It's finally here!

[a2capt]

Can we get these etched on some stone tablets, to go?

I think there were more someplace .. I think they got lost somewhere in the threads..
Mel Brooks as Moses

[JK657]

As this thread seems to lose its steam I just had a quick observation. After all this time I and probably most of us assumed the release of 39-1 proposed revisions would have led to a record breaking discussion here on CAPTALK.

I think that due to the quality work done by NIN and the other members of the uniform committee on this document the gripes, complaints, etc are pretty minor. Of course there are some changes and areas to improve, but overall, well done!

[RiverAux]

It made it in the top 10 threads (based on # of replies). 

Though if discussion had remained focused only on actual mistakes in the draft, we would have had many fewer pages.

[Papabird]

I think that due to the quality work done by NIN and the other members of the uniform committee on this document the gripes, complaints, etc are pretty minor. Of course there are some changes and areas to improve, but overall, well done!

Here here!  Good discussions here, but all in all, I say bravo!

[NIN]

I think that due to the quality work done by NIN and the other members of the uniform committee on this document the gripes, complaints, etc are pretty minor. Of course there are some changes and areas to improve, but overall, well done!

I'm not a member of the uniform committee, FYI. I have a little "pre-knowledge" but thats about it.

My uniform ideas would probably make people crazy.

[Storm Chaser]

My uniform ideas would probably make people crazy.

Let's hear them!

[A.Member]

I saw a couple references throughout this thread that I'm hoping someone can shed some light on:

Berets and orange hats:  Up until discussion here, I thought this was simply an oversight/error in wording in that these were only authorized during the special activities to which they are traditionally associated - ie National Blue Beret and Hawk Mountain.   

However, in reading here am I correct to understand that all PA Wing is authorized wear of the orange hat all the time?  Likewise, there are a couple Wings wear berets as regular headgear as well?   

If this is correct, can some provide me with some of the insight/justsification behind this?   If so, why is it allowed to continue?   Is it one of these instances where no one any longer recalls but it's been that way for so long that it's "just the way we've always done it"?

[Storm Chaser]

I saw a couple references throughout this thread that I'm hoping someone can shed some light on:

Berets and orange hats:  Up until discussion here, I thought this was simply an oversight/error in wording in that these were only authorized during the special activities to which they are traditionally associated - ie National Blue Beret and Hawk Mountain.   

However, in reading here am I correct to understand that all PA Wing is authorized wear of the orange hat all the time?  Likewise, there are a couple Wings wear berets as regular headgear as well?   

If this is correct, can some provide me with some of the insight/justsification behind this?   If so, why is it allowed to continue?   Is it one of these instances where no one any longer recalls but it's been that way for so long that it's "just the way we've always done it"?

Under the current CAPM 39-1, wing commanders can authorized a baseball cap and/or blue beret for wear within their wings. In PAWG, they have a supplement authorizing the orange baseball cap. Other wings (PRWG comes to mind) have authorized the blue beret for special purposes. The ICL dated 12 March 2012 authorized all NBB graduates to wear the blue beret outside the activity. The new CAPM 39-1 draft have included that changed.

[A.Member]

I saw a couple references throughout this thread that I'm hoping someone can shed some light on:

Berets and orange hats:  Up until discussion here, I thought this was simply an oversight/error in wording in that these were only authorized during the special activities to which they are traditionally associated - ie National Blue Beret and Hawk Mountain.   

However, in reading here am I correct to understand that all PA Wing is authorized wear of the orange hat all the time?  Likewise, there are a couple Wings wear berets as regular headgear as well?   

If this is correct, can some provide me with some of the insight/justsification behind this?   If so, why is it allowed to continue?   Is it one of these instances where no one any longer recalls but it's been that way for so long that it's "just the way we've always done it"?

Under the current CAPM 39-1, wing commanders can authorized a baseball cap and/or blue beret for wear within their wings. In PAWG, they have a supplement authorizing the orange baseball cap. Other wings (PRWG comes to mind) have authorized the blue beret for special purposes. The ICL dated 12 March 2012 authorized all NBB graduates to wear the blue beret outside the activity. The new CAPM 39-1 draft have included that changed.

OK, that explains the beret, I guess (although it's silly for regular wear IMO).   

However, it is still problematic for the orange hat, which now seems on a path to be codified in this latest draft.  A supplement allows for the wear of something that is authorized as optional or provides additional clarification within the regulation.   It doesn't allow authorization of something that is otherwise prohibited - ie. a Wing CC can't go an authorize a polka-dot t-shirts as the Wing uniform.  Thus, I'm not sure how the orange hat was ever allowed.

Anyway, I'm not in either of those Wings, so I have more important things to be concerned with.  However, you'd think National would resolve this by putting the word "uniform" back in the uniform regulation.  I was just curious as to how it came to be.

[Eclipse]

However, in reading here am I correct to understand that all PA Wing is authorized wear of the orange hat all the time?

Not "authorized", required - that's part of the heartburn with members not so inclined.

Likewise, there are a couple Wings wear berets as regular headgear as well?

INWG authorizes them for GTs.  I'm not aware of any wings that authroize the beret as the standard field uniform hat.
Considering berets aren't supposed to be worn in the field, that wouldn't be a very good idea.

[Storm Chaser]

INWG authorizes them for GTs.

PRWG authorizes them for graduates of their Wing GT School.

As a side note, FLWG has a supplement that prohibits the blue beret, even for NBB graduates, at military installations within the wing.

[A.Member]

Considering berets aren't supposed to be worn in the field, that wouldn't be a very good idea.

Stong concur...that's why I thought it was kind of silly.

[Eclipse]

As a side note, FLWG has a supplement that prohibits the blue beret, even for NBB graduates, at military installations within the wing.

If the headgear is OK / appropriate to wear elsewhere, it's appropriate to wear on a military base,
and if you're embarrassed to wear it in front of dad, then you probably shouldn't wear it at all.

It's the CAP equivalent of a girl walking out the front door in jeans and a t-shirt and then changing into
something her parents would hate in the car.

[Storm Chaser]

^ Agree.

[VNY]

I completely disagree with the prohibition of wearing military awards and badges on the Corporate uniform. Regardless of the reasons given its just wrong and a slap in the face to those who served honorably but now in their later years have put on a few pounds. Wrong... just plan wrong.

As someone who has never in my life been outside the HW standards and has always been able to wear blue - I still agree with you.  I can imagine no possible harm from allowing this.  I do not understand the logic at all.

Nor do I understand the limitations now imposed on the blue uniform.  I myself have only airborne wings and so again, the new CAP regulations do not affect me, but this is where we should look to the CG Aux.  I did not earn my airborne wings in the Coast Guard and so if I was reserve could not wear them, but on an AUX uniform they are allowed.

[lordmonar]

I saw a couple references throughout this thread that I'm hoping someone can shed some light on:

Berets and orange hats:  Up until discussion here, I thought this was simply an oversight/error in wording in that these were only authorized during the special activities to which they are traditionally associated - ie National Blue Beret and Hawk Mountain.   

However, in reading here am I correct to understand that all PA Wing is authorized wear of the orange hat all the time?  Likewise, there are a couple Wings wear berets as regular headgear as well?   

If this is correct, can some provide me with some of the insight/justsification behind this?   If so, why is it allowed to continue?   Is it one of these instances where no one any longer recalls but it's been that way for so long that it's "just the way we've always done it"?

Under the current CAPM 39-1, wing commanders can authorized a baseball cap and/or blue beret for wear within their wings. In PAWG, they have a supplement authorizing the orange baseball cap. Other wings (PRWG comes to mind) have authorized the blue beret for special purposes. The ICL dated 12 March 2012 authorized all NBB graduates to wear the blue beret outside the activity. The new CAPM 39-1 draft have included that changed.

OK, that explains the beret, I guess (although it's silly for regular wear IMO).   

However, it is still problematic for the orange hat, which now seems on a path to be codified in this latest draft.  A supplement allows for the wear of something that is authorized as optional or provides additional clarification within the regulation.   It doesn't allow authorization of something that is otherwise prohibited - ie. a Wing CC can't go an authorize a polka-dot t-shirts as the Wing uniform.  Thus, I'm not sure how the orange hat was ever allowed.

Anyway, I'm not in either of those Wings, so I have more important things to be concerned with.  However, you'd think National would resolve this by putting the word "uniform" back in the uniform regulation.  I was just curious as to how it came to be.

Please show me in either the current or draft manual that says commanders cannot dictate the color of the hat?

Hold on tight....it doesn't.......even in the big USAF...in the BDU/fatigue days.....squadron commanders could authorise any color hat they wanted.

So.....again......orange base ball hat....okay.  Orange T-shirt......not okay...old or new regulation....because the T-shirt color is dictated to only  few colors. 

[Storm Chaser]

So.....again......orange base ball hat....okay.  Orange T-shirt......not okay...old or new regulation....because the T-shirt color is dictated to only  few colors.

Actually, the current CAPM 39-1, Table 2-3, Line 12, page 63 seems to allow unit commanders to prescribe the color of t-shirts, if I'm reading it correctly. Unless the color refers to the emblem on the t-shirt (it's not written very clearly). That said, the PAWG supplement authorizing the orange t-shirt refers to this table/line.

[Eclipse]

Nor do I understand the limitations now imposed on the blue uniform. 

Now imposed?

Nothing's changed recently on the USAF-style blues, nor does much look to change in the draft.

[kd8gua]

I completely forgot about this gem:

The CAWG Ground Team uniform is still completely absent from 39-1. You would think there would be some mention of it, since the manual states many times over how the only things local CC's can change are hat colors and whatnot. A bright orange shirt with some patches and blue utility pants isn't mentioned once.

[Eclipse]

Wing CC's are still free to request a supplement to fit their wing's specific needs.

The "local commanders" verbiage is what can be changed without a nationally approved supp.

Frankly, there's no reason any of this local stuff should be in the regulations - if wing CCs think it's important,
then they should be burdened with properly maintaining the supplements.  Then if a new wing CC comes in
and has had "enough" of something, he can simply not renew them under his name when he re-ups everything else,
and no need for action by the NUC or anyone else in changing the national regs.