Advice Needed: Procedures and Tips for Flying a DV?

[ProdigalJim]

Once more, I turn to my CAPTalk buddies for advice:

We're getting ready to host a legislative member on a visit, along with his aide. A few questions have popped up, and despite careful reading of 20-3, 39-2 and 60-1, I'm stumped.

1. Because our DV is a Legislative Member, he's authorized to fly in CAP aircraft. The manuals and regs are silent, however, on whether he needs to be in uniform. What say all of you?

2. The aide, as he is not a member, needs to complete a Form 9 for release. But the Form 9 doesn't seem to have any real disposition, other than leaving one behind as a record in case we make a smoking hole. Does it go anywhere else?

3. The aide, as a non-member, has to be cleared to ride as a pax, all the way up to NHQ. But, apart from simply stating this, 60-1 offers no guidance on how, step by step, this is accomplished. There's no form for it, that I can see. Do I simply draft an email request with the particulars, send it to my CC, and copy the subsequent command layers? How do I "walk" this thing through the way it's supposed to go? The event is 18 Dec, and NHQ wants a week's notice, so I have time...but my time cushion will deflate if it sits in someone's box without action.

[Eclipse]

2. The aide, as he is not a member, needs to complete a Form 9 for release. But the Form 9 doesn't seem to have any real disposition, other than leaving one behind as a record in case we make a smoking hole. Does it go anywhere else?

The Form 9 should be included with the rest of the sortie paperwork in WMIRS, and wherever hard copy flight records are kept (if they are kept).  Its an inspection item for a CI.

3. The aide, as a non-member, has to be cleared to ride as a pax, all the way up to NHQ. But, apart from simply stating this, 60-1 offers no guidance on how, step by step, this is accomplished. There's no form for it, that I can see. Do I simply draft an email request with the particulars, send it to my CC, and copy the subsequent command layers? How do I "walk" this thing through the way it's supposed to go? The event is 18 Dec, and NHQ wants a week's notice, so I have time...but my time cushion will deflate if it sits in someone's box without action.

60-1, Page 7 indicates that requests for non-CAP pax must go to NHQ/DO through the CAP-NOC. From a practical perspective you or the pilot, could make that request directly - call them and ask for the request format, which is likely to just be an email with pertinent information.  However your Wing DO, as well as the Wing CC should be aware, and approve this activity, so I'd advise you to get on the phone ASAP and ask them how they want you to handle it, bearing in mind you have only 2 weeks to make this happen.

You can also ask the NOC at that time about the uniform, my guess would be it's not required.

[BlueLakes1]

Jim, an interesting set of circumstances - and one that I've personally addressed.

The aide, once approved by the NOC, will require the Form 9 ect, as Eclipse mentioned.

The legislator is another story. We looked at the possibility of flying interested legislators here in Indiana a couple years ago, and the answer we got was that the regulations do not grant relief from the uniform requirement - or the requirement to be safety current, or meet the other requirements expected of regular CAP members. Now I'd double check that - either put a question in to the Knowledgebase, or email NHQ/DO to see if there's been a change via ICL that I've not seen (or something to that effect), but in the recent past a Legislative Member would still be required to be uniformed and otherwise eligible to participate, meaning Level I complete and safety current.

If your plan is to fly them soon, I'd skip the forums and go VFR direct to the NOC/NHQ. If you happen to get a different answer, please let me know - we may try to fly them again, too.

[Eclipse]

+! on skipping the forums, though I'd like to know the ultimate answer.

If the above holds true, it might be better to just fly them both as an F9 and move on.  I doubt either would know the difference, anyway.

[Pylon]

Seems silly that if a member of congress is not a member, it's a simple form and a nod from above to fly him or her.  But if we've essentially given them a nearly "honorary" (in most cases) special class of membership --something that ostensibly makes them even more connected to the organization-- all of a sudden it becomes near impossible to fly them.  The non-member is totally cool to ride along without Level I, a stupid safety PPT and quiz, and wearing a flight suit or something -- so why would we require people who are essentially honorary members to do that?   It's not like the legislative member is going to be doing anything operational in the aircraft: he or she is literally just there for a ride-along.

[ProdigalJim]

If your plan is to fly them soon, I'd skip the forums and go VFR direct to the NOC/NHQ. If you happen to get a different answer, please let me know - we may try to fly them again, too.

An excellent idea...and I will definitely post what I learn.

Thank you, sir!

[RiverAux]

Always assumed Congressional members didn't wear uniforms unless they actually wanted to get active and fly as part of an actual crew. 

One work-around --- Fly the Congressional member as a "civilian".  Just put in form 9 requests for both of them.  I'd probably consider doing that anyway just as part of notifying the chain that a VIP was involved.

Interesting, Aerospace Education Members are specifically prohibited from wearing uniforms.  Congressional Member section is silent on the issue though it does authorize them to fly in CAP aircraft. 

[Woodsy]

Also, check with your wing ops people to see if there are any wing directives about DV flying.

For example, FLWG has a list of specific people that are allowed to fly DV's.  These are long time, very experienced check pilots.  Also, these people must fall within height/weight standards and wear a green flight suit during the flight.  No one other than members on this list may fly a DV. 

[Майор Хаткевич]

That seems idiotic...

[Garibaldi]

That seems idiotic...

Well...FLWG DID have something to do with smurf suits back in the day...

[BlueLakes1]

Always assumed Congressional members didn't wear uniforms unless they actually wanted to get active and fly as part of an actual crew. 

One work-around --- Fly the Congressional member as a "civilian".  Just put in form 9 requests for both of them.  I'd probably consider doing that anyway just as part of notifying the chain that a VIP was involved.

Interesting, Aerospace Education Members are specifically prohibited from wearing uniforms.  Congressional Member section is silent on the issue though it does authorize them to fly in CAP aircraft.

Just for semantics, remember that Congressional Member and State Legislative Member are two different membership categories.

I don't think that I'd try to circumvent the reg by simply claiming that the legislator was simply not a member. I'm not encouraging this, but I'd have them contact NHQ and resign before I simply lied about membership status.

That being said, this is probably a really good issue to address going forward. I know it put a dent in our plans.

[Woodsy]

That seems idiotic...

I wouldn't say having that appear professional and are highly experienced is idiotic...

[a2capt]

With a new 60-1 release of 12-December, they shed some more light on this very topic:

This letter (below) is referenced on now, Page 8 of the current CAPR 60-1, in addition to the text stating that it has to go through the NOC, and here's what's required at a minimum and exactly who to direct questions to.

MEMORANDUM FOR RECORD
SUBJECT: Required Information for Non-CAP Passenger Requests
1. According to CAP-USAFI 10-2701, paragraph 3.5.2.7., non-CAP passengers will only be approved
when their presence is "essential to the mission." Furthermore, it is a Liaison Region responsibility to
weigh the risk of assuming federal liability against the benefits gained in making a determination to
submit the request.
2. As a minimum, the follow information is required to be submitted at the time of request:
a. Name, rank, and the agency the individual is associated with
b. Mission symbol and flight profile
c. Name of requesting agency
d. Justification/purpose for the non-CAP passenger on the mission
e. WMIRS mission number
f. Number of sorties requested
3. CAP wings should enter all required information into WMIRS as an attachment in the Mission Files
of the respective mission. CAP wings will notify the CAP Liaison Region of the request. The Liaison
Region will review the request prior to final submission to HQ CAP-USAF/XO. Per CAPR 60-1,
paragraph 2-3a, all non-CAP passenger requests require 5 working days notice for passenger
approvals on training missions. Requests inside that timeframe may not be approved.
4. Please address any questions concerning flight authorization to the CAP-USAF/XO at DSN 493-7467
or commercial (334) 953-7467.

[UH60guy]

Somewhat off topic, but a big word of caution about flying VIPs. Be extremely clear in your pre-flight brief about when and who he can talk to. I mean it. Really. Especially if the aide or other PAX intend to do any work while in flight.

Unless he has a separate intercom system, it can get dangerous.

I was flying lead UH-60 in a flight of two in Afghanistan, and had a general and news reporter in the back. They ignored the pre-flight brief and decided to save time by conducting an interview the whole way. I could not shut them off the intercom and consequently could not hear any radio transmissions. We had to handle it by broadcasting to the other helicopter to have them take lead and all radio duties, and just had to follow based on motion cues.

Since CAP prohibits formation flying, you'll be on your own and can't rely on someone else to make those radio calls. If the legislator isn't in the front seat or within "shushing" or "smacking" distance, be wary of flying near any controlled airspace, and be aware you may not reliably be able to hear incoming radio calls if he and his aide "get down to business" in the back and chat it up.

[ProdigalJim]

I was glad to see the 60-1 revision come out, it was definitely helpful...but might have been more helpful a month ago when I was doing the planning for the visit!

On the intercom thing, that's an excellent point and one I hadn't thought of. In the GA-8 we can isolate the back-seat intercom pretty readily, but if you've done a bad job with the radio panel buttonology you could still garf it up and create a safety issue.

As for the visit itself, slated for yesterday? Canceled, at the last minute. That's often the way it is with these VIP events, but I'm still a little bummed. A lot of people, at a lot of levels (VAWG, NHQ, Grp 3 and our own squadron) worked very hard to pull together a solid program. I'm proud of their efforts and grateful.

Does anyone remember the episode of M*A*S*H where the 4077th is supposedly going to get a visit from MacArthur? Everyone rehearses and prepares for days, Klinger dresses up like the Statue of Liberty on the camp road, and all that happens is MacArthur speeds through the unit in a jeep...