I've noticed that many CAP vehicles have emergency lights on them... and many do not. Some have amber magnetics. Some full light bars. Some even have blue/red lights on them. Are there any CAP regs that preclude us from using emergency lights on corporate vehicles? What about POVs?
NYS law states that emergency vehicles can use the red light, volunteer firefighters are authorized blue lights, volunteer ambulance - green lights, and everyone may employ amber/white lights when needed. What makes an emergency vehicle? That isn't stated in a DMV document. Are we an emergency vehicle when responding to a SAR call?
What's the situation around the country?
CAPR 77-1 10.f
QuoteMarking of rescue vehicles must conform to federal, state, and local laws. The type of light bar used on vehicles must be approved in writing by the wing commander (region commander if a region vehicle) and must follow the narrowest guidelines established by the resident state and all surrounding states. The colors used on approved light bars will be amber or amber/white. The colors red and blue on light bars or the use of sirens are not authorized for use on any CAP vehicle.
I noticed this does not cover POVs...
My former Squadron Commander had a POV set up with a red/blue light bar, granted that was back in 1997.
Quote from: afgeo4 on May 29, 2007, 02:40:41 AM
I noticed this does not cover POVs...
POV's are POV's. You need to check with your local ordinance's about what you can carry.
However, I doubt you will be allowed red/blue. All Amber lights mean is caution.
Quote from: afgeo4 on May 29, 2007, 02:40:41 AM
I noticed this does not cover POVs...
Join a volunteer fire company.....then get your lights. Not sure if you want them, but don't get the lights for the POV, and use the reason it's for CAP SAR missions. Thats a huge NO-GO!
States are getting more and more picky about these red/blue emergency lights and I sure wouldn't put them on my personal vehicle unless their use on CAP missions was pretty clearly authorized in state law. It does appear that CAP regs are silent on the issue of POV lightbars since the quote I gave was from a section specific to corporate vehicles, but I'm sure the intent is that POVs follw state laws.
Captain, I believe NY state in general, and particularly NYC, is very strict about who is permitted red/blue emergency lights.
If it were me, I'd stick with an amber mag mount light. Just something to let you be seen better on back roads.
Does IOWA - with its close relationship with the Government and the Guard have any particular setup in this regard? -- Feel free to answer on the IOWA page.
GREEN lights on an ambulance? ??? ??? Uh.... > Blink < WHY?
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on May 29, 2007, 04:17:30 AM
Does IOWA - with its close relationship with the Government and the Guard have any particular setup in this regard? -- Feel free to answer on the IOWA page.
GREEN lights on an ambulance? ??? ??? Uh.... > Blink < WHY?
Good question, especially since green lights are generally used to mark incident command posts.
In Ca., you get nothing but yellow.
Ive written a lot of kids, even an adult or two, cites for steady burning reds. Someone got the wild idea that if you put a red lens on your fog lights in your grill....people get out of your way?! Nope...only I get to do that kiddo.......Sign here please. ;D
If you have red and blues on your POV, you asking to get yourself arrested in Ca. Let me rephrase that......your a bonehead if you have Code 3 (reds and blues) Equipment on your POV without authorization. Ca, is VERY strict on vehicle lighting equipment. About the only civilian agency vehicles that are allowed red lights and sirens are ambulances and armored cars. And for armored cars it is to serve as a robbery alarm.
I believe CAP falls under the exemption in Ca. VC 25259.1 Disaster Service Worker-Amber Warning Lights. There are some Govt Codes also. The yellows are to increase visibility at disaster sights, not to exempt anyone from the vehicle code. The yellow carries no authority with it. One can go blind reading the vehicle code. Once you think you have the answer, it says, "However, in the event of XXX.....refer to Section XXXX." Or in many cases, actually refers you to a totally different book.
In Ca. Security Guards are authorized white, yellow or green or any combination of the three. Any law enforcement or other emergency vehicle is actually ONLY required to have one forward facing steady burning red light and a siren. All of the other flashing stuff, strobes, 360 degree red and blues, etc. is just added by the individual agency.
But....theres always a but......VC 165(f) says the Commissioner of the Highway Patrol can pretty much deem any vehicle an Emergency vehicle.
VC165.5 defines "Rescue Teams" as surgeons, nurses and volunteers who have been trained in CPR and are and have been designated by the owner operator of the vehicle to attempt to resuscitate persons who are in immediate danger of loss of life....yada yada yada..
Ive heard CAP members cite that section before, but it isn't referring to CAP. When you read all the way to the bottom, it says you need to conform to standards established by a medical care committee, or area health planning committee. Basically, you need to be under an umbrella of a medical organization who conforms to state /county protocols for this to apply.
The Vehicle Code is like the Bible (just ask the CHP)....You cant just read the parts you like. :o
Tow trucks and private security guards (non-sworn) have red lights on their vehicles on the Golden Gate Bridge (assault rifles too)
I would recommend 4 point strobes (inside your turn signals) or tail/backup/brake rear flasher controllers for POV's. Amber lights on POV's must be covered on CA vehicles when not actually involved in incidents. Contractors with commercial vehicles and Private Patrol Operators are a few of the exceptions.
Wigwags, red lights, sirens, etc. will certainly result in the CHP cutting out your liver with a spoon. Of course, there was that guy with the exposed firearm and red lights on a SAR mission....I understand he had a PCS to the arctic squadron...
Capt Lord
Whoa now.....the Golden Gate Bridge is its own little world! ;D
Then to add to the mess, Utility and Construction Vehicles are allowed to have yellow lights in California.
We have them to make us easier to see so joe-can'tyouseeI'mtalkingonmycellphone-driver won't run into us.
BTW, I work for AT&T and I drive one of those trucks that just seem to jump out right in front said idiot drivers. ::)
Here in Michigan, regular tow trucks get the flashy red lights. For some reason, tow trucks get two red lights on a single bar yet Michigan State Police cars only get one big round red light.
When I was in a volunteer fire dept. in Florida, we were allowed a red light in/on POVs, but we couldn't do more than 9 mph over the speed limit, still had to stop at red lights and stop signs, and other vehicles were not required to move over for us.
Amber just makes more sense.
As far as Ca. there are many types of vehicles that are allowed yellow lights. Pages of them!
What I would much prefer, is a California License plate indicating that the POV is a Volunteer SAR vehicle, and showing clearly that we are USAF-AUX. Some states have these. ( Hey, there have to be more of us than there are Pearl Harbor Survivors, aren't there?)
This of course would require action at the Wing Level ( the Same Wing that took 3 years to get my Yaeger award printed....) It my not keep us from getting 417'd by the Air Police, but it might at least keep us form getting a ticket while driving HUA while trying to talk on a radio, read a map, GPS, and drink coffee at the same time ;)
Capt Lord
I can't find crap about it for PA or TN. Anyone have any idea?
I've once heard that SAR organizations can use red/amber combos, anyone heard that rumor?
Can anyone give me a sentient reason WHY C.A.P. has any , even remote reason to have emergency lights of any form on our vehicles, especially corporate vehicles?
The very idea has "Randy Rescue", "Ambulance Chaser" and "Street Squirrel" written all over it.
Hoser
Quote from: SJFedor on May 29, 2007, 07:02:44 PMI've once heard that SAR organizations can use red/amber combos, anyone heard that rumor?
It would totally depend on the state. It's something that is controlled on a state level, not federal. So that may be true somewhere.
However, even if your state said CAP could put sirens and red, yellow, blue, green, white and purple flashing lights on their vehicles, CAP would only allow white and yellow lights and no siren on COVs nonetheless.
Face it. 99 times out of 100 we're not first responders. There's training that goes with being the operator of an emergency vehicle, there is much added liability, and it's not worth it to get our members to the command post a few minutes faster.
Why the warning lights
are handy is for visibility while already on scene. A couple of times I wished we had a nice LED amber warning bar on our vans (allowed in NY) and maybe even a yellow arrow-stick on the back just to let other motorists know that we're there and to slow down while going by us where we were working. Look at it from a visibility standpoint, not from a "can I get to the scene quicker" standpoint. Who cares what color it is if it keeps your people safe.
White, Amber, both or none is pretty much your options for COVs.
Maine says no red or blue, period. Everything else is fine.
Quote from: Psicorp on May 29, 2007, 05:28:28 PM
Here in Michigan, regular tow trucks get the flashy red lights. For some reason, tow trucks get two red lights on a single bar yet Michigan State Police cars only get one big round red light.
When I was in a volunteer fire dept. in Florida, we were allowed a red light in/on POVs, but we couldn't do more than 9 mph over the speed limit, still had to stop at red lights and stop signs, and other vehicles were not required to move over for us.
Amber just makes more sense.
MSP has the bubblegum light because of tradition. They just never wanted to change it. I hear this is starting to change now with them getting the new Chargers though.
Technically in the state of Florida a volunteer FF can have a red light if approved in writing by his chief. BUT you still must obey all traffic laws to include speed limits. Granted most LEOs in our area here will let us slide with 5 or 10 mph over but get caught driving like a bat out of hell and your done.
All right ya hoser, let me explain the purpose of the amber lights: You can stop your car on the side of a road or highway, turn on your lights, and keep from being struck by cars. They also make it fairly easy to spot a vehicle from an aircraft. It is pretty much never legal for CAP to run warning lights of any kind while driving. CA requires SAR people to actually have their lights covered while not actually in use....That will really dissapoint the Ricky Rescues... Are you ground team rated? Doing RDF on public streets is a great way to be flattened like a camoflauge pancake....
Capt Lord
In Florida only ambulances, fire trucks and volunteer firemen can have red lights. LEA can have red and blue combined (Red is more visable in daylight) The old law used to say red lights were reserved for "emergency vehicles". Former Governer Hayden Burns signed an executive order authorizing CAP whenon a USAF authorized mission to be considered "emergency Vehicles". But that law was changed within the past few years.
Any vehicle running with yellow lights, as authorized by the National Board, in Florida has no right of way and the lights only indicate caution.
Every state is different, so the answer is "It depends..."
I was in the Engineering Dept. of a warning light manufacturer for six years, and we got handed every call to our Order Desk that went "What color light can I put on my ____ ?"
We told them to call their version of the DMV or State Police/Patrol.
No way could we keep up with 50 sets of state laws and administrative codes.
Quote from: Flying Pig on May 29, 2007, 03:21:03 PM
Whoa now.....the Golden Gate Bridge is its own little world! ;D
Smilin' Kach will shortly address a related issue. ;D
Quote from: Hoser on May 29, 2007, 07:42:10 PM
Can anyone give me a sentient reason WHY C.A.P. has any , even remote reason to have emergency lights of any form on our vehicles, especially corporate vehicles?
The very idea has "Randy Rescue", "Ambulance Chaser" and "Street Squirrel" written all over it.
Hoser
Not so much emergency lights to run with, but like everyone else has said, once you're on the side of a dark road in the middle of the night, on a curve, next to a cliff, it's nice to have something to get someone's attention a little more then the standard 4-ways do.
Although, the state troopers here in TN joke that their blue lights actually attract drunk drivers and other idiots.
Use of Emergency Warning lights....ie reds and siren, would be the exception more than the rule for an SAR organization. Only if a unit has a first due type of response would I even consider it, and thats non-CAP type SAR organizations. CAP really has no business being in the emergency resposne mode, we are just not set up for that type of call out (our 1 hour or greater from time of notification until units are enroute type of thing)
Clear and Amber are just fine for our look out dont hit me while I am on the side of the road or on the airport property type of operations....
Since as mentioned every state is differatn in its courtesy light laws, I wouldnt go there with CAP as your affiliation, especially since CAP doesnt even go there with its vehicles as emergency vehicles.
Fedor...in PA members of a fire department, ambulance squad or rescue squad are allowed to equip 1 POV with a combination of nor more than 2 blue lights. 1 light is supposed to be visable from 360 degress. A lightbar is considered 1 light. a pair of alteranting grill ights is also considered 1 light. Use of clear lights or use of sirens is not authorized. A chief, assistant chief or deputy chief of any of those three types of organizations may equip a POV with red and clear lights and may use a siren. Blue lights are a courtesy light and denote no authority to operate the vehicle outside of the prescribed motor vehicle code. (ie must obey all traffic laws) POV's with red lights are considered emergency vehicles. Either way a list of vehicles and authorized operators is supposed to be submitted to the State Police by the chief officer.
Quote from: SJFedor on May 29, 2007, 09:15:36 PM
Quote from: Hoser on May 29, 2007, 07:42:10 PM
Can anyone give me a sentient reason WHY C.A.P. has any , even remote reason to have emergency lights of any form on our vehicles, especially corporate vehicles?
The very idea has "Randy Rescue", "Ambulance Chaser" and "Street Squirrel" written all over it.
Hoser
Not so much emergency lights to run with, but like everyone else has said, once you're on the side of a dark road in the middle of the night, on a curve, next to a cliff, it's nice to have something to get someone's attention a little more then the standard 4-ways do.
Although, the state troopers here in TN joke that their blue lights actually attract drunk drivers and other idiots.
Its not a joke.They are correct. many law Enforcement officers have been killed on the side of the road by drunk drivers because they do see the blue lights and it draws the driver closer to it. So, you may NOT want to have flashing lights on your vehicle at night on the side of a road or highway.
Another reason to have lights is that every now and again we do take COVs on airport ramps -- its not common, but I think it is a good thing to have, as well as the side of the road, scene mgt scenarios already presented.
Iowa has a great lighting program. All new vehicles get equipped with a double rotting amber light bar, and 2 led amber panels. all are professionally mounted to the roof. the rotator is for road side safety, and the led panels point up for aircraft identification. they are low profile from the sides. This makes for quick recognition by air crew.
As far as red lights go. We have been approached by the state on this topic, but have declined. Thats just to much for right now.
Quote from: isuhawkeye on May 30, 2007, 01:08:47 AM
Iowa has a great lighting program. All new vehicles get equipped with a double rotting amber light bar, and 2 led amber panels. all are professionally mounted to the roof. the rotator is for road side safety, and the led panels point up for aircraft identification. they are low profile from the sides. This makes for quick recognition by air crew.
As far as red lights go. We have been approached by the state on this topic, but have declined. Thats just to much for right now.
It'd be nice, but CAP really doesn't have too much of a need to run "hot" anywhere, cuz if it's a crashed plane we're responding to, odds are, every other emergency agency within 30 miles is on the way too, just tuck in behind and follow the leader.
If one day it does come that we're allowed to have those lights, even if they do not denote any authority, I think our drivers should be educated heavily on it, as well as completing a modified EVOC course.
Quote from: Hoser on May 29, 2007, 07:42:10 PM
Can anyone give me a sentient reason WHY C.A.P. has any , even remote reason to have emergency lights of any form on our vehicles, especially corporate vehicles?
The very idea has "Randy Rescue", "Ambulance Chaser" and "Street Squirrel" written all over it.
Hoser
No, I doubt that they can since even a CAP vehicle on its way to a rendezvous point to begin a SAR sortie has no need to alert people to its presence or get them out of the way, which are the two reasons for having colored lights in the first place. Im EMS, people who install such toys on their vehicles are called "whackers."
In Iowa the State troopers often use their lights to travel to command posts, and operations bases in the case of emergencies. Iowa CAP has one of 2 search managers (in the entire state) recognised by the state troopers. Our goal is often to get that manager onto the scene in a short amount of time. Some times our aircraft, or the state partols aircraft are the quickest meens to get to the scene, but more often than not a properly equipped squad car is much much faster,a dn more efficient. In this case I could see those SAR "Experts" issued red light permits.
Generally when doing ramp checks or driving through a residential/commercial area at slow speed on a UDF mission we just use the POV's emergency flashers....I believe here in NJ we could also use an amber roof/dash light, solely for visibility purposes.....but we don't, even on COVs.
I have noticed that folks pay a lot closer attention to bright flashing strobes than they do to regular POV emergency flashers. I have a set on order to mount in my regular turn signal reflectors - one inch hole in the reflector, mount the light, run the wires, and it's Broadway on wheels. ;)
Why Yes
there or those of us who like to dress up like Napolean, prance around, look important, bling bling on the chest, 11 inch CAP stickers on the Ford Focus, Search and Rescue Sign on the chevey van, 10 antenna on the roof,
so why not a light bar, I want flares too!
Would it not be possible to designate your POV as your Flagship under your Nebraska Navy Admiralty and then use whatever and however many lights as you think necessary to alert others of your presence?? Actually, IIRC, all emergency vehicles and I believe this includes LEO are supposed to run sirens anytime they are running lights. Way too often this doesn't happen and I see a lot of LEO running with just lights and it is totally stupid. The siren makes one aware that something is happening and one can begin to look for the lights. I also see a lot of LEO speeding without lights or siren, which is just as illegal for them as it is for us. Flame suit on. Just don't forget you are addressing an Admiral when flaming..
Actually, if your speaking generally and not just about Nebraska, there are given situations in which LEOs or EMS use various combinations of lights and/or sirens depending on the nature of the call and sometimes use none at all but rather get to the scene as fast as they can, and its nothing like illegal. Its kinda dangerous to speak for all states and municipalities just because you may or may not know the laws in your state. For example, when an ambulance is running with a seizure patient on board, you go as fast as you safely can, occasionally using the horn to get folks attention, but L and S are not used because studies have shown that they can trigger another onset generalized seizure in a post-ictal patient.
Quote from: SARMedTech on May 30, 2007, 04:12:53 PM
...and not just about Nebraska...
Oye, we need to get you caught up.
http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=1843.msg29766#msg29766 (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=1843.msg29766#msg29766)
Iowa law states Lights or Sirens,
but if you get in an accident you clearly were not following due reguard, and as such are at fault.
capchiro,
Your right, there are many times we as law enforcement use our lights without our sirens. Often times its in responding to an incident where we really need to get there now, but full Code 3 may not be authorized by policy.
Many Departments have Code 2 which is lights only. Other times, it may because we are close enough to going on scene that we may want to keep it quiet, but still get people out of the way. As far as it being stupid? Having 10 years on the job Id have to disagree.
Often times, I do exceed the speed limit. Do you think its because Im just bored? I had a guy follow me to a call once to lay into me about driving to fast, actually I think its because I passed him on a double yellow. Little did he know he followed me to a pretty good domestic violence call. When some officers ran past him with their guns out, he decided to leave.
Quote from: stillamarine on May 29, 2007, 07:55:00 PM
Quote from: Psicorp on May 29, 2007, 05:28:28 PM
Here in Michigan, regular tow trucks get the flashy red lights. For some reason, tow trucks get two red lights on a single bar yet Michigan State Police cars only get one big round red light.
When I was in a volunteer fire dept. in Florida, we were allowed a red light in/on POVs, but we couldn't do more than 9 mph over the speed limit, still had to stop at red lights and stop signs, and other vehicles were not required to move over for us.
Amber just makes more sense.
MSP has the bubblegum light because of tradition. They just never wanted to change it. I hear this is starting to change now with them getting the new Chargers though.
Technically in the state of Florida a volunteer FF can have a red light if approved in writing by his chief. BUT you still must obey all traffic laws to include speed limits. Granted most LEOs in our area here will let us slide with 5 or 10 mph over but get caught driving like a bat out of hell and your done.
Actually, MSP still uses the Unity beacon because it's the only one to withstand their tests; which require the beacon to stay on the car at speeds up to 160 MPH. That beacon is bolted to an interior frame support that runs in an X pattern across the roof of the car (be it the current CVPI, or the older Caprice, Impala, or the old Plymouth Grand Fury). The reason the new Dodge Chargers don't have the beacon is because there is no support structure in the roof to bolt it to.
Granted, not an official site; but it does back up a lot of what Troopers I know have told me: http://www.geocities.com/my9c1page/msphistory (http://www.geocities.com/my9c1page/msphistory)
Oddly enough, the site mentions tradition as the reason for keeping the bubble, but I've seen the speed test cited other places. Including conversations with people at the MSP motor pool.
According to the MI Vehicle Code, tow trucks aren't supposed to have red lights, either. However, since most of the wreckers that are so equipped also work under contract with the PD (for impounds, accidents and such), it's mostly ignored.
Quote from: Flying Pig on May 31, 2007, 04:05:58 AM
I had a guy follow me to a call once to lay into me about driving to fast, actually I think its because I passed him on a double yellow. Little did he know he followed me to a pretty good domestic violence call. When some officers ran past him with their guns out, he decided to leave.
Doesn't seem like a smart move, to follow a police officer, regardless of the reason. I've noticed that police officers get pretty paranoid sometimes, and that seems like a quick way to get yourself in some trouble, possibly in line for a beat down. :)
Not to mention, you're the law enforcement official, not him. You're responsible for enforcing the law, for yourself and others, and knowing when the law may be stepped around for due cause, i.e. responding to a scene.
Personally, even if cops don't have their lights on, if it's more then a 2 lane road, I get myself out of the way, regardless of their rate of speed, and if it's a 2 lane road, I just watch my rear view and see if they seem like they want to get by me, if so, I find a nice driveway to pull into and let 'em go.
CAPR77-1, para 10. f.
"Marking of rescue vehicles must conform to federal, state, and local laws. The type of light bar used on vehicles must be approved in writing by the wing commander (region commander if a region vehicle) and must follow the narrowest guidelines established by the resident state and all surrounding states. The colors used on approved light bars will be amber or amber/white. The colors red and blue on light bars or the use of sirens are not authorized for use on any CAP vehicle."
NOTE- it says LIGHT BARS. It doesn't say something generic like 'rotating beacon, strobe light, other intermittently illuminated light, whether permanently or temporariliy affixed.' When the regulation is specific, it's meant specific; when written generically, it applies broadly. I got in this discussion over the appropriateness of the wing patch on rainwear (the word in the manual then) vs. the more specific rain coat.
Translation-
1) Light bars require Wing or Region CC approval, and are allowable ONLY in amber or amber/white.
2) CAPR 77-1 is silent on magnetics/temporary mounts except the broad statement 'Marking of rescue vehicles must conform to federal, state, and local laws.' Since your magnetic mount is removeable at the state border, comply with applicable codes.
TUV-
If your legitimately borrowed vehicle from another agency motor pool has noncompliant (for CAP) lights, choices are decline the vehicle or keep lights off.
POV-
Comply with vehicle code of state where operating. Will home state let you use amber in traffic - or only stopped at roadside ?
Most of the CAP vehicles I have seen in Ca have a single yellow stobe light.
i New York alest in the fulton area i seen people pull for Vol. firemen with blue lights
Quote from: lilred36781 on May 31, 2007, 03:03:27 PM
i New York alest in the fulton area i seen people pull for Vol. firemen with blue lights
It's a courtesy. While the blue lights for volunteer fire fighters in New York don't imply any power or authority, nor do they obligate other motorists to give way, courteous people do pull over and let them pass anyways. Some day that volunteer fire fighter may be responding to a call for your house, or your friends.
But in NY, there is no force of law behind blue, amber and green warning lights; you only need to yield to red.
Nothing like having a bunch of folks running code to a CAP mission without any training, certifications or checking with their insurance company.
CAP Member: Yes, I'd like to update my insurance becuase I'm in CAP and will be responding to emergencies in my POV (Ford Focus) where I spent $1500 on a full package of lights and sirens.
GEICO: Hahahahahahahahaaaa..... Seriously? Okay, just send us your agency's MOU with the local and state government and a copy of your EVOC certificate.
CAP Member: Ummmmm.... but I saw on CAPTalk that it's authorized....
I should send this whole thread to www.hamsexy.com .... they'd get a kick out of it :)
Quote from: isuhawkeye on May 31, 2007, 02:55:42 AM
Iowa law states Lights or Sirens,
but if you get in an accident you clearly were not following due reguard, and as such are at fault.
Actually, if you look at the statistics, more accidents are caused by people failing to yield to emergency vehicles. Just because you are involved in an accident doesnt mean that you were not following due regard and being involved in an MVA in an emergency vehicle certainly doesnt automatically indicate fault on the part of the person driving that emergency vehicle. You can maintain all the due regard you want, but that doesnt always prevent someone coming through an intersection when you have the right of way and t-boning you.
Quote from: SARMedTech on June 06, 2007, 08:58:32 PM
Quote from: isuhawkeye on May 31, 2007, 02:55:42 AM
Iowa law states Lights or Sirens,
but if you get in an accident you clearly were not following due reguard, and as such are at fault.
Actually, if you look at the statistics, more accidents are caused by people failing to yield to emergency vehicles. Just because you are involved in an accident doesnt mean that you were not following due regard and being involved in an MVA in an emergency vehicle certainly doesnt automatically indicate fault on the part of the person driving that emergency vehicle. You can maintain all the due regard you want, but that doesnt always prevent someone coming through an intersection when you have the right of way and t-boning you.
Especially when said person who t-boned you is a drunk driver and is attracted to your pretty blinky lights like a moth to a flame. ;D
In the 90-something SAR missions where I've chased ELTs over the years, I've only had to use my overhead amber light once. That was on the flight line at LAX one night. A single "kojak" light (magnetic base w/cig plug) is fine for me! I'd rather use the extra $$$ that a light bar would cost to buy commo gear.
I realize the last post in this thread was over a year ago, but considering it's here and already been discussed, I thought it better to post here than to make an entirely new topic about it.
I was over on a Police forum where I had posted a question I had about something I saw here earlier in the week (Border Patrol car runnin' code 3 on I-15, followed by two unmarked POV's, also running code 3). While on that forum, I recalled a discussion about CAP POV's having emergency lights, and lo and behold, I found it!
My question is for you New Jersey-ites. According to your DMV/MVC/etc, you've got a form that allows CAP members to apply for a permit to get a blue light on their POV. (Here: http://www.state.nj.us/mvc/pdf/About/BLC-54A.pdf)
My question here is with the type of lights that are allowed to be used. The form states:
"Emergency warning lights shall be removable or permanently attached of the flashing or revolving type, equipped with a blue lens and controlled by a switch installed inside the vehicle, or shall be blue of the light bar type."
"ALTERNATING FLASHING OR STROBE HEADLIGHTS ARE PROHIBITED AND SHALL NOT BE INCORPORATED INTO THE HOUSING OF ANY LIGHTING"
Now, to me, an "emergency light" is an emergency light. If I see a blue, red or combo of those, I'm movin' over. What I'm curious about is this: Why is it that you can have alternating or flashing, but not alternating flashing? What's the big deal with alternating flashing lights?
I'm no LEO or "whacker" (as used in the LEO community to aparrently denote one who loves the lights/sirens/etc), but that just doesn't make sense to me. They seem pretty much the same.
TRhe key words are: ALTERNATING FLASHING OR STROBE HEADLIGHTS. Headlights are white and are not light bars or temporary attached lights.
I'm guessing that headlight lights aren't allowed in NJ for anyone aside from law enforcement. Don't know why strobes aren't allowed in the headlight assembly. They seem to increase safety and are in common use here in NY.
Quote from: BillB on July 29, 2008, 10:24:36 AM
TRhe key words are: ALTERNATING FLASHING OR STROBE HEADLIGHTS. Headlights are white and are not light bars or temporary attached lights.
I understand the difference, but when I say "they're all the same to me", I mean that in the sense that I stated in my previous post. Flashing, alternating, alternating flashing, two colors, one color, in the dash, in the headlights, on the roof - I'd still pull over.
My question was - why do they say you can't have those? What's different about those? Do flashing headlights mean something specific in Jersey?
The original post asked if we are emergency vehicles, (in NY State) the answer is no... only Police, Fire Trucks and Ambulances. (some additional may have red lights, Fire Chief, for example)
Blue lights in NY may only be used by volunteer Firefighters,
Green Lights by members of volunteer ambulance corps.
As stated elsewhere Amber lights may be displayed, but I wouldn't mount one permanently on a POV. (there are permitted on utility co. vehicles, tow trucks, etc.)
NJ will allow a ground team leader a blue light permit, just gives you the "right of way" just like the volunteer fire and ems. Police fire and EMS not even allowed to speed or run red lights have an accident blowing through a red light and you can get a ticket, but have to get to the emergency, catch 22 huh
Quote from: NJMEDIC on July 29, 2008, 09:56:18 PM
NJ will allow a ground team leader a blue light permit, just gives you the "right of way" just like the volunteer fire and ems. Police fire and EMS not even allowed to speed or run red lights have an accident blowing through a red light and you can get a ticket, but have to get to the emergency, catch 22 huh
Police, Fire, and EMS can't drive over the limit or go through red lights? I find that kinda hard to believe.
We have statutes here in Texas that give police a very broad scope to the point where we are exempt from almost all traffic law with or without lights activated and are held only to a standard of due care. I'm not quite sure I could catch a speeder without exceeding the speed limit myself. And late at night red lights become pretty much non-existent when we get a call.
Unless I am mistaken he is referring to volunteers running blue lights.
Many states have laws on the books allowing volunteer emergency responders to run what are called "courtesy lights". Even though they are blue they come with no legal authority. they are simply a way to ask other motorists to yield the right of way.
Well, speaking as someone who made a few "Code 3" runs with Lights and Siren I can tell you that lights don't make people move, neither does a siren. But a good loud air horn works just about every time!
Why do you think fire trucks have air horns?
Quote from: PHall on July 30, 2008, 03:21:32 PM
Why do you think fire trucks have air horns?
Because they have air brakes?
What's the purpose of this discussion again?
IMO, CAP vehicles and CAP members don't need any lighting other than perhaps yellow lights to alert others of a stopped/parked CAP-owned vehicle during certain situations (UDF parked on the side of a road getting a bearing, on the active flightline, etc.)
All IMO, All CAP vehicles should come purchased with a good high-vis amber lightbar or amber arrowstick on the back for safety/visibility purposes. (It's a heck of a lot better of an investment in vehicle safety than a roof triangle, or changing our door decals for a fifth time). If there are states that prohibit it, CAP should just not send them to those states. Situation solved - everybody gets the same amber lightbar, no whackers, no opportunity for some people to trick out their vans with amber headlight flashers, grill lights, visor lights, etc., and safety is improved for everyone.
Quote from: Pylon on July 30, 2008, 04:00:56 PM
What's the purpose of this discussion again?
IMO, CAP vehicles and CAP members don't need any lighting other than perhaps yellow lights to alert others of a stopped/parked CAP-owned vehicle during certain situations (UDF parked on the side of a road getting a bearing, on the active flightline, etc.)
All IMO, All CAP vehicles should come purchased with a good high-vis amber lightbar or amber arrowstick on the back for safety/visibility purposes. (It's a heck of a lot better of an investment in vehicle safety than a roof triangle, or changing our door decals for a fifth time). If there are states that prohibit it, CAP should just not send them to those states. Situation solved - everybody gets the same amber lightbar, no whackers, no opportunity for some people to trick out their vans with amber headlight flashers, grill lights, visor lights, etc., and safety is improved for everyone.
Why does a 15 passenger van need a light bar? The van was brought to transport people.
Units that try to use a van as their "Rescue Ranger Assult Vehicle" and use them for ground team stuff are, IMHO, guilty of vehicle abuse and should have the vehicle taken away.
If a unit wants a "Ground Team" vehicle, then they should request one. Too bad the Air Force is only buying vans.
^ Hey really great solution. Request something that you can't get, but don't use what you have?!?!
Letting a vehicle sit that is capable of performing the mission because it is "too big" is abuse of a vehicle. Last I checked the Air force and more importantly CAP are not concerned with our vehicle being used to accomplish our mission. They are concerned with our vehicles not being used
So what would you consider to be a "ground team vehicle?" A pick-up truck with 2 seats? A Bronco with 4? Seems that a van would be perfect for transporting a TEAM of people where they need to go.
I think I'll go buy a 1992 ford escort wagon, that can seat 6 and has cargo room.
Quote from: Pylon on July 30, 2008, 04:00:56 PM
What's the purpose of this discussion again?
IMO, CAP vehicles and CAP members don't need any lighting other than perhaps yellow lights to alert others of a stopped/parked CAP-owned vehicle during certain situations (UDF parked on the side of a road getting a bearing, on the active flightline, etc.)
To ask a specific question regarding why a specific kind of light is required, and another (which is nearly the same) is prohibited. A simple question. Not to start a discussion of whether or not CAP should have them or not. We already do.
Quote from: jimmydeanno on July 30, 2008, 05:12:57 PM
So what would you consider to be a "ground team vehicle?" A pick-up truck with 2 seats? A Bronco with 4? Seems that a van would be perfect for transporting a TEAM of people where they need to go.
I think I'll go buy a 1992 ford escort wagon, that can seat 6 and has cargo room.
I recall seeing someone post on here a while back something regarding your average 12/15 passenger van with 4x4 capability. I can't find the link to the specific site or thread, but it was similar to this:
http://www.factory4x4vans.com/4x4_quigley_van_in_the_mud_off_road.htm
Quote from: jimmydeanno on July 30, 2008, 05:12:57 PMSo what would you consider to be a "ground team vehicle?"
(http://images.trucktrend.com/autoshows/events/163_news070227_02z+HUMMER_H2+as_Autobot_Ratchet.jpg)
All joking aside, the 4x4 van that PhoenixCadet linked to would be great, except I shudder to think what kind of gas mileage all that extra weight gives you.
Our vans work great for transporting SAR people to where they need to go. And if adding an AMBER lightbar and traffic advisor improves safety....well, gee, it wouldn't be the silliest thing we've ever done to promote safety now would it be?
"Rescue Ranger Assult Vehicle"? Feh.
^ That is AWESOME. What I wouldn't give to have a money tree right now
Quote from: N Harmon on July 30, 2008, 06:54:56 PM
Our vans work great for transporting SAR people to where they need to go. And if adding an AMBER lightbar and traffic advisor improves safety....well, gee, it wouldn't be the silliest thing we've ever done to promote safety now would it be?
"Rescue Ranger Assult Vehicle"? Feh.
That's my point. The van is a good 'multi-purpose' vehicle. I think it would be a bad idea for us to have "the van" just to transport cadets on activities, another vehicle designated only for transporting GTs and another for only transporting two people for things like CC call, etc.
The 4X4s become the Wing CCs vehicle and the pickups are used to haul around the disease infested "mission base trailers."
The van(s) work for our purpose and don't do too bad on some of the more remote locations. But how often do we need to go four-wheeling anyway?
But back to the light discussion - I don't think that it is appropriate for CAP vehicles to be equipped with the same lighting systems that law enforcement uses - people tend to think they're too special. The only reason we need lights is to act as a hazard warning - like snow plow trucks or the mail man.
We have a light bar on our van, we turn it on when we are on the side of the road DFing to alert the coming drivers that the van is there and there are people around it.
Why Jersey says that about their lights, couldn't tell you.
Quote from: isuhawkeye on July 30, 2008, 11:51:36 AM
Unless I am mistaken he is referring to volunteers running blue lights.
No, he said exactly: "Police fire and EMS not even allowed to speed or run red lights".
I couldn't see that being the case in any state.
Quote from: jaybird512 on July 30, 2008, 11:57:59 PM
Quote from: isuhawkeye on July 30, 2008, 11:51:36 AM
Unless I am mistaken he is referring to volunteers running blue lights.
No, he said exactly: "Police fire and EMS not even allowed to speed or run red lights".
I couldn't see that being the case in any state.
Actually it is. Ambulances must stop and make sure traffic is clear before proceeding.
Speed must be controlled.
Michael Montecalvo Case.
Driving hot (http://www.emsresponder.com/web/online/EMSRespondercom-Columns/Driving-Hot-/20$3404)
http://www.lmnc.org/media/document/1/emgncyvehicledriving.pdf (http://www.lmnc.org/media/document/1/emgncyvehicledriving.pdf)
An Instant to Decide, a Lifetime to Regret (http://publicsafety.com/article/article.jsp?id=1696&siteSection=22)
Quote from: flyerthom on July 31, 2008, 02:26:59 AM
Quote from: jaybird512 on July 30, 2008, 11:57:59 PM
Quote from: isuhawkeye on July 30, 2008, 11:51:36 AM
Unless I am mistaken he is referring to volunteers running blue lights.
No, he said exactly: "Police fire and EMS not even allowed to speed or run red lights".
I couldn't see that being the case in any state.
Actually it is. Ambulances must stop and make sure traffic is clear before proceeding.
Speed must be controlled.
Michael Montecalvo Case.
Driving hot (http://www.emsresponder.com/web/online/EMSRespondercom-Columns/Driving-Hot-/20$3404)
http://www.lmnc.org/media/document/1/emgncyvehicledriving.pdf (http://www.lmnc.org/media/document/1/emgncyvehicledriving.pdf)
An Instant to Decide, a Lifetime to Regret (http://publicsafety.com/article/article.jsp?id=1696&siteSection=22)
Nope, it's still not. They must come to a stop if necessary, then proceed through the red light and they can control their speed in excess of the posted limit when it's safe to do so. I'll explain...
None of the articles you provided state any form of traffic law regarding emergency vehicle operation. They are very good opinions and guidelines on how to drive and provide good examples of negligent driving, but nothing there states that ambulances cannot exceed the speed limit, nor do they say an ambulance cannot proceed through a red light when it is safe to do so. In fact in one part they were talking about 10MPH over the limit being reasonable for an ambulance.
Drivers of emergency vehicles (speaking from Texas law and I'm sure it's similar elsewhere) are exempt from normal traffic laws and are held to a standard called Due Care. You can run red lights, speed, turn where you need to, etc., but you can only do so when you're reasonably sure that you've been seen. Almost all standards of law are applied from the viewpoint of what a reasonable person would think is correct. So you do what you can to make things safe on your end, but if someone else disregards you and make themselves a victim, then that's not your fault. I tend to disagree with the article you had where the cell phone guy got himself plowed and the EMT was turned into the bad guy.
Police vehicles in Texas have even more exceptions where we are exempt from traffic law with or without lights and siren and the decision is left up to the operator. The premise being that it's sometimes safer to do what you have to do without red/blue lights on if they will create more of a hazard than not.
So when the op said that police/fire/EMS are not allowed to speed or run red lights, that is not the case.
/thread drift
I wish we spent as much time discussing if there is a need for CAP members to take training for the operation of large vehicles...like 12 or 15 passenger vans.
We do NOT use our vehicles as emergency vehicles....if we need anything it is only to show that we are moving slow or on a flight line.....maybe to help an aircrew at 2am determine which vehicle we are if they are trying to lead us. As it stands now there is no need to use anything other then amber or clear (see 77-1).
Some might believe we need to use our vehicles as emergency vehicles....this MIGHT be worth considering AFTER we consider things like EVOC. There are private organizations that do this for example ASPCA and the Salvation Army have red lights and sirens, but they also have training and policies ......those would need to come first.
The lack of any real vehicle safety program or training for the operator of our vehicles has be a long time concern of mine and I wish we would start training our drivers. There are courses offered by the NSC and other groups we would not have to invent the wheel.
Quote from: jaybird512 on July 31, 2008, 08:54:01 AM
Quote from: flyerthom on July 31, 2008, 02:26:59 AM
Quote from: jaybird512 on July 30, 2008, 11:57:59 PM
Quote from: isuhawkeye on July 30, 2008, 11:51:36 AM
Unless I am mistaken he is referring to volunteers running blue lights.
No, he said exactly: "Police fire and EMS not even allowed to speed or run red lights".
I couldn't see that being the case in any state.
Actually it is. Ambulances must stop and make sure traffic is clear before proceeding.
Speed must be controlled.
Michael Montecalvo Case.
Driving hot (http://www.emsresponder.com/web/online/EMSRespondercom-Columns/Driving-Hot-/20$3404)
http://www.lmnc.org/media/document/1/emgncyvehicledriving.pdf (http://www.lmnc.org/media/document/1/emgncyvehicledriving.pdf)
An Instant to Decide, a Lifetime to Regret (http://publicsafety.com/article/article.jsp?id=1696&siteSection=22)
Nope, it's still not. They must come to a stop if necessary, then proceed through the red light and they can control their speed in excess of the posted limit when it's safe to do so. I'll explain...
None of the articles you provided state any form of traffic law regarding emergency vehicle operation. They are very good opinions and guidelines on how to drive and provide good examples of negligent driving, but nothing there states that ambulances cannot exceed the speed limit, nor do they say an ambulance cannot proceed through a red light when it is safe to do so. In fact in one part they were talking about 10MPH over the limit being reasonable for an ambulance.
Drivers of emergency vehicles (speaking from Texas law and I'm sure it's similar elsewhere) are exempt from normal traffic laws and are held to a standard called Due Care. You can run red lights, speed, turn where you need to, etc., but you can only do so when you're reasonably sure that you've been seen. Almost all standards of law are applied from the viewpoint of what a reasonable person would think is correct. So you do what you can to make things safe on your end, but if someone else disregards you and make themselves a victim, then that's not your fault. I tend to disagree with the article you had where the cell phone guy got himself plowed and the EMT was turned into the bad guy.
Police vehicles in Texas have even more exceptions where we are exempt from traffic law with or without lights and siren and the decision is left up to the operator. The premise being that it's sometimes safer to do what you have to do without red/blue lights on if they will create more of a hazard than not.
So when the op said that police/fire/EMS are not allowed to speed or run red lights, that is not the case.
/thread drift
In both PA and NV where I've worked EMS, the vehicles are required a
full stop. They may proceeed afterward. Police vehicles are not held to that standard.
On reason is a major study by
Annals of Emergency Medicine showed that full code response saves an average of
43.5 seconds .
http://www.annemergmed.com/article/S0196-0644(95)70267-9/abstract (http://www.annemergmed.com/article/S0196-0644(95)70267-9/abstract)
To bring this back to topic, is 43.5 seconds really necessary in CAP responses? I doubt we need anything besides safety amber.
I know that in Arkansas, where I grew up, that EMS vehicles could not run red lights...and volunteer firemen could not run red lights. I know this because I was a member of a Rural VFD and we got the "don't speed, don't run red lights" safety briefing every week. Also there was a big fracas where an EMT driver who was responding to an automobile accident (he was the only unit with a "Jaws of life") got stopped for running a red light. The victim in the car died and the EMT driver drove his rig into the center of a busy intersection, turned on his lights, sirens, opened all the doors and walked away in protest.
For the sake of argument. I think it would be a good idea to have yellow flashing caution lights. This will at least help if you are on a slow ELT search or parked on the side of the road getting a LOB. But in no way shape or form should this be thought of a license to speed or run red lights.
Quote from: lordmonar on August 01, 2008, 01:32:06 AM
I know that in Arkansas, where I grew up, that EMS vehicles could not run red lights...and volunteer firemen could not run red lights. I know this because I was a member of a Rural VFD and we got the "don't speed, don't run red lights" safety briefing every week. Also there was a big fracas where an EMT driver who was responding to an automobile accident (he was the only unit with a "Jaws of life") got stopped for running a red light. The victim in the car died and the EMT driver drove his rig into the center of a busy intersection, turned on his lights, sirens, opened all the doors and walked away in protest.
This is something I've never understood... You're an EMT, who'se purpose is to save lives. Why would a government prohibit you from running red lights / speeding (if you have the necessary training, of course)? That just doesn't make sense to me... Kinda defeats the purpose.
Also the same, IMO, for VFD's. Especially if you're the sole fire protection unit in your area. You're purpose is to put out fires. You need to get there fast. Why the restrictions?
Because it is dangerous, and Rescuers DIE
http://www.firefighterclosecalls.com/ (http://www.firefighterclosecalls.com/)
Quote from: lordmonar on August 01, 2008, 01:32:06 AM
I know that in Arkansas, where I grew up, that EMS vehicles could not run red lights...and volunteer firemen could not run red lights. I know this because I was a member of a Rural VFD and we got the "don't speed, don't run red lights" safety briefing every week. Also there was a big fracas where an EMT driver who was responding to an automobile accident (he was the only unit with a "Jaws of life") got stopped for running a red light. The victim in the car died and the EMT driver drove his rig into the center of a busy intersection, turned on his lights, sirens, opened all the doors and walked away in protest.
For the sake of argument. I think it would be a good idea to have yellow flashing caution lights. This will at least help if you are on a slow ELT search or parked on the side of the road getting a LOB. But in no way shape or form should this be thought of a license to speed or run red lights.
Here is the current law here in Arkansas (former cop ;D)27-49-219. Vehicles.
(a) "Vehicle" means every device in, upon, or by which any person or property is or may be transported or drawn upon a highway, except devices moved by human power or used exclusively upon stationary rails or tracks.
(b) "Motor vehicles" means every vehicle which is self-propelled and every vehicle which is propelled by electric power obtained from overhead trolley wires but not operated upon rails.
(c) "Motorcycle" means every motor vehicle having a saddle for the use of the rider and designed to travel on not more than three (3) wheels in contact with the ground but excluding a tractor.
(d) (1) "Authorized emergency vehicle" means authorized emergency vehicles which shall include:
(A) Motor vehicles used by state, county, or city and municipal police agencies, all of which shall be equipped with:
(i) Blue; or
(ii) Blue, red, or white rotating or flashing emergency lights;
(B) Motor vehicles used by state, county, city, or municipal fire departments, motor vehicles owned and used by volunteer fire fighters while engaged in official duties, motor vehicles used by emergency medical technicians certified by the Department of Health or privately owned fire departments, and ambulances used solely for ambulance purposes which are approved as ambulances in accordance with state and federal highway safety standards, all of which shall be equipped with red rotating or flashing emergency lights. Flashing emergency lights shall be used by volunteer fire fighters solely while engaged in the performance of duties as volunteer fire fighters and by emergency medical technicians solely while engaged in the performance of duties with an ambulance service licensed by the department or an organized rescue squad or team;
(C) Motor vehicles owned by state, county, and municipal agencies whose use is determined by the state agency to be required for dangerous or hazardous services and motor vehicles owned by public service corporations or private individuals whose use is determined by the Commissioner of Motor Vehicles, in accordance with regulations established by the commissioner to prevent abuses thereof, to be for extra hazardous service, may be equipped with amber flashing or rotating emergency or warning lights which shall not qualify them as emergency vehicles, but which shall, during hazardous uses thereof, display their amber flashing or rotating emergency or warning lights in order that other motorists and the public may be aware of the special or hazardous use of the vehicles and shall exercise caution in approaching the vehicles at all times while the amber flashing or rotating emergency or warning lights are in operation. All hazardous service vehicles shall conform to regular traffic signals and speed limits during their operation; and
(D) (i) Motor vehicles utilized as wreckers or tow vehicles permitted or licensed under ยง 27-50-1203 may be equipped with amber flashing or rotating emergency or warning lights that shall not qualify them as emergency vehicles, but which shall, only during hazardous uses thereof, display their amber flashing or rotating emergency or warning lights in order that other motorists and the public may be aware of the special or hazardous use of the wreckers or tow vehicles and exercise caution in approaching the wreckers or tow vehicles at all times while the amber flashing or rotating emergency or warning lights are in operation. Unless otherwise directed by a law enforcement officer, a wrecker or tow vehicle shall conform to regular signals and speed limits during its operation. In addition to amber flashing or rotating emergency or warning lights, wreckers or tow vehicles that respond to highway emergencies may be equipped with red flashing or rotating emergency or warning lights.
(ii) Red flashing or rotating emergency or warning lights on a wrecker or tow vehicle shall be operated only while the wrecker or tow vehicle is stopped on or within ten feet (10') of a public way and engaged in recovery or loading and hooking up an abandoned, an unattended, a disabled, or a wrecked vehicle. A wrecker or tow vehicle shall not operate forward-facing red flashing or rotating emergency or warning lights while underway, except as may be expressly authorized or required by law otherwise.
(2) It shall be unlawful to install, operate, or use any rotating or flashing light on any motor vehicle except as authorized in this subsection.
Also, the Arkansas Wing of the Civil Air Patrol became a part of the Arkansas Military Department (along with the State Militia and the National Guard) by the passage of Act 883 of 1981. The Arkansas Military Department pays a Civil Air Patrol services coordinator who is a state employee and works at Wing Headquarters. In addition, the Arkansas Department of Emergency Management and the State Emergency Operations Plan lists CAP as the PRIMARY responder for all Air Search and Rescue and a secondary responder for all other emergencies in the state. We have CAP representatives assigned to the state EOC, so this statute applies as well12-75-113. Emergency response vehicles.
(a) Due to the time-critical nature of response to the scene of a disaster or major emergency occurrence, the Director of the Arkansas Department of Emergency Management is authorized to designate appropriate vehicles as requested in the staffing patterns of the state and local offices of emergency services and other state agency vehicles with an emergency service response requirement as emergency response vehicles.
(b) Designated state and local government emergency response vehicles under this chapter shall share the same privileges and immunities regarding traffic laws and ordinances as other emergency vehicles as defined by state law.
(c) Emergency vehicles authorized by this chapter shall be identified by a flashing light or rotating beacon which will be green in color.
(d) When responding to an emergency, the designated emergency vehicle shall have flashing lights or rotating beacon activated and must be equipped with and operating a siren device.
here are the statutes regarding right of way27-51-901. Operation of vehicles and streetcars on approach of authorized emergency vehicles.
(a) (1) Upon the immediate approach of an authorized emergency vehicle, when the driver is giving audible signal by siren, exhaust whistle, or bell, the driver of every other vehicle shall yield the right-of-way and shall immediately drive to a position parallel to, and as close as possible to, the right-hand edge or curb of the highway clear of any intersection and shall stop and remain in such position until the authorized emergency vehicle has passed, except when otherwise directed by a police officer.
(2) Upon conviction of violating subdivision (a)(1) of this section, a person is subject to a fine not to exceed four hundred dollars ($400).
(b) Upon the approach of an authorized emergency vehicle, as stated in subsection (a) of this section, the motorman of every streetcar shall immediately stop the car clear of any intersection and keep it in that position until the authorized emergency vehicle has passed, except when otherwise directed by a police officer.
(c) This section shall not operate to relieve the driver of an authorized emergency vehicle from the duty to drive with due regard for the safety of all persons using the highway.
27-51-310. Passing emergency response vehicle or law enforcement vehicle stopped on highway.
(a) (1) If an authorized emergency response vehicle or a law enforcement vehicle is parked or stopped at the scene of an emergency or other traffic stop and is displaying a flashing, revolving, or rotating blue, red, or amber and red light, an approaching motor vehicle operator shall move when possible into the farthest lane from the emergency response vehicle or law enforcement vehicle and remain in that lane until past the emergency response vehicle or law enforcement vehicle and any other vehicle involved in the stop.
(2) If changing lanes is not possible or is determined to be unsafe, an approaching motor vehicle operator shall reduce the motor vehicle's speed, proceed with caution, and maintain a reduced speed, appropriate to the road and the conditions, through the area where the authorized emergency response vehicle or law enforcement vehicle is stopped.
(b) (1) (A) Any party who pleads guilty or nolo contendere to or is found guilty of violating this section shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and shall be fined not less than thirty-five dollars ($35.00) nor more than five hundred dollars ($500), confined in the county jail not to exceed ninety (90) days, or both fined and imprisoned.
(B) In addition to the penalties prescribed in subdivision (b)(1)(A) of this section, the court may order community service for not more than seven (7) days and may suspend the person's driver's license for a period of not less than ninety (90) days nor more than six (6) months.
(2) There is created a rebuttable presumption that shall arise in any criminal action under this section to the effect that if it can be proven that a person is the registered owner of a vehicle that is driven in a manner that violates this section, the person is presumed to have been the driver of the vehicle at the time of the violation.
And the whole speed limit thing27-51-202. Restrictions not applicable to emergency vehicles.
(a) The prima facie speed limitations set forth in this subchapter shall not apply to authorized emergency vehicles when responding to emergency calls when the driver thereof is operating the vehicle's emergency lights and is also operating an audible signal by bell, siren, or exhaust whistle if other vehicles are present.
(b) This section shall not relieve the driver of an authorized emergency vehicle from the duty to drive with due regard for the safety of all persons using the street, nor shall it protect the driver of any emergency vehicle from the consequence of a reckless disregard of the safety of others.
(c) For purposes of this section, "emergency calls" means legitimate emergency situations which call for the operation of an emergency vehicle, including a police vehicle.
stopping for stop signs or red lights27-49-109. Drivers of authorized emergency vehicles.
(a) The driver of any authorized emergency vehicle when responding to an emergency call upon approaching a red or stop signal or any stop sign shall slow down as necessary for safety but may proceed cautiously past the red or stop sign or signal. At other times, drivers of authorized emergency vehicles shall stop in obedience to a stop sign or signal.
(b) No driver of any authorized emergency vehicle shall assume any special privilege under this act except when the vehicle is operated in response to an emergency call or in the immediate pursuit of an actual or suspected violator of the law.
It is interesting to note however that all CAP owned vehicles are only equiped with amber lights, POV's are a different story, sorry for the long post but it is good information to have :)
Quote from: PhoenixCadet on August 01, 2008, 03:01:29 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on August 01, 2008, 01:32:06 AM
I know that in Arkansas, where I grew up, that EMS vehicles could not run red lights...and volunteer firemen could not run red lights. I know this because I was a member of a Rural VFD and we got the "don't speed, don't run red lights" safety briefing every week. Also there was a big fracas where an EMT driver who was responding to an automobile accident (he was the only unit with a "Jaws of life") got stopped for running a red light. The victim in the car died and the EMT driver drove his rig into the center of a busy intersection, turned on his lights, sirens, opened all the doors and walked away in protest.
This is something I've never understood... You're an EMT, who'se purpose is to save lives. Why would a government prohibit you from running red lights / speeding (if you have the necessary training, of course)? That just doesn't make sense to me... Kinda defeats the purpose.
Also the same, IMO, for VFD's. Especially if you're the sole fire protection unit in your area. You're purpose is to put out fires. You need to get there fast. Why the restrictions?
The time you save does not out weigh the danger to you and to by standers. Heck...even today a lot of police departments do not do "high speed" pursuits anymore because of the danger to by standers (and the lawsuits they generate).
CAP235629....they changed the law since last I was living in Ark. (1987).
To everyone else.....please note...that although CAP vehicles in ARK can run red lights and speed.....note that little line about it does not relieve the driver from due regard to safety. What that means is that if you get in an accident.....we will be sued and we will probably lose.
Quote from: PhoenixCadet on August 01, 2008, 03:01:29 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on August 01, 2008, 01:32:06 AM
I know that in Arkansas, where I grew up, that EMS vehicles could not run red lights...and volunteer firemen could not run red lights. I know this because I was a member of a Rural VFD and we got the "don't speed, don't run red lights" safety briefing every week. Also there was a big fracas where an EMT driver who was responding to an automobile accident (he was the only unit with a "Jaws of life") got stopped for running a red light. The victim in the car died and the EMT driver drove his rig into the center of a busy intersection, turned on his lights, sirens, opened all the doors and walked away in protest.
This is something I've never understood... You're an EMT, who'se purpose is to save lives. Why would a government prohibit you from running red lights / speeding (if you have the necessary training, of course)? That just doesn't make sense to me... Kinda defeats the purpose.
Also the same, IMO, for VFD's. Especially if you're the sole fire protection unit in your area. You're purpose is to put out fires. You need to get there fast. Why the restrictions?
The reasons are in the links I posted from Michael Montecalvo and
Annals of Emergency Medicine . People shouldn't be placed at risk for 43.5 seconds. It's to easy to mess up and take - or lose - a life. That defeats the whole purpose.
Quote from: lordmonar on August 01, 2008, 03:49:00 AM
CAP235629....they changed the law since last I was living in Ark. (1987).
To everyone else.....please note...that although CAP vehicles in ARK can run red lights and speed.....note that little line about it does not relieve the driver from due regard to safety. What that means is that if you get in an accident.....we will be sued and we will probably lose.
Concur completely.
I was just clarifying.........
I personally only have an amber magnetic mount minibar...........
OBTW, this isn't always a safe thing on the side of a road, 12 years as a cop taught me that drunks seem to aim for flashing lights
There is no reason nor is there a need for CAP vehicles to have any lights whatsover.
Other than the "Cool factor", can you cite one good reason to have them. Will getting to your ELT search 40 seconds quicker actually make a difference? Most likely not. Don't forget by the time members assemble for a mission, the mission has already been going on for some time. CAP is not a first responder service, nor will it ever be.
If you want lights join a Fire or Police service.
As brought up earlier, can you imagine the repercussions if CAP members had red or blue lights and ran a stoplight and killed someone. I believe NHQ should publish a change to remove any and all lights from all CAP vehicles now anyway.
Quote from: lordmonar on August 01, 2008, 03:38:18 AM
Quote from: PhoenixCadet on August 01, 2008, 03:01:29 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on August 01, 2008, 01:32:06 AM
I know that in Arkansas, where I grew up, that EMS vehicles could not run red lights...and volunteer firemen could not run red lights. I know this because I was a member of a Rural VFD and we got the "don't speed, don't run red lights" safety briefing every week. Also there was a big fracas where an EMT driver who was responding to an automobile accident (he was the only unit with a "Jaws of life") got stopped for running a red light. The victim in the car died and the EMT driver drove his rig into the center of a busy intersection, turned on his lights, sirens, opened all the doors and walked away in protest.
This is something I've never understood... You're an EMT, who'se purpose is to save lives. Why would a government prohibit you from running red lights / speeding (if you have the necessary training, of course)? That just doesn't make sense to me... Kinda defeats the purpose.
Also the same, IMO, for VFD's. Especially if you're the sole fire protection unit in your area. You're purpose is to put out fires. You need to get there fast. Why the restrictions?
The time you save does not out weigh the danger to you and to by standers. Heck...even today a lot of police departments do not do "high speed" pursuits anymore because of the danger to by standers (and the lawsuits they generate).
We do! Most of our pursuits are high speed, it just depends on other factors involved. We factor in traffic, time of day, reason for the pursuit, etc. Just being fast doesn't get ours terminated.
Lawsuits aren't a huge factor anymore (thank goodness) because no matter what you do and as safely as you do it, you're going to get sued no matter what. We put more emphasis on pretty much the danger to the public vs. the need to get the violator stopped.
I miss the old days when the Texas DPS would hang out the window with a shotgun and shoot at tires... :D
Quote from: mikeylikey on August 01, 2008, 05:09:19 AM
There is no reason nor is there a need for CAP vehicles to have any lights whatsover.
I have a single mag mount rotating yellow light for my 'Burb. I use it mostly when I am on airports doing ramp checks, and am required to have it to cross any active runway. I also use it at night when I'm out of my vehicle doing DF bearings on ELT signals.
This function has been pointed out before, at least twice, in this discussion.
Quote from: SarDragon on August 01, 2008, 05:56:39 AM
Quote from: mikeylikey on August 01, 2008, 05:09:19 AM
There is no reason nor is there a need for CAP vehicles to have any lights whatsover.
I have a single mag mount rotating yellow light for my 'Burb. I use it mostly when I am on airports doing ramp checks, and am required to have it to cross any active runway. I also use it at night when I'm out of my vehicle doing DF bearings on ELT signals.
This function has been pointed out before, at least twice, in this discussion.
Exactly...that's all that's needed. You don't need to be seen from space with more amber lights than a construction zone.
Quote from: BigMojo on August 01, 2008, 12:53:28 PM
Quote from: SarDragon on August 01, 2008, 05:56:39 AM
Quote from: mikeylikey on August 01, 2008, 05:09:19 AM
There is no reason nor is there a need for CAP vehicles to have any lights whatsover.
I have a single mag mount rotating yellow light for my 'Burb. I use it mostly when I am on airports doing ramp checks, and am required to have it to cross any active runway. I also use it at night when I'm out of my vehicle doing DF bearings on ELT signals.
This function has been pointed out before, at least twice, in this discussion.
Exactly...that's all that's needed. You don't need to be seen from space with more amber lights than a construction zone.
What we need now is Tedda's Swivel Chair Patrol cartoon ...
Quote from: lordmonar on August 01, 2008, 03:49:00 AM
CAP235629....they changed the law since last I was living in Ark. (1987).
To everyone else.....please note...that although CAP vehicles in ARK can run red lights and speed.....note that little line about it does not relieve the driver from due regard to safety. What that means is that if you get in an accident.....we will be sued and we will probably lose.
I didn't see anything in the statutes quoted that backed that up UNLESS the member from Arkansas is aware of anything in writing from the emergency mgt department designating CAP vehicles as emergency response vehicles. That would certainly be something.
Quote from: mikeylikey on August 01, 2008, 05:09:19 AM
There is no reason nor is there a need for CAP vehicles to have any lights whatsover.
Other than the "Cool factor", can you cite one good reason to have them. Will getting to your ELT search 40 seconds quicker actually make a difference? Most likely not. Don't forget by the time members assemble for a mission, the mission has already been going on for some time. CAP is not a first responder service, nor will it ever be.
If you want lights join a Fire or Police service.
As brought up earlier, can you imagine the repercussions if CAP members had red or blue lights and ran a stoplight and killed someone. I believe NHQ should publish a change to remove any and all lights from all CAP vehicles now anyway.
I also see no reason for red lights , etc.....amber I think you can make a case for or against.
BUT as for not being a first responder agency , in most DR cases you are right and in some SAR cases, however in some states we are the 1st on the scene for missing planes and such. We run the search, find the target , and are first on scene...long before police, fire, EMS or coroner.
Quote from: RiverAux on August 01, 2008, 07:40:34 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on August 01, 2008, 03:49:00 AM
CAP235629....they changed the law since last I was living in Ark. (1987).
To everyone else.....please note...that although CAP vehicles in ARK can run red lights and speed.....note that little line about it does not relieve the driver from due regard to safety. What that means is that if you get in an accident.....we will be sued and we will probably lose.
I didn't see anything in the statutes quoted that backed that up UNLESS the member from Arkansas is aware of anything in writing from the emergency mgt department designating CAP vehicles as emergency response vehicles. That would certainly be something.
Quote(c) This section shall not operate to relieve the driver of an authorized emergency vehicle from the duty to drive with due regard for the safety of all persons using the highway.
and
Quote(b) This section shall not relieve the driver of an authorized emergency vehicle from the duty to drive with due regard for the safety of all persons using the street, nor shall it protect the driver of any emergency vehicle from the consequence of a reckless disregard of the safety of others.
and
Quote(b) No driver of any authorized emergency vehicle shall assume any special privilege under this act except when the vehicle is operated in response to an emergency call or in the immediate pursuit of an actual or suspected violator of the law.
From the right of way, speed limit and red light laws. My read on these is that IF a CAP vehicle were in violation of the normal speed limit, right of way or light signal laws and involved in an accident....any good lawyer could easily win a law suit by using the statistics already posted on this thread.
The "golden hour" that the EMTs used to live by (do they still teach that?) would not come into play because CAP is usually not even call in for 1-2 hours...even if its a 406 ELT we are looking at 30 minutes before the call goes out to the Ground team. Add another 30 minutes just to assemble the team....you have lost your golden hour right there. Back that up with the statstic that full code respoins only saves less than one minute in average response time. It would take about 30 seconds to show that any violation of the law by a CAP ground team is almost automatically a reckless disregard to "the safety of all persons using the highways".
So...back to my orginal statment. Yellow rotating beacon....I can see. Any beacons mandated by state or local laws I can see. Red/blue/white with sirens and full code response....I just can justify from a safety or liabilty stand point.
QuoteFrom the right of way, speed limit and red light laws.
Only if the CAP vehicle actually is considered an emergency vehicle. Nothing that was presented confirms that it would be under any of those laws.
What difference does it make if Arkansas says CAP can run with red lights? CAP Regulations say NO red lights or sirens. Only yellow lights are authorized. So the CAP Regulation trumps any state laws authorizing blue or red lights on corporate vehicles of POV used for CAP.
Or is this another case of the state law allows it, so we can ignore the CAP reg???
Quote from: RiverAux on August 01, 2008, 11:20:49 PM
QuoteFrom the right of way, speed limit and red light laws.
Only if the CAP vehicle actually is considered an emergency vehicle. Nothing that was presented confirms that it would be under any of those laws.
Well even more to the point. If the vehicle is not an "emergency vehicle" then it must follow all the rules of the road.....which is my main point....even if we are allowed to go full code response we should not for safety and liability issues.
QuoteWhat difference does it make if Arkansas says CAP can run with red lights?
It makes a difference if some people get the impression that they can do that and other things under state law, when in fact they can't. Just playing fact checker.
MAKE IT STOP!
PLEASE....................
Quote from: RiverAux on August 02, 2008, 01:28:04 AM
QuoteWhat difference does it make if Arkansas says CAP can run with red lights?
It makes a difference if some people get the impression that they can do that and other things under state law, when in fact they can't. Just playing fact checker.
Please look at my posting carefully. I never said CAP vehicles had red lights and sirens. ALL CAP vehicles in Arkansas have AMBER lights for safety per regs.
I was just clarifying the law after a statement was made about the laws in arkansas.
There are SOME members in Arkansas who DO in fact have emergency equipment on their POV's.
I AM NOT ONE OF THEM!
I clearly stated that I have an AMBER light for all the reasons stated.
The old cop in me just couldn't let misinformation stand, and I am now sorry I said anything......
PLEASE LOCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ACtually, I was responding to lordmonar's comment on your posting of Arkansas laws where he said that AR CAP members could do all those things.
Somebody call an ambulance, I think this thread just died.