very inaccurate. Not to mention the networking issues that come with FSX. These problems are not easy to fix.

There are two ways of hooking up a multiplayer session in FSX. 1) Gamespy, which rarely works properly and 2) Direct IP connection, which is impossible to do with Norton installed. You can try disabling Norton, doesn't work. The only way to make it work is to uninstall Norton. And I can't do that to Corporate-owned PCs.

Our liaison officer has tried working with the nearby Fighter Wing, to see if we could tour the facilities, and try their F-16 simulators, but it doesn't seem to be going anywhere.

Now, I have had success working with Falcon 4.0, which I have heard an F-16 pilot describe as "This isn't fun. It's like work, except that I'm not getting paid."

[flyboy53]

Now, I have had success working with Falcon 4.0, which I have heard an F-16 pilot describe as "This isn't fun. It's like work, except that I'm not getting paid."

I like Falcon 4.0, too. Everything works. Your next step as a unit should be to construct a mock-up cockpit from wood. I'd check the Internet. Check this out:

http://www.hanskrohn.com/

[Spaceman3750]

There are two ways of hooking up a multiplayer session in FSX. 1) Gamespy, which rarely works properly and 2) Direct IP connection, which is impossible to do with Norton installed. You can try disabling Norton, doesn't work. The only way to make it work is to uninstall Norton. And I can't do that to Corporate-owned PCs.

Try FSHost and see how that works. It's stand-alone software for hosting FS02, FS04, and FSX all in the same environment. I used it a lot for hosting ATC sessions on FS04, it's really great software.