Does position trump grade?

[captrncap]

Just wondering what is everyone's opinion on Squadron (Group) Commanders and grade.

Since grade and position are not dependent on each other,  does SQ/GRP CC out rank everyone else by virtual of the office that they hold or does that only apply locally to the members within that SQ/GQ's span of control? What is the custom and courtesies for this?

For instance, a SQ CC is a 1st Lt with a Lt Col in the Squadron – Who out ranks who? When does that apply? always? only at squadron meetings? at GRP/WG events? etc.. Who salutes who?

[DeputyDog]

Just wondering what is everyone's opinion on Squadron (Group) Commanders and grade.

Since grade and position are not dependent on each other,  does SQ/GRP CC out rank everyone else by virtual of the office that they hold or does that only apply locally to the members within that SQ/GQ's span of control? What is the custom and courtesies for this?

Only in instances where it relates to their squadron or group. As for saluting, when a member reports to the front of a unit formation for an award or a promotion, then the member reporting salutes first (even it is a major reporting to a first lieutenant...they are saluting the position). If just walking outside, then the first lieutenant squadron commander would salute the lieutenant colonel squadron member first.

For example, I am a group deputy commander and a major. When the group commander is out of town, then I am the acting group commander. There happens to be a second lieutenant who is ground branch director qualified in one of the squadrons in my group. If a mission occurs while I am the acting group commander, and I sign in to the mission and get assigned as a ground team leader, then there would be a good chance that I would be under that second lieutenant's command for the mission (he jokes that will happen someday...I hope that when it does, that cadets see it...it would mess with their heads!).

For instance, a SQ CC is a 1st Lt with a Lt Col in the Squadron – Who out ranks who? When does that apply? always? only at squadron meetings? at GRP/WG events? etc.. Who salutes who?

The first lieutenant would "out rank" the lieutenant colonel in anything related to the squadron's affairs. Now if the same first lieutenant and lieutenant colonel were at an encampment as a "tac officer" and a "senior tac officer" respectively, then the lieutenant colonel would "out rank" the first lieutenant in anything related to the encampment.

If at the encampment they were discussing squadron affairs, then the lieutenant colonel could not "order" the first lieutenant to do anything with the squadron.

[dwb]

Don't get too wrapped up about grade.  One of the confusing things about CAP is that people can have multiple duty assignments in very different contexts.

I'm in a squadron.  My squadron commander's direction trumps all.  I'm also running a TLC course.  If my squadron commander served as an instructor, then my word would trump his for TLC issues. I'm also on the encampment command staff this year.  I outrank the deputy encampment commander, but if the encampment CC isn't around and a decision needs to be made, I can't "pull rank" on the deputy.

Instead of focusing on grade/rank, focus on organizational structure and context.  It will make life a lot easier on you.

[MIKE]

This is just one of the things that has been broken by CAP. JMHO.

[mikeylikey]

In the previous versions of the cadet leadership book series, it spent a whole page on the rank/grade subject.  It had a cool little cartoon also!  Too bad AFIADL 13 sucks so much!  It needs to be re-written to address issues such as this. 

[MIKE]

In the previous versions of the cadet leadership book series, it spent a whole page on the rank/grade subject.  It had a cool little cartoon also!  Too bad AFIADL 13 sucks so much!  It needs to be re-written to address issues such as this. 

The text is still there.... But the cartoon of the cadets and stool is absent from the most recent version.

[Eclipse]

Grade provides zero authority in CAP.

Zero.

The entirety of any authority comes from staff appointment.

In terms of courtesies, the shoulder always wins (i.e. Unit CC always salutes those in his command who are a higher grade).

[DNall]

Maybe not authority, but credibility, and that's just as important.

People wear multiple hats in the military in dif contexts as well. It is very possible for a staff officer to direct a course that their commander attends or instructs as a subordinate. That's not at all confusing. It is very clear that you follow the chain of the thing you are acting in at the time. Just like I can have employees of mine outrank me in CAP or vice versa, and that doesn't mean anything in CAP or at work.

[Eclipse]

Maybe not authority, but credibility, and that's just as important.

People wear multiple hats in the military in dif contexts as well. It is very possible for a staff officer to direct a course that their commander attends or instructs as a subordinate. That's not at all confusing. It is very clear that you follow the chain of the thing you are acting in at the time. Just like I can have employees of mine outrank me in CAP or vice versa, and that doesn't mean anything in CAP or at work.

Yes, but you're speaking of a situation where people are team players, know the bigger picture and aren't settling scores.

I think this was posed in the vein of the Lt. Col. who is passed over or doesn't like the 1st Lt. appointed as unit CC, and tries to shake his clusters around like they mean something in this context.

In my experience, this has also been a problem with recent, RealMilitary® officers who are new to the program.

In the RealMilitary®, officers are legally bound by their commission to take charge and execute leadership when things are going South - not so in CAP, but that can be a hard thing to "unlearn".

[mikeylikey]

In the RealMilitary®, officers are legally bound by their commission to take charge and execute leadership when things are going South - not so in CAP, but that can be a hard thing to "unlearn".

I expect every CAP volunteer to know when to politely "take charge" when stuff around them is going bad.  That would include telling another member to blow off if they are doing something wrong, inappropriate or outright insane.  I have seen what happens when no one steps up to the plate and takes charge when an idiot tries to run the show.

In no way am I supporting insubordination or mutiny.

[Eclipse]

In no way am I supporting insubordination or mutiny.

...a very thin line, and the subject of many arguments, fights, 2b's and hard feelings....

[ddelaney103]

Maybe not authority, but credibility, and that's just as important.

People wear multiple hats in the military in dif contexts as well. It is very possible for a staff officer to direct a course that their commander attends or instructs as a subordinate. That's not at all confusing. It is very clear that you follow the chain of the thing you are acting in at the time. Just like I can have employees of mine outrank me in CAP or vice versa, and that doesn't mean anything in CAP or at work.

It's a false credibility, however.  In the Real Military (TM), a Field Grade officer of any service will have had to jump through similar hoops.  The big exceptions are Chaplains, Lawyers and Doctors, but they're not "line officers" and their authority can get really fuzzy.

In CAP, there's no way of telling the level of experience of the officer.  If someone's the buddy of the Wing Commander, he could make his friend a Lt Col as soon as the membership paperwork clears - do not pass "GO," do not collect $200. (How?  Easy - appoint the person Wing Legislative Liaison Officer CAPR 35-3, Section C Para 14).  So, unless you get to see their ribbon rack, you can't tell if a Lt Col is former military, a heavy duty CAP veteran, or just a well connected greenhorn.

It will be very rare in the military for someone to have authority over a person of higher grade.  Most of the time it will be someone carrying out the orders of someone superior to both of them.  For example, an A1C SkyCop can't jack up a Col because he wants to, but because the CSAF issued orders (in the form of AFI's) that the A1C and the Col both must follow.

[Eclipse]

It will be very rare in the military for someone to have authority over a person of higher grade.  Most of the time it will be someone carrying out the orders of someone superior to both of them.  For example, an A1C SkyCop can't jack up a Col because he wants to, but because the CSAF issued orders (in the form of AFI's) that the A1C and the Col both must follow.

Its not that rare, especially in USAFR units with older, experienced aircrew and younger, maybe active duty commanders...

Otherwise, you're 100% right, and despite the fact that I value and appreciate the bling on the level it functions, I think for a lot of reasons, especially our ES mission, we'd all be better off with golf shirts and ICS vests instead of the grade structure.

[lordmonar]

Grade provides zero authority in CAP.

Zero.

The entirety of any authority comes from staff appointment.

In terms of courtesies, the shoulder always wins (i.e. Unit CC always salutes those in his command who are a higher grade).

I have to disagree with this one.  All things being equal....any one no job Capt by "tradition and custom" outranks any no job 1st Lt and below.  Custom and tradition are sources of unofficial authority....and you don't think there is no such thing as unofficial authority you have never had to kiss some A1C Finance Geek's butt to get your travel pay fixed.

[LTC_Gadget]

...or put up with schtuff from a Col's secretary or a Col's wife.. I've done a lot of grin-and-bear-it in twenty six years of working for a military organization on my real job.

Via CAP, I've been shoulder-to-shoulder with both AF and CAP general officers, and shared dinner, war stories and jokes with all of them in various contexts.  It's kinda tough to get excited by one attitudinal Colonel after you've been in a veritable rank pool...

As for rank over position, I'm a LtCol, and the squadron commander is a Capt.  To make it more interesting, he's also five years my junior, and he's my brother.  But, when we're on squadron-related business, he's still a 'sir.'  I did tell him not to let it go to his head, or to have too much fun with it...     Several years ago, I knew the brothers Lewis out of Castro Valley, CA., and worked with/for them on a couple of things.  I think they found themselves in a similar situation.  They lived through it.. 

V/R,

[mikeylikey]

....and you don't think there is no such thing as unofficial authority you have never had to kiss some A1C Finance Geek's butt to get your travel pay fixed.

HAHA....been sent to "the back of the line" by an E-1 for not waiting to sign a box in front of him on a form.  Had to refill a new form, and then wait twenty minutes so he could watch me sign my name.  I guess they just don't trust Officers these days!

...or put up with schtuff from a Col's secretary or a Col's wife.. I've done a lot of grin-and-bear-it in twenty six years of working for a military organization on my real job.

I had one bird who's wife thought when he made Colonel she did as well.  It was not uncommon for soldiers to be seen saluting her on post.  Not to mention the SGT who worked in the admin section and thought he was hot stuff because he worked for the Garrison Commander.  He routinely would be seen jumping to the front of lines in the PX and Commissary.  Some people are the type that uses the social status of others for their benefit.  Makes me sick sometimes.

[SarDragon]

I had the opportunity to watch the pharmacy line at the local dispensary some years ago. An O-4's wife was trying to bully her way to the front of the line and making a scene. All of a sudden, this other lady came from the back of the line and not so ploitely informed the O-4's wife that her place was at the end of the line, since it was first come, first serve. She then informed all within hearing that dependent wives had no special HOTL privileges, and that, BTW, she was the Admiral's wife and she claimed no special benefit from that status. She got a round of applause, as she returned to her own place in line.

[ColonelJack]

I had the opportunity to watch the pharmacy line at the local dispensary some years ago. An O-4's wife was trying to bully her way to the front of the line and making a scene. All of a sudden, this other lady came from the back of the line and not so ploitely informed the O-4's wife that her place was at the end of the line, since it was first come, first serve. She then informed all within hearing that dependent wives had no special HOTL privileges, and that, BTW, she was the Admiral's wife and she claimed no special benefit from that status. She got a round of applause, as she returned to her own place in line.

Funny story, that ... my aunt told me of a time when, as a new Navy wife (my late uncle retired as an E-6), she was in the Commissary (or whatever the Navy calls it) at Norfolk in the early '50s and some lady tried to bull her way to the front of the line, where my aunt was.  Turns out she was Admiral Byrd's wife, which impressed my aunt no end -- but didn't get her in line before her.  (My uncle was an E-2 at the time!)  Mrs. Byrd said, "We'll see about THIS!" and went back to the end of the line.  Later, at some on-base function or other, my uncle encountered the admiral and his wife, and aside, Admiral Byrd actually apologized to my uncle for the way his wife behaved!  Wow.

Jack

[mikeylikey]

I remember reading a particular staff study analysis about 10 years ago when I was ROTC.  I will give you the "Readers Digest Version". 

  During 1952 in Korea, a Company of Infantry Soldiers were on their way up hill 355, when they were attacked.  All of the Officers were killed except a brand new 2LT and half of the Company.  He immediately took charge and began a "smart" retreat back down the hill.  On his continuation down the hill a Colonel came up to him and stopped him in his tracks, he ordered the LT to turn around and lead his men back up the Hill.  The LT told the Colonel to go to hell, that he had no idea what he was doing.  The Colonel relieved the LT and led the men back up the hill.  The LT stayed behind and watched as only the Colonel and 2 other men came running back down the hill.  After a few days in the rear, The LT was shocked when he was charged with insubordination, failure to follow a lawful order, and a few others by the Colonel.  At the Courts-Martial, the Army found the LT not guilty on all charges, stating that the Colonel may have been a superior officer, but because he was Doctor, and had always been an Army Doctor, he really had no idea what he was doing and he was wrong to take charge of that infantry unit.  In fact, the LT had every right to not follow the Colonel up the hill. 

  In this instance Rank did not mean anything, Postion meant everything. 

On a side note, Army Officers at that time could easily be made out as far as what their jobs were.  They wore Branch Insignia (Infantry, Artillery, Aviation...etc.)  Today you can't tell what an Officer does in the Army when he or she is wearing ACU's.  It is a real shame!  It made life just a little easier sometimes.

[Eagle400]

Grade provides zero authority in CAP.

Zero.

The entirety of any authority comes from staff appointment.

Then maybe it's time for grade to correspond with position for every level of command, just like in the CG Auxiliary.  Any thoughts?