It's finally here!

[Luis R. Ramos]

Hmmm. It seems that many people who never bothered to read the current CAPM 39-1 are now reading the proposed 39-1... and are shocked!



Flyer

[Eclipse]

Hmmm. It seems that many people who never bothered to read the current CAPM 39-1 are now reading the proposed 39-1... and are shocked!

"Ducks shall wear long pants."

[PHall]

I completely forgot about this gem:

The CAWG Ground Team uniform is still completely absent from 39-1. You would think there would be some mention of it, since the manual states many times over how the only things local CC's can change are hat colors and whatnot. A bright orange shirt with some patches and blue utility pants isn't mentioned once.

Why would something that only applies to ONE wing be in the national regulation?

That's what Wing Supplements are for.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

My uniform ideas would probably make people crazy.

Let's hear them!

No offence to anyone concerned, but what's the point?

NHQ and CAP-USAF's position on anything but the status quo has hardened ever since the CSU debacle.

I had a complete on-paper proposal for very slight modifications to the "corporate" uniform but there is no reason to send them through the chain just to end up in someone's CS file.

Anyway, my uniform ideas have caused enough heartburn here.

...this is where we should look to the CG Aux.

As a former Auxiliarist (thinking of going back) it's apples and oranges.

The CGAUX has a much, much, much closer and less adversarial relationship with its parent service regarding uniform issues.  Never once during my years in the CGAUX did I hear anything serious about junking the CG uniform entirely.  You may be surprised at the number of people in CAP today who would have us do that, except for the cadets.  I remember a Lt Col in a senior squadron telling me, "We shouldn't be wearing the Air Force uniform at all.  We have our own uniforms."

Nor do I remember any apocryphal stories of CGAUX personnel trolling for salutes.  Remember, even the National Commodore of the CGAUX has to render a salute to the newest warrant officer/ensign.

I can be sarky and say the big difference is one auxiliary's parent service likes and appreciates them, and the other feels like they have to keep theirs on a short leash, at least regarding uniforms.

[Eclipse]

Nor do I remember any apocryphal stories of CGAUX personnel trolling for salutes.  Remember, even the National Commodore of the CGAUX has to render a salute to the newest warrant officer/ensign.

Well that's silly, too.

[abdsp51]

Cyborg, why are you so adamant about changing the G/W?  Why are you so insistent on having a hat for it?  Why are you so insistent on us mirroring a foreign country's uniform so much? 

Outside of the G/W being grey what is your solid beef with it?  You have some major heartburn about this but you have not taken any steps to fix what you feel is wrong. 

Please if you feel this bad about it submit your recommendations for changes up the chain, and please let's keep the CSU dead. 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Cyborg, why are you so adamant about changing the G/W?

I am not.  I have no power to do so, and, as I said I formulated a proposal to change it but abandoned it because the chances are extremely good that it would end up in someone's CS file along the way.  In fact, I have one and wear it as well as I can, despite not liking it.

Why are you so insistent on having a hat for it? 

Outside, I feel very strange saluting and returning salutes uncovered.

Why are you so insistent on us mirroring a foreign country's uniform so much? 

Where have I said I wanted us to adopt a foreign uniform?  Do you mean pictures I have posted purely for illustrations of headgear and different cuts/colours?  My ideas were to make it closer to a civilian, airline uniform, using items readily available at civilian sources like Sporty's Pilot Shop.

Or do you mean just because I have suggested a beret as a possible headgear?

Outside of the G/W being grey what is your solid beef with it? 

It is monochromatic.  It does not reflect either the heritage of CAP, nor have much to do with aviation in general (civilian as well as military).  It does not have a proper service coat where one's earned CAP awards can be worn.  Nor are the powers that be likely to allow such awards to be worn on the blazer.

My main suggestions would have been either a light- or dark-blue civilian uniform shirt to replace the white one.  No replacement of the grey trousers, no changes to the shoulder marks or nameplate.

You have some major heartburn about this but you have not taken any steps to fix what you feel is wrong. 

Thank you for your diagnosis, Herr Doktor.  However, I assure you I am quite serene.  When I do have heartburn, it's an occasional Tums to take care of it.

I have talked to people a lot further up the food chain than I about my suggested changes and, to a man/woman, they have said, "they (meaning CAP and CAP-USAF) will never go for it, especially in the aftermath of the CSU."

Please if you feel this bad about it submit your recommendations for changes up the chain, and please let's keep the CSU dead.

Given the feedback I have received it would be illogical and a waste of effort to do so, and I have never suggested bringing back the CSU.  I am not an idealist.

Now, sir, I would ask you:

IF you support the status quo with the G/W so much, why is that?

Do you actually consider it an attractive uniform, or is it the "convenience" aspect that appeals to you?

Why are you AGAINST having headgear for it?

Incidentally...I think CT has an option to ignore a user.  If my posts irritate you, I suggest you use it.

[Eclipse]

I think CT has an option to ignore a user.

Doesn't work.

[abdsp51]

Given the feedback I have received it would be illogical and a waste of effort to do so, and I have never suggested bringing back the CSU.  I am not an idealist.

Now, sir, I would ask you:

IF you support the status quo with the G/W so much, why is that?

Do you actually consider it an attractive uniform, or is it the "convenience" aspect that appeals to you?

Why are you AGAINST having headgear for it?

Incidentally...I think CT has an option to ignore a user.  If my posts irritate you, I suggest you use it.

1) I have no issues with the uniform and I don't look at it for attractiveness.  It's a prescribed and authorized uniform and it works for it's purpose.

2) Not every uniform requires headgear and change for the sake of change is not worthwhile.

3) Your posts do not irritate me.  I do think that you need to quit beating a dead horse on some issues.

[Fubar]

I think CT has an option to ignore a user.

Doesn't work.

Tap, tap, is this thing on? (If you can see this, then I guess the ignore option didn't work for you) 

[Storm Chaser]

My uniform ideas would probably make people crazy.

Let's hear them!

No offence to anyone concerned, but what's the point?

NHQ and CAP-USAF's position on anything but the status quo has hardened ever since the CSU debacle.

I had a complete on-paper proposal for very slight modifications to the "corporate" uniform but there is no reason to send them through the chain just to end up in someone's CS file.

How do you really feel about CAP uniform policies? 

[Shuman 14]

My uniform ideas would probably make people crazy.

Let's hear them!

Seconded.

BTW, what are your thoughts on khaki? 

[Shuman 14]

I completely disagree with the prohibition of wearing military awards and badges on the Corporate uniform. Regardless of the reasons given its just wrong and a slap in the face to those who served honorably but now in their later years have put on a few pounds. Wrong... just plan wrong.

As someone who has never in my life been outside the HW standards and has always been able to wear blue - I still agree with you.  I can imagine no possible harm from allowing this.  I do not understand the logic at all.

Nor do I understand the limitations now imposed on the blue uniform.  I myself have only airborne wings and so again, the new CAP regulations do not affect me, but this is where we should look to the CG Aux.  I did not earn my airborne wings in the Coast Guard and so if I was reserve could not wear them, but on an AUX uniform they are allowed.

I also like the fact the USCGAux limits you to two badges: one above the ribbons, and one on the pocket flap. Members choice of which two earned badges to wear.

My only two badges are a German GAFET and an Expert Badge with pistol bar so I only wear the shooting badge.

[Shuman 14]

Nor do I remember any apocryphal stories of CGAUX personnel trolling for salutes.  Remember, even the National Commodore of the CGAUX has to render a salute to the newest warrant officer/ensign.

Well that's silly, too.

No it's not. It a matter of respect, we are the volunteers without rank, they are the paid professional officers, makes perfect sense to me.

[Eclipse]

No it's not. It a matter of respect, we are the volunteers without rank, they are the paid professional officers, makes perfect sense to me.

"We"?

The assumption that our service, in its context, is secondary, or less, is both misguided and false.

It is different, plain and simple.  Exchanging salutes, as a sign of mutual respect, is appropriate.  If that's too much to ask,
then perhaps it's time both parties got over themselves, because neither understands the question.

Our members serve honorably, and generally at their own expense and during their off hours and vacations, in an organization
that the United States Congress has chartered and funds which is authorized to appoint those same members to grades
which have a military analog.  That isn't "higher or lower" it simply is.

[Panache]

Cyborg, why are you so adamant about changing the G/W?  Why are you so insistent on having a hat for it?

I'm a supporter of a hat for the G/Ws as well.  Why?  Because you look like a tool in a button-down oxford shirt and gray slacks while wearing a baseball cap.  And some days the weather just demands headgear.

Also, as for the "white" part of "Gray & Whites"... well... white is boring.  I'm not a fan of white shirts in general.  I kinda like Cyborg's "royal blue pilot shirt" idea.  I think it looks spiffy.  (/shrug)

Please if you feel this bad about it submit your recommendations for changes up the chain, and please let's keep the CSU dead.

Never having worn the CSU, what exactly was wrong/bad about it, other than the taint of His Royal Majesty?

[Panache]

No it's not. It a matter of respect, we are the volunteers without rank, they are the paid professional officers, makes perfect sense to me.

Having worked in Army Medical, I can tell you some stories about some so-called "professional" officers...

[abdsp51]

Last time I checked a uniform had it's purpose and flashy wasn't one of them.  Not every uniform needs a hat and if the membership has an issue with the uniform there is the process to recommend changes.  So far the only folks I have heard orseen have an issue with the G/W are those who choose to not abide by H/W and grooming and self defeat themselves when it comes to it.  And IMO the only reason I have heard for change is just to change.

[AlphaSigOU]

As a side note, FLWG has a supplement that prohibits the blue beret, even for NBB graduates, at military installations within the wing.

If the headgear is OK / appropriate to wear elsewhere, it's appropriate to wear on a military base,
and if you're embarrassed to wear it in front of dad, then you probably shouldn't wear it at all.

It's the CAP equivalent of a girl walking out the front door in jeans and a t-shirt and then changing into
something her parents would hate in the car.

If I remember correctly this rule was imposed so as not to confuse CAPers with Security Forces, who wear the blue beret.

[Storm Chaser]

As a side note, FLWG has a supplement that prohibits the blue beret, even for NBB graduates, at military installations within the wing.

If the headgear is OK / appropriate to wear elsewhere, it's appropriate to wear on a military base,
and if you're embarrassed to wear it in front of dad, then you probably shouldn't wear it at all.

It's the CAP equivalent of a girl walking out the front door in jeans and a t-shirt and then changing into
something her parents would hate in the car.

If I remember correctly this rule was imposed so as not to confuse CAPers with Security Forces, who wear the blue beret.

I can see how a 16 year old cadet wearing BDUs could be confused with Air Force Security Forces personnel... Wait! What? 

This policy applies to ALL military installations (last I check only the Air Force uses blue berets). TACP airmen wear black berets, but no one's ever been concerned that they may be confused with Army soldiers.

Besides, since the Air Force HAS (mostly likely) authorized CAP to wear the blue beret with BDUs and the blue beret has been in use for at least a couple of decades, I'm not sure where the concern comes from. Besides, Florida is not the only wing with military installations, yet no such restriction exists (that I'm aware of) in the other wings. I'm with Eclipse on this. Either the beret is appropriate for wear or it's not.