What is your reaction?

[ammotrucker]

In planning a SAREX for the Group.  I decided that to of the taskings will be to have an A/C landing, telling the FLM or FLS to notify the Air crew that there A/C is on fire.

At that time they would be escorted to an awaiting Helo and drop off at an undisclosed locating to await rescue.

My question is how OUT OF THE ORIDINARY would this be?
What would your reaction be, if you were the Aircrew?

[cnitas]

I think it is an interesting idea.  Good training for Aircrew in how to get found and be visable. 

They might not like that they will not be flying however...

[ammotrucker]

That was my thought.  We all train for the missions, with the intent that nothing BAD will happen.  I thought it might be interesting to see how a crew would react if placed into a situation that is not so out of the box, but one that no one wants to think about.

There would be other things going on at the same time that culminate into this supposed crash.  AOBD with lost comms.  Redeploying to differant task.  Ground teams with a purpose not just the standard ELT type of training and soforth

I was primarily interested though, in what a aircrew reaction might bring, as everyone know who is doing the planning on this EVENT.

[mikeylikey]

They might not like that they will not be flying however...

Agreed......that could be one of those "touchy" areas we need to tread through lightly!

[Flying Pig]

Are you doing it to see if they are prepared as far as gear/survival equipment?  

As far as "out of the ordinary"  I would suggest having a crew in mind, ie. one that wants to play.  Otherwise you might get a crew that tells you they aren't going to any "undisclosed" location and then your out of luck.

How long do you plan on having them out there?  Are they going to be required to do anything or are they just going to sit on a log?  Maybe some survival training provided to them while they await their "rescue".  Make it worth their while.  As a CAP pilot, I know on many CAP activities I have to take personal vacation/comp time from work to participate, so the I get very agitated when I show up and just sit around.

The helo......
Where is the helo coming from?  Military, privately owned, chartered?  Are there any legal issues with CAP members getting onto non-CAP aircraft during a CAP exercise?   Why a helo vs. just driving them somewhere? (not that a helo wouldn't be cool though)

As far as an Aircrew member..
I would want to know who this helo pilot is and where he is taking me.  Im not getting on just any helo to be taken to an off-site L.Z. by a 50 hr R-22 pilot.  

My Sheriff's Dept did a similar scenario with the Navy.  The F-18 Sq. at Lemoore NAS went on a training flight, and when it was done, the C.O. grabbed 3 pilots, as they were, and they were driven out to the foothills and told they had a mid air collision and just ejected and here is where you landed, now deal with it.

We as the Sheriff were then contacted by NAS to perform the rescue with Navy evaluators observing.   It could be a good deal, but as mentioned above, if an aircrew shows up ready to fly, and then told they aren't, you may get some upset people who didn't clear their calendar to be a Ground Team Target.

And some may take offense that "they" were chosen over someone else, and want to know why the "new guy" doesn't go......You know how it is.....

[ammotrucker]

They might not like that they will not be flying however...

Agreed......that could be one of those "touchy" areas we need to tread through lightly!

In your estimation, you think that it would be a BAD idea.  Or is it more advise them before hand as not to spring it on them.

[♠SARKID♠]

who is the training aimed at?  The aircrews being searched for, the searching aircrews, or the searching ground teams?

[mikeylikey]

Advise the aircrew. 

[ammotrucker]

Are you doing it to see if they are prepared as far as gear/survival equipment?  

As far as "out of the ordinary"  I would suggest having a crew in mind, ie. one that wants to play.  Otherwise you might get a crew that tells you they aren't going to any "undisclosed" location and then your out of luck.

How long do you plan on having them out there?  Are they going to be required to do anything or are they just going to sit on a log?  Maybe some survival training provided to them while they await their "rescue".  Make it worth their while.  As a CAP pilot, I know on many CAP activities I have to take personal vacation/comp time from work to participate, so the I get very agitated when I show up and just sit around.

The helo......
Where is the helo coming from?  Military, privately owned, chartered?  Are there any legal issues with CAP members getting onto non-CAP aircraft during a CAP exercise?   Why a helo vs. just driving them somewhere? (not that a helo wouldn't be cool though)

As far as an Aircrew member..
I would want to know who this helo pilot is and where he is taking me.  Im not getting on just any helo to be taken to an off-site L.Z. by a 50 hr R-22 pilot.  

1.  I have a crew in mind that "normally" will do anying playing you would like.

2. The amount of time involved would be directly related to the ground team finding them, but it should be no more then 8 hours.

3. The Helo is the county sheriffs helo and the pilot is a CAP Major who has over 9000 in type.  To the other part of the question the County will be involved in this SAREX also, because part is on the DR side of ES. 

4. WHY A HELO....... Because we can (effects)

5. Yes it is part to see if they come parpared, but in reality I,  and that is a BIG I thought it might make sense to give someone a first hand look at what can happen.

[ammotrucker]

who is the training aimed at?  The aircrews being searched for, the searching aircrews, or the searching ground teams?

All of the above.

[RiverAux]

It isn't a realistic scenario at all.  If there is a fire on landing, why would the crew be sent off to an undisclosed location to be found?  Wouldn't they be there on the airport?  If the helicopter is supposed to take them somewhere near the airport which is supposed to be their "crashed" plane, then that might be fine, but why waste a helo on this?  Can be done without it.  Use the helo for something more fun and useful. 

[RogueLeader]

It could be used to safely simulate a fire on board, with a crash landing. The helo takes them to where they "crashed."  I doubt actually crashing a plane would ever be approved for a scenario.

[Short Field]

Sounds fine - as long as you wait until the engine is shut down and the aircrew had gotten out of the airplane.  Then give the crew time to get their gear out of the airplane and run the post-flight checklist in a unhurried and professional manner before moving them elsewhere.  Otherwise you have an accident waiting to happen.

[isuhawkeye]

DO NOT, I repeat DO not put a mission manager in the position of thinking he/she actually has a downed aircraft.  That is one of the most stressful, and difficult situations you can put someone in.  If they know its a drill thats one thing, but if they think it is real they will derive NO value from it.  They will become upset, and possibly belligerent.  I have seen this done, and the complaints that followed. 

if everyone walking into the event understands that it is a drill then it could be a great exercise. 

[lordmonar]

As an alternative you can have the aircraft land at another airport with a practice ELT.

Have them call in an "exercise, exercise, exercise" message that they are doing an off field landing.

[IceNine]

  It could be a good deal, but as mentioned above, if an aircrew shows up ready to fly, and then told they aren't, you may get some upset people who didn't clear their calendar to be a Ground Team Target.

This is one of the single biggest issues, people showing up with the notion that "I am therefore I shall".

Just because you are a pilot DOES NOT mean that you are going to fly, or that you deserve to.  If I set this scenario up and had an aircrew tell me NO, they would be grounded.

If you are qualified in a specialty you can and will be used where you are needed regardless of your desires. 

There is no place for people to show up, tell the base staff what they are going to do and expect to get it.  That is simply unreasonable.

As for the question at hand.  Go for it, you will quickly learn who is here to learn and who is here to fly on the AF's dime

[SJFedor]

I plan to do aircraft evacuation drills on my aircrews at the next exercise. Right after the pilot has given the pre-flight briefing.

Just walk up before they start up, and say "At this time, your aircraft is simulated to be on fire. You need to evacuate the aircraft." and start the stopwatch.

We talk about it in the pre-flight briefing (or should),  but when's the last time we actually practiced it?

[RiverAux]

Is it a good use of the time for our aircrews to go sit in the woods and wait for somebody to find them?  We've got plenty of new members and others who can do that role.  If we've got time and money, we need to keep those planes in the air. 

This is a simple matter of allocating resources where we can get the most bang for the buck. 

[dbaran]

I think throwing unexpected things at the base staff is a very good idea.  At our last SAREX, the IC arranged for a cadet to "break his ankle" followed by collapsing and losing consciousness.    As the IC trainee is a paramedic, it was a good distraction to see if the rest of the team could cover.  While this was going on, he pulled the power on the building, told us we had just had a big earthquake, and that  someone else had to figure out how to start the generator.   

For the afternoon, he walked up to a crew that was getting ready to depart and told them when they would "lose communications, " go land somewhere, and sit and wait and that they weren't to respond to anyone (CAP radio, cell phone, etc.) until he came on the radio and gave the magic word.  Of course, he'd arranged for a crisis that the Air Ops people had to deal with so they didn't notice him walk outside to the flight line, etc.

It is great when someone comes up with scenarios like this.   As long as you're careful about who you pick for the unusual assignments, it can produce an excellent learning experience.

[isuhawkeye]

Dont get me wrong glitches, injects, and decision matrix problems are excellent tools for every level of emergency response.  Just make sure people understand the drill components to it. 

[ammotrucker]

It isn't a realistic scenario at all.  If there is a fire on landing, why would the crew be sent off to an undisclosed location to be found?  Wouldn't they be there on the airport?  If the helicopter is supposed to take them somewhere near the airport which is supposed to be their "crashed" plane, then that might be fine, but why waste a helo on this?  Can be done without it.  Use the helo for something more fun and useful. 

The purpose that I invisioned was more to the point of losing COMMS no communication back to MB and then porceeding with the notion that the event took place from a time frame after lost COMMs not a fire on the ramp.

I understand the vital aspect of training to be proficient.  But, we also need to train on things that normally we do not train on.. 

This was menetioned by one of the helo pilots.  That he had undergone a similar mission in a past life.  But, being part of the aircrew.

My mafor point is all the training I have seen.  Is to CUT AND DRIED.  There needs to be some form of being out of the BOX.

[LittleIronPilot]

  It could be a good deal, but as mentioned above, if an aircrew shows up ready to fly, and then told they aren't, you may get some upset people who didn't clear their calendar to be a Ground Team Target.

This is one of the single biggest issues, people showing up with the notion that "I am therefore I shall".

Just because you are a pilot DOES NOT mean that you are going to fly, or that you deserve to.  If I set this scenario up and had an aircrew tell me NO, they would be grounded.

If you are qualified in a specialty you can and will be used where you are needed regardless of your desires. 

There is no place for people to show up, tell the base staff what they are going to do and expect to get it.  That is simply unreasonable.

As for the question at hand.  Go for it, you will quickly learn who is here to learn and who is here to fly on the AF's dime

Thank you!

As our squadron ES officer, I want our people to cross-train as much as possible in all ES quals. Why? Simple...to fulfill the mission.

If someone is down (for real) and both birds are full-up by the time you get there and you are ES qual'ed in GTM....you are going on a van, or at least you should be willing to get on the van. If you are not willing then why are you in CAP?

[RiverAux]

For the afternoon, he walked up to a crew that was getting ready to depart and told them when they would "lose communications, " go land somewhere, and sit and wait and that they weren't to respond to anyone

Personally I am not a big fan of this sort of thing because I would treat this as an actual SAR situation and would start notifying other agencies of a missing airplane unless it was resolved within a very short period of time.   

[JayT]

In planning a SAREX for the Group.  I decided that to of the taskings will be to have an A/C landing, telling the FLM or FLS to notify the Air crew that there A/C is on fire.

At that time they would be escorted to an awaiting Helo and drop off at an undisclosed locating to await rescue.

My question is how OUT OF THE ORIDINARY would this be?
What would your reaction be, if you were the Aircrew?

Homicidal rage?

[baronet68]

I think throwing unexpected things at the base staff is a very good idea.  At our last SAREX, the IC arranged for a cadet to "break his ankle" followed by collapsing and losing consciousness.    As the IC trainee is a paramedic, it was a good distraction to see if the rest of the team could cover.  While this was going on, he pulled the power on the building, told us we had just had a big earthquake, and that  someone else had to figure out how to start the generator...

WAWG's Group III did something similar during a Sarex - Mission base was located near Mount Rainier (volcano) which had a simulated eruption at about 10am.  The entire operation was moved to another base 70 miles away without missing a beat.  Very stressful, but very successful too.

Edit: The 'eruption' was unplanned so it really caught people off guard and exposed real problems, like having an aircrew that couldn't immediately go home because their POVs were 70 miles away from where they landed.