It's finally here!

[Devil Doc]

The AFI 36-2903 doesn't allow any other (non-USAF) military badges to be worn on the Air Force uniform except for aeronautical badges awarded by other services.

There are some execptions.....but they don't apply to anyone in CAP......No JTACs or SF Rangers here .

I meant I tried, NHQ and Wing, Tried to use Chain of Command First. Now wait an Darn Minute, what does it matter if they are JTACS or SF Rangers? They get to wear there stuff? What makes them so special?

[teesquared]

What about wings from Ground Observer Corps, which used to be another USAF Auxiliary back in the 50's?

[NIN]

7. Sleeve crease on the Blues shirt. The only reference is in the Honor Guard section. Ma Blue creases at the back edge of the epaulet, where the material naturally allows for a crease. CAP has maintained this more difficult standard of "centered on epaulet."

Actually that requirement came only with the publishing of the current CAPM39-1 (2005).  The previous 1997 edition never once stated where the crease should be.  Therefore, I wore it where the crease naturally fell on all the shirts I bought.  That would be behind my epaulet.  Removing this requirement was a good and the correct thing to do.

I always told my cadets "if the USAF had wanted you to crease that shirt in the middle of the epaulet, they wouldn't have spent millions of dollars telling the manufacturer to put the crease on the back edge."

[MSG Mac]

What about wings from Ground Observer Corps, which used to be another USAF Auxiliary back in the 50's?

If I recall, they observed with binoculars.

[NIN]

On the whole heraldry, patch design, and the historian guidelines.. If their intention is to force everyone into a redesign phase.. I see it as nothing more than a historian program gone amok. Beating the "Look at the power I have" drum. I'm not happy with any of it. As a "from here on out going forward" thing, I'd see a lot less problem with it, and I don't mean "until reordering", I mean leave everyones stuff alone. It hasn't caused problems in 70+ years, channel that energy somewhere else.
This is really for the other thread anyway. [/font]

BTW, this got lost in the din, but its an example of why we need to be a little more cautious when quoting and complaining about aspects of the draft.

using the para 2.8.3 example, it was stated by a poster early on "5. Compliance for all wing and unit patches with USAF Heraldry Guidelines. Most Wing patches and many unit patches will have to be redone. And guess what? Under those guidelines, they must feature the colors Gold and Ultramarine. Why have dark blue and ultramarine blue on a uniform. Talk about clown suiting the whole uniform!"
and then requoted a few posts later
"2.8.3 - Wing Commanders must ensure all wing/unit patches follow USAF Heraldry Guidelines. That means shield shaped wing patches and circular squadron patches, and use of gold borders and ultramarine within the design."

but thats not really what 2.8.3 says.

So we've managed to mis-quote the paragraph in our zeal to make a point. Which causes others to go off on bogus info and not look it up and read it themselves.

So if you're going to discuss it, be accurate in your characterization of the text:

"2.8.3 The wing commander is the approval authority for organizational patches worn by subordinate units within the wing and will ensure that new patches meet the intent of the USAF heraldic guidelines published by the Air Force Historical Research Agency and the CAP National Historian Program. Patches approved for wear will be full color and not "subdued" in their composition." 

Emphasis mine.

[Eclipse]

Bye-bye dog bowls:

"6.2.10.1 The BDU cap will be composed of a cloth woodland camouflage print, and the back half of the baseball style cap may be plastic mesh. The BDU cap will rest squarely on the head with the bottom of the cap parallel with the ground. The brim of the cap will face forward. Cap may not be pushed, rolled, folded or tucked in (e.g. ranger fold)."

Applies to both camo and blue field.

[lordmonar]

Bye-bye dog bowls:

"6.2.10.1 The BDU cap will be composed of a cloth woodland camouflage print, and the back half of the baseball style cap may be plastic mesh. The BDU cap will rest squarely on the head with the bottom of the cap parallel with the ground. The brim of the cap will face forward. Cap may not be pushed, rolled, folded or tucked in (e.g. ranger fold)."

Applies to both camo and blue field.

that was in the last 39-1........only command influence is going to stop it.

[lordmonar]

The AFI 36-2903 doesn't allow any other (non-USAF) military badges to be worn on the Air Force uniform except for aeronautical badges awarded by other services.

There are some execptions.....but they don't apply to anyone in CAP......No JTACs or SF Rangers here .

I meant I tried, NHQ and Wing, Tried to use Chain of Command First. Now wait an Darn Minute, what does it matter if they are JTACS or SF Rangers? They get to wear there stuff? What makes them so special?

The explanation I was told.....since they are embeded with the army........and the army plays those "My Jonson is bigger then your Johnson" by the bling they wear (Air Assault, Combat patch, CIB, EIB, etc) then the USAF guys assigned to army units get to wear "army" bling while they are assigned to those units.

Which really tickled my funny bone when the bling haters here on CAPTALK talked about how bling was not important to "real professionals". 

[Devil Doc]

Understandable, but...

If people understood what it takes to get an Navy Warfare Qualification, they would think twice that it is not that important. My impression is this, if it is an "Military" qualification you should be able to wear it. We are "Not" AF,USN, USA, USCG, and USMC. We are the Civil Air Patrol, on that matter we don't have to follow the guidelines of the AF, I know why we do, (they are letting us wear the Uniform) but I digress...

Oh well, Atleast I can wear my Military Ribbons, Which tells a lot just by themselves.

[NIN]

Understandable, but...

If people understood what it takes to get an Navy Warfare Qualification, they would think twice that it is not that important. My impression is this, if it is an "Military" qualification you should be able to wear it. We are "Not" AF,USN, USA, USCG, and USMC. We are the Civil Air Patrol, on that matter we don't have to follow the guidelines of the AF, I know why we do, (they are letting us wear the Uniform) but I digress...

Oh well, Atleast I can wear my Military Ribbons, Which tells a lot just by themselves.

It takes a lot to get a Ranger Tab, too. You don't get to wear it on the Air Force uniform. 

(yes, yes, TACPs, CCTs, blah, blah, blah...)

And while you're right, we're not the AF, we are wearing their uniform and we take the basis of the guidelines from them. 

[JeffDG]

Which really tickled my funny bone when the bling haters here on CAPTALK talked about how bling was not important to "real professionals". 

Yeah, this guy's not a "real professional" at all...no bling at all...

[kd8gua]

I saw my oversight RE: Wing/Unit patch heraldry guidelines and have since rescinded my position on that. I merely did not see the word "new."

On another aspect in regards to BDU headgear. Obviously we know boonie hats are still not allowed, but did anyone else notice that the standard Patrol-style cap is no longer authorized either? 6.2.10.1 specifically mentions baseball style BDU caps but not patrol-style. However, in 6.2.12.1, the patrol cap is specifically mentioned as the only style for BBDU.

In my wing, every surplus store has tons of new, used, and surplus BDUs, and they all carry the patrol cap. I don't think I've ever seen a BDU baseball cap for sale in a surplus store...

[abdsp51]

It takes a lot to get a Ranger Tab, too. You don't get to wear it on the Air Force uniform. 

(yes, yes, TACPs, CCTs, blah, blah, blah...)

And while you're right, we're not the AF, we are wearing their uniform and we take the basis of the guidelines from them.

actually as of the updates to 36-2903 you can wear a ranger tab. 

[NIN]

actually as of the updates to 36-2903 you can wear a ranger tab.

Cite?

[NIN]

I saw my oversight RE: Wing/Unit patch heraldry guidelines and have since rescinded my position on that. I merely did not see the word "new."

On another aspect in regards to BDU headgear. Obviously we know boonie hats are still not allowed, but did anyone else notice that the standard Patrol-style cap is no longer authorized either? 6.2.10.1 specifically mentions baseball style BDU caps but not patrol-style. However, in 6.2.12.1, the patrol cap is specifically mentioned as the only style for BBDU.

In my wing, every surplus store has tons of new, used, and surplus BDUs, and they all carry the patrol cap. I don't think I've ever seen a BDU baseball cap for sale in a surplus store...

I'm scratching my head over this. I believe this to be an editing error.

It munges together the description for the "patrol cap" and the camouflage mesh baseball cap. 

[Eclipse]

Which really tickled my funny bone when the bling haters here on CAPTALK talked about how bling was not important to "real professionals". 

Yeah, this guy's not a "real professional" at all...no bling at all...

Not a field uniform.

[PHall]

It takes a lot to get a Ranger Tab, too. You don't get to wear it on the Air Force uniform. 

(yes, yes, TACPs, CCTs, blah, blah, blah...)

And while you're right, we're not the AF, we are wearing their uniform and we take the basis of the guidelines from them.

actually as of the updates to 36-2903 you can wear a ranger tab.

Yeah, if you're assigned to an Army unit and have completed the Ranger Qualification Course.

[a2capt]

I'm scratching my head over this. I believe this to be an editing error.
It munges together the description for the "patrol cap" and the camouflage mesh baseball cap.

I sure hope that's an oversight, otherwise it's another "lets make members spend money" movement that's counter productive and wasteful.  There's nothing wrong with the BDU hats I've got now, and I hate cheesy baseball caps. Blech.

[PHall]

Which really tickled my funny bone when the bling haters here on CAPTALK talked about how bling was not important to "real professionals". 

Yeah, this guy's not a "real professional" at all...no bling at all...

You're comparing apples and watermelons here.

The US military seems to have gone bling crazy over the past 30 years or so.
Most other countries haven't.

[Eclipse]

The US military seems to have gone bling crazy over the past 30 years or so.
Most other countries haven't.

So true...oh, wait...