It's finally here!

[Panache]

Being prior-service Army and having earned a CMB (first Gulf War), I feel I can comment on this.

I'm fine with that.

Basically, if we're going to wear the AF uniform, then we should abide by the AF regulations for wear of that uniform.  If the AF doesn't allow their own, active-duty airmen and officers to wear these devices (if they somehow earned them), then we should't wear them either.

Now, should I think we should be authorized?  Sure, but that's a gripe at Ma Blue, and not the CAP leadership.

I perceived it as stated as you should know perception is and will be reality.

I can assure you that was not my intent.  I know somebody who is prior AF who earned an Army badge (my step-brother, in fact, who was the smarter of us as he chose AF blue instead of Army green like myself) so I knew it was possible.  I'll chalk this up to a simple misunderstanding.

I have never treated anyone who only had the option of G/W as inferior or second class, period.  And I never will, unlike some I do not discriminate based on the uniform someone can or can not wear.

And that reflects positively upon your character, sir.

[abdsp51]

Being prior-service Army and having earned a CMB (first Gulf War), I feel I can comment on this.

I'm fine with that.

Basically, if we're going to wear the AF uniform, then we should abide by the AF regulations for wear of that uniform.  If the AF doesn't allow their own, active-duty airmen and officers to wear these devices (if they somehow earned them), then we should't wear them either.

Now, should I think we should be authorized?  Sure, but that's a gripe at Ma Blue, and not the CAP leadership.

I perceived it as stated as you should know perception is and will be reality.

I can assure you that was not my intent.  I know somebody who is prior AF who earned an Army badge (my step-brother, in fact, who was the smarter of us as he chose AF blue instead of Army green like myself) so I knew it was possible.  I'll chalk this up to a simple misunderstanding.

I have never treated anyone who only had the option of G/W as inferior or second class, period.  And I never will, unlike some I do not discriminate based on the uniform someone can or can not wear.

And that reflects positively upon your character, sir.

I can agree to that.

[JeffDG]

If there is a market and a profit to be made... CAP could easily find a manufacturer. If Roman Service Dress was adopted as the Class A uniform for CAP G/W, I bet you Scamguard will have in their next webpage update. 

Only if they come with togas.

Then we can officially call the next Group holiday gathering a toga party.

Members of the BoG will be authorized red, right?

[Storm Chaser]

ISSUE SEVEN:
A process to recommend changes...when there has been a moratorium on uniform changes for the past several years and a new-draft 39-1 is in process of being published with virtually no changes to "corporate" uniforms?  Do you, or anyone else, really believe that such a proposal would get any further than a Group Commander's CS file?

Theses submitted and nailed to the church door.

Bye-BYE!

So you believe that the process in place to recommend uniform changes doesn't work, so you choose not to follow that process and post your gripes recommendations here instead...

Hmm... Have you actually followed the process in its entirety to know whether it really works or not? And how do you know that the system doesn't work just because your particular ideas were not incorporated?

Look, I believe the new CAPM 39-1, while not perfect, is a step in the right direction. Do we still need uniform improvements, especially regarding corporate uniforms? Absolutely! But gripping about it over and over here in CT is not going to make those changes happen any faster.

Perhaps you should take these issues/suggestions and "nail" them to the door at NHQ. Maybe that will catch their attention.

(Edited for grammar)

[Panache]

Perhaps you should take these issues/suggestions and "nail" them to the door at NHQ. Maybe that will catch their attention.

Or, at the very least, give a SP an interesting story for his buddies about the guy he arrested.

(disclaimer: yes, I get the Martin Luther reference.)

[Storm Chaser]

2. With the complete adoption of USAF uniform regulations into the draft, there are going to be a few "butt hurt" veterans who have for years worn certain badges (ie the EIB, CIB, EMB, CMB, etc.) completely within CAP regulations and now have to take them off. Another slap in the face.

Being prior-service Army and having earned a CMB (first Gulf War), I feel I can comment on this.

I'm fine with that.

Basically, if we're going to wear the AF uniform, then we should abide by the AF regulations for wear of that uniform.  If the AF doesn't allow their own, active-duty airmen and officers to wear these devices (if they somehow earned them), then we should't wear them either.

Now, should I think we should be authorized?  Sure, but that's a gripe at Ma Blue, and not the CAP leadership.

And like I pointed out before, you drastically misread what I said.  My "if they somehow earned them" was not meant as "Air Force can't earn them" but as, well, if they somehow earned them.  You know, like if they went to the appropriate Army school and.... earned them.  I meant exactly what I typed.

That's exactly what I understood when I read the original post. No confusion here.

[Eclipse]

So you believe that the process in place to recommend uniform changes doesn't work, so you choose not to follow that process and post your gripes recommendations here instead...

Hmm... Have you actually followed the process in its entirety to know whether it really works or not? And how do you know that the system doesn't work just because your particular ideas were not incorporated?

There is no "process". Suggesting that the average member can submit a recommendation through 4-6+ echelons of approval is simply not
reasonable if every echelon has the authority to say "no" and disregard.  The most hyper-engaged "commander of the year" doesn't have time for
this sort of thing, let alone the typical put-upon, short handed CC.

Seriously, unless you're assigned at the Wing or higher, or happen to participate in an activity that has coincidental access to
someone at Region or National, the odds of most "though the chain" suggestions being taken seriously approaches zero.

That also presupposes the idea or issue hasn't already been considered by NHQ.  There's very little new under the sun and the folks at NHQ
are not dumb, just busy and with their own priorities.  Odds are anything the average unit-level Captain has "come up with" has already been
considered by a Colonel at Region or higher.

Now that there isn't even a requirement that new regs be posted for comment (recently changed), CAPTalk is one of the only ways to have a
direct voice, even if that voice can be summarily ignored as well.  Not only do we have a BOG member who regularly participates here, but Maj Gen Carr
has indicated he comes here as well, and we know the lurker count is higher most days then the logged-in members, so just because we don't get a
"CONSIDER IT DONE!" response from user CAPFLT001, doesn't mean our comments aren't being considered.

Look, I believe the new CAPM 39-1, while not perfect, is a step in the right direction.

Yes, a step - one which is 10 years in the making, and doesn't do much more then shake out the crumbs.  The format change not withstanding,
all of this should have been done last decade.

Do we still need uniform improvements, especially regarding corporate uniforms? Absolutely! But gripping about it over and over here in CT is not going to make those changes happen any faster.

I agree to a certain extent, especially once one's ideas have been communicated, but not griping about it isn't going to get things changed, either.

[Storm Chaser]

So you believe that the process in place to recommend uniform changes doesn't work, so you choose not to follow that process and post your gripes recommendations here instead...

Hmm... Have you actually followed the process in its entirety to know whether it really works or not? And how do you know that the system doesn't work just because your particular ideas were not incorporated?

There is no "process". Suggesting that the average member can submit a recommendation through 4-6+ echelons of approval is simply not
reasonable if every echelon has the authority to say "no" and disregard.  The most hyper-engaged "commander of the year" doesn't have time for
this sort of thing, let alone the typical put-upon, short handed CC.

Seriously, unless you're assigned at the Wing or higher, or happen to participate in an activity that has coincidental access to
someone at Region or National, the odds of most "though the chain" suggestions being taken seriously approaches zero.

That also presupposes the idea or issue hasn't already been considered by NHQ.  There's very little new under the sun and the folks at NHQ
are not dumb, just busy and with their own priorities.  Odds are anything the average unit-level Captain has "come up with" has already been
considered by a Colonel at Region or higher.

Now that there isn't even a requirement that new regs be posted for comment (recently changed), CAPTalk is one of the only ways to have a
direct voice, even if that voice can be summarily ignored as well.  Not only do we have a BOG member who regularly participates here, but Maj Gen Carr
has indicated he comes here as well, and we know the lurker count is higher most days then the logged-in members, so just because we don't get a
"CONSIDER IT DONE!" response from user CAPFLT001, doesn't mean out comments aren't being considered."

Point taken.

I still believe that a well written, thought out point, discussed with objectivity has better chances of being considered than just plain ol' gripping about how bad things are, how they'll never be fixed, how blah, blah, GOBN, nobody ever listens to me, I'm just going back to the CGAux where everything is better... You get my point.

[Eclipse]

^ I do and agree.

[Private Investigator]

White shirt, blue tie, grey trousers and tunic.

Besides the uniform issues, a CPPT issue   

[Private Investigator]

"Major Blutarsky would like to speak about the Character Development program...."

Those are not 'square knots'! And the 'hospital corners' is not at the proper 90 degrees   

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I still believe that a well written, thought out point, discussed with objectivity has better chances of being considered than just plain ol' gripping about how bad things are, how they'll never be fixed, how blah, blah, GOBN, nobody ever listens to me, I'm just going back to the CGAux where everything is better... You get my point.

There is a fine line between "gripping" and making a point, this is true.

However, as someone with backgrounds in technical writing, psychology, sociology and logic/IT, I do believe I know the difference.

Just grousing about it, to me, would be saying things like:

1. I ain't doin' another thing in CAP until the Air Force gives us back our rightful metal ranks and blue shoulder marks!  It's been 20 years +, after all!

2. I'm gonna make my OWN changes to the corporate uniforms, wear them and if someone tells me I can't...well, I'm a volunteer and you can't do that to me!

3. I paid good money for that CSU (actually, I didn't have a full one - illustrative purposes only) and just TRY and tell me I can't still wear it!

4. The next time some stupid greenhorn E-1 young enough to be my grandchild fresh out of Lackland gripes to their first shirt about some CAP "officer" wearing MY uniform wrong...

5. The next time I'm on an AFB/ANGB/ARB and some fat, pigheaded SMSgt who looks like an overstuffed blue sausage tells ME that I'M out of height/weight standards, he'll get my Captain's bars in his face!

None of those would be acceptable or constructive and would quite possibly result in a justified, deserved 2B for the member (not to mention "attitude adjustment" from base Security Police in the case of Example No. 5! )

I believe Eclipse to be 100% right in his assessment of the "process"...it simply does not exist, not least in the way you seem to think, Storm Chaser, and I mean that as respectfully as I can make it on an Internet forum.

It galls me that the Air Force took away our metal grade and blue shoulder marks, but there's ze-ro (said in tone of the late Ray Combs) I or anyone in CAP can do about it.

It is indeed a burr under my saddle (©Col. Sherman T. Potter) that we were never given an explanation as to why the CSU was taken away, but I know we are not going to get one, especially this long after the fact.

Those two fall under the "things I cannot change" part of the Serenity Prayer I say nearly every morning.

I don't know if you have any experience with flowcharting, but I had to have an entire semester of it in college along with writing pseudocode.  I have done a very basic flowchart on the possible outcomes of forwarding uniform recommendations up the chain.  If I had dedicated software, I'd do it on that and post it here.

The draft of 39-1 just released tells me that the status quo is entrenched, all NHQ/NUC really did was shore up some needed clarifications and close some very large loopholes.  Therefore, it would be illogical and a waste of time to try to change their collective minds.

After all, what does the opinion of Captain Joe Schmo from Idaho (actually, I have never been to Idaho) matter, especially since said Captain is not in a position of authority or schmoozing with those who do "got the power?"  I have only met two National Commanders (the late General Paul Bergman and another Generalissimo) long enough to shake hands in my entire career in CAP.

This is stated as respectfully as I can make it, but of course sometimes that does not come across well on an Internet forum.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Being prior-service Army and having earned a CMB (first Gulf War), I feel I can comment on this.

I'm fine with that.

Basically, if we're going to wear the AF uniform, then we should abide by the AF regulations for wear of that uniform.  If the AF doesn't allow their own, active-duty airmen and officers to wear these devices (if they somehow earned them), then we should't wear them either.

Now, should I think we should be authorized?  Sure, but that's a gripe at Ma Blue, and not the CAP leadership.

I perceived it as stated as you should know perception is and will be reality.

I can assure you that was not my intent.  I know somebody who is prior AF who earned an Army badge (my step-brother, in fact, who was the smarter of us as he chose AF blue instead of Army green like myself) so I knew it was possible.  I'll chalk this up to a simple misunderstanding.

I have never treated anyone who only had the option of G/W as inferior or second class, period.  And I never will, unlike some I do not discriminate based on the uniform someone can or can not wear.

And that reflects positively upon your character, sir.

I agree as well.

[Shawn W.]

The feedback on the new manual is not the place to recommend this particular policy change, but I'm going to float it here and see what people think.

CAP cadets in the grade of C/Amn to C/CMSgt have not worn cut outs for several years on their uniforms.

Yet we require them to purchase & wear two cutouts on their uniform when they're a C/AB, and then they wouldn't wear a CAP cutout again until they become a cadet officer.

Considering our 1st year and subsequent retention rates, etc, this is kind of silly.  More that 75% of our cadets don't make it to the Mitchell, so they'd wear CAP cutouts only a few times as a C/AB and then never again.

We've made a change to the "SM w/o Grade" flight cap so that they can purchase and wear the "officer" flight cap to avoid buying a 2nd flight cap after six months.  Why not reduce the cost for new cadets a little?

That's Solvable. As the Squadron Logistics Officer, I simply made CAP Cutouts part of a uniform item list that our squadron has approved to be standard issue from the squadron. And, once they pass their first test, they must turn in their Cut Outs in order to recieve thier C/Amn collar insignia. therefore then, the cadets do not have ot buy their own CAP Cutouts.

[Eclipse]

^ A good solution.

Also, considering the myriad factors that result in our first-year churn, I don't believe having to buy cutouts has ever been in the top 10.

[Pulsar]

Question:

3.2.3.1 The intent is for pinned-up hair to be styled in a manner that prevents loose ends
from extending upward on the head. For example, when using a clip or hairpins, hair will
not present the appearance of a "rooster tail"; when hair is in a bun, all loose ends must be
tucked in and secured; when hairstyle based on a ponytail is used, it must be pulled all the
way through the elastic band and may hang naturally downward and not extending below
the bottom of the collar. As with all hairstyles, a neat and professional image is essential.

Does this mean if a female has short enough hair that she can put in a ponytail (being above the bottom of the collar) and it still be in regulation?
Explain please...
Thanks

[SarDragon]

A pony tail that doesn't hang onto the collar is no different than the usual bun seen on many girls. The style MUST allow proper wear of the headgear, though.

[NIN]

^ A good solution.

Also, considering the myriad factors that result in our first-year churn, I don't believe having to buy cutouts has ever been in the top 10.

I agree: good solution.

Cutouts are certainly not in the top ten as far as retention goes,  but when you consider our first year retention,  that's a whole bunch of cutouts that get worn 5-6 times and never again.  .  What a waste.

[a2capt]

We operate on a turn in your existing ones for your next ones, too.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Personally, I believe that SMWOG should be allowed to wear metal cutouts (on BDU's) and have the same "turn them back in" opportunity that others have mentioned they do with their cadets.

Unless they're NCO's, the vast majority of them are going to be sewing on 2nd Lt in six months anyway, so it's a bit of an annoyance to have to put on the cloth BDU's and just take them off again.