Model Rocketry Program

[DakRadz]

Hey there CAP Talk! I need a bit of help with a "Model Rocketry Day" that I want to set up. I searched the archives, found nothing quite close enough to help.

I know how to put together a budget, so as far as materials go my only question is, where can the replica rockets be found for the last phase? The ones which must fly but also represent a historical real rocket.

As far as the program itself, with anywhere from 15-30 cadets as my goal, is a Day or Weekend program more realistic? The squadron has at least one officer besides the AEO who could teach, but most likely both would work together to ensure safety; the tests would have a separate officer to conduct/grade/etc. Any other input on actually *running the program* would be welcome.

Please don't link to NHQ's Model Rocketry pamphlet or guide- I want actual BTDT experience.

Thanks!
c/CMSgt Radz

[davidsinn]

Hey there CAP Talk! I need a bit of help with a "Model Rocketry Day" that I want to set up. I searched the archives, found nothing quite close enough to help.

I know how to put together a budget, so as far as materials go my only question is, where can the replica rockets be found for the last phase? The ones which must fly but also represent a historical real rocket.

As far as the program itself, with anywhere from 15-30 cadets as my goal, is a Day or Weekend program more realistic? The squadron has at least one officer besides the AEO who could teach, but most likely both would work together to ensure safety; the tests would have a separate officer to conduct/grade/etc. Any other input on actually *running the program* would be welcome.

Please don't link to NHQ's Model Rocketry pamphlet or guide- I want actual BTDT experience.

Thanks!
c/CMSgt Radz

You need at minimum two full days and maybe a couple hours on an evening. It takes time for the glue to dry. I got my cadets Dr. Zooch rockets for the replica and used educator packs for the other two rockets because they are cheaper.

[DakRadz]

Much appreciated- Do you have to have a separate realistic rocket for each cadet?

If so, time to start fundraising...

[davidsinn]

Much appreciated- Do you have to have a separate realistic rocket for each cadet?

If so, time to start fundraising...

Yes. Each cadet must build, fly, and recover each type.

Edit: To make your life easier I'd suggest buying the same type of historic rocket for everyone. That way you can do each step together and help them out.

[DakRadz]

Most definitely the same one.

Looks like either the Juno or Sputnik. Fundraising it is.

I get the point of building a realistic model, but it does drive up costs. The model is as much as about every other part of the program combined- my estimate went from $20 a cadet (actual cost, without fundraising) to $40.

Anyway, thanks a million sir.

Anyone, feel free to post. Really 

[davidsinn]

Most definitely the same one.

Looks like either the Juno or Sputnik. Fundraising it is.

I get the point of building a realistic model, but it does drive up costs. The model is as much as about every other part of the program combined- my estimate went from $20 a cadet (actual cost, without fundraising) to $40.

Anyway, thanks a million sir.

Anyone, feel free to post. Really 

Now you know what I had to deal with  I only had 6 cadets to worry about plus $250 AFA grant on my side so each cadet only paid $25.

[NC Hokie]

The attached ad recently made the rounds of my wing.  The prices look good, but I personally prefer Quest Aerospace (http://www.questaerospace.com/index.asp).

As far as running the program, a full weekend or two consecutive Saturdays is a must, unless you're able to build the rockets during a series of weekly meetings.  That schedule might look like this:

Week 1 - standard rocket
Week 2 - payload / multi-stage rocket
Week 3 - historic rocket
Saturday AM - Fizzy Flyer, Goddard, and testing
Saturday PM - launch rockets and award badges

The historic rocket is built last because it allows the cadets an opportunity to build two simpler kits before tackling what is likely to be the most complex one.

Visit your local Walmart, Target, and drug stores that offer photo services for as many FREE film canisters as you can possibly handle.  Just ask to speak to someone in the photo lab and explain who you are and why you want them.  You should also try asking the meat department at your local grocery store for any meat trays they may be able to donate to the cause.

[DakRadz]

Bumping for a cause

So the cheapest rockets which still require work on the cadet's part, do not have parachutes- they have the little orange streamer. Do these still count as proper rockets for the program?

My AFJROTC unit used these, and it is possible to make a mistake, wherein the streamer does not deploy, which would not be a successful launch & recovery.
I understand that AFJROTC has COMPLETELY different requirements, but I wanted to express these rockets do have to be put together with the same level of attention to detail as other basic rockets.

So, thoughts?

[davidsinn]

Bumping for a cause

So the cheapest rockets which still require work on the cadet's part, do not have parachutes- they have the little orange streamer. Do these still count as proper rockets for the program?

My AFJROTC unit used these, and it is possible to make a mistake, wherein the streamer does not deploy, which would not be a successful launch & recovery.
I understand that AFJROTC has COMPLETELY different requirements, but I wanted to express these rockets do have to be put together with the same level of attention to detail as other basic rockets.

So, thoughts?

Yes, those are acceptable. The only thing I wouldn't accept would be a completely pre-assembled rocket. There are something like a dozen classes of recovery systems for rockets. Parachutes are only one. Streamers are another and so is tumble which is where it just falls to the ground.

[DakRadz]

Streamers as least DO have to deploy correctly, otherwise I'd shell out/fundraise the extra cash to make sure the cadets were working on them properly. Other than deploying the streamer, it's tumble from there on out..

Good to know sir, I seem to have lost my way in the maze of regs. Back on track now.

No way will the rockets be pre-assembled- I don't do pencil-whipping.

I was tasked with completing the OPS/Planning/Logistics of this activity since I got the bright idea to devote my free time to a CAP project. Looking like this will be a great bit of fun, and I'm looking to reel 3-4 cadets back in who've drifted away.
Thanks for the help!

[davidsinn]

Streamers as least DO have to deploy correctly, otherwise I'd shell out/fundraise the extra cash to make sure the cadets were working on them properly. Other than deploying the streamer, it's tumble from there on out..

Good to know sir, I seem to have lost my way in the maze of regs. Back on track now.

No way will the rockets be pre-assembled- I don't do pencil-whipping.

I was tasked with completing the OPS/Planning/Logistics of this activity since I got the bright idea to devote my free time to a CAP project. Looking like this will be a great bit of fun, and I'm looking to reel 3-4 cadets back in who've drifted away.
Thanks for the help!

You think it's fun now...

[DakRadz]

Streamers as least DO have to deploy correctly, otherwise I'd shell out/fundraise the extra cash to make sure the cadets were working on them properly. Other than deploying the streamer, it's tumble from there on out..

Good to know sir, I seem to have lost my way in the maze of regs. Back on track now.

No way will the rockets be pre-assembled- I don't do pencil-whipping.

I was tasked with completing the OPS/Planning/Logistics of this activity since I got the bright idea to devote my free time to a CAP project. Looking like this will be a great bit of fun, and I'm looking to reel 3-4 cadets back in who've drifted away.
Thanks for the help!

You think it's fun now...

I was most certainly reffering to the actual activity. Like I said, the planning? My own fault for announcing to the SM staff that I was spending personal time planning CAP events... Ah well, fun program and I get bling too

[AlphaSigOU]

If you're looking for a scale model to fly for the Saturn portion of the CAP model rocketry program, Estes still sells a roughly 1/35th scale Mercury Redstone kit (for old model rocketeer historians, it was the old Centuri kit). The Mercury capsule and escape tower are correct for Freedom 7 (vehicle MR-7). For improved stability, the fins on the Redstone kit were enlarged about 25%; you can build scale sized fins, but you have to add nose weight to make the model fly stable.

I used to build and fly scale models for NAR (National Association of Rocketry) competition events. Models of sounding rockets are simple and very stable for the most part; however, model kits of manned launch vehicles have had compromises made to improve stability (clear plastic fins or enlarged fin area).

[flyboy53]

Yes, but the ESTES Mercury Redstone requires a higher degree of skill to complete than most cadets have when doing this program.

Ratcheting up the skill level on a novice model rocket builder may serve more to discourage completion. I agree that you would be better served looking for a model of a sounding rocket or air to air missile. Besides, it's a lot cheaper and they may learn something about that rocket in the process.

You also forget that the scale model may be just that and not meant to be flown.

Please remember that in higher stages, you have to build multi-stage rockets and payloaders. Some multi-stage rockets are tiny. They can also be huge. I have one that is nine feet tall and is a marriage of two rockets...very interesting flight. Also, some payloaders just carry clear payload bays for insects or other interesting things.

Please keep them interested by continuing to do model rockety-related AE topics after you complete the program. I don't know how many times that I've seen cadets never pick up a rocket again after earning their badge. Also, don't forget that star for the Goddard Ribbon when they get to the appropriate phase.

[DakRadz]

The cadet is required to build two model rockets to complete this requirement.
One of the rockets must be have two engines that fire in two stages
and the other must be capable of carrying a payload. The launch must be witnessed
by a designated Qualified Senior Member (QSM). Finally, the cadet
must have a working knowledge of the NAR Safety Code.
CADET______ of ________ squadron, has successfully built, launched and recovered
one of the following options:
1. A model rocket capable of carrying a payload to an altitude of 300'.
2. A two-stage model rocket.
3. A rocket equipped with a glider both of which return safely to earth.
4. OR, in the event a cadet is required to take the air-power option
due to local restrictions, a scratch-built, air-powered rocket is
required as stated in the text. The cadet is required to track and
record the altitude of the air-powered rocket.

And also

The cadet is required to build one rocket in the Saturn Stage (as presented in the Civil Air Patrol Model Rocketry program book).

Okay, so at the top of the certificate it goes in depth to say two rockets must be built, launched, recovered. Further down the language and wording suggest that only one must be built, and the actual regulation (CAPR 50-20) says only one rocket must be built.
How does this one work? I'm not sure what is the deciding factor in the whole business.
Thoughts?

[HGjunkie]

The cadet is required to build two model rockets to complete this requirement.
One of the rockets must be have two engines that fire in two stages
and the other must be capable of carrying a payload. The launch must be witnessed
by a designated Qualified Senior Member (QSM). Finally, the cadet
must have a working knowledge of the NAR Safety Code.
CADET______ of ________ squadron, has successfully built, launched and recovered
one of the following options:
1. A model rocket capable of carrying a payload to an altitude of 300'.
2. A two-stage model rocket.
3. A rocket equipped with a glider both of which return safely to earth.
4. OR, in the event a cadet is required to take the air-power option
due to local restrictions, a scratch-built, air-powered rocket is
required as stated in the text. The cadet is required to track and
record the altitude of the air-powered rocket.

And also

The cadet is required to build one rocket in the Saturn Stage (as presented in the Civil Air Patrol Model Rocketry program book).

Okay, so at the top of the certificate it goes in depth to say two rockets must be built, launched, recovered. Further down the language and wording suggest that only one must be built, and the actual regulation (CAPR 50-20) says only one rocket must be built.
How does this one work? I'm not sure what is the deciding factor in the whole business.
Thoughts?

I've got the MR book in front of me, and it shows that for the Saturn stage, the cadet may build one of the two options listed; either the 2-stage rocket or a payload carrying rocket. (There's also an air powered rocket sub-option for places where it is illegal to fire off a solid fuel rocket.)

Since you have to also build a rocket for the Titan phase, there are 2 rockets required minimun to be built before the cadet can earn the badge. So, according to the booklet, one for Titan, and one for Saturn.

EDIT- DISREGARD, read post below.

[DakRadz]

At least 3 rockets must be built to earn the badge.
Titan requires two, and there isn't any question from me on that one-

When a cadet completes the written examination, he/she is required to
have a Qualified Senior Member (QSM), witness the successful launch of
two solid fuel rockets. After witnessing the successful flight of these rockets,
the QSM must sign this Official Witness Log (OWL).
CADET______________________________________________________
of___________________________________________________________
squadron has completed the following requirements:
1. Commercial single stage basic model rocket.
2. A commercial single stage model rocket from aerospace history.
As a Qualified Senior Member (QSM), I have witnessed the successful
flight of each of the required rockets.

Titan requires two, I get that.

Saturn has three different rockets which CAN be built. There are also three different places that I pointed out, of which two say only one rocket is to be built, whereas at the top of the certificate it says that both of the normal options must be built, OR the air powered rocket for places where rockets are illegal.
I used strikethrough because that part isn't relevant. But for Saturn only, not the entire program, Saturn has different statements throughout the regs and certificate about what is required.

I keep waiting for Capt Sinn to post, he's been so helpful thus far

P.S. My quotes are taken from the online PDF MR booklet. So I'd imagine it's the up-to-date version. But I'm taking all this directly from the resources of NHQ and its website.

[HGjunkie]

At least 3 rockets must be built to earn the badge.
Titan requires two, and there isn't any question from me on that one-

When a cadet completes the written examination, he/she is required to
have a Qualified Senior Member (QSM), witness the successful launch of
two solid fuel rockets. After witnessing the successful flight of these rockets,
the QSM must sign this Official Witness Log (OWL).
CADET______________________________________________________
of___________________________________________________________
squadron has completed the following requirements:
1. Commercial single stage basic model rocket.
2. A commercial single stage model rocket from aerospace history.
As a Qualified Senior Member (QSM), I have witnessed the successful
flight of each of the required rockets.

Titan requires two, I get that.

Saturn has three different rockets which CAN be built. There are also three different places that I pointed out, of which two say only one rocket is to be built, whereas at the top of the certificate it says that both of the normal options must be built, OR the air powered rocket for places where rockets are illegal.
I used strikethrough because that part isn't relevant. But for Saturn only, not the entire program, Saturn has different statements throughout the regs and certificate about what is required.

Derp. only skimmed through the summaries. disregard my last post.

[DakRadz]

Roger, wilco. Now I really am just going to wait for

CAPTAIN SINN

It's like a Bat Signal, you see.

Seriously though, I'm actually surprised that something like this has contradictions. Or at least that enough people haven't noticed it and complained to NHQ in order to get it corrected. But you'd think that a regulation on earning a rather complex (also read: expensive) award would have such a major confusing flaw.

[davidsinn]

CAPTAIN SINN

[Lurch Addams]You rang?[/Lurch Addams]

Give me a little bit to look this up and I'll get back to ya'll.

[davidsinn]

Ok my steely eyed missile men My conclusion is that page 73 where the quote comes from is wrong. At the bottom of the same page it mentions one option. Two other places in the same book it mentions only needing to do one of the options. The reg also states onle one option is required. I never even noticed that before. In short you only need to do three rockets for the badge. Two for Titan and one for Saturn. I'm ignoring the requirements of Redstone because they are not germane to the discussion.

[DakRadz]

Real [model] rockets, yes, only three. Redstone's are what my 2nd grade science class did. 

Thank you sir, now I can put the finishing touches on my budget and input all into Excel (or whatever OpenOffice's knockoff of said program is called).

I think I'll send something to NHQ's AEO about this, after I talk with the Sqd/CC, AEO, and DCC.

I can't wait to do this! We may not even utilize the AFA grant system due to the application time frames- right now we are between the two, and I may not want to wait 4+ months for something we may not get, to do the program in the coldest part of the year... Yeah. But fund-raising will take care of that.

Thank you, sir!

[davidsinn]

I think I'll send something to NHQ's AEO about this, after I talk with the Sqd/CC, AEO, and DCC.

Don't forget to inform your group and wing AE. That's something everyone should be aware of.

I can't wait to do this! We may not even utilize the AFA grant system due to the application time frames- right now we are between the two, and I may not want to wait 4+ months for something we may not get, to do the program in the coldest part of the year... Yeah. But fund-raising will take care of that.

I speak from experience when I say this: Rocket engines won't ignite below 40. They get iffy at 50. The squibs just can't heat the fuel up enough. If you have no option but to shoot in the cold contact me and I can give you some advice.

Thank you, sir!

I aim to serve.

[helper]

As a reference, you probably have read the other postings for model rocketry. Take a look at http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=8362.0  Reply #32 has a picture of a scrap paper rocket built from FedEx packaging materials with a BestBuy shopping bag for a parachute. The only cost was for the glue and tools. It was launched with 3 E engines and was not found afterwards.

I've had cadets build a single stage rocket from scratch in under 2 hours (use fast dry glue). Subsequent rockets were built in less time using preglued body tubes and precut cardboard fins (both also made from packaging materials).

Another inexpensive material is white card stock that you run through an inkjet printer to add a design in color.

There are lots of sounding rocket designs that can be used to pattern a scale rocket. Be sure to check the stability and add clay weight as needed. 

Just a suggestion on lowering the cost and increasing the experience. The model rocketry program can be completed in a busy weekend. My preference is to complete the 1st stage in regular squadron meetings. Completion time varies with the age and experience level of the participants.

[DakRadz]

We only have one Patron Member adult who seems to be knowledgeable on MR, so experience is low. I'm considering raising all funds for the entire squadron, and then completing the program with a SM with maybe one other cadet, so that we can teach as well. For future projects I may try "home-built" rockets. Those will give everyone something to look forward to- majorly customizable and personalized, but still safe (if safety rules are observed, of course).

For now, however, I found AC Supply. Patriot Missile and the Nova Payloader (most expensive type of rockets (replica and payload) from what I've seen)- they're sold separately, but the total price of both is $21.64. After looking through the catalog, I think AC Supply will get all our business.

Thank you for the link, helper- I saw the AC Supply link in that thread, and I have an idea on how to keep cadets involved after we finish! :clap:

[DakRadz]

Alright, here's my plan for model rockets:
15 person goal
Redstone- I'll get all materials donated in some way shape or form, not paying for meat trays. (I wonder how McDonald's will react when I ask for a couple dozen straws?)

Titan- The traditional Alpha rocket (buying the little CAP seal decals for these as well to replace the ALPHA decal)- 2 12-packs of Alpha
& 15 of the the Patriot Missile replica. Both of these take B6-4 engines, so easier to buy in bulk.
EDIT: Also buying two extra Patriot kits w/launch pad and control.

Saturn- 15 Nova Payloaders
On the Payloader, it says B4-2, B6-2, and C6-3 rockets. How much of a difference would putting a B6-4 engine in it have? I've only done this type of program once with AFJROTC, and we didn't exactly study the fine nuances of each engine. The reason being that buying two bulk B6-4 packages is a fair price and slightly more than we'll need for all three rockets- if all three can use the same, I'll buy another 3 or 4 pack, just to cover duds and such.

Another point- In your program, what about cadets whose rockets don't properly launch/land/recover? Are they outta luck until the next opportunity to complete the program? Or do you order a few extra rockets just in case? What's your method?

REDSTONE: What size insulation tube is needed? I see 1/2, 3/4, and 1 inch diameters. Which works best? The book doesn't say that.

[arajca]

Hit up your local Wal-Mart, Target, K-Mart, etc with an on-site photo lab to see if they'll give you film canisters the 35mm film comes in. I got about 50 just by asking. Talk to the photo lab folks directly. According to my local store, they just throw the film canisters away.

For the pipe insulation, you'll want a 1.5" outside diameter. I don't what size that is off hand.

For fun in the Redstone, build a air launcher using the information in the book. It may cost a little (I did for under $5), but it's fun. It's also interesting to let the cadets figure out what the optimum air/water ratio is for flight. Complicated by the air pressure. THe rockets are made with soda or water bottles.

[davidsinn]

Saturn- 15 Nova Payloaders
On the Payloader, it says B4-2, B6-2, and C6-3 rockets. How much of a difference would putting a B6-4 engine in it have? I've only done this type of program once with AFJROTC, and we didn't exactly study the fine nuances of each engine. The reason being that buying two bulk B6-4 packages is a fair price and slightly more than we'll need for all three rockets- if all three can use the same, I'll buy another 3 or 4 pack, just to cover duds and such.

The -4 is the delay between burn out and recovery deploy. If it's too long on a heavy rocket it will arc over too far and might not deploy correctly or even shred the chute. I wouldn't suggest going with a B6-4 for that particular rocket.

[DakRadz]

Replaced the Nova Payloader with the Payloader II- the extra money spent on rockets will be less than buying another type of engine entirely. Plus, I finally figured out the discount system, so we are eligible for 40% off everything. Plus free shipping. So about (slightly less than) $600 for 15 cadets, with a few extra bits from buying in bulk. Is that a good price?

The price includes 55 engines, 54 rockets (3 different types), enough igniters/wadding for one launch per rocket, two launch pads and controllers. Only need 45 rockets (3 per cadet, or 15 of the 3 types), so a few over.

Also, what about cadets who have malfunctions? i.e. Don't meet the requirements because of failure to deploy parachute, etc.
If you haven't had this happen, what would you do if it did? Like I said, I have extras if necessary, rockets and engines.

[arajca]

If it is not a successful flight, it doesn't count. If you have the materials and time, let the cadet fix the problem and try again. If not, they can try another day.

$40 per cadet. Not bad. Presumably the next time it'll be cheaper if you keep the infrastructure support, i.e launch pads and controllers.