New to CAP - Question About Rank

[thefischNX01]

No backlash here. 

Sounds like a plan, as long as you'll have a few CAP uniforms for "just in case" scenerios.  The CAP Blues are not too bad, I'll admit that I prefer them to the BDU's, (but the Flightsuit is god as far as I'm concerned). 

Anyway...Welcome aboard!  (no wait, that's the Sea Cadets... )

[flyguy06]

Actually, CAP is a recruiting tool for the USAF andother services. Most Active duty recruiters kow and sale CAP to high school studentes when they talk. When I said you should wear the BDU's to set the example. I meant just that. The "same" unifrom the cadets wear. If you wear ACU's (or Army BDU's) you are NOT showing the cadets how to wear the approved CAP uniform correctly. The only time I wear an army uniform is at a banquet at the Wing Conference. Other than that, Iwear whet my cadets wear. I used to be a TAC Oficer at state OCS. I believe inteaching the Army Leadership Principles. number 5 is my favorite. Set the example. Idont know why your wing authorized you to wear ACU's. I thik you may have misinterpreted the meaning. When they say as long as you are on orders, they mean orders supporting CAP. If they meant any one on active duty, you would see a lot of active duty folks wearing ther uniforms and you just dont see that. If you are orders suporting CAP inthe couse of your military job you canwear your military uniform.FOr example, the USAF Liasion Officer. Thats their military job to support CAP, so they are allowed to wear the USAF uniform.

What you need to do is seperate the army and the military for that matter from CAP. CAP is "not" the militay (I cant belive I said that after my initial post onthis board). Do not equzte the two. We aree volunteers. Most people in CAP have never been in the military. Its only a small few. You said we put ourselves outto be second class because we dont require military members to salute our officers. Thats because our officers are not commissioned. They are volunteers. I really dont see a private saluting a hardware staore owner that chooses to be in CAP. We have a senior member who is a MAjor. He has never been in the ,military. He is a commercial pilot. He outranks me here. I dont always cal him siror salute him. In CAP. we dont neccessarily follow the same rules to the tee as in the military.Stop equating the two. Go onthe NAtional website and read up onCAP a little more. Goto a NAtional activity. That may give you more persepctive on CAP. Half the senior members dont even wear miliyary uniforms. They choose to wear the blue shirt and grey slacks but they stil hold the rank of Major and LT Col and so forth. They dont do it for uniforms or to be saluted. they do it to serve their country and their community. Take care

[Eclipse]

Twolf - As long as you get authorization from the Wing CC & your Army CC, you'll be covered from a liability standpoint if something bad happens.

I think I caught someone here saying "it hasn't been a problem so far..." well, that's how it works, you could show up in shorts and a t-shirt, and until someone calls yo on it, or you bend an airframe, there's no problem.  However, once something bad does happen, it'll be too late to start garnering the authorizations.

Your Army experience in leadership and discipline (as well as any specific technical skills) will be infinitely valuable to you fellow members, both Senior and cadet, however to equate CAP as a direct line to the military won't serve you as well.

wearing a different uniform calls attention to your difference in ways which may not be a productive as you think.

Yes, you are allowed to wear military ribbons on your CAP uniform, but that is not the point either.  Your CAP uniform is supposed to tell your CAP story to other CAP people, the same way your Army one does to fellow Guardsmen.  Your Army uniform speaks
volumes about your Army career and tells me nothing I need to know as a CAP member - not your experience in the organization, your accomplishments, or your likely qualifications - thus defeating the purpose of wearing it in the first place.

As to the saluting thing, as mentioned, we are appointed officers, versus commissioned, and are not bound by UCMJ.  Since we are "only" a paramilitary agency, there would be no way to require courtesies from other branches as is required of the other services, we as members, >ARE< required to render courtesies to all branches of the military,
AND EACH OTHER - it's not an option, and I don't agree with Flyboy's not thinking it's a big deal.

I spend a lot of time on an active Navy base, and regularly received salutes all over the base.  I don't stop them and explain the deal, I just return the courtesy and move on.

The RDC's are real tough on the recruits here in having them salute us for two reasons:

a)  They are taught to salute the grade and not necessarily the man.

b) Allowing a recruit, or really anyone else, to filter their saluting is dangerous -
Lord help them if they guess wrong!  Because of all the BRAC's, the base I'm on
has an increasingly diverse assortment of uniforms - and all the wear testing around
here isn't helping either (RDC's wearing red-cords over the new BDUs!  Bizarre!).

On he other hand, I have vigorously gig'ed CAP members who thought they were hot sit officers and dressed down a recruit or WORSE for not saluting.  If they throw one, cool, makes my day, if not, I don't think twice.  I'm more worried about skewing their world than mine.  These guys have bigger problems.

Lastly - of course CAP is a recruiter's dream - motivated young people who have already started to train in drill, uniform wear and other similiar diciplines?  If it wasn't, why would the Army and Air Force offer the extra stripe for Mitchell? 

And let's not forget all the schloaship opportunities, etc. 

[flyguy06]

Hey Eclipse,

I agree 100% of what you said. IThe only reason I say saluting is no big deal to me is becasue like you said we are not bound by UICMJ. You mayu have a CAP Lt Col that doesnt wear the militay uniform. He may choose to wear the civilain blue shirt and grey pants. Since we only salute people in uniform. I would not salute him.

Secondly, I am a "real" officer in the Army Guard. I am bound by UCMJ to salute and it is a curteousy that I earned. I greet those that outrank me and I give them the greeting of the day (Good Morning sir/ma'am). It gets confusing sometimes when you have this array of volunteers in your organization.

[Eclipse]

I believe if you read the regs, there is a note that even in civilian dress, if you are aware of a person's officer status, cap or otherwise, it is appropriate to salute.

Your example of the Lt. Col. in a golf shirt is the perfect sad example.  In my personal experience, many of these gentlemen are the least deserving of a salute, and the most peeved when they don't get it – regardless of their dress that day.

Another problem I have up this way is that just as a matter of "common" (or is it uncommon these days) courtesy I have gotten into a "bad" habit of calling everyone Sir, or Ma'am.

Makes me polite in the "real" world, and on occasions generates an embarrassed stare from the Chiefs if I drop one on them by accident in front of the recruits.  (whoops!)

[flyguy06]

And that is my point exactly. Iguess in my squadron, and I dont neccessarily agree with this, but the members in my unit dont take CAP as serioulsy as you guys or I do. They see it s a volunteer organiztion and they cancome and go as they please. Most of them are not military oriented and dont know much about saluting sothey dont do it. If the Wing Commander came into the room,  ( I kow cause this has happned) they just sit there and smile and say hello. Had I been inthe rom at the time, of course I would have called attention, but they would have just looked at me like "what?"My commander is a Vietnam vet but he is just a nice old man who doesnt take CAP for real either. I mean, in the military, if I dont salute, I get writtenup, but what areu gonna do to a senior member who doesnt salute? ANd theyknow this.If you threaten them, they will leave and not come back, and your membership goes down.

[Eclipse]

"They see it s a volunteer organization and they can come and go as they please..."

This may be the single biggest problem w/ CAP right now - you can find plenty of my ranting on this topic in other places.  Members who think this is a flying club, and then are mad when local ES or military resources won't take them seriously.  Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but you can’t have it both ways – from either a proficiency standpoint or respect.

"If you threaten them, they will leave and not come back, and your membership goes down..."

Oh if only this were true! To me, 10 active, professional, members are much more valuable than 60 empty flight suits.

If I'm repeating myself, I apologize, but I see our duel role as this:

We have some members who join the "Civil Air Patrol" - only interested in the
corporate side of the house in terms of uniforms and activities.

And others, like myself, who joined the "US Air Force Auxiliary", who are interested in the discipline and (in some cases) sacrifice of a more stringent paramilitary organization.

I have absolutely no issue with the CAP'ers. as long as they understand that, with the exception of their shirts not being as complicated, >ALL< the regs are the same, including courtesies.

My experience, unfortunately, has been that many of our members who are, frankly, just lazy ROMEOs, use “this just CAP" as an excuse for poor performance, appearance, and attitude.

Also, it's not that I necessarily take CAP more seriously than others (maybe), but more that I recognize that we all potentially carry the entire organization on our backs any time we interact with the public or the military.

I know we always get a pass from active resources with regards to courtesies and other issues, but the more we can speak their language, and live in "their world", the easier it is to get things done.

Conversely, we may not be bound by UCMJ or related common sense, but the more we act like we "own the joint" when trying to get things done, the less there may be for us to do as we will wear out our welcome quickly.

[Eclipse]

Also, it should be notes, but is sometimes lost, that while many of us disagree on nuances, the mere fact of taking the time to be involved in discussions here, and CAP Blog, and similar, probably puts you on the plus end of the "taking it seriously" scale.

[JaL5597]

If I'm repeating myself, I apologize, but I see our duel role as this:

We have some members who join the "Civil Air Patrol" - only interested in the
corporate side of the house in terms of uniforms and activities.

And others, like myself, who joined the "US Air Force Auxiliary", who are interested in the discipline and (in some cases) sacrifice of a more stringent paramilitary organization.

I have absolutely no issue with the CAP'ers. as long as they understand that, with the exception of their shirts not being as complicated, >ALL< the regs are the same, including courtesies.

My experience, unfortunately, has been that many of our members who are, frankly, just lazy ROMEOs, use "this just CAP" as an excuse for poor performance, appearance, and attitude.

Also, it's not that I necessarily take CAP more seriously than others (maybe), but more that I recognize that we all potentially carry the entire organization on our backs any time we interact with the public or the military.

I know we always get a pass from active resources with regards to courtesies and other issues, but the more we can speak their language, and live in "their world", the easier it is to get things done.

Conversely, we may not be bound by UCMJ or related common sense, but the more we act like we "own the joint" when trying to get things done, the less there may be for us to do as we will wear out our welcome quickly.

Umm?

How is their a distinction?  Don't we all belong to the same program?  Don't we all belong to the Civil Air Patrol which in 1948 was incorporated by Federal Law as the Air Force Auxilary?

Thats one of the things that really irks me.  This percieved line of distinction.  It really doesn't matter if your wearing Service Dress or CAP Greys.  Or BDUs or the Blue Field Uniform.  We all carry the same membership cards all serve the same chain of command.

Each member is going to have diffrent reasons for joining and participating.  I do not see where it even requires most members to wear a uniform on a regular basis.  The only people required to are those working with the cadets.  And since that is only one third of our mission, well people can figure that out.

Too many times I have run into people who see being in CAP as "military" and try to "act like the military" which means they act like total idiots.  I was reemed infront of the wing commander by a fellow member because I referred to my sister as well, my sister. 

Personally I think if we get the diffrent ideas of what CAP is and what people think it is (I refuse to call it The Air Force Auxilary) all back onto the same page, we can finally get people to take us seriously. 

The Civil Air Patrol predates the Air Force.  we should be prould of the history and traditions of the orginization.  While alot of people do not like the people who fail to follow all the militaryness, you need to remember these are the people who founded CAP in December 1941.  These are the people who flew little planes and managed to sink German U-Boats during World War 2.

[Eclipse]

As a matter of history, if you look at the photos of the guys dropping the bombs, you will see they are always in the Army "pinks". As this was a time of record patriotism and military pride, I seriously doubt there was much jaw-boning or complaining when these men, who for whatever reason were unable to serve overseas, were granted the privilege to serve in uniform in the states.

In WWII, uniformed service was viewed as almost literally “paying” for your freedom, and while the CD people checking blacked-out windows during air raid drills were certainly important, I guarantee you CAP was 2 notches higher on the cool scale, especially as an aviator.

I, in fact, have several members who have 50 & 60+ years of service, including at least one who was a WWII POW – you never have to remind >these guys< of the importance of proper uniform wear, it’s usually the gen-X’er, corporate mover / pilot types who “don’t have time for it”. 

And again, repeating myself -  buy the house you see, not the house it could be.

The Civil Air Patrol >IS< the auxiliary of the Air Force, without that distinction we’re just another youth group.

Without the military connection, there’s no planes, no money, and no mission.

[JaL5597]

Without the military connection, there's no planes, no money, and no mission.

Thats why all our aircraft have civil registeration and all of our vehicles are registered in the states.

You may call us the Air Force Auxilary all you want.  But we are the Civil Air Patol.  Which is Federally Chartered as the Auxilary of the Air Force.

We are a federally chartered nonprofit.  We happen to have ties with the Air Force, and they provide funding for missions that we perform at their discretion. 

But hey whatever.  Its all semantics.  And I will remember that when I show up in my civvies unshaven to my squadron.  Doesn't mean I am any less capable of doing any of the jobs assigned to me than someone who shows up in a tightly pressed uniform with spit shined shoes.

[PWK-GT]

Spell-check is your friend.

But hey whatever.  Its all semantics.  And I will remember that when I show up in my civvies unshaven to my squadron.  Doesn't mean I am any less capable of doing any of the jobs assigned to me than someone who shows up in a tightly pressed uniform with spit shined shoes.

Hopefully, you are not in the public eye with this attitude. We all have had different experiences with CAP, and I recognize that this is all VOLUNTARY, but you DID join the Air Force Auxilliary.......your motives and mileage may vary. The argument about standardized uniforms has been beaten to death in other threads, I don't expect it will ever be agreed upon by ALL members....too much non-standardized personal experience affects this topic..like are you in an ES-heavy unit, or a Cadet Programs-based smaller unit?
But my question is this: Why is there such resistance to a protocol (ie: military courtesy) that exists to lend some professionalism to our endeavours (not to mention in SOME units this greatly affects their ability to smoothly interact w/ other agencies--like during ES)? We may not all have the type of CAP jobs that benefit from simple courtesies, but how is going the 'extra mile' harmful to the individual or the Organization? I also have to wonder why people join CAP, as it exists, and then want to disregard policies as they see fit. Or is the 'volunteer' nature of this at the core of the problem?
Your thoughts are no less valid than mine--let me make that clear-- but I am trying to understand the rationale.

[flyguy06]

Eclipse,

You didnt read my message carefully. I DID NOT say that I dont take CAP seriously. Isaid members in my squadron dont take it seriously. Itake CAP very seriously. But you did say something that caused me concern. You said you are interested in dicsipline and sacrafice and a more stringent paramilitary organization. Well, my friend, then youshould have joined or stayed inthe military.

You also said people complain when they dont egt the ES resources. The members in my unit could care les about ES. None of them are involved in ES> I am the only one.

Like i said, I take CAP seriously. I am a GTM> former Mission scanner and observer. I joined CAP to encourage youth to be good leaders and to help out my comunity in times of disaster. Thats my motivation. It has nothing to do with wearing uniforms or pretty ribbons. I do that in the Army. I just need to find a way to motivate the rest of these guys. YOu are right. Iwould rather have 5 squared away members than 25 duds.

I think that in any non profit organization you have those that work and those that are just there to take the credit. I am in many 501(c)3 organizations and I see it all the time.  Its not just in CAP. We have to work around them. I also believe that Squadron Commanders need to be more empowered. Right now, the Wing Commandr is the lowest ranking corporate officer. But he cant be everywhre. If unit CC's had more power to decide the membership status of people and enforce the dress code, things would be better.

Hey guys, please forgive my typing. I am in Iraq and I pnly have 30 minutes to use the ineternet, so Itype fast and sometimes trip on my letters.

[groundpounder]

it's usually the gen-X'er, corporate mover / pilot types who "don't have time for it". 

Eclipse,

Not sure where you are going with this one?? What do you mean "Pilot types?" It seems to me that without the pilots we would not have much to do as the "eyes in the sky." 

[thefischNX01]

About the traditions of CAP...

I just finished reading the book "The Flying Minute Men: The Story of the Civil Air Patrol" which is regretfully out of print, but a good read if you can find it (try E-Bay)

In it, it describes how these weekend pilots were trained to be the military in every sense of the word.  Army Drill Instructors were brought in to teach them how to march, salute, stand at attention and such.  It wasn't an option, it was a requirement.  back then, the military aspect was as much a part of CAP as anything else today.  Arguably, back then it could be argued that CAP was a military.  The members were paid (albeit not a lot) and could be sent anywhere they were needed.  During the sub patrols, pilots from the midwest were ordered to the gulf and Atlantic coasts to provide support.  (granted, it probabaly wasn't as strict as the real military, but all the earmarks are there)
After reading this book, I'm tempted to agree that there needs to be more "Military" injected into CAP, if only because 65 years ago, it was a requirement. 

[JaL5597]

Spell-check is your friend.
Hopefully, you are not in the public eye with this attitude. We all have had different experiences with CAP, and I recognize that this is all VOLUNTARY, but you DID join the Air Force Auxilliary.......your motives and mileage may vary. The argument about standardized uniforms has been beaten to death in other threads, I don't expect it will ever be agreed upon by ALL members....too much non-standardized personal experience affects this topic..like are you in an ES-heavy unit, or a Cadet Programs-based smaller unit?
But my question is this: Why is there such resistance to a protocol (ie: military courtesy) that exists to lend some professionalism to our endeavours (not to mention in SOME units this greatly affects their ability to smoothly interact w/ other agencies--like during ES)? We may not all have the type of CAP jobs that benefit from simple courtesies, but how is going the 'extra mile' harmful to the individual or the Organization? I also have to wonder why people join CAP, as it exists, and then want to disregard policies as they see fit. Or is the 'volunteer' nature of this at the core of the problem?
Your thoughts are no less valid than mine--let me make that clear-- but I am trying to understand the rationale.

To begin with.  I was a member when everyone was allowed to wear the Air Foce Blues and woodland BDUs. 

Oh I am fully aware of the traditions and protocol of CAP.  I am assigned to a 001 squadron, aka wing staff.  As a member of the wing staff I am not obligated to wear a uniform most of the time.  I wear business attire due to a medical condition and my not wanting to spend money on more uniforms that would be worn maybe 3 times a month.

I am a former cadet and have been involved in Cadet Programs for many years.  Its funny.  It doesn't matter if I am wearing Blues, BDUs or civvies.  The cadets respect me and listen to what I have to say.

I spent 7 years at a squadron, leaving them as the Leadership Officer and Acting Deputy Commander for Cadets.  And if all goes accoring to the plans I will be leaving Wing Staff to join another squadron.  Do I wear a uniform every time I am up there?  Yup because that is what is required.  Alot of senior members don't and that is their choice.

Maybe its just the fact that over the last 9 years I have seen the people who just want to do their jobs and those who have the "False Military" ideals.  The "False Military" usually comes from those who never were in the service and do things the way they "know the military does it."  That has lead to some interesting scenes.  I got reemed at wing staff call for calling my sister, well, my sister.  I was at the Topoff 3 mission and got reemed for calling a CAP Major by his first name. 

There is alot of things that need to be fixed out there.  Has anyone every noticed that in many squadrons the cadets who are on the staff never allow the inflight cadets to graduate basic training?  Trust me.  Its there.

There are alot of issues that need to be fixed.  Creating a gap between the "We are a military orginization"  and "we are a corporation" isn't going to help us with our problems.  In a way we are both.  By saying one side or the other is bad isn't really gonna help.  When it comes down to it I really don't care if you are wearing the Air Force style or the CAP style, just as long as you can get your job done safely and effectively.

[Eclipse]

OK, I think we've just about beaten this to death, especially considering that it's getting off topic from Twolf's question, and venturing back to one of the "universal questions" of CAP.

But since I can't >not< stir the pot, a few last rebuttals (unless someone proposes a remedy for gravity, I won't be  in this anymore):

"As a member of the wing staff I am not obligated to wear a uniform most of the time..." DISAGREE: You have MORE obligation than Group or Unit staffers as you set the example.  Medical condition? Unless you're allergic to cotton blends, it won't kill you to pop for a $17 golf shirt.

" The cadets respect me and listen to what I have to say..."
That's assuming they speak to you, and what about the seniors - if my only contact w/ you is across an airfield or crowded room, no uniform to me means you're just another ROMEO  (old or not).

"What do you mean "Pilot types?" It seems to me that without the pilots we would not have much to do as the "eyes in the sky."

What I mean, is guys who think they are zipper-bagged sun gods who can do no wrong, and don't need little details like rules and regs to get in the way of a mission they have been doing for 10 years.  We need pilots, not "pilot types".

As to FLYGUY06, I'm not giving anybody any [mess] who is in the sandbox right now, but I would encourage you to find a new unit when you get home.  If you're the only one interested in ES, its not going to get better no matter what you do.

I did notice this, though,
“If unit CC's had more power to decide the membership status of people and enforce the dress code, things would be better…”

They have both – unit commanders can set UOD’s for events, and membership is a privilege, not a right.  Transfers are powerful tools, we should use them more. Set the tone and the expectations, and encourage members to step up – I was told early on members would vote w/ their feet if they didn’t like what I was doing.  THERE’S THE DOOR!  I’m still CC and we are SRO at meetings.

And my friend JaL5597, beating up the misinformed is so unfair, but you leave yourself open to it with the statements you make.

“That’s why all our aircraft have civil registration and all of our vehicles are registered in the states.

You may call us the Air Force Auxiliary all you want.  But we are the Civil Air Patrol.  Which is Federally Chartered as the Auxiliary of the Air Force.” (corrected)

Yes it is, and thank you for that bold restatement of the obvious.  The duality of our nature is a matter of the practicalities of insurance coverage, funding, and tax breaks for our members.
We are still basically a line-item of the USAF.  They pay for the planes, the radios, and the gas (among other things) – pull that and see what you have.

"And I will remember that when I show up in my civvies unshaven to my squadron.  Doesn't mean I am any less capable of doing any of the jobs assigned to me than someone who shows up in a tightly pressed uniform with spit shined shoes..."

You don't REALLY believe that do you? If so, there's no point in continuing this part of the discussion. Frankly, you don’t build much of a case for your opinion mattering anyway – 7+ years in  AND a former cadet and you have managed to rise to the exalted grade of 2Lt, with a position as DCP assistant?  Watch out for this fast mover!

“Creating a gap between the "We are a military organization"  and "we are a corporation" isn't going to help us with our problems.” (Corrected).

I’m not creating it – in fact I disdain it – there is no distinction, however some members want there to be, and use it as an excuse.

“I was at the Topoff 3 mission and got reamed for calling a CAP Major by his first name.”
(corrected)
Good – it says 2Lt by your name.  You may address me as “Capt. Williams” or “Sir”. I frankly don’t care what you call your sister, but if she has earned a higher grade and you are in public, “Ma’am” will do in a pinch.

[arajca]

   The position my Sq wants me to take is basically in charge of operations for our sq. Figuring out training schedules and fun, exciting things for the cadets to do and stuff like that. The senior member that had this position before me was a 1LT - so logic would tell me that I should go into the officer corps. But the thing is that I don't WANT to be an officer. I'm an NCO - Trainer of Soldiers and Maker of Men. I'm the type of person that wants to be down in the dirt right along side of my men, not behind a desk blindly making policies and plans. Secondly, I find it almost offensive for me to be an officer. I haven't earned that right so it would seem fake to me. So which rank should I go with? Should I stay in the NCO Corps or should I become a 2LT? What are the differences in the CAP?

The differences between officers and NCO's in CAP is NCO's cannot promote unless you get promoted in the military and different grade insignia.

   In addition to my responsibilities at my sq, I'd like to get involved in Wing activities. BCOC, EPS, and all that fun stuff. Will my status as an NCO prevent me from getting involved? Will it affect what I will be able to do?

No. It may effect you if you want to follow the professional development program and do not have time to go to Region or National Staff College
   

[Another thing of concern is the issue of respect. Will the cadets respect me any less as an NCO vs an officer? I know the cadets in my sq greatly respect me because...well... I'm me and they know me. But will the cadets at a wing events respect me the same? I feel as though the CAP puts so much on being an officer that they ignore the NCO corps. It feels like it's looked down upon, being an NCO. I myself respect a grizzly old E-7 MUCH more than I will ever respect a 2LT, but I don't get that same feeling in the CAP.

Since the only NCO's in CAP are current of former military members, and most cadets know that, you'll have a certain amount of notoriety because of it. Whether that translates into respect or not depends on how you carry yourself. Coming from another service, you need to keep in mind that CAP follows Air Force customs, not Army, Navy, or Marine. It will cost you respect to put forth the Army way over the Air Force way of doing things. BTST. The reason being an NCO may feel like being looked down at is because you are making an exception of yourself for no appearent (to most CAP members) reason.
   

As you can imagine, I have many more questions about CAP, which I will continue to ask in this forum. Thank you for your time and I greatly anticipate your responses.

Ask away. That's what these forums are for.

[dankaten]

The "I'm a Commander, and don't have time for my own development." Is a great way to find yourself out of a job when your term limit is over with nothing to show for your time but a certificate of appreciation.

As background, I am a unit CC, serve on Group staff, run an encampment, and am active enough in ES to have served in Katrina (HEY, I ROCK! >blech<).  As a leader, I can't take a "do as I say, not as I do attitude".  If professional development and progression is important for my members, it's important for me.  My laurels get no rest.

I am curious, when does that term limit happen. According to every regulation I have read and the people I have talked to there isn't a limit so please enlighten the rest of us. I am also sure that if I were to step down the people in my squadron would find someting else for me to do if I didn't do it on my own. So enlighten me in what job I would find my myself out of?

I to serve as a Squadron Commander and have not found time to work on my own development. I have not participated in an encampment. I did however volunteer to work at Katrina and I do not ROCK, I simply serve.
You might cut those who don't have all the free time, that you have, a little slack. It really doesn't make any difference what you do in CAP as long as you do it well. "Doing it well" includes wearing the uniform properly.
It is amazing to me that we are able to teach our Cadets anything with the things I have read on the posts concerning this topic. Especially when I have read the things that former Cadets have written. I am also astounded when I see fellow Officers preaching the stuff that is written here.
This whole post started with a young man asking a simple question about whether or not to keep his NCO rank or to accept an Officers ran in the CAP. I believe the answer to that question is simple, it is something that you will have to decide for yourself after looking at the regulations that the CAP has to offer. The Cadets will hopefully respect you as a person and not care too much about your "RANK".  If we as adults are teaching our Cadets that they should show respect based on "RANK" then I think we had all better get the hell out of the CAP.
Some of you are correct, getting 2LT doesn't take a lot to get and it isn't all that hard to get Captain. I was an officer in the Military and for that I was given a 1LT rank in the CAP. I have now been a Squadron Commander for over a year so they "GAVE" me Captain at my request. Did I earn the rank of Captain, you bet I did because I didn't have time to work on my own progression because I was doing what a Commander is suppose to do which is to lead and direct my Squadron. CAP does not have a command track which is neither here nor there but it does slow up the progression of a person in command if they are really taking their position to heart. I may be a Captain for a long time since I will not be stepping down from my command until such time as my squadron feels I need to. When I took command almost two years ago I did it at the request of a fellow military officer. The day I took command I told the entire squadron that I expected them to respect the position that I had taken even though I have Lt. Col. working for me. In that same speech I told them that I hoped in time that I would earn their respect as a person.
Any any military organization there will be people who wear rank who do not deserve the respect of others but you show respect for the rank, not the person. We should all strive to earn the respect that goes along with the rank.
As for military people wearing their military uniform during CAP activities, you are wrong. You can wear a military uniform while participating in a military activity. CAP is not a military activity. Yes you can get orders cut that allow you to wear the uniform since you are a recruiter because you are supporting the CAP but is that really what you are doing. It sounds more like someone wants to stand out so the cadets will oooohhh and awww about this different uniform. I recently had an 20 year old senior member who kept showing up in an ROTC uniform. He would sometimes show up on BDU night in class A's and do stuff like wear white gloves. It definitely set him apart from the rest and the Cadets would always run up to him and ask him questions about what the different ribbons were all about. He sure loved it. Come to find out he wasn't in the ROTC. Probably had never been and probably never will be. He just needs to get over himself because he is a very nice young man who can be a lot of help when he tries. As the man said "that is what uniform is all about". If you just have to stand out continue to wear the military uniform but you should wear only the dress uniform.
I personally think the biggest problem that CAP has is all of the people who join that are in it for what they can get out of it. CAP isn't about what will I look like, or what uniform will I get to wear, or how high in the rank structure can I go, or what do I need to do to make myself look good, it is a volunteer organization that helps to support civilization. Yes we are the Air Force Auxiliary so we should at least make an attempt to follow a little protocol but lets not let the protocol interfere with the mission.

[JaL5597]

And my friend JaL5597, beating up the misinformed is so unfair, but you leave yourself open to it with the statements you make.

"That's why all our aircraft have civil registration and all of our vehicles are registered in the states.

You may call us the Air Force Auxiliary all you want.  But we are the Civil Air Patrol.  Which is Federally Chartered as the Auxiliary of the Air Force." (corrected)

Yes it is, and thank you for that bold restatement of the obvious.  The duality of our nature is a matter of the practicalities of insurance coverage, funding, and tax breaks for our members.
We are still basically a line-item of the USAF.  They pay for the planes, the radios, and the gas (among other things) – pull that and see what you have.

"And I will remember that when I show up in my civvies unshaven to my squadron.  Doesn't mean I am any less capable of doing any of the jobs assigned to me than someone who shows up in a tightly pressed uniform with spit shined shoes..."

You don't REALLY believe that do you? If so, there's no point in continuing this part of the discussion. Frankly, you don't build much of a case for your opinion mattering anyway – 7+ years in  AND a former cadet and you have managed to rise to the exalted grade of 2Lt, with a position as DCP assistant?  Watch out for this fast mover!

"Creating a gap between the "We are a military organization"  and "we are a corporation" isn't going to help us with our problems." (Corrected).

I'm not creating it – in fact I disdain it – there is no distinction, however some members want there to be, and use it as an excuse.

"I was at the Topoff 3 mission and got reamed for calling a CAP Major by his first name."
(corrected)
Good – it says 2Lt by your name.  You may address me as "Capt. Williams" or "Sir". I frankly don't care what you call your sister, but if she has earned a higher grade and you are in public, "Ma'am" will do in a pinch.

Well there SIR  I do thank you for that little tirade.  Of course the whole praise in public correct in private means nothing.

Your right.  Eight years as a senior member and only being a butter bar seems weird.  But then I also have been in the Flight Officer grades and am going to college.  Oh yeah, there is also the little fact of having been improperly promoted to 1st Lt and letting that sit untill there was a review of the records and having had that get yanked.