Reflective Vest

[cadetesman]

Hey all, I'm getting back into ES, and have a question about making my own reflective vest.

I have a decent black tac best which works for my gear, but wearing a reflective vest over it can get rather annoying.

So I have proposed a hybrid, which is painting the vest orange and putting a whole lot of reflective orange and silver tape on it...

Would this actually work for GTM and UDF, and as a general vest?

Thanks to all, just an idea I have.

[Eclipse]

You can't paint nylon fabric in anyway that won't look like you fell off a turnip truck.  It will crack, wear off, and flake all over the place.

As to adding the stripes, I did it with Velcro on a black vest - sew the Velcro onto the pockets, then sew it onto the fabric strips, cut to shape.  I have seen others do this as well, the results can be fairly good if you take your time.

I am looking to do that myself to an orange vest, but can't bring myself to cut cloth for fear of ruining the relatively expensive striping and the very expensive vest.

Bear in mind, also, that for you efforts, sine the vest will never be legit ANSI II, a GTL would be well within his rights to still make you put a legal one on over your monstrosity.

[cadetesman]

I was thinking about taking my normal ANSI II vest, cutting it, and putting it onto my tac vest, via Velcro...

Eclipse, would this actually work?

Thanks

[a2capt]

Is not part of the ANSI II specification the amount of reflective material, and possibly the amount of color otherwise?

[SarDragon]

I was thinking about taking my normal ANSI II vest, cutting it, and putting it onto my tac vest, via Velcro...

Eclipse, would this actually work?

Thanks

Then it won't have strict ANSI compliance. Here are the basic rules.

Is not part of the ANSI II specification the amount of reflective material, and possibly the amount of color otherwise?

Indeed it is. Link above.

[Eclipse]

Is not part of the ANSI II specification the amount of reflective material, and possibly the amount of color otherwise?

Yes - it's the base color, plus a high-contrast color and with reflectivity. The contrast color has to cover "x" percentage of the
total vest.

Based on scratch-pad math, and checking out far too many vests online, the plan I have for mine should meet the
intent, if not the letter of the specification, but that assumes it isn't just a pile of straps and pockets when I'm done.

I was thinking about taking my normal ANSI II vest, cutting it, and putting it onto my tac vest, via Velcro...

Eclipse, would this actually work?

Functionally, yes, spec-wise, maybe, but if it's a black vest, you're never going to get it a proper blaze orange that
doesn't look horrible.  Seriously, I'm picturing the most amazing coloring job in the history of painting coupled
with Betsy-Ross like sewing skills, and the first time you open a pocket, or twist in the thing, 1/2 the paint is going
to flake off.

In the olden days, the regs were not as specific about the vest being the top garment, so a number of people in my AOR
added retro-reflective strips to their tac vests and wore then over an orange vest - seemed to work fine.

Once CAP mandated ANSI II as the top garment, I got rid of my tac vest because I knew it could never work.
I only have the orange one because it was given to me for free for doing a review, otherwise I'd be going and
buying a lime-yellow ANSI II tac or firefighter vest and moving on.

As it is, I'm considering going to the orange one above for teaching motorcycle safety - I currently wear a black one
with some reflective striping.  That's why I'm reluctant to start sewing on this one, even though the
striping and the vest are sitting here calling my name.

[cadetesman]

I'm thinking I may just suck it up and wear the reflective vest over the tac vest...

I'm honestly surprised they don't make tactical type ANSI vests...I know there has to be some sort of interest in them outside of CAP.

[cadetesman]

Normally I'd just use a backpack like most people, but the vest just makes getting equipment out quite easy, and I store stuff such as gloves, pens, paper, some first aid stuff, radio, and other stuff in it, in addition to being able to hook my patrol belt and canteens to it via the clips on the bottom.

[SarDragon]

There are some ANSI vests out there with pockets and MOLLE loops, but they don's have the same capacity as a good tac vest.

[Eclipse]

I'm thinking I may just suck it up and wear the reflective vest over the tac vest...

I'm honestly surprised they don't make tactical type ANSI vests...I know there has to be some sort of interest in them outside of CAP.

They do - search is your friend, there's a number that have been suggested and discussed on this board.

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=16199.msg292130;topicseen#msg292130

[SarDragon]

As discussed in another thread, this one doesn't appear to be ANSI compliant.

[a2capt]

As discussed in another thread, this one doesn't appear to be ANSI compliant.

It may very well be.. and just rendered pointless when covered with all that parasite drag ..

My "kit" stays in vehicle that brought me there. I work from that. I don't need to look like a superhero dashing through the woods. I'm done with that stuff. Someone has to drive the team there.

[CavScout]

So I've gone over the regulations just in 62-1, and no one has been able to produce the letter/mandate saying otherwise that I've seen.

Here's how it reads:
CAP personnel WILL wear safety apparel for all "ground" activities.
Safety VESTS are APPROVED for wear over the BDU and Corp uniforms, and MUST be ANSI 2 or 3 COMPLIANT.
Safety APPARELL are APPROVED for wear over the Corp uniform, and MUST be ANSI 2 or 3 CERTIFIED (noted on a tag).
All safety apparel must MEET ANSI requirements.

They use the words "must" and "will" for direct requirements. Then they use "approved" which almost always means it's allowed for those who wish to do so, but not a requirement.

Also, for the vest they say "compliant" which shouldn't be the same as "certified." That language could vary based on language for ANSI's requirements. This should mean you CAN make your own safety vest as long as it truly meets the ANSI 2 outlines.

So, the way 62-1 is written, a USGI rifleman carrier over a $5 ANSI 2 or 3 vest DOES comply with CAP regulations. I'm looking at the original two vests posted by the OP and the USGI alternative is a LOT cheaper and adaptable, yet covers the same amount of the safety vest, or less.

[Eclipse]

What are you looking for?

[CavScout]

I also found this:

"For other activities that will not be in the vicinity of federal-aid roadways, all safety vests must have reflectivity applied to them. While safety vests do not have to meet the ANSI standard, again, reflectivity is required. For all apparel items other than safety vests, ANSI compliance must be met regardless of the activity."

"By October 1, 2012, all safety vests and apparel will be required to be ANSI compliant for all CAP activities."

http://capnhq.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/1367/~/requirement-to-wear-a-safety-vest-with-bdus

@Eclipse
The supposed letter demanding safety vests be worn as an outermost garment.

[Eclipse]

This isn't Twitter...

You are not properly quoting 62-1 as applicable, with the below published as regulation, no "letter" is required.
To wear them in any other way other then "outermost", you would need to show that approval.  These documents
are written as "only as indicated to the exclusion of all else".

See Page 10:
http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/R062_001_85D0CB3FE48A5.pdf

b. Safety vests are approved for wear over the outermost garment of AF-style uniform or
corporate uniform and must be ANSI compliant as defined in paragraph 7d below.
c. Safety apparel is approved for wear as the outermost garment over the corporate
uniform only and must meet ANSI Class 2 or 3 standards as noted on the ANSI classification tag
which must be affixed to the garment. Examples of safety apparel are coats, jackets, rainwear
and may include orange or lime green reflective pants in conjunction with upper-body wear.

d. ANSI and non-ANSI compliance standards are as follows:
(1) ANSI compliant – All Safety Vests or Safety Apparel worn by CAP members
must meet the American National Standards Institute, Inc (ANSI) Class 2 or Class 3
requirements. To ensure compliance with federal law, CAP members must comply with this
anytime duties exposed them to public vehicular traffic such as directing traffic, investigating
crashes, handling lane closures, obstructed roadways and disasters within the vehicle traffic
lanes.

(2) Non-ANSI compliant – Safety vests and safety apparel that does not meet ANSI
class 2 or 3 visibility and reflectivity standards are not authorized. CAP's policy on safety vests
and apparel required that all members, by October 1, 2012, meet ANSI Class 2 or 3 visibility and
reflectivity standards as stated in 7 (d) 1, above.

The above is clearly written and indicates that the ANSI standard is now required.

The duties which require an ANSI vest are also indicated on page 10, and includes pretty much anything
you'd do in a CAP uniform.

[CavScout]

Hey look, you posted the same thing I read, reread, and read again. It looks familiar.

As for the 'orange cloth' quote, that was the wrong quote, but I got the right one in there just before you replied.

I couldn't find " 'only as indicated to the exclusion of all else' " anywhere in CAPR62-1, nor the words "exclusion" or "indicated."

"Outermost" of the AF-style uniform (BDUs). I don't believe field gear is part of th BDU or corporate uniforms. With what you said, I would need to show approval to wear it over field gear instead of the BDU's, which is the only specified method authorized.

[Eclipse]

I couldn't find " 'only as indicated to the exclusion of all else' " anywhere in CAPR62-1, nor the words "exclusion" or "indicated."

You won't, as I said, that's how these regs are written, basically the opposite of civilian instructions where "that which is not excluded is allowed",
in most military regs and instructions, it's "only that which is explicitly indicated is allowed"

"Outermost" of the AF-style uniform (BDUs). I don't believe field gear is part of th BDU or corporate uniforms. With what you said, I would need to show approval to wear it over field gear instead of the BDU's, which is the only specified method authorized.

You may believe whatever you like, however regardless of what you are wearing, your ANSI vest or jacket must be over everything else.

[CavScout]

I guess I'd have to see the regulation stating that. "Show me the regulation." I prefer the safest route, being: "only that which is explicitly indicated is allowed." The regulation states rather plainly that the vest will be worn over your uniform's (BDU's and corporate) outermost garment. I believe wearing it over gear is more of a stretched interpretation, though there's a good intent behind it.

Without specific web gear that must be used, some members get the tactical vests and things that will greatly/completely cover the safety vest. I still believe they need to wear their vest over their gear in that case. But if someone wearing the Y suspenders and pistol belt over top of a proper safety vest gets called out, to me that is just someone else not wanting to stay in their own lane.

I'm glad I did this research though. I wasn't aware that vests have to be at ANSI 2 stardard or better, though we have them, and my unit still has some old ICS vests in the back room. Wouldn't want to use them by mistake!

[tribalelder]

Let's not have OSHA make a business call at our next mission.